RW vents about all the hits he's taken

[TriCitySam]

Our passing Offense isn't a Timing type of Offense, meaning the plays don't
seem to call for quick 3 or 5 step drops and fire like some of the Holmgren WC Offenses we have had in the past. In those Offenses the QB had to get the ball out of his hands at a precise time and the receiver had to be in a specific spot at a
precise time. In our passing Offense under Wilson and in Pete's tenure, we haven't had a lot of that and it's given Wilson the freedom to extend plays. This puts pressure on the OL because of the extended time required to pass block and because Wilson can escape to either side.

I know the OL has been frustrated at times as well (Ray Roberts spoke to this). Makes you wonder, I certainly don't know and hate to bring up the height issue, but is it possibly that RW isn't effective on the quick the shorter middle routes because when his drops are short he simply can't see? We don't see a lot of throws in that area.

[NorthHawk]

I know the OL has been frustrated at times as well (Ray Roberts spoke to this). Makes you wonder, I certainly don't know and hate to bring up the height issue, but is it possibly that RW isn't effective on the quick the shorter middle routes because when his drops are short he simply can't see? We don't see a lot of throws in that area.

I don't subscribe to that theory. Brees isn't that much taller and he's very good at it, so it can be done effectively if the OC schemes for it.
Some of the DL like Calais Campbell are well over 6-5 (I think he's 6-7) and gets his hands up, so any QB would have difficulty with that. The successful QB's use throwing lanes. Just look at Brady.
He's been schooled to use them extremely well. Manning was the same way and they're both 6-5 or thereabouts.

[obiken]

That’s how this is being interpreted by former players, and “reportedly” some of his OL. RW has his “team” that speaks for him, and they have made it known that “Russell is unhappy with being hit too much”, and RW confirmed as much in his comments on DP, saying “400 times is way too many, 400 sacks too many and that’s gotta be fixed, has to be fixed......We gotta get better up front.”

I don’t disagree with the premise, but RW is part of the problem. When you say “We gotta get better upfront”, that is clearly a dart at the OL. That conversation is for the locker rooms, not public.

We dont know TS how much has been going on behind the scenes. I think Russ has probably tried, but PC is stubborn has hell.

[TriCitySam]

[quote="obiken]We dont know TS how much has been going on behind the scenes. I think Russ has probably tried, but PC is stubborn has hell.[/quote]

Your right we don't know. I get stubborn, but I also get that you can listen, but do what you believe is in the team's best interest.

One comment on Drew Brees - you often seen him lifting his chin up, stretching his neck to try and see better, so there may be some validity to the height issue.

[NorthHawk]

It doesn’t seem to have limited his effectiveness by stretching and lifting his chin up.
He uses throwing lanes like all QBs.

[Aseahawkfan]

Russell threw 40 TDs, 13 ints, and 4200 yards. He ran for 513 yards and 2 TDs.

Why are Seattle fans in a world where a total of 4700 yards, 42 TDs, and 13 ints a problem with your QB? That is really weird to me.

Russell was 9 yards, 6th completion percentage, tied for 2nd in TDs, 8th in QBR, and 7th in rating.

Have Seattle fans really started putting their nose in the air where SB or bust it the only way Pete and Russell are doing well? If that's the criteria, no one coach or QB is making anyone happy but once every ten years maybe.

We're still in great shape as a team. The majority of NFL fans wish they were Seattle save for perhaps Patriots fans and Tampa Bay this year.

[Hawktawk]

Russell threw 40 TDs, 13 ints, and 4200 yards. He ran for 513 yards and 2 TDs.

Why are Seattle fans in a world where a total of 4700 yards, 42 TDs, and 13 ints a problem with your QB? That is really weird to me.

Russell was 9 yards, 6th completion percentage, tied for 2nd in TDs, 8th in QBR, and 7th in rating.

Have Seattle fans really started putting their nose in the air where SB or bust it the onlyt way Pete and Russell are doing well? If that's the criteria, no one coach or QB is making anyone happy but once every ten years maybe.

