Bennett's Offsides Penalties

[RiverDog]

Last Sunday in the first quarter, I could clearly see Michael Bennett lining up offsides. He wasn't offsides by a fraction, he had to have been offsides by a foot or more for it to be able to be seen so clearly on TV even without the TV imposed LOS line. And it's not the first time it's happened. I was at a game in Arizona several years ago when Bennett lined up offsides twice on successive plays.

I can understand the plays where he is induced by a good hard count (Aaron Rodgers) to jump offsides. But what I can't understand is why an otherwise very intelligent and heady ball player can commit such bone headed penalties as he's been subject to.

Can somebody please explain?

[HumanCockroach]

It isn't unique to Bennett. It happens across the league, often times being completely ignored. Can't tell you how many hundreds of times I've watched D tackles ( as opposed to a DE who is further from the ball) line up with helmet and hands beyond the ball with it right in front of them.

Ultimately, Bennett lines up based on how the offensive line does ( ie 1 yard off the tackle). If the tackle is deeper than is legal ( which happens an obscene amount of times) Bennett typically also lines up illegally ( ie offsides). More often than not officials ignore both infractions, but Bennett has a reputation, as such, they throw a flag.

[obiken]

Last Sunday in the first quarter, I could clearly see Michael Bennett lining up offsides. He wasn't offsides by a fraction, he had to have been offsides by a foot or more for it to be able to be seen so clearly on TV even without the TV imposed LOS line. And it's not the first time it's happened. I was at a game in Arizona several years ago when Bennett lined up offsides twice on successive plays.

I can understand the plays where he is induced by a good hard count (Aaron Rodgers) to jump offsides. But what I can't understand is why an otherwise very intelligent and heady ball player can commit such bone headed penalties as he's been subject to.

Can somebody please explain?

There is none River, its a flaw in his game, period.

[RiverDog]

It isn't unique to Bennett. It happens across the league, often times being completely ignored. Can't tell you how many hundreds of times I've watched D tackles ( as opposed to a DE who is further from the ball) line up with helmet and hands beyond the ball with it right in front of them.

Ultimately, Bennett lines up based on how the offensive line does ( ie 1 yard off the tackle). If the tackle is deeper than is legal ( which happens an obscene amount of times) Bennett typically also lines up illegally ( ie offsides). More often than not officials ignore both infractions, but Bennett has a reputation, as such, they throw a flag.

I'm not going to buy all that, HC. Linemen can make one quick glance toward the ball to verify if they're lined up onsides, and you see most of them doing just that. It's not that hard. And that call Sunday night wasn't made by some ref with a bias. Bennett was way, way offsides. I still don't understand how he can line up offsides as much as he does. It's such a simple thing.

Bennett's propensity to draw offsides penalties is his only weakness. How many times did Rodgers entice him to jump last year?

[c_hawkbob]

On one hand you're saying you're not gonna buy that it happens all the time (it does, buy it or not) and on the other you're saying you don't understand how it can happen so much ... it looks to me as though there is not much that can be said to satisfy your issue with it, but I'm gonna try.

- Offensive linemen have a regimented procedure leading up to the snap of the ball: break the huddle, walk to the line as a unit, get set in stance, go at the snap count. It's all designed to look the same every time it happens so as not to give any clues to the defense.

- Defensive linemen are the opposite: they move around, jump from gap to gap, flinch and growl and talk smack to the guy across from them to try to either force a mistake or get them to give away a clue as to the upcoming play.

- O-linemen try to remain stoic because they know that their opponent reads even the smallest of tells (depth of set, weight forward over the hands (whiter knuckles) indicating that they're readying to explode forward of their stance to run block, or back on their haunches indicating readiness to backpedal in pass blocking or even an almost imperceptible lean to one side or the other.

- D-linemen are typically a more aggressive sort of individual whose focus is on the upcoming battle that the snap of the ball will bring about, not about the niceties leading up to that battle and with everything else they have going on in their heads it's easy for a thing like lining up offsides to happen. Coaches don't freak out over it (unless it happens all the time) because they don't want to dampen that level of aggression.

It truly just "is what it is". I'm not justifying it, I just accept it.

[Jjones84]

It's all about perspective. I don't know if any of you have lined up on the line, but it isn't nearly as easy to tell where you are lined up with your hand in the dirt as it is from a wide angle where you can look straight down the line. Your eyes aren't in the top of your head, so you can't see where the crown of your helmet is. With the emotion of the game, anticipation of the next play and trying to get a competitive edge, it can happen. I did it, well, got flagged a few times in the seven years I played.

