Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

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Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby Largent80 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:13 am

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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby Sox-n-hawks » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:17 am

Does this mean the Eagles are going to get a second opinion from Stephen Hawking?
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:46 am

Or maybe Bill Belichek can give us his take. He seems to be quite the scientist as he gave such a good explanation for the Deflate Gate controversy.

I don't think that there was any question that the lateral was not forward. Davis was clearly trailing Russell by a yard or two. If anything, it was a sideways lateral, which is OK.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:59 am

Does the way the rule is currently written take into account the relative speed of the principals or is it strictly by the yard markers?

I agree that by the "spirit of the rule" that was a kosher play, but the way they parse whether or not a catch is a catch I think we would have to a clarification the point from the league office.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby burrrton » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am

Does the way the rule is currently written take into account the relative speed of the principals or is it strictly by the yard markers?


That's the key to all this, and I still haven't heard a definitive answer (nor do I really give a rip unless I get to go back over tape and analyze every other missed call).

RW clearly threw it backwards, but it was clearly caught ahead of where the ball was released due to momentum of the two players- can't wait to read all the "Eagles should be 11-1" think-pieces if we find out it was technically a violation.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby Uppercut » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:42 am

I just go by what I see and to me it clearly goes backwards if you use the yardage lines as reference. Not even close IMO.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:56 am

The other thing here is that it was a challengeable play, and Philly opted not to challenge it, so they, too, had to have agreed that the ball was not tossed forward, or at the very least, that it was not clear enough a forward lateral to make them feel as if they could win a challenge.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:00 am

Here's the operative sentence from the NFL rule book:

"The ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... Fumble.pdf

That indicates to me that the reference to be used is the yard markers as that would determine if the ball came closer to the opponent's goal line.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby Oly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:10 am

RiverDog wrote:Here's the operative sentence from the NFL rule book:

"The ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... Fumble.pdf

That indicates to me that the reference to be used is the yard markers as that would determine if the ball came closer to the opponent's goal line.


That's my reading, too. I think it was a penalty by the letter of the law, but not by the spirit. The rule, as written, would require the player lateraling the ball to be able to compensate for momentum in real time, which seems unreasonably difficult. But it's easier for the refs as it's written, so they'll likely keep it that way.

But, as others have said, that's on Pederson for not challenging.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby mykc14 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:36 am

RiverDog wrote:Here's the operative sentence from the NFL rule book:

"The ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... Fumble.pdf

That indicates to me that the reference to be used is the yard markers as that would determine if the ball came closer to the opponent's goal line.


To me there is no doubt that had it been reviewed it would have been overturned. Should have been 3rd and 8 or so and then the Hawks would have converted and scored anyway!!
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby burrrton » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:04 pm

RiverDog wrote:Here's the operative sentence from the NFL rule book:

"The ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... Fumble.pdf

That indicates to me that the reference to be used is the yard markers as that would determine if the ball came closer to the opponent's goal line.


"Initially" is an interesting piece of that.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby Largent80 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:59 pm

If Neil is good, I'm good.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby idhawkman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:59 pm

RiverDog wrote:Here's the operative sentence from the NFL rule book:

"The ball initially moves forward (to a point nearer the opponent’s goal line) after leaving the passer’s hand(s);

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/pu ... Fumble.pdf

That indicates to me that the reference to be used is the yard markers as that would determine if the ball came closer to the opponent's goal line.
burrrton wrote:
"Initially" is an interesting piece of that.


Initially it went backwards from RW. so I think it is good even in the rule book.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:49 am

idhawkman wrote:Initially it went backwards from RW. so I think it is good even in the rule book.


It doesn't matter if it didn't go backwards so long as it didn't go forward. By definition in both the rule book and in Webster's a lateral is a side to side movement.