We're still in great shape as a team. The majority of NFL fans wish they were Seattle save for perhaps Patriots fans and Tampa Bay this year.

We agree with all of that but it was a tale of 2 halves . Regardless while Wilson got some deserved heat down the stretch this whole topic blew up due to him very publicly criticizing ownership and his teammates . That’s not healthy long term. Everyone who is a fan of the hawks wants this to work . Russ is the one who raised a stir though .

[obiken]

We agree with all of that but it was a tale of 2 halves . Regardless while Wilson got some deserved heat down the stretch this whole topic blew up due to him very publicly criticizing ownership and his teammates . That’s not healthy long term. Everyone who is a fan of the hawks wants this to work . Russ is the one who raised a stir though .

But again he had a right to. Sorry, I dont want a YES man for my QB. Look how much crap Luck took then had to quit. The days of FQ's not trying to improve their chances for a title are over. PC needs to get with the program.

[RiverDog]

We're still in great shape as a team. The majority of NFL fans wish they were Seattle save for perhaps Patriots fans and Tampa Bay this year.

The season ended on a huge dud, one and done in the first round. We let a team that we had beaten rather decisively a few weeks earlier beat us on our home field with a QB that had a broken finger on his throwing hand.

Pete has been our coach since 2010. In his first 5 years, our playoff record was 7-3. In the past 6 years, that record is 3-5. We seem doomed to mediocrity. We perform just well enough to keep our draft position in the mid 20's. At some point, we have to not be satisfied with "pretty good" and start shooting for the moon.

I'm willing to give Russell and/or Pete one more season to at least get us deep into the playoffs or I'm off the bandwagon, blow up the team and start over again.

[NorthHawk]

Unfortunately I don't see this team improve much over last year - even with Wilson.
We have a tight Cap situation and only 3 or 4 draft picks along with having to re-sign some important players just to stay the same.
So unless the FO pulls a rabbit out of a hat and hits big time on all draft picks, and/or some great FA's that come cheap are signed, the team will be not be challenging for championships this year or the next couple.
We're in a bit of a jam for the future, unless we get rid of some higher paid stars or maybe rework a lot of contracts to Cap friendlier deals. But that would mean pushing the cost down the road to other years.

[c_hawkbob]

You guys are trippin'. Don't know if it's the pandemic are the political climate or what but this "sky is falling" sh!t has caught on big here. We just posted the the second best record (3 way tie) in team history and y'all are literally jumping off the bandwagon.?!

Sure there are things to work on, there have always been things to work on, but there is also a lot of good about this team. No way I'm jumping ship.

[NorthHawk]

You guys are trippin'. Don't know if it's the pandemic are the political climate or what but this "sky is falling" sh!t has caught on big here. We just posted the the second best record (3 way tie) in team history and y'all are literally jumping off the bandwagon.?!

Sure there are things to work on, there have always been things to work on, but there is also a lot of good about this team. No way I'm jumping ship.

The things to work on are now massive. Holes all along the Defense, starters up for contract renewals or be replaced, a star QB who isn't happy, a tight salary cap, very few draft picks to re-stock.
We've put ourselves in a bit of a box with very few ways out.

[RiverDog]

You guys are trippin'. Don't know if it's the pandemic are the political climate or what but this "sky is falling" sh!t has caught on big here. We just posted the the second best record (3 way tie) in team history and y'all are literally jumping off the bandwagon.?!

Sure there are things to work on, there have always been things to work on, but there is also a lot of good about this team. No way I'm jumping ship.

The things to work on are now massive. Holes all along the Defense, starters up for contract renewals or be replaced, a star QB who isn't happy, a tight salary cap, very few draft picks to re-stock. We've put ourselves in a bit of a box with very few ways out.

Yea, that pretty much says it. We have some tough decisions to make on Bobby and KJ. Duane Brown isn't getting any younger and we don't have anyone on the roster groomed to replace him. Chris Carson is a free agent and will want a big raise. We're going to have to pay Jamal Adams. Russell has expressed his displeasure over our offensive line. We don't have a first round pick for the next two years. IMO that's a little more than just some "things to work on".

