Webb cut

[NorthHawk]

They finally cut the cord with him.
On another note, Bishop Sankey was released by KC. Might he be worth a stop gap look?

[HumanCockroach]

Yep. I posted it in the Jahri Evans thread as I didn't believe the man deserved his own thread. IMHO he might be the worst lineman I've ever seen play. I honestly don't understand how the guy made the team, and I don't think he would have recurved playing time in the David Carr Houston team. He's that bad. How a man that big can be equally atrocious both run blocking AND pass blocking ( not to mention on FG attempted, yeah you can thank him for the tie... If you don't believe me, rewatch the Cards game and focus in on the LG on kicks... One Jamarcus Webb getting steamrolled)..

http://www.seahawks.com/news/2016/11/22 ... arcus-webb

I know some ( really one) believed he was a viable lineman that Seattle wouldn't eat the money on, but he literally was unusable... Note Sowell goes down, they don't shift Gilliam, and insert Webb, they don't just insert Webb, they instead insert a rookie in EVERY sense of the word, they felt BETTER about playing a guy who hasn't played any significant football since Jr. High, in essence, they felt better about someone with ZERO experience, over a former first round pick.

I would be down with Sankey, the guy has always run hard, and he definitely cannot be worse than Collins, unless I suppose he averaged less than a yard per carry, and fumbles more regularly, kind of doubt it though.

[RiverDog]

Boy, our brain trust sure is hit-or-miss with regards to offensive linemen. Webb was a bust almost from the day he reported to camp.

As far as Bishop Sankey goes, I only saw him play in college at UW. I liked him then as the impression I had is that he was a hard runner and was a good receiver out of the backfield. With Prosise injured and Michael cut, we're going to need someone to step in and fill the void.

[Hawkstar]

I'm surprised Sankey has bounced around like he has. (Titans, Patriots, Chiefs) Looks like his career is similar to the guy we just released. A Second round pick that seems to have all the measurables but apparently cant put it together to stick at the NFL level. I dont recall hearing anything negative about his attitude during his days at the U.

I'm all giving him a shot - perhaps we'll see the urgency that CM showed for a few weeks.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Boy, our brain trust sure is hit-or-miss with regards to offensive linemen. Webb was a bust almost from the day he reported to camp.

As far as Bishop Sankey goes, I only saw him play in college at UW. I liked him then as the impression I had is that he was a hard runner and was a good receiver out of the backfield. With Prosise injured and Michael cut, we're going to need someone to step in and fill the void.

They knew what they were getting with him, but hey just another reason for some fans to continue to blast them on how they build the oline. It was a low-cost move to add a veteran to the kid who might contribute. I'd be more worried if they broke the bank on a lineman that didn't work out.

[NorthHawk]

According to Spotrac, his Dead Cap hit is 2.43750 million this year, so he wasn't that cheap.

[RiverDog]

They knew what they were getting with him, but hey just another reason for some fans to continue to blast them on how they build the oline. It was a low-cost move to add a veteran to the kid who might contribute. I'd be more worried if they broke the bank on a lineman that didn't work out.

The original plan when they brought Webb in was to move Gilliam to LT and pencil Webb in at RT, then they tried to use him inside at guard, but nothing worked out. I can't remember the last time we acquired an offensive lineman, either through the draft or via free agency, that we thought was worth a second contract. So either we aren't doing a good job of identifying talent, we aren't doing a good job of developing talent, or we have higher priorities for the type of money it would take to resign the talent we successfully identify and/or develop. That's not blasting our FO, it's just looking at the situation factually.

[NorthHawk]

With a Defensive minded HC, we're going to get more attention on that side.
Remember with Holmgren when many of us were complaining about not enough attention to the Defense?
How many years did they seemingly ignore the MLB position or at least not be able to upgrade it?
Now it's reversed and the OL is the area where we lack a strong presence.

[HumanCockroach]

I often wonder why so many here are hung up on $$$ instead of performance. Was Sherman garbage before getting paid? ET? Wagner? Wilson? Baldwin? Nope.

Truth is, to get paid like an elite player in Seattle, you have to PLAY like an elite player in Seattle. This has been their premises from the beginning, whether it be offensive line, WR, DB, RB, TE, LB, name any position. It's amazing that people believe they won't pay an elite lineman, elite money.

