O - Line performing drastically better than 2015 group

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Yup, fix the tackle spot(s). Also, tell me who you let go of elsewhere to make it happen.

[Hawktawk]

Whoever you need to. Schneider is smart enough to figure this out. It was embarrassing watching our tackles get mauled.

[c_hawkbob]

I don't think we're as broke as everybody seems to. We can do what needs to be done.

[NorthHawk]

But it affects next years contracts, too when trading for someone like Thomas or Staley as they have backloads (if I remember correctly). Both Kam and Mike B. would be pretty hard to replace if it came to it.

[RiverDog]

And yet after Sowell went out, less pressures, no sacks and triple the amount of production by the offense...

Your claim was the worst line in 40 years... Now you want to claim worst tackles? OK.

You want to vent, go right ahead, I really am not offended by it. The proof is in the pudding do to speak, Seattle has allowed less pressures, and less sacks than recent lines. Just the way it is... Have you forgotten so much history? How about 10 sacks against KC ( wonder what the reaction was after that game? Probably not much as they won)or the Seahawks record number of sacks in 92'?

This line played poorly tonight, no doubt about it, exaggeration to claim them the "worst" Hawks line in history.

It's not just sacks and pressures. For the past 4 straight years, we've been in the top 3 in rushing the ball. Wanna guess where we're currently at? 27th. Sure, Russell's been hurt, Lynch retired, and Rawls hasn't played much. But the offensive line has to share in some of that blame. That's one helluva drop.

Last night's performance was the worst I've seen out of a Seahawk offense since Zorn and Co. played the Rams with Fed Dryer and Jack Youngblood.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I trust the front office when it comes to making personnel moves. They are not idiots, and they know the need at the tackle spots. I'm not going to believe for a second that they didn't consider possible trades and all available free agents and draft prospects this offseason. They know their jobs, they know NFL talent, and they know cost, both present value and years to come. I'm going to go with this is the best they can do under the current circumstances. When they can do better, they'll do better.

[NorthHawk]

So what happens now if we don't make any additions?
I suspect Gilliam would move to LT where he was expected to play this year and Webb would be in the picture as well, either at G or T with Ifedi moving to RT if Webb moves to G.
That would give us a huge right side of the line that should be able to move opposing DLs for the run game, not to mention some big obstacles on the right to at least have the DE go around them on passing downs.

I think what this last game showed us was what Lynch brought to the team. One big run where he broke tackles and pushed the pile could have ignited the Offense to greater things. That can't be replaced, so the OL has to make up for the difference.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Well, Sowell definitely has an MCL sprain, so I think it unfolds exactly as you have laid out, NorthHawk. Gilliam at LT, Webb at RG, and Ifedi at RT. Fant is an interesting prospect, but he is as green as the day is long. Despite his relief duty last night, I don't think they keep him there moving forward.

[Hawkstar]

So what happens now if we don't make any additions?
I suspect Gilliam would move to LT where he was expected to play this year and Webb would be in the picture as well, either at G or T with Ifedi moving to RT if Webb moves to G.
That would give us a huge right side of the line that should be able to move opposing DLs for the run game, not to mention some big obstacles on the right to at least have the DE go around them on passing downs.

I think what this last game showed us was what Lynch brought to the team. One big run where he broke tackles and pushed the pile could have ignited the Offense to greater things. That can't be replaced, so the OL has to make up for the difference.

Is Webb Healthy? If so, I wonder why didnt go with this line up last night. Perhaps to many in game changes to make. I liked the idea of Webb and Ifedi on the same side, they showed the occasional power of two huge bodies working together, but to your point - they take up a lot of space.