Having said that, it is getting a little ridiculous at this point, lol. That's something that can only happen a few times, then you gotta realize it is a hindrance to what you and your teammates are trying to accomplish. Kind of selfish to allow it to continue.

I remember laughing, and thinking "well Bennett's back" the first game back and early in the game when got the offsides call.

But really, it is in his style. He is an aggressive player, and will probably continue this for years. At least he is one of the most destructive forces in the NFL. I'm glad he is back.

[burrrton]

It's all about perspective. I don't know if any of you have lined up on the line, but it isn't nearly as easy to tell where you are lined up with your hand in the dirt as it is from a wide angle where you can look straight down the line.

It's certainly easier from that angle, but there are hash marks for a reason- you see where the ball is and verify you're behind it. No other D-lineman struggles like Bennett does.

I get that it's 'part of his game', but it shouldn't be- it's not like he's jumping around and throwing his hand down at the last second and ending up over the line a bit (at least not every time). The other night for example, he was so far offside for so long that my cousin watching the game with me went "Uh oh- Bennett's offsides" before the ball was snapped (I happened to be looking at my phone at that moment).

It's an unforced error that MB should fix- brainfarts like that aren't gaining him anything.

[Hawktawk]

Bennett has too many offsides,period. MOF in SB 49 Brady was preparing to take the final snap from the 1/2 yard line with 20 seconds to play, a potential safety or turnover situation until Bennett jumped and gave him the opportunity to line up in the victory formation.

People forget all about that play.

But on the other hand as Belichick said on sound FX in the second half of that game "72 is the only one doing anything".
As for lining up offsides I watch guys from all the teams do it, especially when the Tackles are a yard off the line and pulling a fraction early to boot.
Its up to the refs to clean it up but be consistent. Either it is a foul or it isnt.
Bennett is Bennett. Ill take the great with the bad

[NorthHawk]

A lot of the best players play on the edge of the rules.
The lining up offside is something that's frustrating for us fans, but being as close to the line as possible gives Bennett with his quickness a slight advantage at the snap.
He may get penalties more often than others, but he also creates havoc in the backfield more often than others.
It's part of his game that we have to accept.

[burrrton]

It's part of his game that we have to accept.

Hey, you guys be you, but I think it's insulting to Bennett to suggest he's incapable of lining up onside without losing his "edge"- he's just as capable as every other great rusher.

And yeah, again, once in a long while or when he jumps around and drops at the last second, sh*t happens. But examples like the other night are way too common for a smart, talented player, and are *completely* correctable.

Ill take the great with the bad

False choice.

[c_hawkbob]

Well then what are you suggesting Burr? That he does it intentionally just to give us something to argue about?

[NorthHawk]

It's all part of his competitive edge.
If he gets away with it and is on or by the OLineman he's up against, it puts doubt in that OL's mind.
He's already super quick for a big man, so if he's that much closer then the possibility of being disruptive increases.
I find it frustrating, too, but I love the sacks, pressures, and tackles for loss that the DL gets because of his play.

[mykc14]

IMO it is something the Hawks do all the time, especially on D. They play to the edge of the rules. He was way offsides on that play, but was also very close on other plays, probably even being offside again, but it wasn't called again. To me its that idea that they aren't going to call it every time so I'm going to see what I can get away with. The DBs have done the same thing with holding and stuff. See what you can get away with, see what the officials are going to call. I will take an offside penalty each game if it helps him get an extra 2 or 3 hurries a game.

[burrrton]

Well then what are you suggesting Burr? That he does it intentionally just to give us something to argue about?

Of course not- he's just not paying attention would be my guess.

I'll turn the question around, too- what do *you* suggest it is? Something so difficult he struggles with it literally every game (while everybody else seems to be able to figure out)?

And again, you guys are assuming he needs to line up offsides to be a dominating lineman, and you may be right.

I, however, think he's good enough to line up ONside and still dominate, and it should be noted: he demonstrates this fact all the time! His pressure doesn't only come on plays where he's given himself an extra foot or two.

Plus another hurry or two per game (even if I grant he gained that, which I don't) seems a low return for giving the opposition an extra (free) 10-15 yards.

[c_hawkbob]

Did you not read my post from this morning? That's about in depth an overview as I have to offer from behind a keyboard.

