Uh O-line

[c_hawkbob]

John Boyle ‏@johnpboyle 26m26 minutes ago
A day after calling the OL a work in progress, Pete Carroll says on 710 ESPN: "Let’s drop that phrase. We’ve just got to get better."

Jeez I hope someone (Bevel, Cable!) is taking this seriously!

[burrrton]

Lions were one of the worst pass rushing defenses in the league coming in, and ended up with SIX sacks, countless pressures, etc. RW is on pace to end up being sacked the second most in NFL history.

Yeah, I think "work in progress" is too good at the moment. They are *pathetic*.

[c_hawkbob]

"Work in progress" is no longer applicable when they stop progressing. They's looked better each of the last couple of weeks but this week's performance was regression. Extreme regression! After having given them the benefit of the doubt because they were at least showing that they were getting a little better each week, I think after watching the film Pete just decided the progression had stopped.

[mykc14]

Yeah, it was really bad. I don't know what other options are available but it was terrible. The worst part is that Okung has looked just as bad as the others. Almost every play somebody along the OL got beat, unacceptable. It would be nice if there were help out there somewhere. Normally I would say don't even bother looking I the scrap heap at this point because there is no way somebody good enough to be starting wouldn't already be signed but there has to be guys on other team's practice squads or backups that could be traded for that could help us at this point.

[The POPE]

This falls on Pete and John.
The Hawks were damm lucky to survive the o-line the last 2 years and make it to the SB. What is the root of the problem? Is it Pete and Johns reluctance to invest in o-line or do they have that much belief in Cables proclamations that he can make chicken soup out of chicken sh*t. Thus far the result has been the latter. It's time to stop screwing around with defensive line guys who can't make it in the league at their natural position and acquire some real o-lineman. And please hire a coach who can evaluate o-line talent, because even when they have drafted o-lineman they typically have not been successful. That points to one of two things. Bad talent or bad coaching. Either way Pete and John are responsible.

So my request for today is determine what the problem is and fix it or your franchise QB is going to have a short career.

The Pope

[NorthHawk]

That's rather unholy language, poppy.
I think they do have too much faith in Cable, but I could be wrong and it could be scouting or the de-emphasis of OL as a priority.
In time some say, this group could be pretty good, but do we have that time or are we willing to sacrifice a year for them to develop?
I guess we will just have to wait and see how it all works out.

[RiverDog]

"Work in progress" is no longer applicable when they stop progressing. They's looked better each of the last couple of weeks but this week's performance was regression. Extreme regression! After having given them the benefit of the doubt because they were at least showing that they were getting a little better each week, I think after watching the film Pete just decided the progression had stopped.

It's refreshing to see you change your position on this subject, CBob.

I'm really worried that Pete's penchant for ignoring or trivializing the importance of the offensive line is going to bite us in the arse this season. I keep hearing excuses for not resigning journeymen linemen like Brenu and McQuistian by noting that they probably aren't worth a raise, trading away Unger, not attempting to resign Carpenter, etc, without going after a guy like Mathis when he was available.

[NorthHawk]

I think the real mistake - at least early was not getting a veteran Center to organize the line play.
Wisniewski was available, as was another, but it was decided to gamble on youth.

[kalibane]

I don't fault them for letting go anyone they let go. The problem is they replaced them all with projects instead of actual offensive linemen. Even Britt was a project regardless of the fact that they reached for him in the second.

If Cable is the one choosing his line, it's time to stop letting him choose. He maybe a great line coach but it's pretty clear at this point that his eyes are bigger than his stomach. Again assuming he's the primary input on these choices. Time to let him focus on coaching.

[HumanCockroach]

I think the real mistake - at least early was not getting a veteran Center to organize the line play.
Wisniewski was available, as was another, but it was decided to gamble on youth.

fair enough, but Nowak has actually been graded higher than him by PFF. not saying that much as he is currently the 18th rated center in football ( Wisniewski is rated 29th).

[The POPE]

That's rather unholy language, poppy.
I think they do have too much faith in Cable, but I could be wrong and it could be scouting or the de-emphasis of OL as a priority.
In time some say, this group could be pretty good, but do we have that time or are we willing to sacrifice a year for them to develop?
I guess we will just have to wait and see how it all works out.