[Hawk Sista]

I think what this last game showed us was what Lynch brought to the team. One big run where he broke tackles and pushed the pile could have ignited the Offense to greater things. That can't be replaced, so the OL has to make up for the difference

While I miss Beast Mode as much or more than anyone, the number one reason we are running the ball less effectively this year is Wilson's injuries. Pete did not even try to qualify that last night.... whereas in past weeks he and RW would both go on and on about how fine he was, Pete said the numbers are the numbers and "it's (RW's limited ability due to being injured on both legs) a factor." It is not only a factor, it is THE factor. When #24 went down last year, Rawls and later Michael did quite fine pounding the rock. Go back to Marshawn's numbers before and after RW came to town and compare. It is the threat of RW's legs that helps our run game into the upper echelon - and without it, we are predictable and one-dimensional...or less-dimensional anyway. This is not to undersell what Beast Mode meant to this team. He was important, he was a once in a generation type back who I think deserves a gold jacket. And yes, we miss him. What's killing us is that RW is hurt AND the O-line is crappy. If only one of those were true, we could move the ball better than we do.

And as far as sacks and pressures being down - yes, they are. But what is also down is RW scrambling for 10 minutes and holding onto the ball. The ball is getting out of his hands so much more quickly that I think even last year's line would have had fewer pressures and sacks as well. #JoeThomas

[Hawk Sista]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... joe-thomas

[HumanCockroach]

Because Webb is that incredibly bad..... That's why they put Fant in ( Webb really is putrid). Truth is as poor as Sowell looked last night, Webb is ten times worse. Ifedi hasn't practiced there ( minus moments in training camp) and it would have been detrimental to him, and dangerous to Wilson Hawkstar...

[NorthHawk]

While I miss Beast Mode as much or more than anyone, the number one reason we are running the ball less effectively this year is Wilson's injuries. Pete did not even try to qualify that last night.... whereas in past weeks he and RW would both go on and on about how fine he was, Pete said the numbers are the numbers and "it's (RW's limited ability due to being injured on both legs) a factor." It is not only a factor, it is THE factor. When #24 went down last year, Rawls and later Michael did quite fine pounding the rock. Go back to Marshawn's numbers before and after RW came to town and compare. It is the threat of RW's legs that helps our run game into the upper echelon - and without it, we are predictable and one-dimensional...or less-dimensional anyway. This is not to undersell what Beast Mode meant to this team. He was important, he was a once in a generation type back who I think deserves a gold jacket. And yes, we miss him. What's killing us is that RW is hurt AND the O-line is crappy. If only one of those were true, we could move the ball better than we do.

Pete says a lot of things and often they aren't true.
In Lynch's last good year he broke more than 100 tackles. That is on average 6 to 7 per game and it was double what any other RB in the league had.
That is significant and makes up for some of the lack of blocking. As well it sparks the whole team to excel. It was said on a number of occasions by both Defensive and Offensive players that watching Marshawn on a semi beast quake type run amped up the intensity of their own game. That's what stats can't and don't show, the emotional value of a player making a huge effort play. It creates and changes momentum.

We won't find another RB like that, but the production and emotional lift has to be made up somewhere, and it falls to the OL to play well enough to make it possible so we have to find another way to make big or consistent plays that can create that momentum we seem to be lacking.

So far, the interior of the OL has been playing pretty well, but the edges need work. I wonder and hope that if Webb plays alongside Ifedi on the right side, they can physically dominate in the run game so as to set up the pass and take some pressure off of Russ having to throw more than pass as has happened a lot this year.

[Hawktawk]

There will never be another Beast. In much the same way as Wilson he outperformed his line allowing Seattle to spend money elsewhere. But I agree wholeheartedly with Sis.Russ is our offensive MVP and his injuries prove it more and more.
Russ's injuries are directly affecting the running game for the backs and the fact that he was around 500 yards rushing per season devastates the stat sheet when he has 33 after 6 games.Teams can play seattle completely different when they know Russ wont gash them.
Maybe when Rawls gets back it will improve but I cant say there was really much of a commitment to run last Sunday. Its back on Bevfool as much as anything else.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I don't think the Seahawks are broke; a Google search says they've got around 6 million in cap space, but I know Schneider knows this. Again, he's looking ahead, and if he knew he could fit a guy like Thomas or Staley (whose teams have stated they will not trade) under the cap via trade for the next few years without losing players he wants to keep, then he would do it.

