OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Futureite » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:06 pm

Aseahawkfan wrote:Futurerite already bet big on Colin Kaepernick, believing all the hype about him, and lost that argument as well believing stupidly CK was far better than he was.

This is sports. Futurerite and Niner fans can make their argument. Seattle fans can disagree. It doesn't matter because it will all be decided on the field. All that matters to Seattle fans is that if Jimmy G fails, the Niners fail. If Jimmy G succeeds, then we have a rival we must respect. We'll see over the next few years.


You are right, I judged CK to be better than he ended up being. But the truth is, he was a good QB - no matter how people try to twist and make him appear awful. And he should still be a starter in this league, an above 90 rating QB in the right situation. Did he turn out to be as good as RW? No. I give the man his due. He has now put up the numbers and is generally great in the clutch situations. He is an upper level talent and the difference between him, CK and others is that he can succeed under adverse situations, doesn’t need the “right” situation.

And you are right about JG. We will see over time. We like all the legit things we’ve seen so far. Time will tell.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:09 am

Futureite wrote:You are right, I judged CK to be better than he ended up being. But the truth is, he was a good QB - no matter how people try to twist and make him appear awful. And he should still be a starter in this league, an above 90 rating QB in the right situation. Did he turn out to be as good as RW? No. I give the man his due. He has now put up the numbers and is generally great in the clutch situations. He is an upper level talent and the difference between him, CK and others is that he can succeed under adverse situations, doesn’t need the “right” situation.


I'm not sure about Kaepernick's being a starter. Once he lost his fig leaf in the form of his offensive line disolving and Pro Bowl running back departing, Kaepernick was very pedestrian at best. Maybe if he went to someplace like Dallas, a team with a great OL and a starting QB that has a similar skill set to that of which Kaepernick had during his best years. But you could say that about a lot of wannabe quarterbacks, ie that they could be a starter if all the stars lined up for them.

But I do agree that under normal circumstances, Kaepernick is good enough to be on an NFL roster. The trouble is that his talent is not good enough to offset the legitimate concerns that teams have over the PR circus that would ensue. He chit in his own nest. It will be interesting to see if his collusion lawsuit goes anywhere.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:24 am

I think the "PR Circus" is overblown. It'd be done after the first week. It's taken on a life of its own now and evolved into something that spreads the focal point to other players and teams.
However, I read an article that said his last year (or maybe his last few games) he had as good stats as Garropolo in his first few games in SF.
He didn't have much help around him then, either if I recollect, but I didn't look at any of the stats to confirm 'cause I don't really care much about SF.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby mykc14 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:34 am

NorthHawk wrote:I think the "PR Circus" is overblown. It'd be done after the first week. It's taken on a life of its own now and evolved into something that spreads the focal point to other players and teams.
However, I read an article that said his last year (or maybe his last few games) he had as good stats as Garropolo in his first few games in SF.
He didn't have much help around him then, either if I recollect, but I didn't look at any of the stats to confirm 'cause I don't really care much about SF.


He was on a championship quality team when he became a starter in SF. They made it to the NFCCG the year before and the SB in his first year as a starter. The team he took over is nowhere near the team that SF has right now. Also, he was in his second season when he took over so he knew the system. One reason SF is so high on Jimmy is because he was able to play at a high level after a mid-season trade, pretty remarkable. Also, Kaepernick's game was based on athleticism and mis-direction (zone read, etc..). He ran a simplified passing attack that really only required him to make one or two reads and only read half the field for the most part. He was successful because he played behind the best OL in the league.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:42 am

NorthHawk wrote:I think the "PR Circus" is overblown. It'd be done after the first week. It's taken on a life of its own now and evolved into something that spreads the focal point to other players and teams.
However, I read an article that said his last year (or maybe his last few games) he had as good stats as Garropolo in his first few games in SF.
He didn't have much help around him then, either if I recollect, but I didn't look at any of the stats to confirm 'cause I don't really care much about SF.


