College Football Players Union?

[RiverDog]

Not yet, but you can bet that they'll be back.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... t-unionize

In my wildest dreams, I never imagined we would ever come close to seeing the day when student athletes could form their own union.

[c_hawkbob]

I don't think they'll ever get the right to unionize. Certainly not unless they are declared employees of the institution.

[burrrton]

I guess I'm fine with paying them and unionizing and whatever else floats their boats, but they have to pay full out-of-state tuition if so. No scholarships.

[burrrton]

I don't think they'll ever get the right to unionize. Certainly not unless they are declared employees of the institution.

Can't disagree. The implications and possible unintended consequences are nearly endless.

All because they don't appreciate the value of their education and they're envious that the schools make money off their sport.

[NorthHawk]

Regardless of whether they ever do unionize, the effect of trying to has made some very good changes for the athletes.
That's really the point of collectivism anyway, and may end up being the best result for all as long as the athletes keep the pressure on the institutions for more positive changes.

[RiverDog]

I don't think they'll ever get the right to unionize. Certainly not unless they are declared employees of the institution.

More like employees of the state. I'm not nit picking here, but the NLRB drew an important distinction, saying that they did not have jurisdiction over state run institutions, only private businesses and their employees. The vast majority of FBS schools are state-run.

It would have been a disaster for the NCAA as it would have allowed for unionization at places like USC and Notre Dame but not WSU or Oregon. Private schools are already at a disadvantage, allowing them to unionize and not the state schools would create even more of a disparity.

And if student athletes can unionize, why can't anyone on work-study do the same? It seems to me like they'd be heading down a slippery slope.

[Seahawks4Ever]

College football and basketball bring in millions of dollars. But there are lots of other college sports like rowing, swimming, volley ball, etc... that don't bring in much money at all. These sports are for both men and women student athletes. College football and basketball SUBSIDIZE these other sports. What sports are college's going to drop if you have to start paying college football and basketball players???????
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These players are NOT employees of the institutions they play for. They get a FULL RIDE ATHLETIC SCHOLARSHIP in return for their participation in their respective sports. That is payment enough! It is only their own fault if they don't take full advantage of it and either don't get a degree or major in "basket weaving".

I could see making some reforms. Such as that once an institution offers a athletic scholarship they cannot drop them it if the he or she gets injured. Just make that scholarship not count against the team's total, but let the kid get an education, it is not their fault they got hurt (in most cases). You could raise the stipends, but you would have to raise it for ALL student athletes even if they don't play one of the "glamour" sports.

But paying these players and making them professional is just wrong and would destroy the integrity of the game. Look up the history of college football, it was more popular than the fledgling NFL because the Red Granges of the game WERE PAID and the best players were college players. Who want s to go back to that era???

Unionizing student athletes is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard of IMHO!

[obiken]

I don't think they should unionize but they should be paid a stipend of 3,000 a month for expenses. How many make millions off these kids. Look at Jonathan Stewart of the Ducks, he had to borrow flight money to get to Carolina to sign his contract. That's just wrong, how many JS jerseys did we sell at Oregon, and he cant get a plane ticket out of the U of O, please.
Problem with Unionizing is the transitional nature of CFB. Moreover, you have title 9 issues. Paying them a stipend is the best way.

[Seahawks4Ever]

You want to blame Title ??? really, you want to go there??? CFB and CBB and the money they bring in pay for ALL of the other non revenue bringing sports and that includes plenty of men's sports as well, not just women's sports.

A stipend yes, but to keep in line with NCAA rules all athletes in all sports should be given the same amount. The athletes should have to sign contracts that if they leave school early and turn pro that they should pay the university back for how much they invested in said athlete. Something has to be done to entice many of these athletes from leaving school early. They should also be encouraged to take their schooling seriously. All athletes (and all students for that matter) should have access to what ever help from tutors they may need.

You start paying athletes and there are going to be dire consequences that would lead to these sports to essentially going "pro".

[NorthHawk]

What's the value of a full ride scholarship - should we guess $30 grand as all schools are different?
It could be said then that they are employees in that they receive the value of the scholarship for playing football.
Therefore they are being paid $30,000 to play.
Unfortunately for them, they don't have the same freedoms any other employee might have, some of which are so minor like a free meal or transportation from an outside source that it's a wonder it hasn't happened earlier.

[burrrton]

Unfortunately for them, they don't have the same freedoms any other employee might have, some of which are so minor like a free meal or transportation from an outside source that it's a wonder it hasn't happened earlier.

