Malik

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Malik

Postby Stream Hawk » Mon Apr 16, 2018 7:12 pm

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Re: Malik

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Yep. That means wasted 2nd round picks for three years. Last year, this year, and next year. 2nd round pick traded for Sheldon Richardson who we did not retain. 2nd round pick traded for Duane Brown because we couldn't cultivate even a middle of the road O-lineman and had to trade for one. Wow. Pete and John built us a Super Bowl winner, but they have made some serious, franchise-damaging mistakes trading whether it's Percy, Jimmy, Sheldon Richardson, or Duane Brown. Not very smart team management, not very "Win forever"-like.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:30 am

Even before the accident, McDowell was considered a reach, which seems to describe most Seahawk draft picks. But you're right, the trades for active players has been the one thing that has kept this team from staying young.

However, although I had a problem with a couple of the trades, namely Harvin and Graham, I can't say that I disagreed with the philosophy. We had a window and at the time, were thought to be a player or two away from being a SB contender.
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Re: Malik

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:05 am

RiverDog wrote:Even before the accident, McDowell was considered a reach, which seems to describe most Seahawk draft picks. But you're right, the trades for active players has been the one thing that has kept this team from staying young.

However, although I had a problem with a couple of the trades, namely Harvin and Graham, I can't say that I disagreed with the philosophy. We had a window and at the time, were thought to be a player or two away from being a SB contender.


I don't see the Patriots doing this. You have to have confidence in your coaching and drafting ability. You shouldn't feel like you need to spend high draft capital for talent from other teams. You should be able to take under performing players and put them in a system to excel like we did in the early years during the run up to the Super Bowl. We did it right early on poaching talent from other teams and making them shine. Then for some strange reason we started grabbing talent at market price or higher that underperformed. Bad way to do things and wasn't necessary.

Pete and John need to get back to the old formula.
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Re: Malik

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:13 am

I don't recall any player they picked up either through trade or FA on Offense that has really worked out. The top 3 being Harvin, Graham, and Lacy, but maybe I'm wrong.
On Defense, it's another matter with the best examples being Bennett and Avril with Clemons right up there.
I said a few years ago that they don't "get" Offense, at least as well as they do Defense, but I suppose it's to be expected with a Defensive minded HC and a Defensive oriented team.
It's going to be interesting if in fact they are going to move towards a team led by Wilson and the Offense with less emphasis on Defense.
In the end, I just don't see it happening. The best we can really hope for is an above average Offense, not a great Offense.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:12 am

NorthHawk wrote:I don't recall any player they picked up either through trade or FA on Offense that has really worked out. The top 3 being Harvin, Graham, and Lacy, but maybe I'm wrong.
On Defense, it's another matter with the best examples being Bennett and Avril with Clemons right up there.
I said a few years ago that they don't "get" Offense, at least as well as they do Defense, but I suppose it's to be expected with a Defensive minded HC and a Defensive oriented team.
It's going to be interesting if in fact they are going to move towards a team led by Wilson and the Offense with less emphasis on Defense.
In the end, I just don't see it happening. The best we can really hope for is an above average Offense, not a great Offense.


Don't forget about Beast, although that was in their first year. The jury is still out with Brown.

But I agree with your premise. Overall, this regime has had a lot more success at identifying and procuring talent on the defensive side of the ball vs. offense, although you have to expect some of that given our HC's roots.
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Re: Malik

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:49 am

Geez, how could I forget Lynch? Is he the only one who has worked out of the big names? Brown has a few years left, so he may also turn out to be a good pickup and he's valuable if they have the heir at LT on their roster or draft him this year as learning how to be a pro is a big step in a players development.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:48 am

NorthHawk wrote:Geez, how could I forget Lynch? Is he the only one who has worked out of the big names? Brown has a few years left, so he may also turn out to be a good pickup and he's valuable if they have the heir at LT on their roster or draft him this year as learning how to be a pro is a big step in a players development.


Lynch is the only one on offense, that's for sure.

There's also a couple of quarterbacks that we've aquired through trade or FA that didn't work out: Charlie Whitehurst and Matt Flynn.
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Re: Malik

Postby Aseahawkfan » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:41 pm

NorthHawk wrote:Geez, how could I forget Lynch? Is he the only one who has worked out of the big names? Brown has a few years left, so he may also turn out to be a good pickup and he's valuable if they have the heir at LT on their roster or draft him this year as learning how to be a pro is a big step in a players development.


Brown is an average guy at LT, but we've been so bad at that position that average looks good right now. Only real win in trades on offense is Beastmode. They overpaid for Harvin and Graham was just starting to do well when we didn't retain him. Graham was a bad idea for an offense like ours to begin with. Graham was a volume passing TE and we don't volume pass. Harvin was a big risk, big reward type of guy and we missed hard the other way, it's too bad they overpaid for the headcase.

I wish Pete and John had more confidence in their drafting and development ability. Just another way Bevell and Cable's ineptness forced Pete and John to reach on talent. Bevell and Cable weren't very good at talent evaluation. Pete needs a stronger offensive coaching staff. Not sure he picked coaches like he needs, but we shall see.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:22 am

Aseahawkfan wrote:Brown is an average guy at LT, but we've been so bad at that position that average looks good right now. Only real win in trades on offense is Beastmode. They overpaid for Harvin and Graham was just starting to do well when we didn't retain him. Graham was a bad idea for an offense like ours to begin with. Graham was a volume passing TE and we don't volume pass. Harvin was a big risk, big reward type of guy and we missed hard the other way, it's too bad they overpaid for the headcase.

