Decline of Offense? Why?

[SalmonBB]

We have a conservative HC who wants to run and control the clock, but the OC calls a play that is a gamble when the smart play is to run down the clock.
I have trouble balancing the words about the style of play and the actions on the field at critical times. They don't mesh.
Maybe it's their way of breaking tendencies. That's the biggest rationalization that comes to mind.

Good observation, NorthHawk. I think this could be overcome by focusing on getting first downs.

Problem now is most people think you gotta' score big in the NFL. Most people hate the "ugly wins." While I think Pete gets this, and maybe even Bevell, too - they certainly have demonstrated their own susceptibility to think this way themselves from time to time. And so, they try to run up the score when that really doesn't need to be their focus (Both Carroll and Bevell tried this in the Super Bowl when we were up by 10 in the 3rd Qtr), or they do everything they can to run down the clock when we find ourselves with a lead - focusing on running off time with predictable 1st and 2nd down runs (as we did against the Bengals) when getting a first down ought to be the focus to begin with.

A few first downs go a long way to resting our defense, which plays faster than others. It helps enable the greatest strength of our team: the defense. Say all you want about "if they're a top D, then it shouldn't matter how much time they're out there." But it does matter. Watch the Atlanta D a couple weeks ago almost letting their lead slip to the Eagles when they let that offense get out of the bag, all because they found themselves with a lead and all of a sudden decided to get conservative offensively (their D was gassed and barely hung on). Same with our loss in San Diego last year in the 100+ degree heat. Same with the loss this Sunday.

Clock management is important, and running the ball to wind it down has its place. Exploiting leads with continued offensive attack has a place as well (I am usually a fan). But neither should displace the fundamental philosphy of trying to win the game by playing sound football ... whether you are up or down in a game. One of these fundamentals of good football is that leads should rarely be "protected" - especially when up only by 17 points with over 15 minutes remaining on the clock. Yeah, I said and I meant "ONLY." Three score leads shouldn't be "protected" at the earliest till the 2 minute warning ... cause once the first one of those three goes down (which'll likely happen against a good team with a suddenly conservative gameplan), it only takes two more ... which are doable with less than a minute on the clock.

I have found myself lately rooting less and less for points. Of course, this is what I want, but when you have a great D (which we have), first downs really go the distance in getting the Ws. With first downs, eventually the points happen. Less of a forcing function. More of a playing to one's strengths. Wish Carroll and Bevell hadn't succumbed to the temptation that so many others do on Sunday. But as a fan, I'm over it as of a couple hours ago.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[RiverDog]

"Russell has to take his fair share of the blame, too."

What (who) in the world would make you think he doesn't?

anthony

[RiverDog]

were did I say Wilson should get some of the blame? I never did, All I said was he is having a pretty good year. He has made some mistakes like all QBs including Rodgers does, but he has not been 1 of the top 3 reasons we have lost 3 games. A lot of the things like handing it off when DEs crash you are assuming he had another option, they have said a lot of the runs that look like RO are not they are run plays. As to the sacks yes a few are on him and yet there are a lot more than did not happen because of him. As I said he has made some mistakes as all players do but he is not in the top 3 for reason we are 2-3.

true, you didn't come out and say he was faultless like you did on the sb pick, but imo you were making excuses for him and lauding his performances by quoting his stats. you were not critical of a single thing pertaining to Russell. if you don't want to be thought of as a rw apologist, then start qualifying statements such as "he is having a pretty good year" by inserting the term "statistical" and quit comparing him to Aaron Rodgers. he isn't having half the season Rodgers is.

[Anthony]

anthony

That would be wrong no place did not I not say he should get some share of the blame.

[Anthony]

true, you didn't come out and say he was faultless like you did on the sb pick, but imo you were making excuses for him and lauding his performances by quoting his stats. you were not critical of a single thing pertaining to Russell. if you don't want to be thought of as a rw apologist, then start qualifying statements such as "he is having a pretty good year" by inserting the term "statistical" and quit comparing him to Aaron Rodgers. he isn't having half the season Rodgers is.