Please forgive the language, for I am human. Just get a little worked up when discussing the o-line.
We have seen this same scenario since Pete rode his Trojan Horse into town. Some how by the Grace of God we won a Super Bowl and were one yard away from two. But one has to wonder if Marshawn would have got the ball, if Pete had any faith in the O-line to get enough movement for the Beast to get 1 yard. Apparently not.

Now he has gone from a "work in progress"to we have to fix this. Not sure this can be fixed this year, looks like they went down the wrong isle at the grocery store. Somebody must have switched the o-line sign with the d-line reject sign.

For Petes sake fix the Damm O-line. If not this year, please whole heartedly address it in the off season.
oops, I did it again just like young Brittany in the little catholic school girl outfit.
Yes, even I have sinful pleasures.

Pope out

[RiverDog]

It's not just the interior line, either. Neither Graham or Willson can block worth a damn, or at least not anywhere near the way that Zach Miller could. There were a lot of occasions in the past where keeping Miller in to block really helped take the pressure off of Russell. I realize that Miller was hurt a lot, but the point is that we compromised our pass protection and run blocking by trading Unger for Graham and parting with our #1 pick. Couple that with letting go some serviceable veterans like Breuno, McQ, and Carpenter without viable replacements and not dedicating anything higher than a 4th round draft choice on a rookie and pretty soon we have a recipe for a train wreck of an OL that we are facing today. It's still early, with only 25% of the regular season behind us, but there hasn't been hardly anything for us to be optimistic that the situation will improve anytime soon.

North Hawk called this out early, and took a lot of flak for being so critical. I wish he was wrong.

[Seahawks4Ever]

I have watched James Carpenter play for the Jets and he is doing just fine. When he was here we said he was a
road grader" of a run blocker but not very good at pass blocking. Well, the O-line coach for the Jets must be a lot better than Tom Cable because JC is now a very good pass blocker. One thing I think that is holding back our O-Line play is that ultra complicated ZBS (zone blocking system) maybe it is just too complicated and our young O-Linemen are just taking too long to figure it out.

We also have to do a better job at calling out the protection. Obviously Nowak is not handling that duty well, maybe he needs to sit so the Lewis can do the job?? I hear Bailey wants out of Seattle, well, I want Bailey to quit holding and/or having false starts called against him. We even have Sleezy getting stupid penalties called on him and I was shocked that Okung made it through an entire game without being flagged for something.

I think Cable has got to go, but nothing can be done until after the season so we are stuck with him for now.

[burrrton]

I hear Bailey wants out of Seattle

Where'd you hear that?

[Hawkstar]

Where'd you hear that?[/quote]

There was a stream on Twitter - Bailey tweeted something like ~ there are 31 other cities I'd rather be in than Seattle ~ people jumped all over him. Pretty funny actually, I'll see if I can find it.

[c_hawkbob]

I saw it as well, but didn't at all take it to mean he wanted out of Seattle ... I think he's indicating that the O-line room at the V-Mac is not the funnest place in in the world to be this week.

[burrrton]

I saw it as well, but didn't at all take it to mean he wanted out of Seattle ... I think he's indicating that the O-line room at the V-Mac is not the funnest place in in the world to be this week.

Ah.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure what to make of his statement, but I took it as the criticism of the OL wasn't enjoyable, somewhat like Bob thought.

Here's a link (hope it works)
https://twitter.com/Bailey_67/status/651934572439973889

[politicalfootball]

Maybe we can get some help from the fullback something must be done.

[HumanCockroach]

They could, but unfortunately they refuse to play them more than a handful of plays ( to be fair, I am not entirely sure if either FB is good at pass protection either, as they are never asked to do it).

[savvyman]

You have got to view the GIFs at this link.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2015/10/8/9468615/seattle-seahawks-offensive-line-russell-wilson-marshawn-lynch


When something is this bad about the only thing you can do is laugh..........

[obiken]

PC got peppered on the OL by the media come on, they know they have a problem. You can give all the excuse you want but 18 sacks is 18 sacks.

[burrrton]

You have got to view the GIFs at this link.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/football-breakdowns/2015/10/8/9468615/seattle-seahawks-offensive-line-russell-wilson-marshawn-lynch


When something is this bad about the only thing you can do is laugh..........

Holy smokes. That's about as disheartening a post as I've read/watched in a while.

Confirms what I felt like I was watching (haven't subjected myself to going back and reviewing it myself).

