Official Seahawks vs Carolina POST Game Thread

[HumanCockroach]

Maybe Savvy, Hell I don't know. I DO know what I saw first hand, and it worries me.

[Anthony]

Telling you what I saw, first hand Anthony, you want to ignore it? Go ahead, I could give a flying f#@k . Truth is, Wilson looked scared to throw the football, afraid more of a turnover, than a loss. There were receivers open ALL day, on EVERY play, and I'm not talking about 5 yard slants and crossing routes, though there was a ton of those as well. There's no "agenda", I want the Wilson that made those throws, found ways to win, no matter how he has played up until then. I'm begging for him to get past that mental hurdle, not trashing him, ala you with a former Seahawk QB until he does expect more of the same results.

In fact there were so many of them, that multiple fans were arguing on which open receiver he should have thrown to but missed for the majority of plays. That is the "facts" and nothing but the facts, hell it got to the point where Bevfool was being given a fricken pass.

again can you tell me if they were open when it was their turn in the progression NO, can you tell me what Rw saw NO, can you tell me what the play call was NO. So basically all you can tell me is when you looked they were open which doe snot mean they were open when the QB looked so you really cant tell me anything. Once again you may want this Wilson but you do not know what is marching orders are. So what you want and what he is being told to do may not match. SO once again you really know nothing but what you saw, at the time you saw it which may not match with what was happening at field level or at the time. So thanks well for nothing. FYI I had 10 people at the games I know they all said in most cases no one was open at the time Wilson was looking at them, they either got open late or after their return in the progression. OR so it seemed to them. Now this like yours means little however when the announcers are also saying on one is open I tend to side with them rather than your agenda. Like I said thanks but not buying it.

Now of course if you can tell me you know exactly what play was called, exactly the progressions, exactly which wr was what number in the progression and exactly when they were open, and exactly what Wilson is seeing, and if he had time to throw it you really do not know and I can guarantee you unless you are standing as the QB you cannot know all those things you are simply guessing. Add to that you do not know what Wilsons marching orders how careful is he being told to be. So like I said you can say what you want, but frankly this comment makes your whole comment laughable "There were receivers open ALL day, on EVERY play, and I'm not talking about 5 yard slants and crossing routes, though there was a ton of those as well. " Sorry any chance of me believing you went out the window on this one.

[HumanCockroach]

Lol, yeah when I "happened" to look. Like I said, I could give a rats a$# what you think, or feel. Just relaying the information. Whether you want to ignore it, is up to you. I simply don't care, whether want the information of what happened or not, it IS what occurred on the majority of passing plays, his "progression" and decision making is a question ONLY Russell can answer.So spare me the claim that you know better than I what that was. Of the two of us, one watched each play develop in it's entirety, the other got a small glimpse on a TV.

You stick with whatever you "want" to stick with, I'll stick with what happened.

[RiverDog]

Having been at the game, and watching from above, I can honestly say, I am Damn near freaking out in regards to the Hawks QB, and defense ( the pass defense in particular). Russ left probably 400 yards and 4 TDS on that field, and I am NOT including the overthrow to Lockett.

The defensive backfield as well as the LB core looks like a comedy of errors in coverage, with it seems no one either knowing their assignment, or at least not communicating. Lots, and I mean LOTS of confusion in the fourth quarter.

And Russ, if the team wanted Jackson out there ( he of the I will not throw it no matter how open the receiver is) he would be starting boss, and he would be a lot cheaper. Whatever that mental hurdle is, that is lingering, we forgive you man, now please, go back to what you were, you weren't terrified of throwing a pick in the fourth quarter, the guy that went for the jugular, this version, the "safe" you, isn't cutting it. Throw five picks, then win the game, that's fine, because you won the game!

I was waiting for someone knowledgeable that was at the game to weigh in. Both myself and IG attended the game in Cincy, and that's what we were seeing, too, especially IG as he has a better eye for looking at the entire field than I do. All too often, I fall into the lazy man's way of watching football, ie just following the ball and not paying attention to the coverage, but fortunately I was watching with someone who was prompting me to watch the entire field.

The league has figured out how to defend against Russell. They are sending their DE's wide, and when Russell tries his little Fran Tarkenton reverse spin, he loses sight of the defender and when he comes around, he blindly runs right into one of them, such as what happened on our next to last series the first down play that Beast got caught holding. The DE forced Russell deep, nearly sacked him in the process, and put Beast in a bad position where he was desperate to help and got caught extending his hands. Sure, Russell is going to still get outside occasionally and make a play or two from outside the pocket just like he did on the previous play, but all it takes is one bad play to put us in a 1st and 20 and blow up the drive. Russell is going to have to start making plays from inside the pocket, or at least step up inside the DE instead of always using his pirouette move, and give his blockers a chance to push the speed rush to the outside. Right now, all the defender has to do is stand out there and wait for Russell to come to him.