Hmm so let me get this right I did not say it, I have pointed out were he has made some mistakes. First I never compared him to Rodger at all, All I said and rightfully so is everyone makes mistakes even Rodgers. Which is true, cant handle the truth that is your problem. As to the rest I will call it like I see, don't like it don't read it. I even say a few of the mistake are on him, sorry dude you are fishing and right now your catching nothing. Everything I said is the truth. In fact I will break it down for you

"were did I say Wilson should get some of the blame? I never did" Fact I never said it

"All I said was he is having a pretty good year.[/u] He has made some mistakes like all QBs including Rodgers does, but he has not been 1 of the top 3 reasons we have lost 3 games." Again fact

"A lot of the things like handing it off when DEs crash you are assuming he had another option, they have said a lot of the runs that look like RO are not they are run plays. " again fact

"As to the sacks yes a few are on him " Fact

"there are a lot more than did not happen because of him." Fact

"As I said he has made some mistakes as all players do but he is not in the top 3 for reason we are 2-3" fact

Hmm wow all fats to include some if being his fault. Sounds like you have well nothing

[RiverDog]

Hmm so let me get this right I did not say it, I have pointed out were he has made some mistakes. First I never compared him to Rodger at all, All I said and rightfully so is everyone makes mistakes even Rodgers. Which is true, cant handle the truth that is your problem. As to the rest I will call it like I see, don't like it don't read it. I even say a few of the mistake are on him, sorry dude you are fishing and right now your catching nothing. Everything I said is the truth. In fact I will break it down for you

"were did I say Wilson should get some of the blame? I never did" Fact I never said it

"All I said was he is having a pretty good year.[/u] He has made some mistakes like all QBs including Rodgers does, but he has not been 1 of the top 3 reasons we have lost 3 games." Again fact

fact? that's not a fact, it's an opinion, a higly biased one imo. I, for one, do not believe that rw is having a "pretty good year", at least not from what we've become accustomed to seeing.

"A lot of the things like handing it off when DEs crash you are assuming he had another option, they have said a lot of the runs that look like RO are not they are run plays. " again fact

"As to the sacks yes a few are on him " Fact

fact? says who? You?

"there are a lot more than did not happen because of him." Fact

again, says who?

"As I said he has made some mistakes as all players do but he is not in the top 3 for reason we are 2-3" fact

That's not a fact. You cannot provide anything more than a subjective analysis to support that statement.

Hmm wow all fats to include some if being his fault. Sounds like you have well nothing

You do not understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. Almost everything you have stated above is an opinion, some, such as "pretty good year" and "top 3 reasons" , are highly debatable opinions that can't be quantified. They are subject to interpretation, in the eye of the beholder.

IMO Aaron Rodgers has had a near perfect season so far, and his team's 5-0 record reflects that. It is showing no disrespect to rw or any other quarterback to say that his season doesn't compare with Rodgers.

[Anthony]

You do not understand the difference between a fact and an opinion. Almost everything you have stated above is an opinion, some, such as "pretty good year" and "top 3 reasons" , are highly debatable opinions that can't be quantified. They are subject to interpretation, in the eye of the beholder.

IMO Aaron Rodgers has had a near perfect season so far, and his team's 5-0 record reflects that. It is showing no disrespect to rw or any other quarterback to say that his season doesn't compare with Rodgers.

Sure I do it is your OPINION that the FACTS I Presented are not FACTS even though they are. But hey you keep trying though. abe one day. Hope your feeling better.

[RiverDog]

Sure I do it is your OPINION that the FACTS I Presented are not FACTS even though they are. But hey you keep trying though. abe one day. Hope your feeling better.

