Deflategate Deflated?

[RiverDog]

A pretty reputable organization, the American Enterprise Institute, investigated the Deflategate scandal. In it are some very interesting observations.

https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/ ... report.pdf

The information contained in this report could very well exonerate Tom Brady and the Patriots.

[NorthHawk]

It might not exonerate him, but it could get him off the hook on technicalities.

[Anthony]

It might not exonerate him, but it could get him off the hook on technicalities.

was there any doubt he would find a way out?

[c_hawkbob]

He ain't found a way out of anything, all that report addresses is the Wells report, not Brady's refusal to cooperate with a league investigation (which is a very much bigger deal).

He'll still get at least 2 weeks, and that's only if he gives up the goods he refused to last time.

[RiverDog]

He ain't found a way out of anything, all that report addresses is the Wells report, not Brady's refusal to cooperate with a league investigation (which is a very much bigger deal).

He'll still get at least 2 weeks, and that's only if he gives up the goods he refused to last time.

Good point about Brady's refusal to cooperate, I'd forgotten about that. Nevertheless, this report is IMO going to factor heavily into his appeal. The Wells Report is what the league used to determine the facts, and this seriously undermines its credibility.

[jshawaii22]

I'm shocked that Brady is threatening to sue the NFL. So far none of the interviews by Wells or anyone else have been under any kind of 'oath' with any kind of repercussion for lying.

If it heads down the lawsuit road, all the ballboys, attendants, security personnel and anyone else that the NFL desires, and anyone else the league can show may have knowledge or done this in the PAST, can be forced to give depositions or worse, testify for it in a real court. Lie under oath is a much bigger no-no then doing it with Ted Wells.

Common sense dictates he had something done and has been doing it for years. So have many other QB's (Aaron Rodgers admitted to it) and Kickers have indicated that they have done it, too.

The league just made way too much of it and now they are stuck following through. Should of just admitted it's a bad rule and allowed a certain amount of leeway going forward. But, this is the NFL and nothing they do makes a lot of sense anymore.

[Hawktawk]

Brady is becoming Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, etc. Scream your innocence in spite of OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary. All anyone with a brain needs to do is watch the deer in the headlights interview with a very different type of Brady. Read the testimony of the "deflator". Look at the testimony of the text messages.Think about the fact Brady initially lied about knowing this individual to Wells even though he had already met with the man after the flat balls were discovered and exchanged numerous texts and phone calls.Think about the fact the deflator took the balls to the restroom with him. Guilty as sin. But hey here comes the AEI so its all hogwash.

Its Tom Terrific, all American boy. Hes so arrogant he cant even accept he is just the Cheatriot in chief. And go ahead and sue you self aggrandizing pompous jack wagon. Then everyone is under oath and even more will come out most likely.By the standard set by the NFL in the collective bargaining agreement the preponderance of evidence has clearly been met and exceeded.

This will be interesting to watch unfold from here on out.If Brady doesn't get at least 2 games the whole NFL disciplinary process is a complete farce.

[RiverDog]

I'm a lot more inclined to believe in Brady and the Pats innocence now than I was prior to reading the AEI report. It offered the first reasonable explanation, other than someone tampering with them, as to how the Pats footballs could have tested under pressure yet the Colts were all measured within the standard. But there's still the issue of all the phone and texting activity between Brady and the trainer that is accused of deflating the balls coupled with Brady's refusal to turn over his phone records, so I'm still not convinced.

[Hawktawk]

Yes RD and add to that the fact that the colts balls did not deflate. Also the fact that the Patriots footballs were re inflated at halftime and did not lose air after that. AEI clearly attacks the science but as you say it doesn't explain Bradys behavior in the aftermath of the scandal including lying to Wells and withholding his phone records. It doesn't explain the behavior of two low level equipment guys or explain why the team suspended them. And it sure as heck doesn't explain the deer in the headlights hand in the cookie jar interview conducted by a very sheepish looking Brady in the early days of the controversy. I aint ever buying it but when you are Tom Brady and Robert Kraft you have a lot of friends including apparently;y the AEI so we will see.

