Uh O-line

[NorthHawk]

If Carroll knew that the OL that come from college are not at all prepared, then it had to be a priority to keep the guys they had - guys that have been trained in their system - while they developed others. That they have permitted 2 players on the OL to sign elsewhere and traded a third leaving the line as an almost entire project is a huge gamble not only if they can produce, but if they can avoid being the root cause of backfield injuries.

[HumanCockroach]

So did you want that line, or did you want Wilson? You don't get to have both. Just the way the NFL works. Personally, IMHO I think they made the right choice, and kept the once in a generation QB, as opposed to starting caliber lineman. Especially since no one knows in any way shape or form, what these guys will be moving forward. Seattle built their line EXACTLY the way GB built theirs, it worked for GB, and not a single person here knows what the end result will be in Seattle. There is zero patience here, and always has been in regards to the line, every since the Hutch/ Jones hey day, problem is, people think that is "normal" in the NFL, and think Seattle can just go a head and go do exactly that. Simply doesn't work that way. Seattle is dealing with typical "growing" pains along the line ( and really across the team) that comes with success ( can NOT keep everyone) teams take the players that were there ( including those that weren't great by any stretch) and the team has to replace them with cheaper, less experienced options. It is SUPPOSED to work that way, and odds are Okung will be gone next year as well. Just the way it is, wouldn't be shocked to say goodbye to Sweezy either, and you know what? Someone WILL pay BOTH of them more than Seattle can, because for all the complaints and moaning, BOTH are "starting caliber" lineman in the NFL, if there is something that exhibits what I have been saying about how bad the lineman are coming in and playing in the NFL than Sweezy, Carpenter,Giacomini, Okung, McQuistan ALL either being, or about to be paid large sums to play elsewhere, that should be it.

[NorthHawk]

Green Bays line is solid.
They built it through the draft and kept them together.
If they can make Rodgers the highest paid player and keep their OL together, then we should at least be able to keep some of the players that give us a serviceable line, so yes, we can have both.
We've let 3 of the 5 go or traded them and in the mean time went after players like Harvin and now Graham with big contracts. Harvin didn't work out and to date they haven't shown they know how to use Graham, so yes, we can have both.

Your premise is we will be stocking the rest of the NFL with trained OL. That's not the way to build a team or keep them on top, but it is how to get mired in mediocrity.

[kalibane]

You're telling me there were not better options than Justin Britt, Drew Nowak and Gilliam. Please. They got rid of three starters and didn't try to replace them until the fourth round of the draft. Acting like a line this bad was the cost of signing Wilson is ridiculous. And I don't even know why you are taking it back here. We are talking about what's going on right now week to week. If you don't see the point of complaining about a unit that has given up18 sacks in four games I don't know what to tell you.

But since you insist on talking about the past linemen. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I stated at one point the blocking was horrendous. Your reply was that you have a different definition of horrendous and have constantly tried to shift focus to other areas like were exaggerating the impact of this line. But speaking of putting words in people's mouths who here was campaigning to get rid of Breno or Unger? Not me. And even if I was there were better options out there. They didn't even try in free agency and they waited until the 4th round to try in the draft after losing three starters. That's pretty ridiculous. I'm not going to get into naming names of who was out there, it's a waste of time. Acting like that over the past three years there weren't a plethora of better options that were both attainable and fit in a ZBS is just disingenuous. If the belief is that Cable is picking his linemen then he shouldn't be, period. The players he's brought in are terrible.

I guess you won't be satisfied until Wilson gets crushed. The last time I saw a line thus bad at pass blocking was David Carr's line in Houston.

[RiverDog]

I'm beginning to question the wisdom of the Jimmy Graham trade. Graham just doesn't fit our system. In a run-first team with a very inexperienced OL, we need a TE that can block. I knew that Graham's long suit wasn't blocking, but I didn't think he was this bad, and to make matters worse, Luke isn't much of a blocker, either, we don't have a veteran center, and we surrendered a first round draft pick. If this team doesn't come around, the Graham trade will get the lion's share of the blame.

Kal's mentioning of David Carr is interesting. We all remember how gun shy Carr got when he was on the run as much as he was with the expansion Texans. I'm beginning to see the same thing in Russell. If his first look isn't there, his instinct isn't to start going through his progressions, it's to look for where the rush is going to be coming from. He does not have confidence in his OL, and he's missing open receivers because of it.