THIS is where they'll find my support. I think there are reasonable things they can do for them- spending money, allow reasonable gifts, etc- that are pretty hard to argue against.

Where they lose me is wanting all the benefits of being a high-paid employee ($$) without any of the responsibilities (as mentioned- contracts, taxes, etc).

[burrrton]

What's the value of a full ride scholarship - should we guess $30 grand as all schools are different?

Dude, Wa-fricking-zzu is something like $30 grand per semester.

You're looking at a good half a million dollars for 4 years at virtually every 'major' school in the country. [edit- no you're not- I misread the numbers]

How many people in this country would quit their job this instant to go live the life of a college athlete for 4 years for that much?

[obiken]

You start paying athletes and there are going to be dire consequences that would lead to these sports to essentially going "pro". Really guy, like SMU, OSU, USC, where the hell have you been??? Keep it in line?? Really?? CFB coaches make millions, what does the kid get ooohhh and degree, IF he's not injured, or he isn't cut, or or or. Come on its time to start admitting that CFB is the farm team for the NFL and always has been.
How many of the reforms would have come down the road had NWestern not tried to unionize?? It was a that stupid of an idea it was just misapplied.

Burton no one is talking 30k a semester, we are talking 3k a month big deal.

[NorthHawk]

You start paying athletes and there are going to be dire consequences that would lead to these sports to essentially going "pro". Really guy, like SMU, OSU, USC, where the hell have you been??? Keep it in line?? Really?? CFB coaches make millions, what does the kid get ooohhh and degree, IF he's not injured, or he isn't cut, or or or. Come on its time to start admitting that CFB is the farm team for the NFL and always has been.
How many of the reforms would have come down the road had NWestern not tried to unionize?? It was a that stupid of an idea it was just misapplied.

Burton no one is talking 30k a semester, we are talking 3k a month big deal.

I mentioned $30,000 in the context of a player is being paid that equivalent in the form of a scholarship to play, so they would be considered an employee.

Apparently that is on the low side for major universities.

[RiverDog]

According to what I read, the average cost for tuition and fees for attending a state college or university was slightly less than $10,000 per year. For private schools, that cost jumps to over $30,000/year. You can tack on another $10K for room and board, so you're looking at $20K-$40K per year plus other lessor expenses, like books. Expensive for anyone but nowhere near $.5M for 4 years. Not sure where burrton got his numbers.

But the point is well taken. College athletes on full ride scholarships are getting one helluva deal, the envy of millions of other students that graduate owing tens of thousands of dollars of debt. And they are receiving that benefit not because they might find a cure for the common cold or end world hunger. They are getting compensated to play a game that has no benefit to society other than to entertain a bunch of beer bellied couch potatoes like me.

[c_hawkbob]

According to what I read, the average cost for tuition and fees for attending a state college or university was slightly less than $10,000 per year. For private schools, that cost jumps to over $30,000/year. You can tack on another $10K for room and board, so you're looking at $20K-$40K per year plus other lessor expenses, like books. Expensive for anyone but nowhere near $.5M for 4 years. Not sure where burrton got his numbers.

But the point is well taken. College athletes on full ride scholarships are getting one helluva deal, the envy of millions of other students that graduate owing tens of thousands of dollars of debt. And they are receiving that benefit not because they might find a cure for the common cold or end world hunger. They are getting compensated to play a game that has no benefit to society other than to entertain a bunch of beer bellied couch potatoes like me.

It depends whether you're talking about the cost of you or I attending a school or the cost of the school having a student attend on scholarship. I feel the latter to be the relevant consideration as we are comparing the money an institution or CFB as a whole makes from a player vs. what they spend on the player. Major college athletics makes billions from Football, their cost for the athletes is a pittance.

On the whole I am 100% in favor of a couple hundred dollar a week stipend for all athletes (yes, funded from the major sports like Football and BB) but nothing on an individual basis like a percentage or unionization or anything of the like.

On the individual side however I also think that once a player has graduated or left a school his (or her) likeness should be his/her property and that the player should be paid a reasonable percentage for jersey/game/publication/sales brochure or what have you profits garnered from that likeness.

[RiverDog]

It depends whether you're talking about the cost of you or I attending a school or the cost of the school having a student attend on scholarship. I feel the latter to be the relevant consideration as we are comparing the money an institution or CFB as a whole makes from a player vs. what they spend on the player. Major college athletics makes billions from Football, their cost for the athletes is a pittance.

