0-2 is a disaster.......

[obiken]

ITS based on last year and how good they were before Palmer went down. They have as good a coach, as good a Qb, a WAY better WR, a better OL, and as good a defense. Moreover, they are not afraid of Seattle at all.

[mykc14]

ITS based on last year and how good they were before Palmer went down. They have as good a coach, as good a Qb, a WAY better WR, a better OL, and as good a defense. Moreover, they are not afraid of Seattle at all.

I would grade those a little different. We have a better coach. We have a better QB. We have a better receiving weapon (Graham).We have a better RB. We have a better D. They have a better OL. Moreover, we are not afraid of them at all. Again, I showed that they really didn't beat anybody great with Palmer. I am not saying that they couldn't or won't they just haven't really. They have also lost their D coordinator. I'm not going to buy into them as a real threat until they beat good teams constantly.

[jshawaii22]

I would grade those a little different. We have a better coach. We have a better QB. We have a better receiving weapon (Graham).We have a better RB. We have a better D. They have a better OL. Moreover, we are not afraid of them at all. Again, I showed that they really didn't beat anybody great with Palmer. I am not saying that they couldn't or won't they just haven't really. They have also lost their D coordinator. I'm not going to buy into them as a real threat until they beat good teams constantly.

What criteria have you used for these statements? Coach? Arian's not exactly a slouch, but I guess the Ring is the thing, so OK with Pete. QB? Again, it depends if you are counting the rings and wins as a team more then the actual offense they add to each team. Look at Palmers record when he was healthy over the past 2 years. Graham? We haven't thrown to him enough unless you basing this on the past with NO. If you are BASING ON THE PAST, you should look no further then last week's TD pass catching performance by Larry Fitzgerald. He's just as valuable, if not more, as Jimmy Graham. Better RB? Not this year, yet. We have a Better "D". With or without Kam? They have lost their DC? We have lost 2 in 2 years.

I don't see it. Watch their games. Carson Palmer is lethal and if he stays healthy, they will be hard to catch.

[Anthony]

What criteria have you used for these statements? Coach? Arian's not exactly a slouch, but I guess the Ring is the thing, so OK with Pete. QB? Again, it depends if you are counting the rings and wins as a team more then the actual offense they add to each team. Look at Palmers record when he was healthy over the past 2 years. Graham? We haven't thrown to him enough unless you basing this on the past with NO. If you are BASING ON THE PAST, you should look no further then last week's TD pass catching performance by Larry Fitzgerald. He's just as valuable, if not more, as Jimmy Graham. Better RB? Not this year, yet. We have a Better "D". With or without Kam? They have lost their DC? We have lost 2 in 2 years.

I don't see it. Watch their games. Carson Palmer is lethal and if he stays healthy, they will be hard to catch.

well the only seasons were Palmer played the whole season for the Cards 2013 He had a QB rating of 83.9, 24 tds but 22 ints, 63.3 complt %, and 3 yards rushing, so based on the only full season we have to judge him by Wilson is the better QB. Also since being able to play also factors into who is better you again give the nod to Wilson.

Now to put it easier there is not QB rankings that puts Palmer any place close to Wilson.

Now do I think when healthy he is a very very good QB yes but not better than Wilson

[burrrton]

ITS based on last year and how good they were before Palmer went down. They have as good a coach, as good a Qb, a WAY better WR, a better OL, and as good a defense. Moreover, they are not afraid of Seattle at all.

These are all things that roll off the tongue when they've had a good couple games and we've still been (hopefully) putting things together. We'll see.

[mykc14]

What criteria have you used for these statements? Coach? Arian's not exactly a slouch, but I guess the Ring is the thing, so OK with Pete. QB? Again, it depends if you are counting the rings and wins as a team more then the actual offense they add to each team. Look at Palmers record when he was healthy over the past 2 years. Graham? We haven't thrown to him enough unless you basing this on the past with NO. If you are BASING ON THE PAST, you should look no further then last week's TD pass catching performance by Larry Fitzgerald. He's just as valuable, if not more, as Jimmy Graham. Better RB? Not this year, yet. We have a Better "D". With or without Kam? They have lost their DC? We have lost 2 in 2 years.

I don't see it. Watch their games. Carson Palmer is lethal and if he stays healthy, they will be hard to catch.