Like I said, I'm giving ourselves one more chance.

[Hawktawk]

Since super bowl 49 we haven’t been past the divisional . 3-5 in last 8 playoff games . Back in the day I’d have said hell yes playoffs every year . And I did till just recently but it occurred to me the drug of a super bowl gets in your blood . I love Russ Wilson , PC, the lob , this entire golden era . But it’s time to face the facts . The team hasn’t been competitive postseason , has lost in the WC 2 of the last 3 seasons and really not been competitive in those losses . Russ has been average to bad in many of those games . Now he’s gone very public . My guess is he’s back but what kind of year can we expect ? How many top linemen want to come block for a line killer ? It’s just a bad vibe all around . I guess I felt similar in 2004 when we had lost 3 times to the rams and Holmgren had been stripped of the president role . He almost resigned but as we know the next year was a super bowl berth. I hope this weird episode yields good results but I could see this going sideways quick.

[RiverDog]

Since super bowl 49 we haven’t been past the divisional . 3-5 in last 8 playoff games . Back in the day I’d have said hell yes playoffs every year . And I did till just recently but it occurred to me the drug of a super bowl gets in your blood . I love Russ Wilson , PC, the lob , this entire golden era . But it’s time to face the facts . The team hasn’t been competitive postseason , has lost in the WC 2 of the last 3 seasons and really not been competitive in those losses . Russ has been average to bad in many of those games . Now he’s gone very public . My guess is he’s back but what kind of year can we expect ? How many top linemen want to come block for a line killer ? It’s just a bad vibe all around . I guess I felt similar in 2004 when we had lost 3 times to the rams and Holmgren had been stripped of the president role . He almost resigned but as we know the next year was a super bowl berth. I hope this weird episode yields good results but I could see this going sideways quick.

I get the feeling that we're another NY Giants, content with Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin. It took them 4 years before they figured out that it wasn't working anymore.

You're right about Pete raising the expectation bar. If Lions fans could peer into our comments, they'd laugh themselves silly at our being upset with 5 playoff appearances in 6 years, the most recent achievement being winning our division with a 12-4 mark. But at some point, we're going to have to admit to ourselves that we're stuck in a rut, that we're not getting any better.

[obiken]

I get the feeling that we're another NY Giants, content with Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin. It took them 4 years before they figured out that it wasn't working anymore.

You're right about Pete raising the expectation bar. If Lions fans could peer into our comments, they'd laugh themselves silly at our being upset with 5 playoff appearances in 6 years, the most recent achievement being winning our division with a 12-4 mark. But at some point, we're going to have to admit to ourselves that we're stuck in a rut, that we're not getting any better.

River, I think your right on PC its time to start holding him accountable. He has too much power and before RW he was Fired 2X, left USC in a mess and was sub Par with us before Wilson. Moreover, his draft have been all over the map, i dont have any faith in PC to find OLine talent. This is THE defining year for the Pete Carroll era.

[Hawktawk]

I get the feeling that we're another NY Giants, content with Eli Manning and Tom Coughlin. It took them 4 years before they figured out that it wasn't working anymore.

You're right about Pete raising the expectation bar. If Lions fans could peer into our comments, they'd laugh themselves silly at our being upset with 5 playoff appearances in 6 years, the most recent achievement being winning our division with a 12-4 mark. But at some point, we're going to have to admit to ourselves that we're stuck in a rut, that we're not getting any better.