[NorthHawk]

I think Graham can work here - if he's used as a Receiver that's lined up in the TE position.
He can chip block and help out the Tackle on some plays before sliding out for an outlet or just split wide but not as a Zach Miller type blocker. He's just not that type of player.

I get a bit of a feeling that Pete is attracted to "Bling" on Offense. First Harvin, then Graham and drafting Richardson and Lockett. I'm not concerned about those two draft picks because I think they both have huge upsides and were worth the picks, but they don't address solidifying an Offense that is based on the running game.
Without a solid foundation, impact players can never really show what they can do.

This team has (or maybe now had) the potential to be a dynasty. Unfortunately dynasties are rare when only one side of the ball is dominant. I can't even think of one.
Perhaps later this year or next the OL will become a solid group - good enough to get the ground game going so the pass can be a change-up.
Maybe it will be today, but it has to play better than the last game if that's going to happen.

[HumanCockroach]

You're telling me there were not better options than Justin Britt, Drew Nowak and Gilliam. Please. They got rid of three starters and didn't try to replace them until the fourth round of the draft. Acting like a line this bad was the cost of signing Wilson is ridiculous. And I don't even know why you are taking it back here. We are talking about what's going on right now week to week. If you don't see the point of complaining about a unit that has given up18 sacks in four games I don't know what to tell you.

But since you insist on talking about the past linemen. I'm not putting words in your mouth. I stated at one point the blocking was horrendous. Your reply was that you have a different definition of horrendous and have constantly tried to shift focus to other areas like were exaggerating the impact of this line. But speaking of putting words in people's mouths who here was campaigning to get rid of Breno or Unger? Not me. And even if I was there were better options out there. They didn't even try in free agency and they waited until the 4th round to try in the draft after losing three starters. That's pretty ridiculous. I'm not going to get into naming names of who was out there, it's a waste of time. Acting like that over the past three years there weren't a plethora of better options that were both attainable and fit in a ZBS is just disingenuous. If the belief is that Cable is picking his linemen then he shouldn't be, period. The players he's brought in are terrible.

I guess you won't be satisfied until Wilson gets crushed. The last time I saw a line thus bad at pass blocking was David Carr's line in Houston.

LMFAO, your placing them in the worst line category off of 4 games, not a full season ( and even if they performed like this for the entire year, they still wouldn't make it). The difference between you and me, is I understand it takes time to truly judge how good a line will or will not become, you want instantaneous results. Doesn't work that way, and it wouldn't even if they spent every pick for the last four seasons on offensive lineman you and others wanted.

As for "wanting Wilson to get crushed" LMFAO. Yeah, I want the guy I wanted them to keep instead of signing mediocre over the hill lineman getting crushed.

[Anthony]

I guess you won't be satisfied until Wilson gets crushed.

No he will be satisfied as soon as everyone understands the only problem with this team is Wilson. Any other Qb not named Wilson could lead us to 16-0 and the Sb every year.

[HumanCockroach]

Grow up, what are you 4 ?

[Anthony]

Grow up, what are you 4 ?

Lol another zinger u sure got me lol

[Hawktawk]

Wow. I am a bit blown up by this thread. Our offensive line finally had a decent game and this is what we get? They played pretty well, and we had a running back not named Marshawn run for 160 some yards and you are complaining? The fourth quarter was disappointing, but the improvement was very good. Or, were you not really watching?

Yeah OBS Rawls ripped off 169 yards, more than Lynch has ever rushed for in a Hawks uni, in his second career start. The problem was they kept going to the well in crunch time and the Bengals could see it and key on it. Anyone ever heard of play action on first or second down?Cripes it would have been wide open.

But yeah very good day for the O line. I heard Russ say after the game that a couple of sacks were on him and that the line played great and battled so that was good to see him take ownership.

[kalibane]

Wow. I am a bit blown up by this thread. Our offensive line finally had a decent game and this is what we get? They played pretty well, and we had a running back not named Marshawn run for 160 some yards and you are complaining? The fourth quarter was disappointing, but the improvement was very good. Or, were you not really watching?

For the record these comments occurred before kick off. But even so let me just leave this here. Yes this week was an improvement. Wilson got sacked 4 times and was under pressure an it was AN IMPROVEMENT.