So what is it that makes it a fact that Russell Wilson is the 4th, 5th, or whatever rank that you choose to assign to it as reason for our struggles?

btw, thanks for the well wishes

[Anthony]

So what is it that makes it a fact that Russell Wilson is the 4th, 5th, or whatever rank that you choose to assign to it as reason for our struggles?

btw, thanks for the well wishes

Okay first

Are you really going to tell me the oline is not the biggest issue. every expert out there and all the facts show it is.
then every expert out there has shown that our pass patterns are bad, Huard showed how Cincys Dbs were running our routes better than our WR
Every expert out there has shown are play calling is bad.

That is 3 already and I am still not on Wilson

Look at this video were Collingsworth uses facts to show some of the main issues with the team, Wilson is not one of them

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... s-edition/

Like I said all you need to do is look at the facts and stats and it is obvious that while Wilson does have some culpability in the issues with the team he is far down on the list.

[RiverDog]

Okay first

Are you really going to tell me the oline is not the biggest issue. every expert out there and all the facts show it is.
then every expert out there has shown that our pass patterns are bad, Huard showed how Cincys Dbs were running our routes better than our WR
Every expert out there has shown are play calling is bad.

That is 3 already and I am still not on Wilson

Look at this video were Collingsworth uses facts to show some of the main issues with the team, Wilson is not one of them

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... s-edition/

Like I said all you need to do is look at the facts and stats and it is obvious that while Wilson does have some culpability in the issues with the team he is far down on the list.

You are not presenting facts. You are presenting other opinions to support your own.

Your ranking Russell no higher than 3rd on our list of problems is an opinion just like power rankings and Players of the Week are opinions.

[Anthony]

You are not presenting facts. You are presenting other opinions to support your own.

Your ranking Russell no higher than 3rd on our list of problems is an opinion just like power rankings and Players of the Week are opinions.

I presented facts as well, Collingsworth uses facts top support all he says, but since you want to argue, I presume in your mind Wilson is at least 3rd if not higher. Or are you just arguing to argue.

[RiverDog]

I presented facts as well, Collingsworth uses facts top support all he says, but since you want to argue, I presume in your mind Wilson is at least 3rd if not higher. Or are you just arguing to argue.

If I say it's cold outside, it's 40 degrees, that doesn't mean I have stated as fact that it is cold. I am using the fact that it's 40 degrees to support my opinion that it is cold. Someone else may not think that 40 degrees is cold.

You (and Collingsworth, for that matter) are using facts to support your opinions. They do not make your opinions factual.

Since you asked, I do think that Russell's performance has been a major factor in our 2-3 record this season. Would I rank it as #3? Perhaps. Last Sunday, most certainly. All he needed to do was convert on just one first down given several opportunities. He's playing in the most influential position on the field, so I can't see how he can escape from having a high degree of responsibility for our record. He has not played well at all, certainly not what we've come to expect. He used to lead us on game winning, 4th quarter, OT drives. Now we've lost when leading in the 4th quarter in 4 of our past 6 games.

We've scored a bunch of points on defense and ST this season, way more than the norm. Our offense has yet to put up 20 points on their own.

[Anthony]

If I say it's cold outside, it's 40 degrees, that doesn't mean I have stated as fact that it is cold. I am using the fact that it's 40 degrees to support my opinion that it is cold. Someone else may not think that 40 degrees is cold.

You (and Collingsworth, for that matter) are using facts to support your opinions. They do not make your opinions factual.

Since you asked, I do think that Russell's performance has been a major factor in our 2-3 record this season. Would I rank it as #3? Perhaps. Last Sunday, most certainly. All he needed to do was convert on just one first down given several opportunities. He's playing in the most influential position on the field, so I can't see how he can escape from having a high degree of responsibility for our record. He has not played well at all, certainly not what we've come to expect. He used to lead us on game winning, 4th quarter, OT drives. Now we've lost when leading in the 4th quarter in 4 of our past 6 games.

We've scored a bunch of points on defense and ST this season, way more than the norm. Our offense has yet to put up 20 points on their own.