Doug peterson got fired 3 seasons after doing something no coach had ever done in Philly and having produced a playoff team last season. PC hasn't been past the divisional in 6 seasons... The standard for what's acceptable is different all over the league but in the case of the giants they either missed the playoffs or won the SB. Their biggest problem and the one that sunk Coughlin was an inconsistent QB who was iconic in the community who was increasingly mistake prone and impossible to win with in the end.Its a lesson they still dont have a proven replacement several years later

I hope we're not another Texans. A team with a dynamic QB who could run around and make plays and drag the team to the postseason. A few too many trades and cuts and Watson couldn't do it alone anymore last year. The team utterly collapsed despite Watson putting up good numbers and so he wants out. So far management there is saying the same thing as Seattle. He's going nowhere. Its just going to be interesting what actually happens.

[RiverDog]

River, I think your right on PC its time to start holding him accountable. He has too much power and before RW he was Fired 2X, left USC in a mess and was sub Par with us before Wilson. Moreover, his draft have been all over the map, i dont have any faith in PC to find OLine talent. This is THE defining year for the Pete Carroll era.

I'm not jumping off the bandwagon just yet. We're 23-9 over the past two seasons, the 4th best record in the league, better than everyone except the Chiefs, Packers, and Saints, so there is some reason for optimism.

I'm not down on our OL as badly as you are. They're not the best position group on our team and we need to get better, but if you look at the PFF rankings, which has become accepted as the gold standard of position evaluation, they're ranked 14th overall and 16th in pass protection. That's in the top half of the league. They are not the biggest problem area on the team.

[RiverDog]

Doug peterson got fired 3 seasons after doing something no coach had ever done in Philly and having produced a playoff team last season. PC hasn't been past the divisional in 6 seasons... The standard for what's acceptable is different all over the league but in the case of the giants they either missed the playoffs or won the SB. Their biggest problem and the one that sunk Coughlin was an inconsistent QB who was iconic in the community who was increasingly mistake prone and impossible to win with in the end.Its a lesson they still dont have a proven replacement several years later

I hope we're not another Texans. A team with a dynamic QB who could run around and make plays and drag the team to the postseason. A few too many trades and cuts and Watson couldn't do it alone anymore last year. The team utterly collapsed despite Watson putting up good numbers and so he wants out. So far management there is saying the same thing as Seattle. He's going nowhere. Its just going to be interesting what actually happens.

Good point about Pederson. Another example of the firing of a coach that had been relatively successful is Mike McCarthy of the Packers. In 12+ seasons with the Packers, McCarthy finished 1st or 2nd in their division 10 times. Like Pete, McCarthy's problem was winning in the playoffs. Following their Super Bowl run in 2010, McCarthy's playoff record was 5-6, comparable to Pete's 3-5 playoff record since our last SB appearance.

There comes a point where won/loss records, division titles, and playoff appearances are no longer good measures of success.

[Aseahawkfan]

The season ended on a huge dud, one and done in the first round. We let a team that we had beaten rather decisively a few weeks earlier beat us on our home field with a QB that had a broken finger on his throwing hand.

Pete has been our coach since 2010. In his first 5 years, our playoff record was 7-3. In the past 6 years, that record is 3-5. We seem doomed to mediocrity. We perform just well enough to keep our draft position in the mid 20's. At some point, we have to not be satisfied with "pretty good" and start shooting for the moon.

I'm willing to give Russell and/or Pete one more season to at least get us deep into the playoffs or I'm off the bandwagon, blow up the team and start over again.

And what are you going to do if we switch coaches and QBs and do worse for the next decade plus? Keep asking for a new QB and coach every year?

12-4 and the playoffs is the kind of mediocrity most teams would prefer. I guess being a perennial playoff contender is insufficient for Seattle fans now, when they would have begged for this in decades past.

We are going for the moon every year. But everyone not named Tom Brady, they see the moon the once or twice a decade.

You may hate Tom Brady, but he is literally the only QB to reach this so called moon you're talking about in the salary cap era. Him alone.

Aaron Rodgers? 1 SB win like Wilson. Ben R? 2, so he's one ahead of Russell. Peyton Manning? 2 rings.

Your criteria has morphed to where perennial playoff contender with a top 5 QB is mediocrity in your mind. You would have loved to be in this position in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s. Chuck and Holmgren never gave you this good a team or QB.