They have cut their highest paid receiver, an all pro LB, FA acquisition that they paid big guaranteed money to, a WR with millions of dollars guaranteed money for years to come summarily traded for a seventh round pick, etc.....

Fascinating that people can't see that pattern, STILL all these years into it..... I HAVE to ask, how many "ELITE" offensive line players had Seattle refused to pay have there been? Which Walter Jones type player have they missed on? The answer to that question is zero, zero elite lineman, not a one, yet many here still for some reason believe there's a glut of them walking the streets, and lurking at the end of the first round ( scratch that, ANYWHERE in any draft).

Seattle will pay elite money, for elite play, to date there hasn't been elite play, so no elite money. It isn't super difficult to grasp or understand.

[NorthHawk]

Fascinating that people can't see that pattern, STILL all these years into it..... I HAVE to ask, how many "ELITE" offensive line players had Seattle refused to pay have there been? Which Walter Jones type player have they missed on? The answer to that question is zero, zero elite lineman, not a one, yet many here still for some reason believe there's a glut of them walking the streets, and lurking at the end of the first round ( scratch that, ANYWHERE in any draft).

I think that's the point people are making.
In almost 6 years we haven't yet found one player on the OL worth a 2nd contract. Ifedi might be an exception - and maybe Britt, but to date we haven't seen them sign or draft anyone on the OL worth keeping. Other teams have found at least one All Pro and/or Pro Bowl players, but we haven't. Hell, even Cleveland had a couple and they are the sad sack of the NFL.

[HumanCockroach]

Yep, Cleveland, who leads the league in QB hits, and sacks the last three years, has two all pro, pro bowl players that they over paid to keep, doesn't seem to be working out to well for them. Maybe ask the six different QBs who have missed time due to that lines play how they feel about it...

You're really not making a case here, in fact you're solidifying the point. Paying out the wazzu for slightly better play than a first or second year player at a third of the cost does nothing but keep your franchise from winning, competing and it doesn't significantly increase the chances of success. Add in the fact that a team like Cleveland continues to pick in the top ten EVERY year, and somehow STILL flounders on the offensive line only STRENGTHENS the position that there isn't some glut of elite offensive lineman wandering around, ripe for the taking, deserving of some obscene contact....

Let's be clear here as well. Cleveland has two pro bowl/ all pro calibre players in their line, both drafted over 9 years ago, that is quite a bit longer than Carroll/ Schneider have been around......

Also, just so we're in the same page, was Guacomini, Carpenter, Sweezy etc WORTH the insane amount of money they received in their second contract with other teams? We're they ELITE lineman? Because they are being paid like they were. I don't remember anyone claiming their eliteness when they were IN Seattle, which goes to show how DESPERATE teams are for NFL caliber lineman..... Again, blows up the theory of "Seahawks can't evaluate or develop offensive line talent" they can, and they do, year after year after year, this year they took a GIANT leap forward, should they have instead paid Okung and Sweezy the insane amount if money to keep them? And they Should have cut whom to do so?

[NorthHawk]

You're missing the point. Cleveland found Pro Bowl players that you say don't exist. We haven't with the exception of Okung who we let go.
We can't revamp our OL every year and expect to be champions.
To win a SB, all phases of the team have to work well including the Offensive Line.
The only way for them to get better is to play a lot of games together so replacing 2 or 3 or more of the 5 players every year and shuffling the deck with the others cannot work.

Edit:
Giacomini has a salary average of 4.5 million and Carpenter is at 4.75 million so they aren't outrageous salaries in today's game. Sweezy was an average at best player who got a big payday.

[RiverDog]

With a Defensive minded HC, we're going to get more attention on that side.
Remember with Holmgren when many of us were complaining about not enough attention to the Defense?
How many years did they seemingly ignore the MLB position or at least not be able to upgrade it?
Now it's reversed and the OL is the area where we lack a strong presence.

I'm not complaining. We're winning, and that's all I care about. I was simply stating a fact. This brain trusts long suit is not rooted in the offensive line.

[Hawktawk]

The line is improving. They played well the last two and gave up one sack vs a tough eagles D.
George Fant could wind up being as big a steal as Wilson, Baldwin, Sherman, not to mention an amazing story.
Good LTs are worth their weight in gold. I think this line may wind up being the best of Carrolls tenure. And a healthy Wilson makes it even better.