[Hawktawk]

That was the keystone cops of O line play OMG!!!!
Russ actually looked a little animated when talking to the coaching staff between possessions last Monday. He never throws anyone under the bus but he looked pist.

[mykc14]

Another silver lining... we are 2-2 (on the optimistic side we could be 4-0 or at least 3-1 if Kam would have been playing all year) and our OL couldn't be playing much worse. There have to be better options out there, heck there have to be better options on the bench right now. Britt has looked terrible whether it be injuries or skill he needs to sit. His inadequacies as a blocker, especially pass blocker were covered a little by the fact that he was playing outside last year. This year playing inside the rusher gets to Russ much faster. The other OL I am most frustrated with is Okung. In the past, when healthy, he has played at a pro-bowl to all-pro level but right now he just looks terrible. He looked better in the past when he was injured. If I were a Bengal DL I would be licking my chops right now.

[NorthHawk]

It's Cable's "Matador" pass blocking scheme. Probably designed to confuse the DL into thinking everything is a screen pass.
People have talked about Sweezy doing so well, but I have never seen him be effective in pass blocking and he seems to get bull rushed or faked out at least once a game if not more.

When reduced to its most basic elements, this game is about blocking and tackling.
If you don't do one well, the entire foundation of that side of the ball is undermined.

[kalibane]

If I were a Bengal DL I would be licking my chops right now.

I'm sure Geno Atkins is watching that game film as I type and laughing maniacally.

[Seahawks4Ever]

Watching the Field Gulls films is very damning. It IS worse than I thought it was. Britt does not belong on an NFL line. The only reason he was able to play RT last year was that he had help because of chip blocking from our TE's and RB's. Left by him self Britt is a disaster. Not far behind is Sweezy, forget calling him Sleezy, he plays more like Weezy from the Jeffersons. Actually, I think Weezy is a bit better. Okung has regressed now that he doesn't have a decent OG playing next to him. I didn't catch Gilliam on these films so I don't know how he is doing, really. These films really show you the "truth" better than what we see on TV during a game.

These films are an indictment on Cable and the entire staff including Pete who keeps this moron around. What does this say about Schneider who has failed to draft decent linemen or traded away Unger for a TE who we can't seem to get the ball to.

[The POPE]

We need coordination, trust, and experience from these guys, in a hurry.

We need a hell of a lot more than that. After watching that display of the keystone cops impersonating an NFL line we need nothing short of a frickin miracle. The Hawks used up the allotment of miracles last year making it to the Superbowl, then they ran out on the 1 yard line. Let's hope the "miracle tank" will be refilled. If not Tavaris better practice his best fall and curl up in a ball moves, because Russell won't be around to finish the season if Tom and the boys don't get it together.

praying for miracles

The Pope.

[NorthHawk]

I'm hoping all this attention on the OL will bring out the best in them and maybe give the Bengals DL some overconfidence.
At some point this OL will turn it around. Maybe it will be this game.

[kalibane]

I don't know. Watching Justin Britt try to block two people and fail to get even a hand on one of them is pretty ridiculous.

Here's the thing. If you would have told me 2 years ago we'd have multiple offensive linemen who frustrate me MORE than James Carpenter I would have said that's impossible. I mean seriously think about how much we used to complain collectively about Carp, justifiably. He'd be an upgrade at LG or RT right now. It's kind of depressing.

[HumanCockroach]

LOL. Carpenter, Giacomini, McQuistan..... The list continues. This is NOT a Seahawks problem, this IS an NFL problem. I said then, that those guys were "starting caliber NFL Players" and people scoffed, complained and bemoaned how "poor, stupid, or bad" they were, and yet all three left, got paid well, and are doing "good" jobs for other teams. This line once again is going to be criticized the same exact way, and some will move on and have success with other teams. The entire NFL is having problems with their lines, from game to game and play to play ( INCLUDING lines that people think are great, like Dallas, NE, GB etc) why? Because the crop of lineman do not understand the type of play needed in the NFL, and that INCLUDES the lineman that played their whole lives there. It isn't a Coach thing, or a converted defensive lineman thing, or an evaluation thing, or a talent thing, or a resources thing, it IS a TIME thing. Teams are STUCK trying to teach ALL lineman, how to be a "successful" NFL lineman, no matter were they were drafted, or how much they were paid, it takes time to learn, and there simply isn't many that are worth a damn to begin with.