They definitely have to find an answer to the protection woes, but, for now, they have to press on with what they have. New Orleans may be a good time to see what Fant is made of; they have no premier pass rushers to speak of. By the same token, they could move Gilliam to LT, Ifedi to RT, and insert Webb at RG. It will be tough sledding for the offense, but we've seen they can find there game mid season, and the teams record is much better at this point than it was last year.

[HumanCockroach]

http://sea.247sports.com/Bolt/Pete-Carr ... y-48503783

#pipedream

[obiken]

We need to make a trade. Having German at Guard has stopped the pressure up the middle. It does no good to compare last year with this year. We just have to pray no one on the defense gets hurt!!

[obiken]

AMY word on Kam coming back? SOON!

[HumanCockroach]

Of course it doesn't..... That would destroy the "they don't care" or " they don't want improvement" story.

[NorthHawk]

When trading for a player, it has to be kept in mind that you inherit the existing contract which in many cases is backend loaded, meaning next years and years following salary cap hits could be much greater than this year and might seriously impact re-signing existing Pro Bowl players like Kam and Mike B. Add in the age of the player, and it might not fit the value matrix.

[RiverDog]

So what happens now if we don't make any additions?
I suspect Gilliam would move to LT where he was expected to play this year and Webb would be in the picture as well, either at G or T with Ifedi moving to RT if Webb moves to G.
That would give us a huge right side of the line that should be able to move opposing DLs for the run game, not to mention some big obstacles on the right to at least have the DE go around them on passing downs.

I think what this last game showed us was what Lynch brought to the team. One big run where he broke tackles and pushed the pile could have ignited the Offense to greater things. That can't be replaced, so the OL has to make up for the difference.

That's a lot of changes to replace one player. They said earlier in the season that they didn't want to move Ifedi around and wanted him to get comfortable and learn the guard position so I'd be surprised if they moved him now. My guess is that they'll go with Fant or Webb at LT and leave everyone else where they're at.

I just don't see how we're going to compete with teams featuring strong pass rushes like Philly, Minnie, the Lambs, and Arizona if we don't get some immediate help at tackle. I have to believe that even though the HC's for Thomas and Staley, the two most often mentioned possibilities, have come out and said publically that they're not on the trading block, that Schneider is working behind the scenes to cut a deal. I don't see us getting back to the SB with our current tackles, a problem made even worse now that Sowell is going to be out a couple of games.

[NorthHawk]

I just don't see how we're going to compete with teams featuring strong pass rushes like Philly, Minnie, the Lambs, and Arizona if we don't get some immediate help at tackle. I have to believe that even though the HC's for Thomas and Staley, the two most often mentioned possibilities, have come out and said publically that they're not on the trading block, that Schneider is working behind the scenes to cut a deal. I don't see us getting back to the SB with our current tackles, a problem made even worse now that Sowell is going to be out a couple of games.

Are you suggesting they have been looking for replacements all year? I somehow doubt it as the most players available were at the start of the year before the injuries hit across the league. If they thought it was a problem early, they would have made a move then.

I think they are going to try to ride this out for a few games until Sowell returns. But I could be wrong as trade deadlines often create more focus and bigger gambles.
The problem is the money and age of the better OL that MIGHT be available.

[RiverDog]

Are you suggesting they have been looking for replacements all year? I somehow doubt it as the most players available were at the start of the year before the injuries hit across the league. If they thought it was a problem early, they would have made a move then.

I think they are going to try to ride this out for a few games until Sowell returns. But I could be wrong as trade deadlines often create more focus and bigger gambles.
The problem is the money and age of the better OL that MIGHT be available.