[NorthHawk]

Yeah, this line has the potential to be one of the best in the Carroll era. If they keep them together for a few years.
Like I said in an earlier thread, their commitment to developing a good OL will be tested next year when Britt is up for renewal.

[monkey]

Sure in six years they haven't landed the next Walter Jones. They've also managed to be a playoff team, keep costs down, retain superstars all over the team, and still put together a young line that is getting better every week, and looks pretty good heading into the future.
For the life of me I cannot understand all the whining.
If we were losing with this strategy, I would be first in line to point it out, (people used to rip me for being "too negative" remember?), But the strategy is working to near perfection... All the complaining is pointless.
In this salary cap era you cannot have a team with no weaknesses, it's simply impossible, but the Seahawks, have figured out how to mitigate that as much as possible.

[NorthHawk]

I don't care what the won last year or the year before. That time has passed and just making the playoffs isn't good enough with this team.

The goal is to win the Super Bowl.
How many teams have won with a bad (or ineffective) Offensive line?
I don't know the stats, but I would think it would be a small percentage.
Keeping the OL together is a big component of consistency.
It just takes time for the OL to work well together and constant large yearly changes is an impediment to that consistency.

What we have now is Britt who it seems has found a home at Center and Ifedi looks like he could be the real deal at RT.
Those are 2 players they can build around. Glowinski might become a solid LG, but right now he struggles at times.
Fant has improved incredibly from the pre-season.

So there is hope for this unit, but will they commit to keep the interior together for a few years is the question.
It would be good for the unit to start the year from TC with at least the interior solidified.
Those early reps together are most important for a good start.

[c_hawkbob]

Sure in six years they haven't landed the next Walter Jones..

It ain't just us, the whole NFL has failed to land the next Walter Jones.

[HumanCockroach]

I don't care what the won last year or the year before. That time has passed and just making the playoffs isn't good enough with this team.

The goal is to win the Super Bowl.
How many teams have won with a bad (or ineffective) Offensive line?
I don't know the stats, but I would think it would be a small percentage.
Keeping the OL together is a big component of consistency.
It just takes time for the OL to work well together and constant large yearly changes is an impediment to that consistency.

What we have now is Britt who it seems has found a home at Center and Ifedi looks like he could be the real deal at RT.
Those are 2 players they can build around. Glowinski might become a solid LG, but right now he struggles at times.
Fant has improved incredibly from the pre-season.

So there is hope for this unit, but will they commit to keep the interior together for a few years is the question.
It would be good for the unit to start the year from TC with at least the interior solidified.
Those early reps together are most important for a good start.

Maybe you missed two of the last three SBs?

As for how many teams have won with an ineffective line, I suppose it depends on your definition of what that is. IMHO you have to go all the way back to February to find one.

[monkey]

[quote="c_hawkbob

It ain't just us, the whole NFL has failed to land the next Walter Jones.[/quote] you got that right.
What's more, aside from Dallas, most teams today, including legitimate playoffs teams, have o lines every bit as garbage as ours. In fact, is guess by years end, ours will be considered middle of the pack.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

All I am saying is they thought it was possible Webb could become a starter; the way they drafted suggst d they did not have all their eggs in one basket. The fact that the guys they have now are showing their chops shows they can scout and develop talent. They paid the vet price tag in the hopes he'd be steady enough to start; did not work out so they moved on. As HC Pointed out, Giac, Carp, and Sweezy got nice contracts elsewhere; the Seahawks must have some ability if other teams see those guys as starters. The Webb signing and release does not show ineptitude; definitely agree they've set a limit on what they'll spend on the o-line.

[Jjones84]

Boy, our brain trust sure is hit-or-miss with regards to offensive linemen. Webb was a bust almost from the day he reported to camp.

As far as Bishop Sankey goes, I only saw him play in college at UW. I liked him then as the impression I had is that he was a hard runner and was a good receiver out of the backfield. With Prosise injured and Michael cut, we're going to need someone to step in and fill the void.

I think he was just a fairly cheap insurance policy. I think I read where they only have to pay him 1.5 mil this season, then they are off the hook for next year. It was a gamble, but there just aren't very many even decent linemen for that price. This is the best possible outcome, though. The rookies are performing better than expected, making him expendable. Don't really see what the issue is with this. There is an obvious lack of talent league wide on the o line.