I'm not saying that the "PR Circus" is or isn't overblown. What I am saying is that it is a factor as to why Kaepernick doesn't at least have a job as a backup. We know that at least two teams, the Giants and Ravens, where it was a factor.

And you're right about Kaep's last few of games with the Niners. They were pretty decent. In his last 4 games, he threw for 6 TD's and just one INT and his last two games his completion percentage was above 75%. But it's hard to justify those numbers as the last game of the season was against us and a virtual mail-it-in and one of the games was in a blowout loss to the Falcons. Bottom line was that his 2016 performance was the bottoming out of a three year slide.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Futureite » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:41 pm

River;

His last full season he put up 16 TDs 4 INTs, which is a better ratio than more than half the starters in the league. What he lacked was consistency. He never developed into a consistently accurate QB or one that could adapt to different schemes thrown at him on the fly. He wasn't a guy who could perform in the Tomsula/Kelly O. A truly upper level QB would have, but he did not turn out to be that. Look around the league though. Alex Smith had an incredible statistical year and yet he looked like a bust almost the entire time I watched him here. He needed the right situation. It's not really unique for a QB to "need" a particular system or surrounding talent to thrive. There are only a few that can put up numbers in adverse conditions (Wilson would be one of the few) and even fewer that can elevate the rest of the team to be consistent SB contenders regardless of the subpar talent around them (I'd say, Rodgers and Brady). But overall, I see your points.

Mykc makes a lot of good points. I don't know what JG will become but he did demonstrate the qualities we want at QB. He's a pure pocket passer who is consistently accurate, even under duress. He has good leadership skills. We haven't seen that mold of QB here since the early 90's. I don't think Jeff Garcia counts.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:21 am

Futureite wrote:River;

His last full season he (Kaepernick) put up 16 TDs 4 INTs, which is a better ratio than more than half the starters in the league.


I think you're a little guilty of cherry picking. Yes, Kaepernick's 2016 TD/INT ratio was very good, but just about every other statistical category was well below the norm for starting QB's. He ranked 29th in total yards, 24th in yards per attempt, 26th in completion percentatge, 30th in yards per game. And that followed a 2015 season where he put up very similar numbers.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:19 am

The problem with stats is what they don't answer.
Who was he throwing to and how many YAC did they get and how many drops? What was the Offense asking of him and did the receivers run the proper routes?
16/4 is a pretty good ratio regardless of the other stats and is probably the only one that's meaningful without the other info. It shows he was taking care not to throw INT's but there were probably a few drops by defenders and maybe some TDs dropped by the WRs, so it's not perfect either.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:12 pm

NorthHawk wrote:The problem with stats is what they don't answer.
Who was he throwing to and how many YAC did they get and how many drops? What was the Offense asking of him and did the receivers run the proper routes?
16/4 is a pretty good ratio regardless of the other stats and is probably the only one that's meaningful without the other info. It shows he was taking care not to throw INT's but there were probably a few drops by defenders and maybe some TDs dropped by the WRs, so it's not perfect either.


I'm no more or less enamored over a TD/INT ratio as I am a completion percentage. There's more than what you mentioned that can affect a TD/INT stat. There's a number of interceptions that are not on the QB but rather the receiver, either having a pass bounce off their hands or by running a bad route. And I wouldn't rate a TD pass like the one Foles caught in the Super Bowl as I would a 60 yard strike with defenders hanging all over the QB. The fact that touchdowns and interceptions are much more rare events than other stats like attempts and completions means that it's going to be influenced more by the anomaly or fluke play.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Futureite » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:37 pm

River;

I agree with most of what you posted, other than the cherrypicking part. I was not cherrypicking - just pointing out that 16 TDS 90.7 QB rating should be good enough to start on a good number of NFL teams. When you consider Tom Savage, Jay Cutler, Tyrod Taylor on and on started, it's a pretty tough argument to say Kap shouldn't have started somewhere as a 15-20ish tier QB. But yes, I agree that he was erratic, did not sustain drives and was not consistently accurate. All of the other stats you listed are extremely important to the success of an O. Pretty much the meat and potatoes of it (at least for the pass game). I loved Kap but much more confident in who we have now at this point.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:53 am

