Should Pete Have Fired Bevell After The SB?

[c_hawkbob]

Last in the league in red zone offense by a long shot, near the last in total first downs and offensive points production, 4-5 record including 5 blown 4th quarter leads (a product of that lack of first downs) on the heels of an average 12 wins per season over the previous 3 years that included two straight SB appearances and a Lombardi....yea, I'd say that it failed miserably.

None of those stats speak directly to down field passing.

[RiverDog]

None of those stats speak directly to down field passing.

Disagree. Our offense was clearly looking to throw the ball 20+ yards downfield in the first part of the season, one of the reasons for the extraordinarily high number of sacks given up, and we've clearly gone away from that tact. There's an undeniable relationship between our attempts at throwing the ball downfield and the stats and record that was their result as well as the positive results when we went away from that philosophy.

[c_hawkbob]

You don't rank 3 in the NFL in yards per attempt having failed miserably in the downfield passing game. Even for just half the year.

[NorthHawk]

You don't rank 3 in the NFL in yards per attempt having failed miserably in the downfield passing game. Even for just half the year.

Just out of curiosity, how do the stats account for short passes that go for long distances?
If a team is successful with bubble screens and they go for 20 or 30 yards on average, it would skew the stats big time because the pass might only be 1 yard, but the stat shows 30.
Same thing with shorter crossing routes where the pass is 5 -10 yards beyond the LoS, but the receiver takes if deep.

[politicalfootball]

I read that Bevell called a run to Lynch, & PC overruled him. That, imo, was enough to save his job.

If this is true then yes we keep Bevell without a doubt. Do you have any sources for this statement Vegaseahawk ?

[RiverDog]

I am frustrated by two things when it comes to this subject: 1) layman’s arrogance, and 2) impatience. Whether pleasing to Aristotle or not, I believe it is simple to pick apart a coordinator's work from the confines of one's couch. It is easy, particularly with hindsight and without having to deal with the realities of the real work. Further, the Hawks' success and the culture of NOW (I always think of the song "What Have You Done For Me Lately") have perpetuated the impatience. 24 hour TV (NFLN, ESPN), Twitter (and other social media avenues) and we need it now and now again. The impatience may have always been there, it just feels more acute to me now.... it has been especially pronounced the past two slow starts.

You can't say that any of us are impatient with regards to Darrell Bevell. 40% of all the coordinators are new to their teams this season, so at 4 years as our OC Bevell has to make him one of the longest tenured OC's in the league.

As far as layman's arrogance, yea, I'll plead guilty to that one. But that's the purpose of this forum and it's sole justification for it's existence.

[RiverDog]

"You don't rank 3 in the NFL in yards per attempt having failed miserably in the downfield passing game. Even for just half the year."

Just out of curiosity, how do the stats account for short passes that go for long distances?
If a team is successful with bubble screens and they go for 20 or 30 yards on average, it would skew the stats big time because the pass might only be 1 yard, but the stat shows 30.
Same thing with shorter crossing routes where the pass is 5 -10 yards beyond the LoS, but the receiver takes if deep.

Thanks, North. You answered that for me. It's like time of possession, a stat that can be woefully inadequate when used as a metric to gauge offensive performance.

The bottom line is that the offense's job is to score points and win football games, of which it was doing neither.

[Hawk Sista]

If we are to accept that PC and JS know best, how about in NY with the Giants and Coughlin? He's won twice as many Super Bowls as Pete, but is now said to be on the way out.
You don't have to be the conductor of the choir to know a singer is singing out of key. One can often see clearer from afar than while immersed in the minutiae of the job.

Impatience?
I've not been one to call for Bevell's head, I can see some of the points for it however I'm not fully convinced, but there are some who have wanted a change for a few years.
Boldly speaking for them, I think that's not impatient, but I do think that view crystallized for some who were leaning that way after the Super Bowl but still on the fence and confirmed that thought for those who already wanted him gone.

I wished that Pete had taken some time before declaring he was at fault in that play call. I think in those types of situations it's best to reflect before acting.
But that's water under the bridge, now.

