obiken wrote:ITS based on last year and how good they were before Palmer went down. They have as good a coach, as good a Qb, a WAY better WR, a better OL, and as good a defense. Moreover, they are not afraid of Seattle at all.
mykc14 wrote:
I would grade those a little different. We have a better coach. We have a better QB. We have a better receiving weapon (Graham).We have a better RB. We have a better D. They have a better OL. Moreover, we are not afraid of them at all. Again, I showed that they really didn't beat anybody great with Palmer. I am not saying that they couldn't or won't they just haven't really. They have also lost their D coordinator. I'm not going to buy into them as a real threat until they beat good teams constantly.
jshawaii22 wrote:
What criteria have you used for these statements? Coach? Arian's not exactly a slouch, but I guess the Ring is the thing, so OK with Pete. QB? Again, it depends if you are counting the rings and wins as a team more then the actual offense they add to each team. Look at Palmers record when he was healthy over the past 2 years. Graham? We haven't thrown to him enough unless you basing this on the past with NO. If you are BASING ON THE PAST, you should look no further then last week's TD pass catching performance by Larry Fitzgerald. He's just as valuable, if not more, as Jimmy Graham. Better RB? Not this year, yet. We have a Better "D". With or without Kam? They have lost their DC? We have lost 2 in 2 years.
I don't see it. Watch their games. Carson Palmer is lethal and if he stays healthy, they will be hard to catch.
obiken wrote:ITS based on last year and how good they were before Palmer went down. They have as good a coach, as good a Qb, a WAY better WR, a better OL, and as good a defense. Moreover, they are not afraid of Seattle at all.
jshawaii22 wrote:What criteria have you used for these statements? Coach? Arian's not exactly a slouch, but I guess the Ring is the thing, so OK with Pete. QB? Again, it depends if you are counting the rings and wins as a team more then the actual offense they add to each team. Look at Palmers record when he was healthy over the past 2 years. Graham? We haven't thrown to him enough unless you basing this on the past with NO. If you are BASING ON THE PAST, you should look no further then last week's TD pass catching performance by Larry Fitzgerald. He's just as valuable, if not more, as Jimmy Graham. Better RB? Not this year, yet. We have a Better "D". With or without Kam? They have lost their DC? We have lost 2 in 2 years.
I don't see it. Watch their games. Carson Palmer is lethal and if he stays healthy, they will be hard to catch.
HumanCockroach wrote:Don't bother Mykc, it isn't worth the time. Some people are just prone to statements like that, as inaccurate as they may be. They are the "Glass completely empty" folks ( not the glass half full, or even half empty) they take it to far, and then continue on, and simply don't know HOW to be optimistic, or in this case REALISTIC.
NorthHawk wrote:I doubt Palmer would do very well in our Offense because of his limited mobility relative to Wilson.
Wilson, on the other hand would give the Cards another dimension on Offense.
This Offense in Seattle doesn't really let the QB show all of his abilities like the Cardinals and other QB friendly Offenses (from a stats PoV).
Lynch, like all RBs needs space to run and as of yet the OL (or play calling) hasn't consistently given him that space.
NorthHawk wrote:I think you underestimate Wilsons arm strength.
The current Seattle Offense doesn't provide many opportunities to show it off, but it's very strong.
All QBs use throwing lanes, and Brees or Wilson aren't exceptions.
HumanCockroach wrote:Sorry Future a LOT of that post makes little to no sense. First of all, Wilson is indeed something the NFL has never seen, it's why people can't "label" him, and have such a hard time deciding if he is great or a game manager, his game is not comparable to any other QB that has come before him, as a whole. Parts and pieces compare to a specific QB, but no QB has ever had that mix.
Secondly, you continue to use QB's like Luck as an example of a big, strong armed QB that can repeatedly throw down the field, and say that is how he makes his living. This is 100% bullspit. Wilson not Luck consistently throws the ball down the field more often, and based on explosive plays, completion percentage, success, turnovers etc is FAR more effective doing it , hence, Lucks YPA and YPC isn't even in the realm of Wilson, Lucks offense is PREDICATED on shorter throws, not longer ones( Wilson uses a running game, Luck sets up the deep pass with his "running game" which happens to be short throws). Where do you get this stuff?
There are offenses predicated on downfield throws, but it isn't Indy's. Pittsburgh, Arizona come immediately to mind.
Futureite wrote:
Wilson throws downfield on broken plays and playaction. We've hashed that out about a million times. If you believe Seattle is running an Arians O, I have no idea what to tell you.
And by the way, if you remember, Arians came from Indy, where he was calling plays for Luck.
Futureite wrote:"It does not matter how he gets it done". Uh yes, it does. A deep fade and the routes Arians asks his QBs to throw are so different mechanically, they cannot even be compared. One is driving the ball with power and in rhythm, the other comes straight over the top and loops. I guarantee I've thrown 1,000's more footballs than you and I know you have no clue whay you are talking about from that statement alone. So cann the Troll crap kid.
But speaking of deep balls, let's go there anyway. Should I repost the YouTube of Andrew Luck throwing 80 yds in practice? And he makes it look easy. According to your boy Doug Baldwin, he can throw 90 yds. But of course Wilson can do this too right?