Honestly I can't believe that I have to defend those statements to a Hawk fan as they are all pretty obvious, but here you go:
Besides what Anthony already said about RW. Basically any statistic you want to use besides raw yards RW has been better than Palmer, not saying he's a slouch but in 12 seasons he has had 1 season that is comparable to any of RW's. In their prime Fitz was comparable to Graham in that he was the best 1 or 2 at his position but he's not there now (again I'm not saying he is bad or anything like that but Graham is at least comparable). Graham is the top 2 at his position in the NFL, and I'm willing to give him and RW more than 2 games to figure each other out (really its only been 1 bad game as game number 1 wasn't bad at all). So after 2 games Beast is no longer a top 5 back in the NFL? Of course he is maybe you should stop making generalizations after 2 games. Yeah, we lost our D coordinator 2 years ago and were fine last year. I have a feeling we will be fine this year as well. Lets see how they do after they lose a very good D coordinator before we just assume they are going to be better.

[HumanCockroach]

Don't bother Mykc, it isn't worth the time. Some people are just prone to statements like that, as inaccurate as they may be. They are the "Glass completely empty" folks ( not the glass half full, or even half empty) they take it to far, and then continue on, and simply don't know HOW to be optimistic, or in this case REALISTIC.

[RiverDog]

I'm not too worried about "catching" the Cards. It's only Week 3, for God's sake. If we get our own house in order and start winning, things will take care of themselves just like they did last season.

[Hawktawk]

Palmer is serviceable but he isn't Dan Marino. He was better before Kimo cheap shotted his knee. But now he has the classic giraffe syndrome. Keep the pocket clean and run the ball effectively he is plenty good enough. If you can blow up the pocket or stop the run he will wind up handing over the ball with his limited escapability. His last game at the clink he threw 4 picks although the Cards won a wacky weird game I suffered through in the rain.

Obviously at this point Seattle controls its own destiny in the division as long as they start putting together a streak like the last 2 years. Looking at who's left and what I've seen from them so far its a tall order this season.

[NorthHawk]

Their Offense is set up that the QB doesn't have to be great, but just good so comparing QBs doesn't mean much unless they had the same supporting cast.
Wilson would be lethal in their Offense and Palmer in ours wouldn't be much better than Tarvaris Jackson.
These next 2 games are crucial not only for standings, but for getting back to what we do best.
I'm hoping the OL gets going well enough to give Lynch some room to get to the 2nd level, and Bevell starts calling plays that aren't so predictable early in the game.

[NorthHawk]

One statistic I read said Graham was blocking 40% of the time.
I don't know if it was that often in N.O., but I sure hope they aren't trying to turn a silk purse into a sow's ear.
All players on Offense are expected to block, but Graham's forte is receiving, so I hope he gets more involved in that side soon.

[Futureite]

Don't bother Mykc, it isn't worth the time. Some people are just prone to statements like that, as inaccurate as they may be. They are the "Glass completely empty" folks ( not the glass half full, or even half empty) they take it to far, and then continue on, and simply don't know HOW to be optimistic, or in this case REALISTIC.

I agreed with parts of what he posted. Palmer and Wilson are both good for what their team asks them to do. Palmer is a big, strong armed guy that can push the ball downfield, so he works well in Arians O. Wilson is mobile, accurate and throws well off playaction. So he works well in Hawks system. I don't think either would fare particularly well in the other's system. Based on "this" season, you'd have to give edge to Carson so far. Overall, it would obviously go to Wilson.

Receivers? That's hands down AZ. Hard to make any argument otherwise. AZ has Seattle beat in pass game any way you slice it up, though Baldwin is reliable and can make big plays. Even factoring Graham in, the AZ pass game is more dynamic, explosive and reliable.

RB would have to be a push right now. Lynch looks as though he's lost some explosiveness, and David Johnson has shown flashes. Still too early to tell if he is for real or if the Seattle Oline will gel and we'll see the old Lynch.

D? Talent wise there's no question Seattle wins. I expected them to start slow with the myriad of changing parts in the secondary due to injury, holdout etc (another comment that made me a "Troll"), but I did not expect them to fall of a cliff. It shows how important each player is to the scheme (what do ya know, another "Troll" analogy that I stated earlier) and how each player's unique talent is utilized within it. A lot of these players are not great apart from that scheme. Still, I expect them to be a top D by yr's end, and AZ's D clearly will not.