These DC's aren't stupid. They see Russell doing things that burn other teams so they will make adjustments to take away the things he does best. Russell hasn't made a counter adjustment, and if you can't change your style of play to adapt to how the defense has changed, you're dead meat, which is where we stand today. It's not going to get any better until Russell can take that next step in his development.

[NorthHawk]

If you watch Wilson when he drops back, he sometimes gets "happy feet".
It seems to me that when QBs get that they often start looking at which DL is breaking through the line instead of which WR is breaking open.
The Fight or Flight response gets pretty heavy when a QB starts getting beat up regularly.
I hope I'm wrong as it could set Wilson back a couple of years in development if not stop his progress completely.

[HumanCockroach]

Absolutely North, and NO play is a better example than the missed happy feet throw to Lockett last week in a clean pocket. Wilson HAS to get by that, truth is, some of those hits are on him, release the ball, the line HAS improved drastically the last several weeks, maybe Russ is experiencing a "lag" in trusting them, and will get there, but I sure wish he would throw the ball when he DOES have the time, and MULTIPLE open targets...

[obiken]

He is getting Happy feet because their is no pocket! Like Howie Long was saying we are getting crushed up the middle, period. Our Center and Guards are just getting killed. This dump on RW is starting to piss me off.

[NorthHawk]

He is getting Happy feet because their is no pocket! Like Howie Long was saying we are getting crushed up the middle, period. Our Center and Guards are just getting killed. This dump on RW is starting to piss me off.

I'm just pointing out what I see and it's the end result of constant pressure - often immediately after the snap.
I've been a critic of the OL for the last couple of years, to the point of almost being pilloried and called a whiner.
This is one of the few occasions I hate being right.

The OL has shown some signs of improvement, but opposing Defenses are on the attack now because it's a known weakness.
The last couple of years we had enough ability to get 3 or 4 yards with Marshawn per play and occasionally break a big one, but this year we often see a DL in the backfield disrupting the play. Since the OL hasn't been able to impose its will on the Defense or grind them down during the first 3 quarters, the 4th quarter is much tougher to play the way we did last year and be successful.

[obiken]

Right, but I am laying off RW until I see him throwing a lot of picks. He is doing his job. The have 3 Lineman that are NOT Nfl level.

[kalibane]

Exactly Obi. A lot of the issues (even though they are his mistakes) are things he did not used to do but which are often associated with a QB who is not being protected very well.

- Breaking the Pocket Early
- Happy Feet
- Rushing/Sailing easy throws
- Bringing eyes down towards the rush instead of staying up field.

[RiverDog]

He is getting Happy feet because their is no pocket! Like Howie Long was saying we are getting crushed up the middle, period. Our Center and Guards are just getting killed. This dump on RW is starting to piss me off.

No one's dumping on RW, obi. Wilson's "happy feet" is a normal human reaction. He's so used to the pocket breaking down that when his first look isn't there, he gets nervous and starts looking for where the rush is going to come from even when the protection is adequate. It's a response associated with an event, like Pavlov's dog being conditioned to salivate at the sound of a bell.

Somebody a month or so compared Russell's situation to David Carr, who was so shell shocked while playing for the expansion Texans that he never had a fair chance to develop his quarterbacking skills. Russell needs to fight his very human instinct to always look to break the pocket, to stand strong even if it costs him a sack or two. He used to do quite well at it, but it's gotten worse as our offensive line, which has never been very good in the first place, has deteriorated the way it has this season.

[kalibane]

Well I compared the offensive line to the one protecting David Carr, not necessarily the QBs to each other. But the thing is no one is immune. When Aaron Rodgers had one of the worst lines in the league a few years ago (though not this bad) he was doing some very unRodgers type things. You take enough of a pounding and it will get to anyone after a while.

[Hawk Sista]

Agreed. As a Fresno State (and David Carr) fan, I've always wondered who he could have been if he had a line of any sort. It was an abysmal situation and one from which he never recovered. I have to say I thought about that before I read the comment a week or two back. Russell's got to work really hard to get the production he is getting and one can see the impacts of the shoddy line play showing up in other stat lines too. We are 29th in the league right now at getting first downs. That is simply not going to cut it if we intend to move out of this cellar.