Youtube it.
HumanCockroach wrote:I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.
As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.
By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).
Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.
It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.
HumanCockroach wrote:I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.
As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.
By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).
Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.
It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.
Futureite wrote:You are missing the point by so much again, I gave no idea how to frame it any differently. You gave the Steelers and Cards as examples of teams that have a vertical pass game that requires a big arm. Sure ss s*** the two QBs for those Os are 6'4 guys with big arms. It's physics. You a big guy with an arm and put 240 lbs behind it and most likely more hip power and he is going to have a WAY easier time making a cross the field throw 10 times in a game than a freaking 5'11 195 LB QB. If you deny this you deny reality. Not only that, but he does not have move around to find a throwing lane.
I know this first hand as former QB bordering 6 ft who could launch a ball 65 yds and put it on a rope anywhere on the field. It also took a lot out of me to make those throws, and evrn in freaking highschool I had a hard time moving to find a throwing lane to put the ball on a lower tradjectory.
I mean, do you think it's just blind coincidence that like 95% of the guys that run this type of O are in the stafford build, and the majority of good WC system QBs are of the smaller, more mobile? Brees, Montana, Rodgers, even your Vick analogy of a strong arm small guy played in TWO WC systems.....Elway, Roethlisberger, Stafford - downfield vertical passing systems.
Again, I didn't say Wilson "can't" make these throws. Hell, I could prob go to a field now at 40 Yrs old and make some of them. Can a guy hit his back foot, set and comfortably make that throw over and over again? In Wilson's case, NO - or they'd be calling it consisently, period. At his arm strength level and stature, those are not the ideal throws for him.
I give you credit for at least rationally debating this and not going the "I disagree so you're a troll" route. I am nit saying Wildon lacks arm, trust me. It's just not the type of arm to do the things you want a QB to do in a certain O. Montana did not have that either. So why do you guys take it as such an insult?
burrrton wrote:A couple of weak games and Futureite returns to the same nonsense he gets strangely quiet about after strong games. Film at 11.
Futureite wrote:The proof that your QB cannot consistently make the throws I am referencing is that your O doesn't run anything remotely close to the type of O the afore mentioned QBs run. You cannot name one big, strong armed QB that runs the read option. Not one. And neither of are experienced enough to recognize that you lose any argument where you attempt to make someone prove a negative. It's impossible to prove a negative.
Your argument is identical to this: "Prove to me Andrew Luck cannot run like Russell Wilson. If you cannot prove it, then shut up Troll". I can make the identical and reverse claim - that Andrew Luck could rack up 900 yds rushing, could extend plays in identical fashion to Russell Wilson, and has the identical skill set but simply is not called upon to do it during games. We both know that Wilson's scrambling/running is unmatched not only in today's NFL, but potentially in the history of the league. Just as the majority of people outside of Seattle have agreed that Luck's arm, footwork and ability to make various throws is "once in a generation" type talent.
The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. I am not even claiming Luck is better here. I am merely citing their varied skill sets. I made it clear at the onset that this was only my opinion, and that even a QB like Joe Montana could not consistently hit those throws - hence the reason Bill Walsh rarely called upon him to do so. Great deep ball thrower like Wilson, but there's an obvious difference between a fade and other downfield throws.
Futureite wrote:
You guys seriously need some perspective. You cannot even identify when you've been insulted.
Futureite wrote:The proof that your QB cannot consistently make the throws I am referencing is that your O doesn't run anything remotely close to the type of O the afore mentioned QBs run. You cannot name one big, strong armed QB that runs the read option. Not one. And neither of are experienced enough to recognize that you lose any argument where you attempt to make someone prove a negative. It's impossible to prove a negative.
Your argument is identical to this: "Prove to me Andrew Luck cannot run like Russell Wilson. If you cannot prove it, then shut up Troll". I can make the identical and reverse claim - that Andrew Luck could rack up 900 yds rushing, could extend plays in identical fashion to Russell Wilson, and has the identical skill set but simply is not called upon to do it during games. We both know that Wilson's scrambling/running is unmatched not only in today's NFL, but potentially in the history of the league. Just as the majority of people outside of Seattle have agreed that Luck's arm, footwork and ability to make various throws is "once in a generation" type talent.
The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. I am not even claiming Luck is better here. I am merely citing their varied skill sets. I made it clear at the onset that this was only my opinion, and that even a QB like Joe Montana could not consistently hit those throws - hence the reason Bill Walsh rarely called upon him to do so. Great deep ball thrower like Wilson, but there's an obvious difference between a fade and other downfield throws.
HumanCockroach wrote:I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.
As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.
By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).
Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.
It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.
Futureite wrote:LOL! "The problem with us is nothing...". I think that statement says plenty.
Here's an idea for you Anthony. Go email those scouts and write "you got nothing but your worthless opinion (which for some reason NFL organizations find are paying you to offer). You got no stats no facts no nothing".
Now go do what you do and go off on some nonsensical tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with rating pure physical tools, tell us how scouts are wrong and how so many players end up being great despite what scouts say, like Richard Sherman. I can see this coming a mile away.
Problem is you have not proven anything you say to be a fact just your opinionFutureite wrote:The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. .
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