Futureite wrote:River;

I agree with most of what you posted, other than the cherrypicking part. I was not cherrypicking - just pointing out that 16 TDS 90.7 QB rating should be good enough to start on a good number of NFL teams. When you consider Tom Savage, Jay Cutler, Tyrod Taylor on and on started, it's a pretty tough argument to say Kap shouldn't have started somewhere as a 15-20ish tier QB. But yes, I agree that he was erratic, did not sustain drives and was not consistently accurate. All of the other stats you listed are extremely important to the success of an O. Pretty much the meat and potatoes of it (at least for the pass game). I loved Kap but much more confident in who we have now at this point.


Part of the problem is his demeanor, and that's more than just his anthem protests. If he wants to go to a team and compete for the starting job, he has to look and act like a Face of the Franchise player. He's the quarterback, not a wide receiver. The only QB in the league that can get away with that kind of behavior is Cam Newton, and even his antics don't approach what Kaepernick has done while he was with SF. Growing his 'fro out hurt his ability to land a job, as was the headphones issue, his disrespect for his fans, his piggy socks, Castro tee shirt, and so on. The guy is a dipchit, doesn't seem to recognize the environment within which he and every other wannabe NFL quarterback must operate in. The guy has turned himself into this huge PR risk, and his marginal quarterbacking skills doesn't justify taking that risk, at least not for most teams that are in the market for a starting QB....and no one is going to take that chance if all he's going to be is an insurance policy.

By donating his first ever NFL paycheck to hurricane relief, Deshaun Watson seems to have recognized that a starting quarterback has an unwritten obligation to craft an image of himself that all fans can rally around. Russell Wilson has that attribute in spades. Kaepernick still doesn't get it, and thus he's still without a job.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:43 am

No. That's simply not true.
He's being blackballed because of his stand. He's better than many of the starting QBs in the league and most of the backups, but he couldn't even get a tryout.
It has nothing to do with his afro, socks, or tee shirt, and everything to do with the league owners sending a message that it's their show and players better toe the line.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:06 pm

NorthHawk wrote:No. That's simply not true.
He's being blackballed because of his stand. He's better than many of the starting QBs in the league and most of the backups, but he couldn't even get a tryout.
It has nothing to do with his afro, socks, or tee shirt, and everything to do with the league owners sending a message that it's their show and players better toe the line.


Then we should expect his collusion lawsuit to bear fruit. Right?
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:15 pm

If it's not turned into a sham, then yes.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Futureite » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:25 pm

River;

The Face of The Franchise stuff is great for selling tickets and marketing (hence, it is important) but it doesn’t mean much for Ws and Ls. What matters is how well you play. Eli Manning never said a whole lot but he won two SBs. People follow other people who demonstrate compentency at what they do.

And, I’d say it also matters in the sense of the energy the QB brings to the team. If players view the QB as the alpha or the leader, they’ll play for him - regardless of whether the media or fans like his haircut or sox or hiw he speaks in front of a mic. Philip Rivers is kind of an A-Whole, but players love him. Why? He’s very good, very competitive. it’s pretty hard to be the “alpha” or leader at anything though when your skills don’t match the job description. You just end up looking like Brock Osweiler, screaming to deaf ears on the sideline. Bottom line, when we were winning, Kap was leading. He was confident. When the team, staff and ownership became a clustereff and we started losing, he wasn’t good enough to carry the entire Org - and his confidence took a hit. Thus, he couldn’t lead. I’m not sure too many QBs would have excelled in that mess. I know Alex Smith never did.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Futureite » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:35 pm

NorthHawk wrote:No. That's simply not true.
He's being blackballed because of his stand. He's better than many of the starting QBs in the league and most of the backups, but he couldn't even get a tryout.
It has nothing to do with his afro, socks, or tee shirt, and everything to do with the league owners sending a message that it's their show and players better toe the line.