[RiverDog]

Well I compared the offensive line to the one protecting David Carr, not necessarily the QBs to each other. But the thing is no one is immune. When Aaron Rodgers had one of the worst lines in the league a few years ago (though not this bad) he was doing some very unRodgers type things. You take enough of a pounding and it will get to anyone after a while.

I couldn't remember who brought up Carr or in what context it came up in, and I wasn't necessarily saying that Carr and Wilson shared anything more than being like ducks in a firing line. I remember feeling sorry for Carr, thinking that he seemed like a quarterback that had some promise but was ruined by a sieve of an offensive line, and his career never really got off the ground because of it.

Yes, Rodgers got sacked a whole bunch earlier in his career. I think we sacked him 8 times in just one half in the Fail Mary game. I haven't followed Rodgers as closely as I have Russell, but it would seem that Rodgers has learned how to manage the pocket, something Russell has yet to do. Russell has said that his personal role model is Drew Brees, and if anyone watched Brees's performance last Thursday, Russell would be well advised to start watching some Saints film, although our OL is worse than the Saints.

And sis, I tried making heads and tails out of that first down stat, but I didn't factor in the fact that not all teams have played the same number of games. Did you account for teams like the Rams, Jets, Dolphins, et al having only played 5 games? The other thing that would be interesting is to look at the 3 and out stats. I don't imagine we'd be much better than 29th.

[savvyman]

While Russell has accountability for some questionable decisions and execution errors in the first 6 games - I am inclined to forgive all of them because it is understandable that he has become fearful in the pocket from the complete beating he has taken not only this season but pretty much most games last year too.

[NorthHawk]

As I have been saying for the last couple of years, it all starts up front. Not much on Offense works well without good OL play.
It's starting to look like this year will be sacrificed in part to develop an OL that can function consistently for 4 quarters.
It takes time for an OL to work together and I would suspect even more time for players learning how to play on the Offensive side of the ball.

[RiverDog]

While Russell has accountability for some questionable decisions and execution errors in the first 6 games - I am inclined to forgive all of them because it is understandable that he has become fearful in the pocket from the complete beating he has taken not only this season but pretty much most games last year too.

For me, it's not a matter of forgiveness. Russell is a human being, and as much as he studies and prepares, he's going to need a learning curve as he adapts his game to changing conditions, ie other teams figuring him out. For one thing, he can't use that Fran Tarkenton spin move when he's in the middle of the pocket as he takes his eyes off the rush and loses track of his receivers. The DE's have been instructed not to get caught inside and is just standing there waiting for him while they're sending a 5th pass rusher up the middle to close off his throwing/running lane. His internal clock needs to be reset backwards by about 1.5-2.0 seconds. And he needs to get out of this mind set that he's Houdini, and can escape from any situation. He has to understand that teams have adjusted, and have taken that part of his game away.

I don't see the situation getting better overnight. This is going to be a season long process, and in the offseason, we're going to have to use our Top 10 pick to draft the best OT available. I wouldn't mind seeing us trade someone like Michael Bennett if we can find a trading partner. Our team doesn't need to be blown up, but we do need to reconfigure ourselves.

[NorthHawk]

He doesn't get much of a chance to throw from the pocket on many occasions before a defender is almost on him.
Too many for him to build any confidence in the guys up front in my opinion. The leaks come from any of the positions and sometimes more than one.

That's not to say he can't do better. When he does have time, he has to get the ball out when the WR is breaking open or throwing him open.
Graham and Matthews usually have a mismatch on their defenders, so he has to trust them more.

Perhaps some more plays where he sprints out before throwing thus hopefully avoiding the pressure up the middle. It can also give the receivers time to find a hole or separate.

[RiverDog]

He doesn't get much of a chance to throw from the pocket on many occasions before a defender is almost on him.
Too many for him to build any confidence in the guys up front in my opinion. The leaks come from any of the positions and sometimes more than one.

That's not to say he can't do better. When he does have time, he has to get the ball out when the WR is breaking open or throwing him open.
Graham and Matthews usually have a mismatch on their defenders, so he has to trust them more.

Perhaps some more plays where he sprints out before throwing thus hopefully avoiding the pressure up the middle. It can also give the receivers time to find a hole or separate.

Teams are sending their DE's wider, which is why on so many occasions when Russell either boot legs or tries is patented reverse spin, he's running smack dab into the DE. That's going to limit what he can do on roll-outs.

Bevell is going to have to start coming up with some play designs to take advantage of the absent linebacker they're sending on just about every potential passing down. Russell has to start making some plays from the pocket, or we need to start running the ball more effectively off tackle, especially in the 4th quarter, if anything is going to change.