[RiverDog]

Yes RD and add to that the fact that the colts balls did not deflate. Also the fact that the Patriots footballs were re inflated at halftime and did not lose air after that. AEI clearly attacks the science but as you say it doesn't explain Bradys behavior in the aftermath of the scandal including lying to Wells and withholding his phone records. It doesn't explain the behavior of two low level equipment guys or explain why the team suspended them. And it sure as heck doesn't explain the deer in the headlights hand in the cookie jar interview conducted by a very sheepish looking Brady in the early days of the controversy. I aint ever buying it but when you are Tom Brady and Robert Kraft you have a lot of friends including apparently;y the AEI so we will see.

It appears that the pressure of the Colts balls may not have been checked with the same gauge that the Pats balls were. That could explain some of the difference between the readings taken as one of the gauges reports pressures about .5 psi below the other. That doesn't explain all of the difference, but it accounts for enough to put the two results into a category where the differences are not as significant.

AEI has been around a long time, since 1938, and are not a fly-by-night organization, and they did an excellent job of laying out their counter argument to the Wells report. It's not clear to me that they have a horse in this race, ie biasing their results in favor of Brady and the Pats.

[Agent 86]

Suspension overturned.....not really surprising.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25288935/report-judge-richard-m-berman-rules-for-brady-overturns-suspension

[NorthHawk]

I said in another thread that this would happen.
The NFL looks like it's being tough and Brady gets no penalty. It's a win-win.

[c_hawkbob]

I said in another thread that this would happen.
The NFL looks like it's being tough and Brady gets no penalty. It's a win-win.

No, it's definitely a lose-win. This commissioner's office is now officially toothless, they'll have to replace Goodell to ever be taken seriously now.

[NorthHawk]

The NFL wins as Golden Boy plays and the money keeps rolling in. Maybe even more than normal because of the high profile all off season.
The NFLPA wins because it begins to rein in the power of the Commissioners Office and the Commissioner himself.

It's a win-win - except for maybe Goodell himself, but he's just a pawn of the owners. If the money they make increases again this year, he will still be their favorite.
If they think he's given them a black eye, and it affects revenue, then he will probably be gone.

[FolkCrusader]

No, it's definitely a lose-win. This commissioner's office is now officially toothless, they'll have to replace Goodell to ever be taken seriously now.

I agree, Bob. The NFL does not have the rights of law enforcement, so the fact is investigations will always be compromised. What the NFL asked for in the CBA was the right to judge such issues expecting members of the NFLPA to cooperate. From here on out players will just not cooperate at all, destroy evidence, and hide behind PA provided lawyers. Goodell's nuts have been effectively cut off. He'll have to be replaced even though it appears a majority of owners supported this suspension.

[Hawktawk]

Its a loss for everyone involved. Goodell is a huge loser. The Judge clearly appeared to be biased towards Tom Brady from the get go. But even at that his remarks and decision IN NO WAY clear Tom Brady of the actual accusations. Rather they attacked the penalty, The damage to Brady's image is permanent which is what he was so desperately trying to avoid.And ultimately the integrity of the league, the brand suffers when someone can commit a blatant rules violation with basically no personal penalty whatsoever imposed. It was an ugly episode all the way around.

Honestly I hope the league doesn't appeal. Its time for some FOOTBALL!!!!!

[NorthHawk]

The league just announced it will appeal the decision.
And on it goes...

[burrrton]

The league just announced it will appeal the decision.
And on it goes...

Ugh.

[mykc14]

The league just announced it will appeal the decision.
And on it goes...

The league has no choice but to appeal. Like Bob said Goodell and the league have lost complete power and need to try and get it back. This is their only choice.

[RiverDog]

No, it's definitely a lose-win. This commissioner's office is now officially toothless, they'll have to replace Goodell to ever be taken seriously now.

I doubt that we see them replace Goodell. He has too much support from the other owners, including Bob Kraft.

But they do need to take a serious look at their disciplinary process, get some sort of agreement with the union on a process where someone or some sort of binding arbitration that can render a final, irrevocable decision without having to take it all the way to a federal court. Most companies and unions agree on binding arbitration, some going so far as to agree on how to select an arbitrator. One contract I was familiar with had a process of each side submitting 10 names off a list provided by the FLRB then alternately crossing off names on each other's list, until two are left, then they flip a coin. I don't see why that wouldn't work with the NFL and their union.