To your first point - I'm not really paying attention to the Giants and their coaching staff. That said, the comparison doesn't feel legit as the gnats have been losing more than winning the last several years; they have missed the playoffs for at least three years and likely a 4th, if I'm not mistaken. There is a point where Pete and his philosophy will leave town. I'm just saying that I don't think it should be mid-stride. If they miss the playoffs for four straight years, it'd be time (or past time) for sure.

If "YOU" have not been impatient, then I have not been frustrated by YOU. I was specifically speaking of the impatience with the team's slow start this year, which I realize is not the thread title. but threads evolve and I was following the conversation. I agree that someone could have a legitimate issue with Bevel and want to see him gone. Several posters, fans, pundits have been in that camp for years; I'm just not one of them.

& finally..... I admired Pete for owning that fatal call and going on national TV to talk about his role in the call and helping players, coaches and the 12s heal. His handling of the situation made me respect him all the more.

[Hawk Sista]

You can't say that any of us are impatient with regards to Darrell Bevell. 40% of all the coordinators are new to their teams this season, so at 4 years as our OC Bevell has to make him one of the longest tenured OC's in the league.

As far as layman's arrogance, yea, I'll plead guilty to that one. But that's the purpose of this forum and it's sole justification for it's existence. RiverDog

As I said in the post above, my remark about impatience has more to do with patience with Bev and Cable this season than the thread title. The OP evolved, which happens often - the OP asks a specific question (or makes a specific assertion) and after 50 posts or so, the OP evolves to a wider discussion. I was specifically speaking about people's impatience with the struggles the team faced in the 1st half of the season. When things are not dialed in by week 5, lots of fans want someone's head and need someone to blame NOW! That's all I meant.

I agree River. That it frustrates me doesn't mean it should stop. I've even admitted to being party to playing the blame game after a loss, particularly when in the heat of the game. One only needs to watch me over react in a game thread to see that I have VERY emotional game time reactions too. For example, after week 2 the national media (mike and Mike, Colin Cowheard etc...) all started calling the Legion of Boom the Legion of Gloom or doom or whatever. We are a very reactionary society is my point.

[c_hawkbob]

Thanks, North. You answered that for me. It's like time of possession, a stat that can be woefully inadequate when used as a metric to gauge offensive performance.

The bottom line is that the offense's job is to score points and win football games, of which it was doing neither.

Again with the overstatement ... Woefully inadequate is it?

Not nearly as inadequate as wins and losses, defensive issues and previous years playoff success. No stat tells the whole story but YPC is the most closely associated stat available to the deep passing game.

I don't have near as much problem with what you say as I do with your trying to make everything look so extreme.

[Hawk Sista]

^^^^ This is kinda my point, Bob. Many fans need to exist in the extreme to feel engaged. It is the difference in approaches that likely creates conflict. It is either black or it is white.

It seems for you and me (among others), the answer is in the gray. Each of our 5 losses could have been wins even with all of our struggles......and now, when the chips are down, the O-line is starting to gel and the offense is clicking and making life a little easier on the defense. Injuries to the RB position and lack of depth are the two biggest barriers to playoff success. (listen for the horn tooting - isn't this what you and I thought would happen all along, Bob?) Overall, I'm pleased with the progress the team has made - it was both fun and frustrating watching the evolution of the team this year.

GO HAWKS!

[c_hawkbob]

^^^^ This is kinda my point, Bob. Many fans need to exist in the extreme to feel engaged. It is the difference in approaches that likely creates conflict. It is either black or it is white.

It seems for you and me (among others), the answer is in the gray. Each of our 5 losses could have been wins even with all of our struggles......and now, when the chips are down, the O-line is starting to gel and the offense is clicking and making life a little easier on the defense. Injuries to the RB position and lack of depth are the two biggest barriers to playoff success. Overall, I'm pleased with the progress the team has made - it was both fun and frustrating watching the evolution of the team this year.

GO HAWKS!

Just so Sis, just so!

[Hawk Sista]

damn, Bob. You got me before my edit

[c_hawkbob]

In answer to the question: Yes! It really is!

[mykc14]

^^^^ This is kinda my point, Bob. Many fans need to exist in the extreme to feel engaged. It is the difference in approaches that likely creates conflict. It is either black or it is white.