That's why I'm so pessimistic. I don't see anything changing on the OL that's going to result in 4th quarter run productivity or significantly better pass protection. I think this season is in the tank.

So, which OT are we going to take with our Top 10 pick?

[NorthHawk]

They'll select a DT and if he doesn't pan out, they'll give him to Cable.

[HumanCockroach]

If that's what they are doing, it is not difficult to take advantage of, in fact it makes it EASIER for the tackles, course that means stepping up and out the side, instead of sprinting sideways, but any OC should be able to counter that, especially with a mobile QB and a Beast in the backfield.

[RiverDog]

If that's what they are doing, it is not difficult to take advantage of, in fact it makes it EASIER for the tackles, course that means stepping up and out the side, instead of sprinting sideways, but any OC should be able to counter that, especially with a mobile QB and a Beast in the backfield.

When they rush 4, sure it does, it provides an opportunity to step inside. But by rushing 5 it narrows down all the lanes and allows the DE to take a wider angle. Plus Russell's first instinct is to use his little pirouette move, so he loses track of that outside defender when he turns to spin. The DE sees Russell turning to spin and he takes one step to the outside and is there to greet him. They're not getting caught inside like they used to. Russell has over used that reverse spin move.

But I agree, there has to be a way to counter those adjustments. There always is.

[HumanCockroach]

Even bringing five should be a simple adjustment. I think the biggest thing is the "delay" of the fifth rusher. If he rushes off the snap, a back ( Lynch most likely) will be there to add protection ( though honestly there should be two in the middle able to pick up the fifth rusher), the issue I see is that with all the pressure that has been felt, Wilson is looking to get out of the pocket the second he sniffs an opposing defender and with the delay, Lynch ( or Rauls or Jackson) have leaked out into a route already. Still something that is usually counterable by good OC. I'm disappointed they haven't figured out a way to make defenses pay for it ( especially since they have been doing it all season).

[RiverDog]

Even bringing five should be a simple adjustment. I think the biggest thing is the "delay" of the fifth rusher. If he rushes off the snap, a back ( Lynch most likely) will be there to add protection ( though honestly there should be two in the middle able to pick up the fifth rusher), the issue I see is that with all the pressure that has been felt, Wilson is looking to get out of the pocket the second he sniffs an opposing defender and with the delay, Lynch ( or Rauls or Jackson) have leaked out into a route already. Still something that is usually counterable by good OC. I'm disappointed they haven't figured out a way to make defenses pay for it ( especially since they have been doing it all season).

Good points.

[burrrton]

If he rushes off the snap, a back ( Lynch most likely) will be there to add protection ( though honestly there should be two in the middle able to pick up the fifth rusher), the issue I see is that with all the pressure that has been felt, Wilson is looking to get out of the pocket the second he sniffs an opposing defender and with the delay, Lynch ( or Rauls or Jackson) have leaked out into a route already.

Isn't the response to that supposed to be throwing it to the outlet (the back that vacated)?

Some of it there is just no getting around- if the D can commit defenders to the outlet *and* get to your QB in an instant, there really is little you can do about it. But I *think* that delayed rush should leave someone open- we're just not hitting him yet.

[c_hawkbob]

I keep seeing on the talking head shows that teams like Carolina and Cincinnati and even Denver are undefeated but it's "smoke and mirrors", that their level of success in unsustainable over the course of the season. That's kinda how I feel about us and our losing record.

Even though it is a whole lot easier to sustain a losing streak than a winning streak, given the level of talent on our team, and the fact the issues we're having are predominately communication errors and not a lack of effort or skill, I don't see our losing these close games in the 4th quarter as a sustainable trend.

[THX-1138]

Less a post about X's and O's than about gut feelings and emotional responses.

Something aint right. Obviously the converted Offensive Frankenline is an embarrassment. But there seems to be a lack of fire from the team. Sherman has a family now and seems more willing to compliment his opponents now rather than bully them around and trash talk them into making mistakes. When this was coupled with his talent as a corner it gave him a distinctive edge. I can't blame Earl for missing so much (all) of the preseason because he was broken. But now the decision making seems to be suspect. And Chancellor's holdout has to be playing a factor into why the Legion of Boom is more like the Legion of Meh. Too much worrying about how many more millions they can make and not enough about winning games and being elite, like the good old days of a couple years ago. And I'm a bit worried about the sustained durability of Bobby Wagner.

They just don't SEEM as hungry. That's a kind of dumb comment, I know, but it's how the season thus far strikes me.