I don't know, North. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part that they're trying to find a solution to this problem. I have to believe that our brain tust recognizes what most of us here do, which is that our current tackles on our roster are not up to the challenge and that they're trying to fix it. We're not Cleveland, Oakland, or the Jets that are simply trying to make the playoffs or win their division. Our goal to get back to the Super Bowl and bring home another Lombardi, and right now, I'm having a hard time visualizing that.

[burrrton]

Heard a rumor Kam got a DWI last night...

Looking for confirmation.

[HumanCockroach]

Tukuafu the mummy back, back again Spillers gone, tell a freind.... Lol...

Expect more "heavy" sets ( thank god, I f#cking hate Bevells empty sets with a non mobile Wilson)..

[NorthHawk]

I thought Spiller could play a role. He has more of a burst than Prosise, but at 30 he's on the downside of his career.
I wonder if they are going to keep all of the their RB's when Rawls returns.

[Hawkstar]

Saw a mention on ESPN that Russ was limited in practice today because of a new injury - Pectoral. The guy isn't going to last with his mobility limited.

[obiken]

Saw a mention on ESPN that Russ was limited in practice today because of a new injury - Pectoral. The guy isn't going to last with his mobility limited.

Sadly I agree, and I predicted it, to the hatred of Human. WISH I WAS WRONG!! our OL just sucks.

[RiverDog]

Sadly I agree, and I predicted it, to the hatred of Human. WISH I WAS WRONG!! our OL just sucks.

Our OL might suck but hey, they're drastically better than the 2015 group!

[Zorn76]

If Sowell and Gilliam were high rd draft picks, then it'd be a bigger deal. As it is, those two guys will be gone next year.

I don't have an issue with the line given its current state, so much as I do our OC. He consistently under utilizes quick hitting routes. Those have improved with Graham in the mix, but we really need more of a steady diet than what we've had overall. Especially on the road. That said, there will be plenty of opportunities in New Orleans.

Our players have also made their respective coordinators look good, rather than vice versa.

[HumanCockroach]

Good Lord. Wilson has an ankle injury that occurred by not being hit, but stepped on, an MCL Spain that occurred because he decided to run instead of throw the ball, and a pectoral injury because he decided to keep the ball on a read option instead of handing the ball to Micheal.... ZERO of those injuries can be attributed to the line.

If you have an issue with Wilson being injured this year, maybe you should talk about the guy making the decisions to Put himself in the position to get injured.

[HumanCockroach]

By the by, Seattle has played 6 games, the line as a whole played average in one ( win Miami) above average in three ( all three wins Atlanta, Jets, Niners) and poor in two ( Rams loss Cardinals tie) anyone claiming this is the "worst" line in history isn't being objective, but looking for any reason to further their original feelings about the line.Wilson is injured, and need look no further than the mirror to find who's responsible for that situation, his decisions led directly to the two most recent ones ( pectoral and MCL) and a crappy fluke led to the other.

[NorthHawk]

[quote="HumanCockroach"]Good Lord. Wilson has an ankle injury that occurred by not being hit, but stepped on, an MCL Spain that occurred because he decided to run instead of throw the ball, and a pectoral injury because he decided to keep the ball on a read option instead of handing the ball to Micheal.... ZERO of those injuries can be attributed to the line.

If you have an issue with Wilson being injured this year, maybe you should talk about the guy making the decisions to Put himself in the position to get injured.[/quote

I think Wilsons's Pectoral injury occurred when he was strip sacked as he was in the process of throwing. It happened near our goal line and you could see him shaking his arm after that.
The DE that hit him came from the blind side.

[HumanCockroach]

According every report I read it was on the read option play that he should have handed to Micheal but kept. Being pulled down by his FM while stiff arming the player.

I haven't seen a single reference to the strip sack as the play that caused the injury.

Even IF that's the case, I'm not entirely sure that it's realistic to expect a strip sack off the edge to never occur. It's football, those plays happen all the time, and to lines many believe are great lines. It's a normal football play no matter what people want to believe.