Peterson probably would have lost a challenge as there simply wasn't any credible evidence of the ball going forward. They would have had to have had a camera at the exact yardline Russell was on when he pitched the ball and looking straight to the opposite sideline to get legitimate evidence.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:33 am

If that's the rule, then no lateral would be acceptable unless the player lateralling was not moving forward or threw it backwards with enough force to compensate which means not moving forward very quickly.
They have to change the wording to something like it moves backward or sideways relative to the player who is releasing the ball and not be concerned about the position on the field. In this case the relative positions
of Wilson and Davis.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby mykc14 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:06 am

burrrton wrote:"Initially" is an interesting piece of that.


I am really starting to believe this as well. From this slow motion video (the second one on the page) it really does look like it 'initially' is headed backwards. The first few revolutions of the flip seem to go backwards then it looks like (at least to me) RW's forward momentum when he released the ball causes it to move forward...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/neil ... l-lateral/

Its interesting that they put the word 'initially' into the rules. It seems like it would be for this very reason, because a player moving forward, who pitches the ball backwards, is going to transfer their forward momentum to the ball and cause the overall movement of the ball to go forward...
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:24 pm

mykc14 wrote:I am really starting to believe this as well. From this slow motion video (the second one on the page) it really does look like it 'initially' is headed backwards. The first few revolutions of the flip seem to go backwards then it looks like (at least to me) RW's forward momentum when he released the ball causes it to move forward...

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/neil ... l-lateral/

Its interesting that they put the word 'initially' into the rules. It seems like it would be for this very reason, because a player moving forward, who pitches the ball backwards, is going to transfer their forward momentum to the ball and cause the overall movement of the ball to go forward...


I'm not a physics major, but I do believe that if forward momentum is going to affect the trajectory of the ball that it would do so from the moment it left his hand and not in mid flight.

I want to re-emphasize that the camera angle is not adequate to determine to within a foot or so exactly what direction the ball was moving.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby Feez » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:01 pm

the face mask on Richardson which killed the drive wasn't called so it's a wash. for the record that was a lateral not a forward pass. either way there were no calls and bad calls that went both ways the refs let the players decide the game which no fan should be mad at IMO
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby mykc14 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:57 pm

RiverDog wrote:
I'm not a physics major, but I do believe that if forward momentum is going to affect the trajectory of the ball that it would do so from the moment it left his hand and not in mid flight.

I want to re-emphasize that the camera angle is not adequate to determine to within a foot or so exactly what direction the ball was moving.


Yeah it's going to affect it the whole time but the flight of the ball isn't going to be what you would expect from someone standing still. In other words it looks like a normal lateral when he releases the ball but the further it flies the more you can see how his momentum affected it. If Davis wouldn't have caught it it would have been even more obvious. If Davis were only a foot away from him it would be obvious RW pitched it backwards, but the further away the ball traveled from RW the further up-field the ball went...
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:52 pm

If you've ever played hockey you would see it in action when you pass the puck or shoot from an angle while skating fast.
The forward movement to a relatively lateral pass makes the ball (or puck) move forward by quite a bit if you're motoring. It looks like a pitch (slider?) in baseball except it's all horizontal.

So if a player is running 15 mph and laterals, the ball is still going 15 mph forward even though the pass was not forward at all.
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Re: Neil DeGrasse Tyson on the Lateral

Postby RiverDog » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:48 am

NorthHawk wrote:If you've ever played hockey you would see it in action when you pass the puck or shoot from an angle while skating fast.
The forward movement to a relatively lateral pass makes the ball (or puck) move forward by quite a bit if you're motoring. It looks like a pitch (slider?) in baseball except it's all horizontal.

So if a player is running 15 mph and laterals, the ball is still going 15 mph forward even though the pass was not forward at all.


So I guess what you guys are saying is that the forward momentum of the player running downfield will cause a ball that is thrown at a perpendicular angle (or any angle as far as that goes) to alter its trajectory from what it would be if the player was standing still to one that's slightly further in the direction of the momentum, and I can buy that.

Now that I think of it, I learned this lesson while throwing water balloons from the passenger side of a moving car.
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