I won't even go into the vehicular situations with the RB corps. Or the suspect Offensive and Defensive coordinators. Pete is still golden in my book. Owners own, coaches coach, and players play. I think he still is coaching the way he has always coached, and I certainly believe that Paul Allen hasn't changed his ownership style(?). It's the players that don't seem to be doing things the same way that they used to. There doesn't seem to be repetition in execution.

Anyway, when the Seahawks play the way they have so far then I'm just like them: I don't finish the game, either.

[RiverDog]

I keep seeing on the talking head shows that teams like Carolina and Cincinnati and even Denver are undefeated but it's "smoke and mirrors", that their level of success in unsustainable over the course of the season. That's kinda how I feel about us and our losing record.

Even though it is a whole lot easier to sustain a losing streak than a winning streak, given the level of talent on our team, and the fact the issues we're having are predominately communication errors and not a lack of effort or skill, I don't see our losing these close games in the 4th quarter as a sustainable trend.

The communication errors you are referring to have been on defense, and that was a problem in the Carolina game, and yes, they are fixable. But it's not a cure all for what is wrong with this team. As you well know, protecting 4th quarter leads is a task that falls on the offense as much as it does the defense, and I don't see anything that can be done in the short order that is now required that is going to change much with that unit.

We have 10 games left and we can only afford to lose 2, perhaps 3 more games if we want a viable shot, meaning that we are going to have to go on an 8-2 or 7-3 run. Unless we undergo a substantial change from what we have seen in these first 6 games and do so very quickly, starting tomorrow night, I think that it is very unlikely that we will even make the playoffs let alone get back to the SB.

Sorry to be such a stick in the mud, but I have to be honest.

[c_hawkbob]

Any of those three big, never should have happened comeback looses could have been prevented with a single better series by either the offense or the defense. Again, we knew coming in we were gonna have problems on offense, our defense rectifying it's problems will be enough to get us back on the winning track until such time as the offensive line gets their act together.

[RiverDog]

Any of those three big, never should have happened comeback looses could have been prevented with a single better series by either the offense or the defense. Again, we knew coming in we were gonna have problems on offense, our defense rectifying it's problems will be enough to get us back on the winning track until such time as the offensive line gets their act together.

The problem is that there isn't much time for the offensive line to get their act together, to be specific, 5 days, and we've been waiting since the first preseason game when it first became apparent what our problem was going to be, and since then, we have seen scant evidence that this group will ever get their act together. Plus it's not just the offensive line we're talking about. As has been discussed at great lengths, Russell has struggled mightily, too.

We can't expect the defense and special teams to play perfect football for the next 10 games while we wait on the offense. Thanks to our 2-4 start, the margin for error is razor thin. I don't think our problems are as easy to fix as you do.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think that this is our year.

[Hawk Sista]

It surely doesn't feel like our year to me, right now either - RD. And yet everything Bob says is also true. I can see us just missing the playoffs and I can see us going on a pretty good run here, like we did last year. How it feels to me this Wednesday evening is that our woes are different this year. There is the super bowl hangover, players getting paid, a few key injuries etc....but the biggest difference is that this mess of an O-line is a bigger mess than it has ever been (as is evidenced by starting Lewis over Nowak and bringing in the other Center Jean-Pierre - AGAIN). Our margin for error is disappearing with each 4th quarter loss and our line isn't good enough to play through a line that thin.

I do believe it is possible, but with every check in the loss column - it certainly becomes less probable. Tomorrow, while certainly not mathematically, feels like a MUST WIN game, for sure.

[burrrton]

As has been discussed at great lengths, Russell has struggled mightily, too.

Agreed, but we all know what RW can do when given the time- unless this line has done irreparable harm on his psyche, which I doubt, RW is a known (read: good) quantity.

The unknown right now is the o-line and how much of the offense they can take down the toilet with them if they don't turn it around.

[RiverDog]

Agreed, but we all know what RW can do when given the time- unless this line has done irreparable harm on his psyche, which I doubt, RW is a known (read: good) quantity.

The unknown right now is the o-line and how much of the offense they can take down the toilet with them if they don't turn it around.

I don't think it is irreparable, but I do think that he's lost confidence in the OL to such a degree that it's going to take more than a week or two to get it back. Right now, he has a conditioned response burned into his memory, something that only repetitive good experiences can cure. That's one of the reasons why I don't think that this is our year. In order for Russell to get his head right about this offensive line to where he's not dancing around and looking for an escape as soon as his first read isn't open or when one of his OL starts to get beat, it's going to take multiple games with decent protection. With a 2-4 record, Russell needs to cure what ails him now, starting tonight, as we have to play well over .500 from here on out just to make the playoffs let alone reach our ultimate goal of getting this team back to being a serious SB contender.