It seems for you and me (among others), the answer is in the gray. Each of our 5 losses could have been wins even with all of our struggles......and now, when the chips are down, the O-line is starting to gel and the offense is clicking and making life a little easier on the defense. Injuries to the RB position and lack of depth are the two biggest barriers to playoff success. (listen for the horn tooting - isn't this what you and I thought would happen all along, Bob?) Overall, I'm pleased with the progress the team has made - it was both fun and frustrating watching the evolution of the team this year.

GO HAWKS!

My position exactly.

[mykc14]

Just out of curiosity, how do the stats account for short passes that go for long distances?
If a team is successful with bubble screens and they go for 20 or 30 yards on average, it would skew the stats big time because the pass might only be 1 yard, but the stat shows 30.
Same thing with shorter crossing routes where the pass is 5 -10 yards beyond the LoS, but the receiver takes if deep.

The answer is they don't. A 1 yard pass that goes for 50 counts the same as a 50 yard bomb. With that being said the Hawks prior to the past 5 weeks haven't been a team that throws a lot of short passes that turn into big gains. A team like the Patriots really elevate their YPA because of their team YAC yards. The Hawks, on the other hand do not have a ton of YAC yardage. Even after this most recent offensive explosion we have the number 17 (ADB), 68 (Jimmy), and 76 (Tyler) ranked YAC players in the NFL. NE, on the other hand has 3 players in the top 22 in the NFL in YAC yards. Also, as far as team YAC goes we are currently ranked 20th. When that is adjusted per reception I would think we would move up, but still not in the top 10. When that is compared to our 3rd ranking YPA it is pretty clear that we are throwing the ball down the field more than most teams.

[NorthHawk]

Thanks mykc14.
I was kind of thinking NE when I asked, so better stats would have to weed out those types of plays to see what the actual numbers are for all the teams.
This stat could also mislead the reader of the accuracy of the deep throws, too as Brady might get a lot of YAC just because of the type of Offense they run. That doesn't mean he's a lesser QB, he makes the decisions as to who to throw the ball to after all, but that stat doesn't tell us if theirs or any Offense is efficient at deep throws without doing more work than what the raw stats might suggest.

[burrrton]

One of the good NFL analysis sites (Football Outsiders? Pro Football Focus?) has a rating that takes YAC (and a whole bunch of other stuff) into account, don't they?

[RiverDog]

Again with the overstatement ... Woefully inadequate is it?

Not nearly as inadequate as wins and losses, defensive issues and previous years playoff success. No stat tells the whole story but YPC is the most closely associated stat available to the deep passing game.

I don't have near as much problem with what you say as I do with your trying to make everything look so extreme.

Well, my actualy statement was "failed miserably", but the meaning is close enough.

I really don't care what our YPA was and I find our argument about it similar to my argument with Anthony when he was gloating over Russell Wilson having a career during the same period of time. The fact is that our quarterback was on pace to get sacked some 70 times, our red zone offense sucked big time and our offense was not scoring in general, we were not getting first downs, we couldn't protect a 4th quarter lead to save our arse, and most importantly, we were losing games at a rate we haven't seen in 3 years, so what ever we were doing or not doing, it wasn't working in a big way. That's what I based my "failed miserably" statement on. If you feel that's overstating it, then that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm standing by my statement.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh I didn't misquote you:

Thanks, North. You answered that for me. It's like time of possession, a stat that can be woefully inadequate when used as a metric to gauge offensive performance.

The bottom line is that the offense's job is to score points and win football games, of which it was doing neither.

You went "failed miserably" and "Woefully inadequate".

Listening to you a body would think it was 1992.

[RiverDog]

Oh I didn't misquote you:

Thanks, North. You answered that for me. It's like time of possession, a stat that can be woefully inadequate when used as a metric to gauge offensive performance.

The bottom line is that the offense's job is to score points and win football games, of which it was doing neither.

You went "failed miserably" and "Woefully inadequate".

Listening to you a body would think it was 1992.

And do you see a difference between "failed miserably" and "woefully inadequete"? I don't, and said so. Sorry if I don't remember the exact wording of every single statement I've made. Geez.