I'm sure we were all familiar with how bad the Dolphins offensive line has been over the past few seasons, given the whole Richie Incognito bully gate right? So my very best friend in the world is a life long die hard Dolphins fan. This week the dolphins were on a bye and it was the first full Seahawks game he watched. He watched this game which I along with everyone else am acknowledging was an improvement... the first text I got from him after the game was... "I can't believe ya'll lost that game. I though our O-Line was bad. Russell basically hikes the ball and has to start scrambling".

P.S. Graham would be fine for this offense. It's not hard to fit a TE into the offense. What's hard keeping is keeping a receiver consistently involved when the QB never has time in the pocket to establish a rhythm and go through progressions. Graham also has to get better at the scramble drill and keep working to get open. Trust me we'd have problems keeping anyone consistently involved in the passing game, Antonio Brown, Julio Jones name em.

P.P.S. Riv that is my biggest issue. Over the last year and especially this year. The line play has been so bad that you can see Russell anticipating the pressure even when it's not there. He's missed a number of throws that used to be money for him in 2012 and 2013. Now they are sailing on him or they are late getting there. These are plays where I'm sure HC would call Wilson's fault, and while that's technically true, it's all part of the domino effect of having constant pressure due to poor blocking. I worry for Wilson's health and I worry even if he stays healthy that even if the line does round into shape in future years that it won't matter because he'll have that David Carr shell shock. We can't have games where we give up 4 sacks and come away thinking... "that was pretty good".

[NorthHawk]

This was a disappointing loss, no doubt.
However, consider that we went on the road with a questionable OL and being 2 time Super Bowl participants have a huge bulls eye on our back.
So we get the best from every team and yesterday we went against a very good team with SB aspirations and something to prove.
That we took them to OT shows we are still pretty good.

At the end, the Defense was getting beat up and ground down.
Hill was out with an injury, Wagner has a Pectoral injury, and the Bengals started successfully running up the gut late in the game.
With successive 3 and outs by our Offense, the DL started to look tired and Cincy took advantage of it. Kudos to them for making the changes to their Offense.

On the other side of the ball we kept doing the same things that worked in the first half and not changing the script after they started to shut down what was working earlier.
The OL played well enough for us to win. The play calling was good enough to squeak out a loss.

[RiverDog]

This was a disappointing loss, no doubt.
However, consider that we went on the road with a questionable OL and being 2 time Super Bowl participants have a huge bulls eye on our back.
So we get the best from every team and yesterday we went against a very good team with SB aspirations and something to prove.
That we took them to OT shows we are still pretty good.

At the end, the Defense was getting beat up and ground down.
Hill was out with an injury, Wagner has a Pectoral injury, and the Bengals started successfully running up the gut late in the game.
With successive 3 and outs by our Offense, the DL started to look tired and Cincy took advantage of it. Kudos to them for making the changes to their Offense.

On the other side of the ball we kept doing the same things that worked in the first half and not changing the script after they started to shut down what was working earlier.
The OL played well enough for us to win. The play calling was good enough to squeak out a loss.

The injury bug is just an excuse, as is the early start, the short week, and the bull's eye on our backs. We had plenty of firepower to beat the Bengals, and were doing so for 3 quarters. We choked.

The fact is that we simply can't hold onto leads and put games away anymore. Going back to the SB, we've had 4th quarter leads in 4 of our past 6 games, and that's not even considering how we damn near, and probably should have, lost to the Lions in the 4th quarter if not for a kind hearted referee that overlooked a rule.

That doesn't mean I'm blaming it all on the defense. It's a team effort. Last Sunday, all we needed was one first down on several drives and we could have driven a wooden stake into that vampire. And once we give up a 4th quarter lead, like we did against the Pack, we can't get it back. We do not perform in the clutch like we used to.

I'm pretty bummed out about this loss. We can't keep losing these close, competitive games and expect to go to the playoffs let alone get back to the SB.

[NorthHawk]

If Wilson got dinged up during the game, you would expect a downgrade in Offensive productivity.
The same would be expected if the MLB and best DT got dinged.
I don't think it's a coincidence that they started gashing us up the gut when Hill went down and Wagner was tackling with one arm.

I would suggest that blowing leads is about the Offense not able to produce when required.
Less than 30 yards in the 4th Quarter and I believe 5 consecutive possessions where we didn't convert a 3rd down (6 if you count OT).
That's simply not going to win games.
Add in the Offense only scored 17 points and we have a recipe for a loss.
That's at least 2 games this year that the Offense could have pulled their weight and won it, but they don't have that in them right now.