I agree. Though it’s true he hasn’t helped himself in terms of getting another QB job with any of this stuff. People tend to forget though that he said he was done kneeling and would not discuss it further on another team. When you consider that, it’s hard to explain why he can’t even get a tryout. Felons and thugs have done far worse and received 2nd, 3rd and 4th tries in this league. Still blows my mind that this guy had a 4.0 GPS in highschool, graduated Nevada with honors, has no criminal record and honestly, has never really said even a tenth of the things numerous players in this league have (can you really remember him insulting anyone directly?), and yet some people just hate him. Not dislike, but full on hate. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on personalities though, and NFL owners have made their opinion loud and clear without saying a single word.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Old but Slow » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:52 am

Unusual that I am agreeing with a Niner, but Kap is being held under a different standard. Because he was the first? I don't know. And, meanwhile how much will his skills suffer from no game action for a long time. It is disgraceful, and I only hope that there can be some chance for him to succeed or fail.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:44 am

Whether you consider the practice to be right or wrong, the reality is that there are some owners/GM's that do consider character aspects when signing players, particularly the quarterback, who no matter how good, bad, or indifferent they turn out to be, are going to be under intense scrutiny. Anyone here remember Tim Ruskell? Do you think he would have brought in Kaepernick? Or how about Miami? Do you think that the GM there would be willing to bring Kaepernick and his Castro tee shirt to South Florida?

I have my doubts as to whether or not Kaepernick could be a Week 1 starter for a lot of teams in the NFL. With his skill set, the only place he'd fit in would be with a team that has an above average OL and a good running game. Jacksonville might be one such place. Is Kaepernick better than Blake Bortles? Perhaps. But are you going to bench Bortles, a top 10 pick that you've invested heavily in? If it failed, it could be a career ender for the HC/GM, much more so than if Bortles struggled, so it'd take a set of nuts.

Dallas would be a good landing spot...great offensive line, outstanding running back..but is Jerry Jones going to bench Dak Prescott and hand the job over to Kaepernick? At least Jones doesn't have to worry about getting fired if it failed, but still, it's not likely.

So bottom line is that (1) I do think that Kaepernick could start for a few teams and do well. Whether they'd be willing to change quarterbacks is another matter. (2) I do believe that his non football behavior has affected his prospects, and (3) I seriously doubt that a large number of teams have conspired to "blackball" him due to his political activism.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby Old but Slow » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:50 am

Character issues. What a loaded term. An icon, Ray Lewis, was reputed to hang with gangs and was implicated in a shooting, A number of players and coaches have been involved in domestic violence issues. Drug issues have arisen. So, a player takes an unpopular political stand, and suddenly has "character issues". I heard he was a good student, never been in trouble with the law, but he has that big afro, and he's angry. So…it's where we live.
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Re: OT: Jimmy G signs massive deal with niners

Postby RiverDog » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:09 am

Old but Slow wrote:Character issues. What a loaded term. An icon, Ray Lewis, was reputed to hang with gangs and was implicated in a shooting, A number of players and coaches have been involved in domestic violence issues. Drug issues have arisen. So, a player takes an unpopular political stand, and suddenly has "character issues". I heard he was a good student, never been in trouble with the law, but he has that big afro, and he's angry. So…it's where we live.


Yes, indeed, "character" is a loaded term. It can mean many different things and apply to a wide variety of people and actions, from a rapist like Mike Tyson to a party animal like Johnny Manziel to an accused murderer like Ray Lewis. No doubt about it, there's a lot of things that can fall under the category of "character issues."

Being stupid can be considered a character issue, too, and as a starting quarterback, Kaepernick was stupid for continuously thrusting himself into controversial situations for years, from his refusal to take off his headphones in post game pressers, his getting mixed up with a strange woman that ended up in a hospital and a little brush with the law, to his disrespecting Niner fans by sporting a Dolphins cap, to his piggy socks, his Castro tee shirt, his anthem protests, his admission that he didn't vote, and yes, stupid for growing out his '70's 'fro (Michael Vick, of all people, called him out on it). Then he was stupid to opt out of his contract.

Stupid is as stupid does.
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