[HumanCockroach]

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2016/10/27/13 ... nsive-line

What's that.... Trading for or overpaying for tackles isn't a great idea??? Heresy, heresy I say !

[HumanCockroach]

Some interesting information in this article... Line play at the top, but also an answer to why Hawks don't wear throwbacks...

http://www.seahawks.com/news/2016/11/02 ... eahawks-qa

Didn't think it deserved a whole new thread so plopping it here...

[Hawktawk]

Blame Wilson.......here we go.
I was at the stadium for Miami. The line didn't play average, they played horrible. it weren't Russ it would have been a lot worse.

When I saw the ACL I said season over and he still hasn't missed a practice.
The pec was hurt hitting a helmet with his arm being strip sacked while attempting to throw in the AZ game which was one of the most embarrassing performances by a pair of tackles in our history. I saw him moving his arm back and forth and holding it after the play.It was originally feared he had torn his rotator cuff and my guess is its worse than reported as was the ankle and MCL.
This year Russ has played through injuries that would have sidelined almost any other player in literally every game including leading a game winning drive vs Miami shortly after suffering a high ankle sprain.

They are 4-2-1. The Rams loss they had over a hundred yards of offense taken away on penalties including 3 ridiculous OPI and were a Michael fumble away from possible winning the game at the end. AZ missed field goal or W. Saints throwing in the end zone to win was missed by a few inches with one of the most biased lopsided officiating jobs I've seen since XL.

Im proud to support one of the best QB's in the league,whose physical limitations demonstrate what an asset he truly is when healthy.
Anyone who thinks Russ is the problem think again. The haters will get their mouth shut in November and December.

I like the team and have not lost a bit of confidence in them.Its us and Dallas right now IMO.

[c_hawkbob]

Russ is clearly physically hampered with injuries to each leg and his throwing shoulder. A very big part of the reason he is clearly hampred is the offensive line, whether it be the hits he takes due to ineffective blocking - which BTW I do agree is clearly better this year than last (boy is that a low bar) or his feeling like he has to "carry" the offensive load now in the absence of Marshawn. To "blame Wilson" is also an indictment of the O-line and by extension John and Pete. As it should be; this is a team game, our team's shortcomings are a team issue.

The sky really isn't falling though, we're still solidly in first place in our division, we're getting healthy and whether you want to acknowledge it or not the O-line really does look like they could be a decent group as the season goes on.

As for the article linked above, I hope they are correct that the current makeup of our cap distribution pie is more a function of which stars came due for their contracts first and not a team philosophy of skimping on the O-line. Looking back on how it all shook out I can accept that for now. We'll see going forward.

[HumanCockroach]

Actually I put that link there more for the info on the throwbacks that people really want to see ( and why that's not really going to happen unless the NFL changes their policies) not so much the line info ( though cutting sacks 2/3rds seems important).

[NorthHawk]

Russ is clearly physically hampered with injuries to each leg and his throwing shoulder. A very big part of the reason he is clearly hampred is the offensive line, whether it be the hits he takes due to ineffective blocking - which BTW I do agree is clearly better this year than last (boy is that a low bar) or his feeling like he has to "carry" the offensive load now in the absence of Marshawn. To "blame Wilson" is also an indictment of the O-line and by extension John and Pete. As it should be; this is a team game, our team's shortcomings are a team issue.

The sky really isn't falling though, we're still solidly in first place in our division, we're getting healthy and whether you want to acknowledge it or not the O-line really does look like they could be a decent group as the season goes on.

As for the article linked above, I hope they are correct that the current makeup of our cap distribution pie is more a function of which stars came due for their contracts first and not a team philosophy of skimping on the O-line. Looking back on how it all shook out I can accept that for now. We'll see going forward.

The key to knowing how they value players is Britt if he should progress at C. His contract is up after next year and if they don't re-sign him after a couple of good years, then we will know their philosophy. If they do extend his contract then it would appear it was just a numbers vs talent equation the last few years.