Okay so now you are playing the semantic game. We also had a 4th qtr lead in all those games, we are use to our defense holding that lead yet you still put him 3rd. To me this is about nothing more than you wanting to argue. You want to say he is #3 fine go for it, I do not, and thankfully the facts, stats and experts support me.

[RiverDog]

Okay so now you are playing the semantic game. We also had a 4th qtr lead in all those games, we are use to our defense holding that lead yet you still put him 3rd. To me this is about nothing more than you wanting to argue. You want to say he is #3 fine go for it, I do not, and thankfully the facts, stats and experts support me.

My argument with you was over what constitutes a fact and what is an opinion, not whether or not Russell is the #3 reason for our ills.

If you choose to minimize Russell's responsibility for our current situation, then that's fine with me. After all, this is an opinion forum, and we are all here to express our own opinions. But please do not state your opinion as if it were a fact. You are stating your opinions as if they are some sort of undeniable truth.

[Anthony]

My argument with you was over what constitutes a fact and what is an opinion, not whether or not Russell is the #3 reason for our ills.

If you choose to minimize Russell's responsibility for our current situation, then that's fine with me. After all, this is an opinion forum, and we are all here to express our own opinions. But please do not state your opinion as if it were a fact. You are stating your opinions as if they are some sort of undeniable truth.

except once again I am using facts. and FYI your original beef was

""Russell has to take his fair share of the blame, too."




c_hawkbob wrote:
What (who) in the world would make you think he doesn't?

Anthony"

when you then realized I never said it and you were wrong you then went on to something else, nice try. Again the facts s clearly show he is not even in the top 3 of problems, you are the only one who seems to want to ignore the facts.

[HumanCockroach]

Enjoy the "fact train" ( which is really the opinion train RD.

And FYI, all Wilson "had" to do was deliver a ball, from a clean pocket to an wide open receiver at the end of the game, instead he started to run, drastically under threw the receiver and list the game. It certainly isn't all on him, anywhere than ANY loss is all on one unit, or group, in any of the losses, but he DOES hold responsibility regardless of what some fanboys insist. Truth is, in that game, his blame is probably higher than third ( also blew a TD throw by leading Lockett out of bounds instead of leading him into the middle, letting him use his speed to score another TD, list at least three points by zoning into Graham and throwing a rookie pick, running from a clean pocket into a tackle on third and short, etc) pretending like those poor throws, or decisions didn't have an enormous impact displays how truly blind some can be.

In order:

1) Wilson

2) Defense

3) Punt cover

( at least for the Bengals game)

[Anthony]

Enjoy the "fact train" ( which is really the opinion train RD.

And FYI, all Wilson "had" to do was deliver a ball, from a clean pocket to an wide open receiver at the end of the game, instead he started to run, drastically under threw the receiver and list the game. It certainly isn't all on him, anywhere than ANY loss is all on one unit, or group, in any of the losses, but he DOES hold responsibility regardless of what some fanboys insist. Truth is, in that game, his blame is probably higher than third ( also blew a TD throw by leading Lockett out of bounds instead of leading him into the middle, letting him use his speed to score another TD, list at least three points by zoning into Graham and throwing a rookie pick, running from a clean pocket into a tackle on third and short, etc) pretending like those poor throws, or decisions didn't have an enormous impact displays how truly blind some can be.

In order:

1) Wilson

2) Defense

3) Punt cover

( at least for the Bengals game)

What a surprise you list Wilson first, color me surprised. LOL

[RiverDog]

Enjoy the "fact train" ( which is really the opinion train RD.

And FYI, all Wilson "had" to do was deliver a ball, from a clean pocket to an wide open receiver at the end of the game, instead he started to run, drastically under threw the receiver and list the game. It certainly isn't all on him, anywhere than ANY loss is all on one unit, or group, in any of the losses, but he DOES hold responsibility regardless of what some fanboys insist. Truth is, in that game, his blame is probably higher than third ( also blew a TD throw by leading Lockett out of bounds instead of leading him into the middle, letting him use his speed to score another TD, list at least three points by zoning into Graham and throwing a rookie pick, running from a clean pocket into a tackle on third and short, etc) pretending like those poor throws, or decisions didn't have an enormous impact displays how truly blind some can be.