[RiverDog]

I think he was just a fairly cheap insurance policy. I think I read where they only have to pay him 1.5 mil this season, then they are off the hook for next year. It was a gamble, but there just aren't very many even decent linemen for that price. This is the best possible outcome, though. The rookies are performing better than expected, making him expendable. Don't really see what the issue is with this. There is an obvious lack of talent league wide on the o line.

The issue isn't just that we missed on Webb. If that were the lone miss, then I could more easily understand it. And I agree with you about the lack of OL talent the past couple of years. There does seem to be a number of playoff quality teams with OL problems similar to our own.

The problem is that ever since Pete's arrival 6 years ago, we have NOT HAD ONE offensive lineman that our FO felt was good enough to deserve a 2nd contract. Someone has to be responsible for this, it isn't just a league wide fluke of a situation. Either we're not identifying good OL talent, we are not developing OL talent, or we don't have the will to establish at least one or two core players around which to build.

Is there another NFL team that has not resigned at least one of their OL's in the past 6 years?

Once again, I'm not complaining or criticizing. We've been wildly successful with our philosophy. I'm just say'in.

[HumanCockroach]

You keep saying that, but it isn't true. I'll point Unger out yet again.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Unger also happened to be the lone lineman from Seattle to garner an all pro nod? They will pay elite money, for elite lineman.

[RiverDog]

You keep saying that, but it isn't true. I'll point Unger out yet again.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Unger also happened to be the lone lineman from Seattle to garner an all pro nod? They will pay elite money, for elite lineman.

If you want to use Unger, who was drafted by the previous regime then traded without a viable plan other than "next man up" to replace him as your counter to my argument, then go ahead. It's a huge reach and doesn't disprove my main point.

[HumanCockroach]

Lol... Sure it doesn't. Whatever floats your boat.

[savvyman]

How bad was he? He could not beat out the group of players out there today.

Still I have no Issues with John & Pete on Webb - they did the best with the amount of money they had - very little - with what was out there.

[RiverDog]

Russell was sacked 6 times yesterday, and he was as mobile as he's been all season. Except for Russell's scrambling and keeping off the read option, our rushing game was non existent. We were 0-10 on third downs until late in the 4th quarter and we didn't score a touchdown for the third time this season. All of that against the #22 ranked rushing defense and the #30 ranked passing defense.

That was as sorry of an OL performance as we've put out all season, and we've turned in some real stinkers against teams like the Saints, Rams, and Cards. Sorry, guys, but this OL is not very good, and please, don't tell me about other team's OL woes, the fact that Britt was out, or that we started 3 rookies for the first time in franchise history (that right there tells us of our FO's commitment to the OL).

This OL is not starting to gel, as seems to be the buzz word phrase. It is our Achilles heal and if we don't go very far in the playoffs, it will be because of this unit. This is not a "drastically" improved unit over last year's edition, which by this time last season, was playing relatively decent. I don't see a great deal of difference between this year's unit and last year's.

Sorry for the rant. Hopefully we can get Britt back and they can play better against the Panthers. You never know what to expect out of this unit.

[HumanCockroach]

Interesting that people expect perfection every game... I don't remember any rants after the Philly game, none after the Pats game, Jets, Niners etc, etc.... People really should learn to grasp, that NO unit, NO player every is perfect every game. They ALL have bad games. SMDH.

Funny thing is, I felt this game coming, and referenced that people would have a knee jerk reaction calling the line garbage just last week. LMFAO at least that is always consistent in Seattle.

[obiken]

Interesting that people expect perfection every game... I don't remember any rants after the Philly game, none after the Pats game, Jets, Niners etc, etc.... People really should learn to grasp, that NO unit, NO player every is perfect every game. They ALL have bad games. SMDH.

Funny thing is, I felt this game coming, and referenced that people would have a knee jerk reaction calling the line garbage just last week. LMFAO at least that is always consistent in Seattle.

No one is saying that Huey, I think this team will go as far as this OL will allow us, not take us. Its going to have bad games; if it works, it changes the landscape of the NFL, if not it will put our star QB in the hospital. There is no knee jerk from me after beating the Pats in NE.

[RiverDog]

Interesting that people expect perfection every game... I don't remember any rants after the Philly game, none after the Pats game, Jets, Niners etc, etc.... People really should learn to grasp, that NO unit, NO player every is perfect every game. They ALL have bad games. SMDH.