Overall I'd still give edge to Seattle by end of the yr - but not by much. Each yr is always diff. As of right now - today - there is no question AZ is the best team in the Div.

[NorthHawk]

I doubt Palmer would do very well in our Offense because of his limited mobility relative to Wilson.
Wilson, on the other hand would give the Cards another dimension on Offense.
This Offense in Seattle doesn't really let the QB show all of his abilities like the Cardinals and other QB friendly Offenses (from a stats PoV).
Lynch, like all RBs needs space to run and as of yet the OL (or play calling) hasn't consistently given him that space.

[Futureite]

I doubt Palmer would do very well in our Offense because of his limited mobility relative to Wilson.
Wilson, on the other hand would give the Cards another dimension on Offense.
This Offense in Seattle doesn't really let the QB show all of his abilities like the Cardinals and other QB friendly Offenses (from a stats PoV).
Lynch, like all RBs needs space to run and as of yet the OL (or play calling) hasn't consistently given him that space.

I agree that Palmer would not fit Seattle's O. His accuracy and decision making are questionable at times, and he's no longer the mobile QB he was out of USC.

On the otherhand, Arians' O requires a lot of downfield throws in rhythm. Deep digs, posts, etc. He needs a big strong armed guy like Luck or Carson, who can hit their back foot and drive the ball, stand tall in the pocket. Wilson is more akin to Brees, who often times has to slide in the pocket to find throwing lanes. While both guys can put mustard on the ball, their talent is clearly not in consistently making those high velosity downfield throws. Hey, it wasn't Montana's strength either, so it's no insult.

Anyhow, I'd still give edge to Wilson based upon accuracy, decision making and big play/broken play potential. But I think Carson is def playing better as of now, with 7 TDs 1 int. We'll see how that plays out as the season goes.

[NorthHawk]

I think you underestimate Wilsons arm strength.
The current Seattle Offense doesn't provide many opportunities to show it off, but it's very strong.
All QBs use throwing lanes, and Brees or Wilson aren't exceptions.

[Futureite]

I think you underestimate Wilsons arm strength.
The current Seattle Offense doesn't provide many opportunities to show it off, but it's very strong.
All QBs use throwing lanes, and Brees or Wilson aren't exceptions.

Ok now this is just my opinion, but I believe all teams build according to their player's skill set - especiallly at QB. If those type of throws were Wilson's strength, I think it'd be reflected in their O gameplan and the type of players they surrounded him with. It's like I posted - if he had that type of arm talent and incredible mobility + accuracy he'd be something the NFL has literally never seen before.

I don't underestimate his arm at all. He has a very good arm. That's not the point. At 6 ft a QB isn't even tall enough to fire over a highschool Oline. At that height it's just a fact that you either have to move or take a deeper drop to see the field or throw over guys. I know becauae I played at 6 ft and I had an extremely strong arm. Second, although a QB's arm may be technically strong enough to "make" the throw, smaller guys cannot make it over and over again with repetitive accuracy. Guys like Wilson just have to put too much body into a throw like that to do it with any level of consistency . Bigger/strong arm guys like Luck can simply hit their back foot and deliver over and over again with a fluid throwing motion. They can stand it and take a hit doing so. It's no different than looking at a smaller rocket arm pitcher like Tim Lincecum V a big guy like Roger Clemens. Lincecum needed a big windup to hit 95, which works in baseball only because there is no clock to force the throw and no one bearing down on you.

Look at current similar molds to Wilson: Brees has a atrong arm. Rodgers has a strong arm. Yet they both play in more of a west coast style O which relies on short passes and allows them to play outside the pocket.

Now big/strong arm guys: Luck makes his living downfield, frim the pocket. Roethlisberger makes his living standing in the pocket delivering downfield. And yes I know they are both mobile and do throw a lot of short stuff - but the bread and butter of their success is making downfield throws other QBs are not geared to make. Matt Ryan, same thing. On and on. Regardless of whether you feel they are good of QBs or not, they do have a unique skill set that other QBs do not. That is why they were all high first RD picks.

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry Future a LOT of that post makes little to no sense. First of all, Wilson is indeed something the NFL has never seen, it's why people can't "label" him, and have such a hard time deciding if he is great or a game manager, his game is not comparable to any other QB that has come before him, as a whole. Parts and pieces compare to a specific QB, but no QB has ever had that mix.