[burrrton]

Did you not read my post from this morning? That's about in depth an overview as I have to offer from behind a keyboard.

Yes, I did- I didn't see anything that would explain why he'd do something like he did Sunday night. He wasn't jumping from gap to gap, and reading the o-line's 'cues' is great and wonderful... as long as you're not about to hand them 5 yards regardless of the outcome of the play.

There's simply no excuse for the type of brainfart we saw Sunday, and I'm stunned you guys are so willing to give him a pass for something so easily correctable.

[edit]

And I think I should say again- I'm with you guys on those plays where they (he) *are* jumping around. Very easy to come down too far over the ball in those circumstances.

[mykc14]

Plus another hurry or two per game (even if I grant he gained that, which I don't) seems a low return for giving the opposition an extra (free) 10-15 yards.

That's just it, it's not 10-15 yards a game for a few extra hurries a game. It's a few extra hurries a game for an offsides penalty every other game. In 6 games this year he has had a total of 3 offsides/neutral zone infractions/encroachments. Last year he had a total of 8. The whole time he's been here he averages less than .5 a game, which is high but, like I said has to help him get more pressures than he normally would. Don't get me wrong he is a great DL in this league, but pushing the neutral zone and getting that extra jump has to help him to more than a few extra pressures/sacks a game. It's like a great hitter in baseball, they don't 'have to' guess that a fastball is coming but they still do sometimes because it gives them a bit of an advantage.

[mykc14]

Just a quick look at suh, who is obviously an incredibly talented player. He has had 4 in 12 games this year but he had 13 in 16 games last year. Again Bennett jumps offsides a lot but he isn't the only one trying to get any advantage that he can out there.

[jshawaii22]

Maybe he needs to get his eyes checked. If he's farsighted, there could be a serious depth perception issue where the lines and people around him are blurred and not really in focus. You hear about it a lot in baseball, where contacts or glasses opened up perspective. Last week, Chris Paul talked openly about an operation that cleared up his vision and his game has improved this year.
The play that RD started this talk on... he was off-sides by 1 yard... my wife asked me "is that legal"? -- no, that little hanky that stripped shirt just threw down, says it all.

[RiverDog]

Maybe he needs to get his eyes checked. If he's farsighted, there could be a serious depth perception issue where the lines and people around him are blurred and not really in focus. You hear about it a lot in baseball, where contacts or glasses opened up perspective. Last week, Chris Paul talked openly about an operation that cleared up his vision and his game has improved this year.
The play that RD started this talk on... he was off-sides by 1 yard... my wife asked me "is that legal"? -- no, that little hanky that stripped shirt just threw down, says it all.

That's just it. It's not like he was caught pushing the edge of the envelope just a little too much in an attempt to get as big a jump as possible or that some ref had it out for him because of his reputation. At least on that play, Bennett was offsides by a country mile, and no excuse I've read in here is an adequate explanation for that penalty. The fact that he's had problems in the past with offsides penalties, including lining up offsides, is further evidence that something else is at work besides these aforementioned inadequate excuses.

IMO Bennett has gotten away with not double checking his position with a quick head check for so long that he sometimes gets sloppy. It's like failing to check your blind spot before you change lanes. Once you start not doing it when you know it's not necessary, you fall into a habit of not doing it when you should.

[c_hawkbob]

Yes, I did- I didn't see anything that would explain why he'd do something like he did Sunday night.

Then you're looking for too much of an explanation. I didn't only say it had to do with jumping around from gap to gap, I also spoke of the other things that are in his head at the snap of the ball, the most important of which is intimidation but which also include trying to read all the tells of the guy across from him to decipher the play ... it's those reads, along with his explosiveness, that make him "the most disruptive force in the game" as he's been described by opposing coaches. Looking at where he is in relation to the ball is not an unimportant thing to add to the list of things going through his head at the snap of the ball but I for one am certainly not busting a vein stressing about 5 yards every once in a while if the intensity and aggression that cause those to happen are at risk in trying too hard to push that one consideration to the forefront of his thought process.

And again, I'm not making excuses, just saying I think y'all are making way too big a deal of it.

[burrrton]

Just a quick look at suh, who is obviously an incredibly talented player. He has had 4 in 12 games this year but he had 13 in 16 games last year. Again Bennett jumps offsides a lot but he isn't the only one trying to get any advantage that he can out there.

Eh, I probably am overstating the problem. However, it's not the jumping I'm talking about, which reasonably *would* be part of trying to gain an advantage.