Funny thing is, I felt this game coming, and referenced that people would have a knee jerk reaction calling the line garbage just last week. LMFAO at least that is always consistent in Seattle.

It's pretty simple: The reason you didn't hear any rants after those games is because we won.

Take a look at our 4 non winning efforts: In three of them, we didn't score a single offensive touchdown and in the other we scored just one, and that was set up by a gadget play. The root cause of those efforts: The offensive line.

We are not a great team and our chances of winning another Lombardi are not nearly as good as they were a couple years ago when we had at least an adequate OL. This OL is inadequate as they are usually out manned and have performed very inconsistently, even against suspect defenses such as the Saints and the Bucs.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think they are inadequate, rather they are inconsistent which is a sign of a young group. They are also very thin regarding quality depth.
Some playing time for Hunt might work out well in the long term although he was overwhelmed
What burns my butt is they thought they could rebuild the OL while in the middle of a championship window. Big gamble.
It could be that this year will be lost because of this experiment, but it may still work out if everyone gets and stays healthy.

[HumanCockroach]

by NorthHawk » Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:23 pm
I don't think they are inadequate, rather they are inconsistent which is a sign of a young group

At least someone grasps how football works. ( And yes that includes the BEST lines in the league. Bad games occur for Every line in the league, the trick is to mitigate them, Seattle despite claims to the contrary, have had 3 out of 11 below adequate games or less than 30℅. There's about 29 or so teams in the NFL that would jump at the chance for a young developing line doing that).

The assertion that the line is the sole reason the Seahawks have lost games is silly, and is simply looking for the easiest excuse. I look at the entire game, every game, the good and the bad, I don't jump to my preferred crutch to explain it, nor do I absolve my favorite players from their responsibilities to blame a single group or player that I personally have an issue with, ESPECIALLY one because the "experts" told me. In essence, I use my experience, and my brain to figure out what happened, it's pretty cool, some should try it.

[Hawktawk]

I completely agree with inconsistent. At times they have looked dominant frankly. They controlled the game against Philly and allowed Russ the time to have his best regular season game at Foxboro.
This game was one of those very rare instances when Seattle read their press clippings IMO, every unit.
They hit a buzz saw that has won 5 of 7 and surrendered an average of 10.7 points its last 3 games.
I'm happy for Alterraun Verner playing like that days after his dad passed even though it came at our expense. Something spurred that defense and that kid was lights out.

I think Britt is a future all pro center.Fant had played so well JS and PC were gaining the genius label. Glowinski is nasty.Ifedi is a keeper. Other than right tackle the players are there.

I like these guys. They were just horrible yesterday. Nothing more and nothing less.

[RiverDog]

The assertion that the line is the sole reason the Seahawks have lost games is silly

Just curious: Do you know the difference between root cause and sole reason? Let me know when you're done with your Google.

[HumanCockroach]

Interestingly enough I do, the question of whether you do RD remains to be seen, considering you reference the offensive line as the sole cause in EVERY loss, but refuse to acknowledge good to excellent performances week in and week out. Can't acknowledge improved pass protection, and have indeed resorted to claiming the FO doesn't care, can't evaluate, refuses to pay for decent lineman ( despite those lineman they refuse to pay being players you personally trashed) and dwell on the lines play, blaming them for EVERY mistake possible, regardless of whether it was a poor decision, accumulated hits ( or worse perceived accumulated hits), missed throws, poor routes or even, I know this is going to sound crazy to you, actual good defensive play by an opponent.

Truth is, you're never going to be happy, unless you can bash the line. The Seahawks win, the line plays well it's either "look who they played" or "look what the did in the loss to team X".... You are what you are, but you can skip attempting to play it off like you're being realistic, and I'm clueless. It doesn't wash. I WARNED people about this week, told you about the lines apparent struggles that were coming, I wonder, is that do to rose colored glasses? Or could it possibly be I know what the F I'm talking about, understand talent levels, am realistic about match ups, injuries, and experience? Crazy huh?

I must be psychic to have known last Tuesday that you would be on here moaning about the line again, or maybe, just maybe, I knew they would struggle, and you would have a knee jerk reaction to it ( like you have done after EVERY loss the last three years).... I'm going with the latter, but feel free to believe it comes to me with fairy dust and magic unicorns.