The league put too much faith in the Wells Report, did not consider information provided by organizations such as the one I posted in the OP that gave some viable explanations on how they could have obtained different readings, the accuracy of the testing methods, and so on. It didn't address Brady's uncooperative behavior, but it might have allowed them to separate the two issues into whether or not the balls were tampered with and Brady's refusal to cooperate with the investigation.

[NorthHawk]

The disciplinary process is what's at the heart of the matter in this case, no doubt.
It should put more pressure on the owners to move towards what the NFLPA has wanted and remove the Commissioner as the sole decider of a player's fate.
How much progress towards that end remains to be seen, but it seems to me that they must change the existing process.

Greg Hardy is considering appealing his case, too now.

[Seahawks4Ever]

I seriously doubt that Goodell still has the support of Robert Kraft. Kraft has not had anything good to say about Goodell throughout this deflating issue. I also doubt that Goodell has the support of Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder who are still mad at losing those draft picks in what was supposed to be a "cap less" year. 3 is not enough to topple a commissioner but who knows how many other owners have lost faith in Goodell's ability to run the NFL.

One thing I envision is that the agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA will be reopened at the earliest opportunity. The players may be celebrating now and they may be right because the system for doling out suspensions has been messed up for a long time. I mean, smoking mayjane ganers as much of a suspension as someone who assaults a woman?

But, the NFL will not give up control of the players easily. I expect there will be another strike and/or lockout and it will be a very acrimonious one.

[c_hawkbob]

The NFL should have handled it the way Baseball does a corked bat or a greased ball, toss Brady for the rest of the game and that's the end of it. No courts, no overturned rulings no BS, just handle it within the constructs of the game being played, once the game's over the whole thing is over.

[FolkCrusader]

The NFL should have handled it the way Baseball does a corked bat or a greased ball, toss Brady for the rest of the game and that's the end of it. No courts, no overturned rulings no BS, just handle it within the constructs of the game being played, once the game's over the whole thing is over.

The last corked bat penalty was 8 games (Sammy Sosa.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corked_bat

[c_hawkbob]

8 games in baseball is about the same as a half of football in the NFL.

[RiverDog]

I seriously doubt that Goodell still has the support of Robert Kraft. Kraft has not had anything good to say about Goodell throughout this deflating issue. I also doubt that Goodell has the support of Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder who are still mad at losing those draft picks in what was supposed to be a "cap less" year. 3 is not enough to topple a commissioner but who knows how many other owners have lost faith in Goodell's ability to run the NFL.

One thing I envision is that the agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA will be reopened at the earliest opportunity. The players may be celebrating now and they may be right because the system for doling out suspensions has been messed up for a long time. I mean, smoking mayjane ganers as much of a suspension as someone who assaults a woman?

But, the NFL will not give up control of the players easily. I expect there will be another strike and/or lockout and it will be a very acrimonious one.

Kraft was simply sticking up for his player and posturing for his fan base.

I'm not sure how many votes it would take to unseat a commissioner, either. I do know that a simple majority is all that is needed to elect one. I honestly doubt that a dump Goodell movement could garner even a simple majority if that's all it takes.

[FolkCrusader]

8 games in baseball is about the same as a half of football in the NFL.

Also, baseball salaries are guaranteed so there is no loss of income unless a specific fine is rendered. Just loss of ability to play.

My point is only that it is not dealt with only in the game played. It should also be mentioned that Sosa immediately claimed responsibility for using the bat the he claimed to have for "home run derby" type settings. He never blamed the bat boy for using the bat.

[FolkCrusader]

I seriously doubt that Goodell still has the support of Robert Kraft. Kraft has not had anything good to say about Goodell throughout this deflating issue. I also doubt that Goodell has the support of Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder who are still mad at losing those draft picks in what was supposed to be a "cap less" year. 3 is not enough to topple a commissioner but who knows how many other owners have lost faith in Goodell's ability to run the NFL.

One thing I envision is that the agreement between the NFL and the NFLPA will be reopened at the earliest opportunity. The players may be celebrating now and they may be right because the system for doling out suspensions has been messed up for a long time. I mean, smoking mayjane ganers as much of a suspension as someone who assaults a woman?