I'm talking about flat lining up offsides, which in my view he doesn't need to do to be dominating (which he demonstrates on all the plays he *doesn't* line up offsides) and which is easily correctable (which is demonstrated by all the linemen who don't have a problem knowing where the LOS is).

And again, I'm not making excuses, just saying I think y'all are making way too big a deal of it.

Fair.

[RiverDog]

And again, I'm not making excuses, just saying I think y'all are making way too big a deal of it.

I really don't think it is that big of a deal and tried to indicate such in my OP. With Watt out for the season, IMO Bennett is arguably the best DL in the game, penalties included. In past threads, I've stated that I felt, and still do feel, that he's our defensive MVP, more so than Earl, more so than Sherman, more so than Wagner.

I started the thread to see if anyone had a reasonable explanation or if others were seeing the same thing I was. So far, I haven't heard anything that would trump my lane changing analogy. As good as he is and as smart as he is, there are times that Bennett just plain gets sloppy, and that penalty Sunday was one of those times.

[NorthHawk]

In the NFL, every advantage has to be taken to be successful on a continuous basis.
That means playing up to and on the edge of the rules.
Sometimes players or the Refs make a mistake and players are penalized.
That's what's going on with Bennett.
I'd rather he be as he is instead of being hesitant or less aggressive.

[RiverDog]

In the NFL, every advantage has to be taken to be successful on a continuous basis.
That means playing up to and on the edge of the rules.
Sometimes players or the Refs make a mistake and players are penalized.
That's what's going on with Bennett.
I'd rather he be as he is instead of being hesitant or less aggressive.

I come down on burrton's side on this one. There's a big difference between being subject to jumping or being drawn offsides and lining up offsides. One is can be accepted as a necessary evil or rationalized for the reasons you mentioned above and the other cannot.

[NorthHawk]

The difference between hitting a QBs arm while throwing or getting a sack or even leverage on the OLineman is inches.
With his superior quickness, the closer he is to the player opposite, the more advantage he has.
It's that simple.

[RiverDog]

The difference between hitting a QBs arm while throwing or getting a sack or even leverage on the OLineman is inches.
With his superior quickness, the closer he is to the player opposite, the more advantage he has.
It's that simple.

Sunday night he wasn't off by a couple inches, he was off by a foot or more. Plus he's had games where he lined up offsides on two plays in a row. That's not trying to gain an advantage, it's a lack of attention to detail.

[c_hawkbob]

Sunday night he wasn't off by a couple inches, he was off by a foot or more. Plus he's had games where he lined up offsides on two plays in a row. That's not trying to gain an advantage, it's a lack of attention to detail.

Says you. I absolutely think it's trying to gain an advantage.

Sure there's a bit of lack of attention to detail there too (and I'm sure he hears about it from the coaches) but the motivation is 100% trying to gain an advantage.

[RiverDog]

Says you. I absolutely think it's trying to gain an advantage.

Sure there's a bit of lack of attention to detail there too (and I'm sure he hears about it from the coaches) but the motivation is 100% trying to gain an advantage.

I have no doubt that Bennett is trying to get every possible advantage on every play. He's a gamer, and also one of my personal favorites.

But on that particular play Sunday night, there is no way in the lower reaches that he was conscious of where he was lining up at.

[burrrton]

But on that particular play Sunday night, there is no way in the lower reaches that he was conscious of where he was lining up at.

Exactly- there's no way he's thinking "maybe they won't see my entire head and shoulders are offsides"- and I don't see how a mistake like that can be reasonably characterized as trying to gain an advantage.

Eh. screw it. I'm sure PC is working with him on it and I want him to beat Rodgers into the tundra Sunday.

[c_hawkbob]

there's no way he's thinking "maybe they won't see my entire head and shoulders are offsides"- and I don't see how a mistake like that can be reasonably characterized as trying to gain an advantage.

Nobody, absolutely nobody is saying he was thinking anything of the sort. He's not lining up offsides intentionally, that would be stupid.

All we're saying is that it's his aggressive nature and single mindedness that allow mistakes like that to happen. And it's just not worth risking the results he gets with that nature and that mindset to mess with it too much.

[RiverDog]

Eh. screw it. I'm sure PC is working with him on it and I want him to beat Rodgers into the tundra Sunday.

Probably a good way to end this thread. It's not likely that any of us are going to change our opinions as a result of extending this debate.