In order:

1) Wilson

2) Defense

3) Punt cover

( at least for the Bengals game)

Not a "fact train". More like a fact merry-go-round. I got off at the same place I got on.

Your ranking is pretty much how I'd rate the Cincy game, although I'm not sure I'd elevate punt coverage as high as you have it. But definitely Russell and our defense has to rank 1-2. Damn defense lost their aggressiveness in the 4th quarter, like they had some sense of entitlement. They've forgotten how they got to being a great D. Both sides of the ball took their foot off the pedal. Hopefully that changes this afternoon.

It's not that Russell stunk up the field. He played well enough to win given different circumstances, ie vs. a team like the Bears or Lions, a team other than a top 5 offense. Our O put up 17 points last Sunday, and hasn't managed to put up 20 all season. That's not going to cut it against teams like the Bengals. Russell didn't play up to expectations, and hasn't played to those expectations for most of the season. Sure, the OL sucks, but the OL has sucked before and we've always found ways to win. That doesn't mean that I'm throwing him under the bus or that I've lost complete confidence in him, rather that I recognize his challenges. I still feel that he is the best quarterback in the league for our team.

Russell has to take that next step in his development and start making plays from the pocket on a more consistent basis if we are to get back to being a SB contender. Too many times I see him with happy feet or tries to break the pocket and ends up running into a sack. On another site, one poster showed a video of a play last Sunday with Russell dancing around in the pocket with multiple open receivers at the 10-15 yard range that he wasn't seeing due to his happy feet. There was another that he took a near horse collar sack from a speed rushing DE rather than taking a couple of steps into the pocket.

Russell's play IS one of the top reasons for our dilemma. He's the quarterback, for crying out loud. He was one of the primary reasons for our success. Doesn't it make sense that he would be one the top reasons for our current demise?

[Anthony]

Not a "fact train". More like a fact merry-go-round. I got off at the same place I got on.

Your ranking is pretty much how I'd rate the Cincy game, although I'm not sure I'd elevate punt coverage as high as you have it. But definitely Russell and our defense has to rank 1-2. Damn defense lost their aggressiveness in the 4th quarter, like they had some sense of entitlement. They've forgotten how they got to being a great D. Both sides of the ball took their foot off the pedal. Hopefully that changes this afternoon.

It's not that Russell stunk up the field. He played well enough to win given different circumstances, ie vs. a team like the Bears or Lions, a team other than a top 5 offense. Our O put up 17 points last Sunday, and hasn't managed to put up 20 all season. That's not going to cut it against teams like the Bengals. Russell didn't play up to expectations, and hasn't played to those expectations for most of the season. Sure, the OL sucks, but the OL has sucked before and we've always found ways to win. That doesn't mean that I'm throwing him under the bus or that I've lost complete confidence in him, rather that I recognize his challenges. I still feel that he is the best quarterback in the league for our team.

Russell has to take that next step in his development and start making plays from the pocket on a more consistent basis if we are to get back to being a SB contender. Too many times I see him with happy feet or tries to break the pocket and ends up running into a sack. On another site, one poster showed a video of a play last Sunday with Russell dancing around in the pocket with multiple open receivers at the 10-15 yard range that he wasn't seeing due to his happy feet. There was another that he took a near horse collar sack from a speed rushing DE rather than taking a couple of steps into the pocket.

Russell's play IS one of the top reasons for our dilemma. He's the quarterback, for crying out loud. He was one of the primary reasons for our success. Doesn't it make sense that he would be one the top reasons for our current demise?

I think the top reason is coaching

OC, DC, and PC. YEs he is one of the top reasons for our success but as you and other have made it clear he is not #1 the defense it then make sense the defenses who has given up late leads in a lot fo out losses should be #1 now. All that said I think coaching is the top reason, starting with OC, DC, And PC