But, the NFL will not give up control of the players easily. I expect there will be another strike and/or lockout and it will be a very acrimonious one.

We know there are several owners that fully supported Goodell. How many? I think it is safe to assume more than half. That may change going forward.

As far as Goodell's future. It is no accident that Tod Leiweke has been brought in as COO. COO is the position Goodell held previous to becoming Commissioner. As we all know Leiweke's bread and butter is fan experience not corporate PR. Goodell will either sail out of this mess on the ship Tod fashions, or there will be a sea change with Leiweke taking over.

[Hawktawk]

Goodell had support from a large majority of the owners according to multiple reports. The rest of the league has had it with the Cheatriot way. But this round goes to the liar Tom Brady, the one person most responsible for this entire debacle.
Upon reflecting and listening to opinions from various legal people I support the league appealing this decision. I think the judge was star struck, prejudiced, and went far outside his latitude in adjudicating the decision which basically threatens to gut the authority of the commissioner in not only the NFL but every pro league if this precedent is allowed to stand. Ultimately Tom Brady will likely be retired before this every winds its way through the entire system anyway.

Personally I hope the scandal gives Brady the Tiger Woods syndrome on the field. I'm actively rooting against this cheating liar for the rest of his career.

[NorthHawk]

"We know there are several owners that fully supported Goodell. How many? I think it is safe to assume more than half. That may change going forward.

As far as Goodell's future. It is no accident that Tod Leiweke has been brought in as COO. COO is the position Goodell held previous to becoming Commissioner. As we all know Leiweke's bread and butter is fan experience not corporate PR. Goodell will either sail out of this mess on the ship Tod fashions, or there will be a sea change with Leiweke taking over."

That's an interesting take, FolkCrusader.
Leiweke has been successful in almost every place he's been with experience in other professional leagues so you might be on to something.

[Vegaseahawk]

I wish my fantasy league would've drafted before this news came out. I actually got Brady in the 8th round in a mock draft a few days ago.

[Hawktawk]

NFL network poll do you agree with Tom Brady's suspension being lifted?

42 percent yes 58 percent NO. The on air jocks who have been shills for Brady all along seem surprised but I dont. The fans who aren't Patriot nation get it whether the talkjocks or the judges do or not.

[RiverDog]

NFL network poll do you agree with Tom Brady's suspension being lifted?

42 percent yes 58 percent NO. The on air jocks who have been shills for Brady all along seem surprised but I dont. The fans who aren't Patriot nation get it whether the talkjocks or the judges do or not.

It's pretty difficult to run an unbiased poll on an issue that effects so many different fan bases in different ways. Jets, Dolphin, and Bills fans can be counted on to advocate locking Brady up and throwing the keys away. Seahawk and Cowboy fans probably less so.

[SalmonBB]

AEI report throws a bunch of numbers out as if that was the only determining factor. It's possibly one piece, but not all.

Regardless, I just hope this thing is over. But that's probably wishful thinking...

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[RiverDog]

AEI report throws a bunch of numbers out as if that was the only determining factor. It's possibly one piece, but not all.

Regardless, I just hope this thing is over. But that's probably wishful thinking...

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

They also noted that different gauges were used to measure the PSI of various balls at various times, which throws an unkonwn variable into the equation which could explain the different readings. That was something that wasn't mentioned in the Wells Report and severely compromises the major evidence in the case. If it were me, I would have a hard time disciplining Brady and the Pats on such questionable evidence if it had not been for Brady's refusal to cooperate.

[Hawktawk]

RD geez COME ON!!!!! We can talk about due process and the punishment and all but you are drinking the Kool-Aid when you start talking about pressure gauges etc. THE GUY DID IT. THE BALLS WERE DEFLATED. The texts that are public show it. The men were suspended. The pats paid a huge fine and surrendered draft picks. Brady destroyed his phone then lied about that. He lied repeatedly to Wells and Goodell as has been proven by known facts. He spoke more with those 2 ball boys in the few days after the story broke than in his entire career up till then but he lied about the meetings to wells until confronted with their text stream. The equipment guys lied to the investigators even though one is on film with the balls in an unapproved restroom. They tried to explain away texts like deflator by saying they were trying to lose weight. It bordered on the comical.