[Aseahawkfan]

Good point about Pederson. Another example of the firing of a coach that had been relatively successful is Mike McCarthy of the Packers. In 12+ seasons with the Packers, McCarthy finished 1st or 2nd in their division 10 times. Like Pete, McCarthy's problem was winning in the playoffs. Following their Super Bowl run in 2010, McCarthy's playoff record was 5-6, comparable to Pete's 3-5 playoff record since our last SB appearance.

There comes a point where won/loss records, division titles, and playoff appearances are no longer good measures of success.

They are a lesson. As in where are those teams now? They doing a whole lot better without those coaches?

We are one hot year away from another Super Bowl every year during Pete Carroll. I think Russ and Pete have one more Super Bowl run in them if Pete and John can get the defense rebuilt.

[RiverDog]

Good point about Pederson. Another example of the firing of a coach that had been relatively successful is Mike McCarthy of the Packers. In 12+ seasons with the Packers, McCarthy finished 1st or 2nd in their division 10 times. Like Pete, McCarthy's problem was winning in the playoffs. Following their Super Bowl run in 2010, McCarthy's playoff record was 5-6, comparable to Pete's 3-5 playoff record since our last SB appearance.

There comes a point where won/loss records, division titles, and playoff appearances are no longer good measures of success.

They are a lesson. As in where are those teams now? They doing a whole lot better without those coaches?

The Packers are no worse off, and arguably better off, with LaFleur as they were with McCarthy. LaFleur has gone 26-6 with one appearance in the NFCCG in his first two seasons. The Eagles just fired Pederson this season.

We are one hot year away from another Super Bowl every year during Pete Carroll. I think Russ and Pete have one more Super Bowl run in them if Pete and John can get the defense rebuilt.

Understood and agreed. But on the other hand, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. At some point, being one hot year away no longer cuts it, at least in my book.

We'll see. Last year was weird, with no summer camp, no preseason, and no fans in the stands, so I'm willing to give Pete a pass. But I'm getting damn anxious. I'm growing weary of the excuses and I'm getting damn tired of being told to shut up and be happy that we won the division or made the playoffs.

[NorthHawk]

The Packers have improved, the Seahawks have not.
They addressed their pass rush problems and their Offense is still formidable but they need a couple more pieces.
They were just a Defensive hold (and no Offensive hold on the same play even though the Tackle had a sleeper hold on the Packers DE) away from at least having a chance to come back for a score.
We get blown out by a team that we beat earlier in the season. That's the difference. We don't deserve to go deep into the playoffs with our current formula.

[RiverDog]

The Packers have improved, the Seahawks have not. They addressed their pass rush problems and their Offense is still formidable but they need a couple more pieces. They were just a Defensive hold (and no Offensive hold on the same play even though the Tackle had a sleeper hold on the Packers DE) away from at least having a chance to come back for a score. We get blown out by a team that we beat earlier in the season. That's the difference. We don't deserve to go deep into the playoffs with our current formula.

The other difference is that the Packers had to slip to 6-9-1 and 3rd place in their division before management realized that McCarthy's system no longer worked.

[Aseahawkfan]

The Packers have improved, the Seahawks have not.
They addressed their pass rush problems and their Offense is still formidable but they need a couple more pieces.
They were just a Defensive hold (and no Offensive hold on the same play even though the Tackle had a sleeper hold on the Packers DE) away from at least having a chance to come back for a score.
We get blown out by a team that we beat earlier in the season. That's the difference. We don't deserve to go deep into the playoffs with our current formula.

And the Packers could fall off a cliff next year having failed to return to the Super Bowl

Sorry, 12-4 is not a failure and division title is not getting worse. The Rams have a formidable defense which as is usually the case wins in the playoffs.

As far as would've, could've, should've, Rodgers has the same number of Super Bowls as Russell including 2 years under a new coach.

[Hawktawk]

And the Packers could fall off a cliff next year having failed to return to the Super Bowl

Sorry, 12-4 is not a failure and division title is not getting worse. The Rams have a formidable defense which as is usually the case wins in the playoffs.