[RiverDog]

I would suggest that blowing leads is about the Offense not able to produce when required.
Less than 30 yards in the 4th Quarter and I believe 5 consecutive possessions where we didn't convert a 3rd down (6 if you count OT).
That's simply not going to win games.
Add in the Offense only scored 17 points and we have a recipe for a loss.
That's at least 2 games this year that the Offense could have pulled their weight and won it, but they don't have that in them right now.

That's a huge part of the problem, no doubt about it. All we needed last Sunday was one measly first down and we could have put those guys away. And you're right, the execution of any NFL offense is 20+ points plus what ever defense and special teams can contribute.

But that doesn't mean the defense gets a free pass. We weren't bringing the pressure on Dalton in the 4th quarter like we were in the 3rd. They let up just like the offense did. No one can tell me that the consensus best defense in the league and arguably the best of our generation can't hold onto a 17 point, 3 score lead going into the 4th quarter. We've had injuries before and seemed to be able to deal with them, at one time or another losing guys like Wagner, KJ Wright, Chancellor, and Mebane. Someone always stepped up.

This team just doesn't have that killer instinct, to go for the jugular when you're opponent is reeling. It could be a Super Bowl hangover that's taken two years to manifest itself. What ever it is, we need to get over it fast or else we're going to find ourselves watching something like the World Series of Poker come January. We can't afford to keep losing these very winnable games.

[Anthony]

That's a huge part of the problem, no doubt about it. All we needed last Sunday was one measly first down and we could have put those guys away. And you're right, the execution of any NFL offense is 20+ points plus what ever defense and special teams can contribute.

But that doesn't mean the defense gets a free pass. We weren't bringing the pressure on Dalton in the 4th quarter like we were in the 3rd. They let up just like the offense did. No one can tell me that the consensus best defense in the league and arguably the best of our generation can't hold onto a 17 point, 3 score lead going into the 4th quarter. We've had injuries before and seemed to be able to deal with them, at one time or another losing guys like Wagner, KJ Wright, Chancellor, and Mebane. Someone always stepped up.

This team just doesn't have that killer instinct, to go for the jugular when you're opponent is reeling. It could be a Super Bowl hangover that's taken two years to manifest itself. What ever it is, we need to get over it fast or else we're going to find ourselves watching something like the World Series of Poker come January. We can't afford to keep losing these very winnable games.

You know it is funny on the times forum this debate is raging and some finally asked if our offense score sa TD on every possession but the other team does to and they have the ball on the last possession and score to win is the defense to blame then? The reply was no because the offense should have taken more time to score, so the other team could not get the ball back. For some reason the defense gets a complete pass from a lot of people, interestingly since this team is built on defense, most of the money is spent on the defense. Yet they always get a complete pass.

To me we lost because we went into prevent defense and prevent offense and the players could not dial back in again. It is hard to be aggressive for 3 qtrs. and then get told to be not aggressive and then dial it back up again. ! day PC will figure this out.

[NorthHawk]

We have been one of the best Defenses the last 3 years, but this isn't the same Defense as last year. Every year is different and few Defenses stay on top for more than a few years.
We lost not only Maxwell, but two influential coaches.
Those experienced sets of eyes could be a big difference in tactics as well as influence in getting the best out of players.
The new coaches might not yet know which buttons to push with each player.
In time they might, but the point is the Offense has to contribute when the Defense struggles.
We haven't seen that yet this year and not much last year, either.

[Anthony]

We have been one of the best Defenses the last 3 years, but this isn't the same Defense as last year. Every year is different and few Defenses stay on top for more than a few years.
We lost not only Maxwell, but two influential coaches.
Those experienced sets of eyes could be a big difference in tactics as well as influence in getting the best out of players.
The new coaches might not yet know which buttons to push with each player.
In time they might, but the point is the Offense has to contribute when the Defense struggles.
We haven't seen that yet this year and not much last year, either.

I agree and the reason is the offensive philosophy has not changed. They are still a low risk, predictable offense, that once it gets a lead goes into prevent offense. When it has worked it was because of Wilson magic, but there is a limit to how much any one player can do. Add into that they have stopped giving him free range in OT and the 2 minute drill. If you look at the last OT you can tell that was all Bevell run, run pass. Its like they know the defense is not what it was so their answer is to hold the offense back even more.