Secondly, you continue to use QB's like Luck as an example of a big, strong armed QB that can repeatedly throw down the field, and say that is how he makes his living. This is 100% bullspit. Wilson not Luck consistently throws the ball down the field more often, and based on explosive plays, completion percentage, success, turnovers etc is FAR more effective doing it , hence, Lucks YPA and YPC isn't even in the realm of Wilson, Lucks offense is PREDICATED on shorter throws, not longer ones( Wilson uses a running game, Luck sets up the deep pass with his "running game" which happens to be short throws). Where do you get this stuff?

There are offenses predicated on downfield throws, but it isn't Indy's. Pittsburgh, Arizona come immediately to mind.

[Futureite]

Sorry Future a LOT of that post makes little to no sense. First of all, Wilson is indeed something the NFL has never seen, it's why people can't "label" him, and have such a hard time deciding if he is great or a game manager, his game is not comparable to any other QB that has come before him, as a whole. Parts and pieces compare to a specific QB, but no QB has ever had that mix.

Secondly, you continue to use QB's like Luck as an example of a big, strong armed QB that can repeatedly throw down the field, and say that is how he makes his living. This is 100% bullspit. Wilson not Luck consistently throws the ball down the field more often, and based on explosive plays, completion percentage, success, turnovers etc is FAR more effective doing it , hence, Lucks YPA and YPC isn't even in the realm of Wilson, Lucks offense is PREDICATED on shorter throws, not longer ones( Wilson uses a running game, Luck sets up the deep pass with his "running game" which happens to be short throws). Where do you get this stuff?

There are offenses predicated on downfield throws, but it isn't Indy's. Pittsburgh, Arizona come immediately to mind.

Wilson throws downfield on broken plays and playaction. We've hashed that out about a million times. If you believe Seattle is running an Arians O, I have no idea what to tell you.

And by the way, if you remember, Arians came from Indy, where he was calling plays for Luck.

[HumanCockroach]

And yet Luck has never had more explosive plays, average yards per attempt, or average yards per completion than Wilson in his career. Regardless of how the deep ball is thrown (structure of the offense) Wilson still throws it deep with more regularity, and success than Luck, and that simply isn't debatable, because nothing supports it factually. You can claim Arian "came from there" future all you want, the truth is, he hasn't been there in 3 seasons, and even WITH Arian, Luck was not throwing the ball deep with more consistency or success than Wilson. Stop looking at yardage, and start watching football.

Busted or not, Wilson throws one of the best deep balls in the game.Just the way it is man, and nothing makes that different, not his height, or the OC, or where he plays.

[Anthony]

Wilson throws downfield on broken plays and playaction. We've hashed that out about a million times. If you believe Seattle is running an Arians O, I have no idea what to tell you.

And by the way, if you remember, Arians came from Indy, where he was calling plays for Luck.

Dude in the end it does not matter how he does it Wilson throws down field more than Luck and until you can prove with facts there is a throw he cannot make you will be wrong. You are once again opening your mouth with no fact to support it and turning back into the troll I foed. I thought you got beyond this but maybe not. I have no problem with you making a statement but at least have facts to support it or all you are doing is trolling. You have no evidence to support Lucks arm is stronger, none zero so give it up.

[Futureite]

"It does not matter how he gets it done". Uh yes, it does. A deep fade and the routes Arians asks his QBs to throw are so different mechanically, they cannot even be compared. One is driving the ball with power and in rhythm, the other comes straight over the top and loops. I guarantee I've thrown 1,000's more footballs than you and I know you have no clue whay you are talking about from that statement alone. So cann the Troll crap kid.

But speaking of deep balls, let's go there anyway. Should I repost the YouTube of Andrew Luck throwing 80 yds in practice? And he makes it look easy. According to your boy Doug Baldwin, he can throw 90 yds. But of course Wilson can do this too right?

Youtube it.

[HumanCockroach]

I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.

By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).

Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.

It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.

[Anthony]

"It does not matter how he gets it done". Uh yes, it does. A deep fade and the routes Arians asks his QBs to throw are so different mechanically, they cannot even be compared. One is driving the ball with power and in rhythm, the other comes straight over the top and loops. I guarantee I've thrown 1,000's more footballs than you and I know you have no clue whay you are talking about from that statement alone. So cann the Troll crap kid.