That all seems to be forgotten. All world Tom Brady conspired with low level equipment guys to tamper with balls that had been approved for play. Beyond that the report and electronic message trail alludes to the suspicion this was not the first time. The fans get that RD whether you do or not. Frankly the wells report was too kind, too polite

[c_hawkbob]

RD geez COME ON!!!!! We can talk about due process and the punishment and all but you are drinking the Kool-Aid when you start talking about pressure gauges etc. THE GUY DID IT. THE BALLS WERE DEFLATED. The texts that are public show it. The men were suspended. The pats paid a huge fine and surrendered draft picks. Brady destroyed his phone then lied about that. He lied repeatedly to Wells and Goodell as has been proven by known facts. He spoke more with those 2 ball boys in the few days after the story broke than in his entire career up till then but he lied about the meetings to wells until confronted with their text stream. The equipment guys lied to the investigators even though one is on film with the balls in an unapproved restroom. They tried to explain away texts like deflator by saying they were trying to lose weight. It bordered on the comical.

That all seems to be forgotten. All world Tom Brady conspired with low level equipment guys to tamper with balls that had been approved for play. Beyond that the report and electronic message trail alludes to the suspicion this was not the first time. The fans get that RD whether you do or not. Frankly the wells report was too kind, too polite

Not forgotten, disregarded as irrelevant in light of Goodell's botched procedure throughout this case. The insistence on getting Tom to admit guilt to somehow validate the wells report was the biggest error IMO. They should have just accepted his willingness to cop to noncooperation and take a game or two suspension and never let it get to the judges decision. Goodell has to go.

[kalibane]

Doesn't matter how guilty he is. If they did not follow proper procedure it taints everything going forward. Works the same way in the criminal justice system. I think he should be suspended regardless of how small the infraction was but you have to conduct your investigation properly.

End does not justify the means.

[RiverDog]

RD geez COME ON!!!!! We can talk about due process and the punishment and all but you are drinking the Kool-Aid when you start talking about pressure gauges etc. THE GUY DID IT. THE BALLS WERE DEFLATED. The texts that are public show it. The men were suspended. The pats paid a huge fine and surrendered draft picks. Brady destroyed his phone then lied about that. He lied repeatedly to Wells and Goodell as has been proven by known facts. He spoke more with those 2 ball boys in the few days after the story broke than in his entire career up till then but he lied about the meetings to wells until confronted with their text stream. The equipment guys lied to the investigators even though one is on film with the balls in an unapproved restroom. They tried to explain away texts like deflator by saying they were trying to lose weight. It bordered on the comical.

That all seems to be forgotten. All world Tom Brady conspired with low level equipment guys to tamper with balls that had been approved for play. Beyond that the report and electronic message trail alludes to the suspicion this was not the first time. The fans get that RD whether you do or not. Frankly the wells report was too kind, too polite

I still think that Brady should have been punished for his role in the cover-up if not the crime. His behavior was despicable, refusing to cooperate and destroying evidences sought by the league. I just have some major doubts about the evidence. Without reliable measurements of the air pressure in the balls that were supposedly under inflated, all they are left with is a bunch of circumstantial evidence with or without any information that might have been provided by Brady. There is no smoking gun.

Does that refusal to cooperate and destruction of evidence justify suspending him for a quarter of the season? Probably not, but he shouldn't be allowed to get off Scot free, either. I'm with Cbob on this one, rather than insisting that Brady accepted a sloppily done Wells Report, they should have simply accepted the offer of the judge to compromise and proposed to cut the suspension in half. IMO the judge got upset because of the league's stubbornness and threw the whole thing out. To be honest, I wouldn't have accepted the Wells Report, either. It looks like they made some major errors.

[NorthHawk]

I believe the appeal wasn't about guilt or innocence and did not change the outcome to not guilty.
Rather it was about the procedures in place and the Commissioners ability to be the sole judge and decider of appropriate punishment.
Nowhere does the ruling say anything about Brady's guilt or innocence, just that Goodell exceeded his authority, and Judge Berman did discuss the Wells report, but he didn't get into the evidence and make a decision about any wrong doing by Brady or the Pats.

I think it might have been different if someone other than Goodell was the person who heard the appeal - or some type of committee instead of one man.