I wish Pete and John had more confidence in their drafting and development ability. Just another way Bevell and Cable's ineptness forced Pete and John to reach on talent. Bevell and Cable weren't very good at talent evaluation. Pete needs a stronger offensive coaching staff. Not sure he picked coaches like he needs, but we shall see.


I actually think it was the opposite, that Pete and John had too much confidence in their staff's ability to develop players, that they could take a consensus 2nd or 3rd round pick and develop them into first round talent.
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Re: Malik

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:24 am

Or worse, trying to make DLinemen into OLinemen and constant shuffling the young guys around so they don't get a chance to settle in and actually learn a position.
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Re: Malik

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:51 pm

RiverDog wrote:I actually think it was the opposite, that Pete and John had too much confidence in their staff's ability to develop players, that they could take a consensus 2nd or 3rd round pick and develop them into first round talent.


Maybe early on. They lost confidence and started to pursue damaging trades desperate to find players the coaches and scouts failed to develop or draft. How many failed WR and O-line picks? I think that's why we reached a point where we pursued trades for talent we couldn't find and develop.
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Re: Malik

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:49 pm

It almost mirrored the Offense after Lynch where they were almost relying on the big plays instead of taking care of the basics that got them to the top a few years ago.
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Re: Malik

Postby Old but Slow » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:25 am

It seems harsh to criticize much of what Brown did at LT. He had never played with a frenetic QB like Russell before, and there were a few times when he did his usual job of blocking a DE out of the play deep, only to find that that is where Russell is. In time, they will work that out.

How long is this limb? I'll go out and say that this offensive line could be pretty good. Improvement from Ifedi, and some strength and weight gain for Pocic, a road grader at guard (it's been awhile), and another year for our backups, where there is promise in Rees and Roos. (Agh, I want so bad to make a corny candy joke, or something)

Brown and Britt, (I resist) seem to be the cornerstone of this line, but Fant may be ready to add something.

Keep them healthy, get them working together, build some attitude, and watch them grow. They have some very good athletes, so now they need to be players.
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Re: Malik

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:52 am

You all do understand it is only going to get worse when you have Pete Carroll and John Schneider making the draft choices don't you?

Tick, tick, tick, you are on the clock Pete!
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Re: Malik

Postby idhawkman » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:46 am

NorthHawk wrote:Geez, how could I forget Lynch? Is he the only one who has worked out of the big names? Brown has a few years left, so he may also turn out to be a good pickup and he's valuable if they have the heir at LT on their roster or draft him this year as learning how to be a pro is a big step in a players development.
RiverDog wrote:
Lynch is the only one on offense, that's for sure.

There's also a couple of quarterbacks that we've aquired through trade or FA that didn't work out: Charlie Whitehurst and Matt Flynn.

I would argue that Sydney Rice was a pretty good pick up for the first couple years. Too bad he was long in the tooth and closer to retirement than peak years. I wouldn't call him a huge success but he wasn't a bust for sure. I think the leadership he taught Baldwin and Tate was invaluable for our SB run. He displayed true leadership as a seasoned veteran.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:49 am

idhawkman wrote:I would argue that Sydney Rice was a pretty good pick up for the first couple years. Too bad he was long in the tooth and closer to retirement than peak years. I wouldn't call him a huge success but he wasn't a bust for sure. I think the leadership he taught Baldwin and Tate was invaluable for our SB run. He displayed true leadership as a seasoned veteran.


Rice was hurt alot. One could make a better argument for Zach Miller than for Rice.
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Re: Malik

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:55 am

Baldwin has turned out to be a stud and was a great UFA signing, but if you think about it, there have only been a few standout players on Offense for this team in 8 drafts and FA periods.
I hope the new assistant coaches can turn it around starting this year.
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Re: Malik

Postby idhawkman » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:30 am

NorthHawk wrote:Baldwin has turned out to be a stud and was a great UFA signing, but if you think about it, there have only been a few standout players on Offense for this team in 8 drafts and FA periods.
I hope the new assistant coaches can turn it around starting this year.


Yeah, Russell Wilson, Marshawn Lynch, Doug Baldwin and Zach Miller all were standouts. Wouldn't it be nice to have them in their peak at the same time. The only position missing is OL in that grouping. We don't have any standout OL FA.
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Re: Malik

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:44 am

Okung was pretty good when he wasn't on IR.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:07 pm

NorthHawk wrote:Okung was pretty good when he wasn't on IR.


But Okung wasn't an FA signing (and neither was Russell, ID)

We did have Breno and McQuistan that were starters on the OL, but they didn't play well enough to earn a long term deal.
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Re: Malik

Postby idhawkman » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:16 am

Good catch River. I didn't list Okung or the center we sent to N.O. becasue they were draft picks but totally spaced the Wilson issue. I wouldn't say Tavaris was a great FA signing but he did backup Wilson for a number of years and did start for us that first year. That said, I wouldn't count him in the class with Beast, Miller and Rice.

I would mention that it would be almost impossible for us to sign a "good" let alone a "great" QB with the way Russell has played though. Year 1 under Carroll/Schneider was Hass and year two was TJ but everything since then has been RW. I don't foresee that position opening up in the near future either.
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Re: Malik

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:46 am

TJ was a decent QB that filled the gap between Hass and Russell, and although he busted his balls for us, was never the long term solution. I'll never forget an over exuberant Pete Carroll acting like a 5 year old on a sugar high in an interview immediately after a regular season win exclaiming that he was going to "build around Tavaris." Man, did I cringe when I heard that. Those of us that criticize Russell for holding onto the ball too long forget how indecisive TJ was.
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