But speaking of deep balls, let's go there anyway. Should I repost the YouTube of Andrew Luck throwing 80 yds in practice? And he makes it look easy. According to your boy Doug Baldwin, he can throw 90 yds. But of course Wilson can do this too right?

Youtube it.

Prove he cant? you cannot and there in lies your problem no fact no stat just your trolling opinion.

[Anthony]

I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.

By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).

Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.

It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.

Ding ding ding we have a winner

[Futureite]

I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.

By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).

Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.

It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.

You are missing the point by so much again, I gave no idea how to frame it any differently. You gave the Steelers and Cards as examples of teams that have a vertical pass game that requires a big arm. Sure ss s*** the two QBs for those Os are 6'4 guys with big arms. It's physics. You a big guy with an arm and put 240 lbs behind it and most likely more hip power and he is going to have a WAY easier time making a cross the field throw 10 times in a game than a freaking 5'11 195 LB QB. If you deny this you deny reality. Not only that, but he does not have move around to find a throwing lane.

I know this first hand as former QB bordering 6 ft who could launch a ball 65 yds and put it on a rope anywhere on the field. It also took a lot out of me to make those throws, and evrn in freaking highschool I had a hard time moving to find a throwing lane to put the ball on a lower tradjectory.

I mean, do you think it's just blind coincidence that like 95% of the guys that run this type of O are in the stafford build, and the majority of good WC system QBs are of the smaller, more mobile? Brees, Montana, Rodgers, even your Vick analogy of a strong arm small guy played in TWO WC systems.....Elway, Roethlisberger, Stafford - downfield vertical passing systems.

Again, I didn't say Wilson "can't" make these throws. Hell, I could prob go to a field now at 40 Yrs old and make some of them. Can a guy hit his back foot, set and comfortably make that throw over and over again? In Wilson's case, NO - or they'd be calling it consisently, period. At his arm strength level and stature, those are not the ideal throws for him.

I give you credit for at least rationally debating this and not going the "I disagree so you're a troll" route. I am nit saying Wildon lacks arm, trust me. It's just not the type of arm to do the things you want a QB to do in a certain O. Montana did not have that either. So why do you guys take it as such an insult?

[HumanCockroach]

http://sites.psu.edu/siowfa15/2015/09/0 ... the-mound/

http://www.livestrong.com/article/48926 ... -football/

This is the same type of perception that is used in baseball( the reason Seattle used a first round pick on Ryan Anderson. Who? Exactly. Or took Brandon Morrow ( who? Exactly)over the "short" pitcher Tim Linceculm) same reasoning Seattle spent a first on Dan McGuire, and so on. Scientifically speaking, your argument is weak. There is no correlation, none what so ever between height and throwing power, arm strength IS developed via the work put in, not the length of a persons inseam. If you need more reading material, just let me know.

It is not any more difficult for a short QB to throw the ball with the same velocity than a tall one, vision might be an issue, but throwing it? Not a scientific ounce of truth to that statement, in any way.

As for "why?" some is probably because of your history, mixed in with your insistence that Wilson can't do what Luck can, or that he is stunted, but mostly its because, simply put, your wrong. And none of the statistics, or success, backs up your position. Not only that, but you continue to insist Luck does something, that he doesn't, which is throw the ball repeatedly down field. Now you have added some claim that he can't make these throws repeatedly, and again I'll ask ( though there is zero to support that claim) WTF does it MATTER if he can do it a hundred times in practice? WTF does that have to do with doing it in a game? Wilson not Luck HAS had that success, so like the YouTube silliness, whether Luck does it more in practice or workouts is irrelevant anyway ( though you have nothing to support that claim).

[obiken]

We win the next 2 no problem then the war begins.

[Anthony]

You are missing the point by so much again, I gave no idea how to frame it any differently. You gave the Steelers and Cards as examples of teams that have a vertical pass game that requires a big arm. Sure ss s*** the two QBs for those Os are 6'4 guys with big arms. It's physics. You a big guy with an arm and put 240 lbs behind it and most likely more hip power and he is going to have a WAY easier time making a cross the field throw 10 times in a game than a freaking 5'11 195 LB QB. If you deny this you deny reality. Not only that, but he does not have move around to find a throwing lane.