How many "great" young lineman have been drafted in the last 5-7 years? It might not be zero, but it sure the hell is a lot closer to that number than 10. There have more busts than successes during that time. People bemoan not having them, but the truth is, they are NOT there to have, and haven't been for some time. Maybe none of these lineman on Seattle work out, but the truth is it takes more time, than those here are allotting to figure out if they will. I personally LIKE Gilliam, and Nowak, despite their problems. I see athleticism and ability in both. Sweezy has taken a major step back in my opinion, but he IS an NFL starting caliber guard. I don't have any clue on whether Britt is going to be good at guard, the early returns have me leaning towards no, but personally, I will wait until at least half way through the season ( his first at that position since HS) and he is healthy enough to play to his full level. Okung actually for me is the absolute greatest disappointment. He is the "leader" of that line, and his play this season has been downright mediocre to pathetic. Okung doesn't even have the pass of "learning" the system, or a new position, he knows his position, and the offensive blocking schemes, isn't injured, and yet still doesn't perform close to capabilities.

Ultimately, people will moan, nothing will change fast enough, they will let a guy walk, he will do fine somewhere else, he will develop here, move on, and then take the develop invested to another team, and people will moan about "losing" him, despite rushing him out the door. Seattle fans cycle.

[kalibane]

Time to let it go HC. The entire football community is beginning to recognize how bad this line is. The blocking is bad league wide, but the blocking in Seattle is one of, if not, the worst situations in the league. Mcquisten is garbage. Don't miss him. Breno was frustrating purely because of his penalties but was solid blocking. Carp was bad but still better than his replacements.

They weren't "developed" then moved on. They were what they were. It's getting old having you act like we aren't seeing what we're seeing. The Lions line is bad. Our defensive line is better than theirs and we still got no where near as much pressure on Stafford as they got on Wilson.

This line sucks. Period and point blank. Now you may want to argue that they'll come together as the year goes on and maybe you'll be right but it's time you stop acting like this is par for the course around the league, because it's not.

[NorthHawk]

We will see one of the supposedly good OL's this game in Cincinnati.
It will be interesting to compare the two.

[Zorn76]

Not having a healthy Lynch this Sunday in Cincy isn't gonna help, either.
The Bengals are gonna pin their ears back even more to go after RW.
I like Rawls, but he's not the kind of guy you have to really game plan for like you would Beast.

To pull this thing off, we'll have to hope that the *creative* play calling we typically see in the 2nd half starts happening in the 1st. I also think Wilson needs to run early, by design (in addition to being under pressure), to make that an x-factor early in the game.

The Chiefs (as usual) had no success scoring TD's last week, but they did put together some good drives to kick 7 FG's. It gives me some hope and optimism that we'll be able to move the ball as well. I also think we'll need a minimum of 27 to get the W.

[kalibane]

So according to football outsiders advanced metrics the Seahawks have the 17th ranked run blocking line and are DEAD LAST in pass blocking, and are responsible for giving up a sack on 11.8% of QB drop backs. That is an adjusted sack rate FYI which doesn't take into account the sacks Russell Wilson takes unnecessarily.

Now please remind me again how my complaining about the offensive line is an over reaction and that my critique is exaggerated. Imagine how bad the sack rate would be if Wilson wasn't a magician in terms of escapability.

[HumanCockroach]

Time to let it go HC. The entire football community is beginning to recognize how bad this line is. The blocking is bad league wide, but the blocking in Seattle is one of, if not, the worst situations in the league. Mcquisten is garbage. Don't miss him. Breno was frustrating purely because of his penalties but was solid blocking. Carp was bad but still better than his replacements.

They weren't "developed" then moved on. They were what they were. It's getting old having you act like we aren't seeing what we're seeing. The Lions line is bad. Our defensive line is better than theirs and we still got no where near as much pressure on Stafford as they got on Wilson.