As far as would've, could've, should've, Rodgers has the same number of Super Bowls as Russell including 2 years under a new coach.

Good point. Russ actually has 2 SB appearances but I think we can chart his double clutch actions in the pocket sometimes to the last throw of that game. But he's arguably been better than Rodgers at winning. Or he and Carroll or whatever than Rodgers. Although anyone would say Rodgers is the better QB in the traditional sense.Rodgers has won more divisionals

I've said it before. Its like the thread says. "RW vents about the hits he's taken" . I watched an episode of Mark Schlereth with Cowherd and the various QB controversies around the league . Schlereth said of Russells complaints about his line "I think he needs to take some accountability. Over the years doing their games I have felt that he runs around and makes amazing schoolyard plays. But holding the ball creates more pressure. I've felt that Russell is responsible for a LARGE NUMBER of his sacks throughout his career". If you're getting hit and sacked too much you need to get rid of the ball faster". "We graded every sack in the film room after a game and assigned it to the person most responsible and its surprising how often it was the QB responsible"

It's what we all see. It's a double edged sword with the guy who never gives up and lives to play another down . His poor play affected our offense the entire last half of the season with few exceptions then we get the tired of getting hit line from him.. We all want it to work out but this whole row started with Schottie gone obviously against Russ wishes and now Russ demanding control over GM type decisions. Just not sure how it all works out in the end.Of course 12-4 isn't in decline yet but half one and half 2 of season marked sharp decline in our offense. Blip on the radar screen or something worse?

[Aseahawkfan]

Good point. Russ actually has 2 SB appearances but I think we can chart his double clutch actions in the pocket sometimes to the last throw of that game. But he's arguably been better than Rodgers at winning. Or he and Carroll or whatever than Rodgers. Although anyone would say Rodgers is the better QB in the traditional sense.Rodgers has won more divisionals

I've said it before. Its like the thread says. "RW vents about the hits he's taken" . I watched an episode of Mark Schlereth with Cowherd and the various QB controversies around the league . Schlereth said of Russells complaints about his line "I think he needs to take some accountability. Over the years doing their games I have felt that he runs around and makes amazing schoolyard plays. But holding the ball creates more pressure. I've felt that Russell is responsible for a LARGE NUMBER of his sacks throughout his career". If you're getting hit and sacked too much you need to get rid of the ball faster". "We graded every sack in the film room after a game and assigned it to the person most responsible and its surprising how often it was the QB responsible"

It's what we all see. It's a double edged sword with the guy who never gives up and lives to play another down . His poor play affected our offense the entire last half of the season with few exceptions then we get the tired of getting hit line from him.. We all want it to work out but this whole row started with Schottie gone obviously against Russ wishes and now Russ demanding control over GM type decisions. Just not sure how it all works out in the end.Of course 12-4 isn't in decline yet but half one and half 2 of season marked sharp decline in our offense. Blip on the radar screen or something worse?

I don't take Russell's comments as blaming his O-line. They're spinning it that way. I'm pretty sure Russell is aware he needs to get the ball out faster, maybe that has more to do with the offense than Russ. Maybe we need more a WCO style with fewer long plays that require he run around waiting for the better play. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Joe Montana all had amazing offenses just making sure the balled moved whether pass or run. You don't need to hit it deep all the time. Sometimes a nice series of short passes works just as well as a big play.

[NorthHawk]

He did say he has to improve, too.
The WCO considers short passes to the RBs as the same as run plays. We almost never do that, but like I said in another thread, it also requires the QB take the required steps and throw, not wait for the longer plays to develop
in case someone comes open. It's a different concept from the current drop back and scramble until a chunk play is available or a running opportunity. It's changed quite a bit from Walsh's original WCO and if you watch KC, you
see some basic elements of it mostly on the shorter throws, crossing routes, and use of Kelcey. It's an element that's been missing from our Offense the last 10 years.