I know this first hand as former QB bordering 6 ft who could launch a ball 65 yds and put it on a rope anywhere on the field. It also took a lot out of me to make those throws, and evrn in freaking highschool I had a hard time moving to find a throwing lane to put the ball on a lower tradjectory.

I mean, do you think it's just blind coincidence that like 95% of the guys that run this type of O are in the stafford build, and the majority of good WC system QBs are of the smaller, more mobile? Brees, Montana, Rodgers, even your Vick analogy of a strong arm small guy played in TWO WC systems.....Elway, Roethlisberger, Stafford - downfield vertical passing systems.

Again, I didn't say Wilson "can't" make these throws. Hell, I could prob go to a field now at 40 Yrs old and make some of them. Can a guy hit his back foot, set and comfortably make that throw over and over again? In Wilson's case, NO - or they'd be calling it consisently, period. At his arm strength level and stature, those are not the ideal throws for him.

I give you credit for at least rationally debating this and not going the "I disagree so you're a troll" route. I am nit saying Wildon lacks arm, trust me. It's just not the type of arm to do the things you want a QB to do in a certain O. Montana did not have that either. So why do you guys take it as such an insult?

HMm still no fact or stats just you running your mouth troll

[burrrton]

A couple of weak games and Futureite returns to the same nonsense he gets strangely quiet about after strong games. Film at 11.

[Futureite]

The proof that your QB cannot consistently make the throws I am referencing is that your O doesn't run anything remotely close to the type of O the afore mentioned QBs run. You cannot name one big, strong armed QB that runs the read option. Not one. And neither of are experienced enough to recognize that you lose any argument where you attempt to make someone prove a negative. It's impossible to prove a negative.

Your argument is identical to this: "Prove to me Andrew Luck cannot run like Russell Wilson. If you cannot prove it, then shut up Troll". I can make the identical and reverse claim - that Andrew Luck could rack up 900 yds rushing, could extend plays in identical fashion to Russell Wilson, and has the identical skill set but simply is not called upon to do it during games. We both know that Wilson's scrambling/running is unmatched not only in today's NFL, but potentially in the history of the league. Just as the majority of people outside of Seattle have agreed that Luck's arm, footwork and ability to make various throws is "once in a generation" type talent.

The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. I am not even claiming Luck is better here. I am merely citing their varied skill sets. I made it clear at the onset that this was only my opinion, and that even a QB like Joe Montana could not consistently hit those throws - hence the reason Bill Walsh rarely called upon him to do so. Great deep ball thrower like Wilson, but there's an obvious difference between a fade and other downfield throws.

[Futureite]

A couple of weak games and Futureite returns to the same nonsense he gets strangely quiet about after strong games. Film at 11.

Bullshit. I haven't come here and criticized Wilson ONCE in the past 4 games, of which he has thrown 7 ints total. This proves the complete garbage you throw out there. If I had wanted to do that, this was clearly my opportunity. We aren't talking about individual performances in games, who won or lost or why. Luck himself has been awful in the last 3 games he has played. What we are talking about is skillsets, and what each QB does well.

You guys seriously need some perspective. You cannot even identify when you've been insulted.

[Anthony]

The proof that your QB cannot consistently make the throws I am referencing is that your O doesn't run anything remotely close to the type of O the afore mentioned QBs run. You cannot name one big, strong armed QB that runs the read option. Not one. And neither of are experienced enough to recognize that you lose any argument where you attempt to make someone prove a negative. It's impossible to prove a negative.

Your argument is identical to this: "Prove to me Andrew Luck cannot run like Russell Wilson. If you cannot prove it, then shut up Troll". I can make the identical and reverse claim - that Andrew Luck could rack up 900 yds rushing, could extend plays in identical fashion to Russell Wilson, and has the identical skill set but simply is not called upon to do it during games. We both know that Wilson's scrambling/running is unmatched not only in today's NFL, but potentially in the history of the league. Just as the majority of people outside of Seattle have agreed that Luck's arm, footwork and ability to make various throws is "once in a generation" type talent.