This line sucks. Period and point blank. Now you may want to argue that they'll come together as the year goes on and maybe you'll be right but it's time you stop acting like this is par for the course around the league, because it's not.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2015/10/6/943 ... ky-players

Whatever, it isn't just in Seattle, and there are NUMEROUS articles available for those inclined to read and learn something. I'm only going to lead people to the water so many times, it's up to them to drink it. If people want to continually burry their heads in the sand, that's their problem, not mine. If people need that convenient scape goat, that is their problem, not mine. The "entire football community", Bane? You mean you, and those that feel the same way? The same folks that b%tch about the line year in and year out, and can't wait to dump guys on the line, and when they are gone, B%tch about the new guys before they have played half a season. Are those the "entire football community" you are talking about? The rinse and repeat cycle you all go through every year is pointless, and has very little actual information. If you want that pity party, be my damn guest, but I will not, ever, join in to it. I don't like the way they have performed, and haven't made a single damn excuse for them. That said, unlike most, I also refuse to blame them for every damn mistake made on the field.

Be my guest at the yearly "the O-line is garbage", "why haven't they fixed it", "they should have drafted somebody else" ( despite the fact that none of those guys are any better than what they are currently lining up, and No ONE in this party has ever given a SINGLE damn name of a player that has performed better they could have drafted, without the parameters of " IF they were here, they would have been better" crapola) the truth is, there is a dearth of quality lineman playing, or coming into the league, and this is a LEAGUE WIDE epidemic, not just a Seattle epidemic. Even when there was NFL caliber starters in Seattle, the usual suspects, whined and complained about them, now they are gone, and the replacements aren't any good? Fine, maybe they aren't, but you all GOT what you wanted, change, now you want to b&tch about it? OK, do so, but do NOT lump me in with you guys, when it comes to doing it. I stood up for Giacomini, and I did the same for Carpenter, I pointed out that they WERE starting caliber lineman, and guess what? They WERE, despite what you all had to say about it, and despite the insistence that I was crazy then, or wrong, or ignoring the problems. Why do you think they got paid what they did to leave? It is NOT because they were what you all professed they were. It IS because they were exactly what I said they were. There is slim pickins out there in regards to the line, not my fault you and others can't see it, or recognize it.

Feel free to whine, moan and complain. I'm not going to do it.

" Buckle up, and tough it out, there are going to be these types of games. If you can't handle it, maybe you should go somewhere else" - Pete Carroll

"Buckle up Buttercup, it's going to be a bumpy ride"

[Hawktawk]

HC you are correct the 2013 line was indeed of as much higher caliber that this one.
It is my understanding that mush of the shortage of quality linemen coming out of college is the same problem as QB s, ie too many offenses that dont mirror the pro style game.
None of it excuses the horrific play of this line. The guys need to be running a windsprint for every missed assignment,I am sorry.
Theres a penalty thread up on the board. IMO we need some more offensive penalties. Id rather see a hold or even a PF like Breno now and then called than a strip sack or Russ carted off on a board.
These guys have no guts, no fight, no nastiness.

[kalibane]

It's not whining it's a factual observation. Again look at the analysis by football outsiders. It doesn't matter if blocking isn't as good across the the league because in a league of bad blocking it's the worst in Seattle (in terms of pass blocking) and it ain't good in terms of run blocking either. From my perspective it's you who's burying your head in the sand on this issue.

The O-line gives up a sack once every 8.5 drop backs. And you try to tell me that's not horrendous blocking. Even by the Seahawks conservative passing game that's basically 3 sacks PER GAME... Not counting the ones that Russ is responsible for himself. 3 sacks a game just the offensive line getting beaten.

I'm not sure why you're so loathe to admit the reality in this issue. It is what it is... And if it doesn't improve it will sink the season.

[HumanCockroach]

Show me where I said that. Until then, quit putting words in my mouth. I haven't at any point, in any thread said I approved of the line play, or that they played well. You wanted change, you got it, just because you don't like it better, doesn't mean a damn thing. You all wanted change, and refused to listen to reason when it was pointed out that there wasn't anything out there to "improve" the line, that's your problem, not mine. I saw what was out there, what was coming into the league, and how often it was, and stood my ground the last two seasons about the NEED to retain those you all were pissing and moaning about, well, here you go. You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept it. Hopefully, Carroll and Cable and Co are just a wee bit better at coaching, evaluating and improving the play than all these line experts on here that couldn't stand serviceable starting caliber lineman the last three years, otherwise Wilson is going to have a long, long year.

I believe they will be able to do it ( at least passably) hence I am not going to complain 4 fricken games into the season.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... sf13999946

Hmm, more practice squad players preparing to start? Interesting. I can certainly pull up an article for pretty much EVERY team in the NFL discussing the poor line play if you would like, maybe then you could see the trees instead of the forest.