On the whole I am 100% in favor of a couple hundred dollar a week stipend for all athletes (yes, funded from the major sports like Football and BB) but nothing on an individual basis like a percentage or unionization or anything of the like.

On the individual side however I also think that once a player has graduated or left a school his (or her) likeness should be his/her property and that the player should be paid a reasonable percentage for jersey/game/publication/sales brochure or what have you profits garnered from that likeness.

The discussion as I understood it was what it would cost a non student athlete to attend college on their own funds, or rather, what a full ride scholarship is worth to people like you and me. It would seem to be pretty tough to calculate the actual cost of the scholarship to the state or private university as they derive funds for those scholarships from multiple sources.

The point is that student athletes are getting a benefit that if multiplied by 5 years is worth well over $100,000, not to mention the lifetime opportunities they will get if they follow through and get their degree. I don't mind a small stipend of a couple hundred bucks a month to those who's parents can't afford it, but I do not want to see us start down the slippery slope of paying student athletes for playing a game. A free education is more than enough compensation.

[burrrton]

Not sure where burrton got his numbers.

[edit- those may be annual numbers- not semester]

I misread the numbers- it's like $30K per *year*. Extrapolating from what it cost when I was there to today, $10K didn't sound unreasonable.

My mistake. Still, $30-40K year isn't horrible considering it's for going to school.

[burrrton]

It depends whether you're talking about the cost of you or I attending a school or the cost of the school having a student attend on scholarship. I feel the latter to be the relevant consideration as we are comparing the money an institution or CFB as a whole makes from a player vs. what they spend on the player.

I don't think that's irrelevant, but it's the student athletes whining about not being compensated, so it seems more relevant to look at what they're already receiving, don't you think?

On the whole I am 100% in favor of a couple hundred dollar a week stipend for all athletes

Agree wholeheartedly.

[c_hawkbob]

I don't think that's irrelevant, but it's the student athletes whining about not being compensated, so it seems more relevant to look at what they're already receiving, don't you think?

Agree wholeheartedly.

Is it? If that's the point as you see it fine. I'm dismissing the notion of direct compensation based on some sort of percentage or athlete's right to unionize or whatever as a non-starter. I'm wholly against it and as as such I see it the the point as the cost of a stipend to all athletes to an institution vs the amount of money they take in.

It's a minor difference in how we see the question though, I think you and I and most here are in basic agreement on the answers.

[burrrton]

It's a minor difference in how we see the question though, I think you and I and most here are in basic agreement on the answers.

Fair.

[edit]

Although, I do think it's worth noting that for all D1 schools (128?) to pay all their scholarship players (potentially 85 each) $40K, we're talking about close to half a billion dollars.

Unless I botched the numbers again, paying all scholarshipped players would not be a trivial amount, even for the NCAA.

[edit2]

And I realize you're not arguing for them doing so- just thought that was interesting for those who think the NCAA has enough to do this easily.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think anyone here is advocating paying them according to how much their school makes, rather that they get some money to get them through the year without having to in some cases go hungry or not able to see family in times of emergency. The action at Northwestern seems to have loosened the screws a little and there is probably a lot farther to go, but progress in this type of issue will be incremental. Small, but meaningful changes can take a lot of pressure off of the situation without costing a great deal of money.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

I'm in line with weekly a stipend, and I'd also like to see them have extended scholarships to have the option to finish their degree. Not all of these guys can handle a 12-hour class load and the rigors of a football season, and, at the factory schools, a fair portion of these kids really aren't taking meaningful classes. I saw too many of the football players at Mississippi State have nothing once their eligibility was up and way too many had unrealistic NFL aspirations. Some of them may not even want to finish their degree, but I really wouldn't mind a "hey, you can't play football for us any more, but you've got another 4-6 semesters to finish your degree on the house." I liked when I read this solution on Gregg Easterbrook's column; he was particularly hard on your big football schools with very low graduation rates (a.k.a a lot of Power Conference schools, especially the SEC). A degree would pay dividends longer than a few years worth of being paid by a college.

Something I just thought about being paid, it seems like it would also open the door for very competitive hiring, if you will. That's my be something burrton was alluding to. You get 4 or 5 star recruit thinking he's got it made, but then he under performs and they fire him and go find the next best thing. Why would they spend all this money on a player if he's not performing? These players might want to be careful what they wish for.