The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. I am not even claiming Luck is better here. I am merely citing their varied skill sets. I made it clear at the onset that this was only my opinion, and that even a QB like Joe Montana could not consistently hit those throws - hence the reason Bill Walsh rarely called upon him to do so. Great deep ball thrower like Wilson, but there's an obvious difference between a fade and other downfield throws.

add that is not proof of anything other than we do not run those plays. God you really are a moron. The problem with us is nothing the problem with you is you open your mouth, state your opinion with nothing to back It up and then try to push it as fact. Dude you got nothing at all no proof not fact no stats you got nothing but your worthless opinion, give it up, face it your wrong.

[Anthony]

You guys seriously need some perspective. You cannot even identify when you've been insulted.

Dude your week get over your self.

[RiverDog]

The proof that your QB cannot consistently make the throws I am referencing is that your O doesn't run anything remotely close to the type of O the afore mentioned QBs run. You cannot name one big, strong armed QB that runs the read option. Not one. And neither of are experienced enough to recognize that you lose any argument where you attempt to make someone prove a negative. It's impossible to prove a negative.

Your argument is identical to this: "Prove to me Andrew Luck cannot run like Russell Wilson. If you cannot prove it, then shut up Troll". I can make the identical and reverse claim - that Andrew Luck could rack up 900 yds rushing, could extend plays in identical fashion to Russell Wilson, and has the identical skill set but simply is not called upon to do it during games. We both know that Wilson's scrambling/running is unmatched not only in today's NFL, but potentially in the history of the league. Just as the majority of people outside of Seattle have agreed that Luck's arm, footwork and ability to make various throws is "once in a generation" type talent.

The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. I am not even claiming Luck is better here. I am merely citing their varied skill sets. I made it clear at the onset that this was only my opinion, and that even a QB like Joe Montana could not consistently hit those throws - hence the reason Bill Walsh rarely called upon him to do so. Great deep ball thrower like Wilson, but there's an obvious difference between a fade and other downfield throws.

I can name two. Colin Kaepernick, at 6'4" and 230 lbs, and Cam Newton at 6'6" and 250 lbs, are two pretty big quarterbacks with strong arms that run the read option.

[Futureite]

River;

True, but we started Kap in place of Alex for his abililty to push the ball downfield, which Alex was receiving heavy criticism for not doing. Kap had amongst the best deep throw % in 2012 .

You know as well as I do that there are going to be exceptions. For example, John Elway ran a WC system at the end of his career for a couple yrs with Shanahan. But we also know which brand of body type and arm talent is built for each system. For example, Bill Walsh specifically preferred Montana's build and wanted a mobile QB who was light on his feet. He in fact chose a similar model in Jeff Garcia yrs later after he returned as a talent evaluator for these exact reasons. Garcia had a strong arm too but sure wasn't a fit for downfield O.

Honestly, I just reviewed two separate scouting reports on Wilson and they both echoed what my dreaded "eye test" sees and what I stated. There is one that I literally read 3 min ago and mimics my statement verbatim:

Google Russell Wilson NFL Draft Prospect Field Gulls. The scout states rates his arm 3.5 (out of what range I am not sure) and states "struggles with downfield throws".

Another scout rated Manziel's arm stronger than Wilson's.

Now none of this means jack for how good Wilson is or has become. But these guys DO know how to rate pure physical tools. And that's all we are discussing now; pure physical tools. This is another example where my opinion is far, far closer to the truth than 2 guys that just called me a Troll for stating it.

[Futureite]

LOL! "The problem with us is nothing...". I think that statement says plenty.

Here's an idea for you Anthony. Go email those scouts and write "you got nothing but your worthless opinion (which for some reason NFL organizations find are paying you to offer). You got no stats no facts no nothing".

Now go do what you do and go off on some nonsensical tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with rating pure physical tools, tell us how scouts are wrong and how so many players end up being great despite what scouts say, like Richard Sherman. I can see this coming a mile away.

[Futureite]

I can give you the youtube to Wilson dropping the ball on the dime from 60 or so, different angles, with heat, with touch, I don't have a video of him throwing 90, but then again, WTF do I need one? Ultimately, it matters not at all, IF they can't do it in a game, the same reason the HS FG kickers that post YouTube videos of FG's over 80 yards don't mean a thing. Vick supposedly had one of the strongest arms in the NFL, and yet, the guy couldn't hit the broad side of the barn.

As for Luck, as I pointed out, he does not run Arians offense, and hasn't in three seasons, so unless you are insisting that, the new coordinator is a muppet or something, not really sure where you are going with this. I have yet to see a single throw Luck has ever made in a game that Wilson "couldn't" make, if you have THAT video, by all means post the link, and I will reconsider, I HAVE however seen plays made, that Luck can't by Wilson ( not a knock, no one else IMHO in the past, present and possibly future could make them either). Either way Future, Lucks YPA, or YPC or at the very least explosive plays would have at least at ONE point in three years have been greater right? I mean, if he is "driving the ball downfield" as design by the offense, something Wilson can't do because according to you, he's short ( we are back here again/ I thought this stupidity had been put to bed two seasons ago.) then how the hell is that possible.

By the way, I am not definitively saying Wilson's arm is "stronger", because truth be told, I don't know ( just like you), and that simply isn't something you can tell from a schematic glance, or the OC preference, or the style of play. Hell, you can't even tell from how the ball arrives, because, a QB does indeed dictate, how that occurs. Maybe Luck should take a lesson from Wilson, and learn that accuracy, good decision making, and not turning the ball over is better than "youtube videos of throwing the ball 80 yards" it seems to be working a hell of a lot better for him. Success outweighs strength, but we don't even know if strength favors Luck, other than using your "eye test" there is no way to assess that accurately from watching a couple games of each, none. I have also watched Luck, and my "eye test" says he has never made a single throw Wilson is incapable of, he DOES throw with more anticipation, but than again, he gets himself in serious trouble because of it, early, and often. ( to the point now where his head coach is questioning him and his decisions).

Ultimately, even IF you are right ( which is pretty damn debatable) which would you rather have on Sunday? A QB with a cannon, that can't successfully throw the ball down field, or a slightly less strong armed QB that does it successfully week in and week out? I know which one I am taking, especially if I am a coach, and my personal success hinges on it.

It's foolish to argue over, because you like I have zero evidence to back it up ( though I do have three years of greater downfield throwing success on Wilsons side) and there is simply no way for you verify it as fact.

I completely agree with everything you posted - and the articles. When I refer to throwing power, force and torque, I am referencing the fact that these 6'4 guys are by and large big, strong guys. They have 240+ lbs behind each throw, in general have stronger hip drive and power than the smaller guys. It's not a coincidence that the strongest arms in the league are predominantly bigger guys (yes, I realize there are exceptions to any rule).

The height is a completely different issue. The height issue makes it more difficult to throw on time down the field. The smaller guys have to move more to find lanes. That extra movement combined with the fact that they have to put more body into the throw makes the downfield throws much more difficult. Harder to set, harder to throw with a player bearing down, etc. If you watch Luck, his hips generate so much power that he can reset in a half second and fire 30 yds down field on a line as a DTackle is smashing him.

Again, I appreciate you backing your opinion and not going the "Troll" route. Hell, maybe you are right. This is just my opinion and it means nothing in the W/L column tomorrow.

[Anthony]

LOL! "The problem with us is nothing...". I think that statement says plenty.

Here's an idea for you Anthony. Go email those scouts and write "you got nothing but your worthless opinion (which for some reason NFL organizations find are paying you to offer). You got no stats no facts no nothing".

Now go do what you do and go off on some nonsensical tangent that has absolutely nothing to do with rating pure physical tools, tell us how scouts are wrong and how so many players end up being great despite what scouts say, like Richard Sherman. I can see this coming a mile away.

hhm 3 straight replies still no fact, no stats and your still WRONG. Dude I do not have to email anyone I am not the one making the stupid statements you are. now do what you do best go away.

Oh and as to the scouts yeah they always get it right ryan Leaf ring a bell, the guy all the scouts said was a sure fire NFL QB were is he now.

[HumanCockroach]

Why stop there RD? Luck ran the read option just last week against the Jets, Manning (yep Peyton) in week one, and Stafford has done it multiple times this season, looks pathetic and sad when they do it, but it is becoming common place.

Edit: good news is, strong armed QB's have almost entirely disappeared, today Luck ran the read option multiple times, as well as Flacco, Ryan, even flipping Rivers and Stafford...

[Anthony]

The problem with each of you is that you cannot differentiate between an insult and simple fact citing. .

Problem is you have not proven anything you say to be a fact just your opinion