[RiverDog]

The answer is they don't. A 1 yard pass that goes for 50 counts the same as a 50 yard bomb. With that being said the Hawks prior to the past 5 weeks haven't been a team that throws a lot of short passes that turn into big gains. A team like the Patriots really elevate their YPA because of their team YAC yards. The Hawks, on the other hand do not have a ton of YAC yardage. Even after this most recent offensive explosion we have the number 17 (ADB), 68 (Jimmy), and 76 (Tyler) ranked YAC players in the NFL. NE, on the other hand has 3 players in the top 22 in the NFL in YAC yards. Also, as far as team YAC goes we are currently ranked 20th. When that is adjusted per reception I would think we would move up, but still not in the top 10. When that is compared to our 3rd ranking YPA it is pretty clear that we are throwing the ball down the field more than most teams.

Nice work, mykc, except that I'd add the disclaimer that I'd say that we were throwing the ball downfield more than most teams. As you eluded to earlier, the past few games has seen a lot more shorter passes with a ton of YAC.

[c_hawkbob]

And do you see a difference between "failed miserably" and "woefully inadequete"? I don't, and said so. Sorry if I don't remember the exact wording of every single statement I've made. Geez.

Not a problem until you accuse me of misquoting you.

[Hawktawk]

6 weeks ago there were several people on this forum PREDICTING this would be the lowest scoring offense in Seahawks history.People were questioning whether Wilson was regressing like the rest of the class of 2011-2012.
Now guess what? Hawks are one of only 2 teams in the league who have a top 5 offense and defense. The other is AZ and over the past 5 weeks Seattle is the #1 scoring offense in the league.
The Bevell argument is getting more ridiculous by the day, that from a guy who bumped this thread 5 weeks ago. I was wrong................

[NorthHawk]

6 weeks ago there were several people on this forum PREDICTING this would be the lowest scoring offense in Seahawks history.People were questioning whether Wilson was regressing like the rest of the class of 2011-2012.
Now guess what? Hawks are one of only 2 teams in the league who have a top 5 offense and defense. The other is AZ and over the past 5 weeks Seattle is the #1 scoring offense in the league.
The Bevell argument is getting more ridiculous by the day, that from a guy who bumped this thread 5 weeks ago. I was wrong................

6 weeks ago this team was underachieving and it was a serious consideration.
It still is in some minds because of the history of predictable calls and the bad call in the Super Bowl.
I can say that if opposing Defenses figure out a counter to our passing Offense and it becomes impotent from a lack of a run game, the same comments will return and the debate will continue.

[RiverDog]

6 weeks ago there were several people on this forum PREDICTING this would be the lowest scoring offense in Seahawks history.People were questioning whether Wilson was regressing like the rest of the class of 2011-2012.
Now guess what? Hawks are one of only 2 teams in the league who have a top 5 offense and defense. The other is AZ and over the past 5 weeks Seattle is the #1 scoring offense in the league.
The Bevell argument is getting more ridiculous by the day, that from a guy who bumped this thread 5 weeks ago. I was wrong................

And it very well might have been had they continued on their tact of the first part of the season. But they made a couple of significant changes, specifically a change at center and a change in offensive philosophy that had Russell getting the ball out of his hands more quickly. I am also of the opinion that losing Jimmy Graham might have been a good thing in that it forced us to quit trying to force the ball to him and spread the targets around more and we started seeing more of ADB and No E. Not that I have anything against Graham or the effort he was making, but we certainly haven't missed a beat since he went down.

And my opinion of Russell not moving forward in his development hasn't changed, not for the first half of the season. The fact that he's playing lights out now doesn't change how he played earlier or automatically make anyone wrong about where he was at as of Sept.-Oct. I never felt it was a regression ala Luck or Kaepernick, but he clearly wasn't adjusting to the changing circumstances he was presented with. Whether that was his fault or the coaching staff I couldn't say.

With one exception, I don't think anyone in this forum needs to admit to being wrong about Russell or our offense.

Bevell could be gone after this season, anyway. It's rumored that he's a candidate for the BYU job and is back in the HC discussion in NFL circles.

[NorthHawk]

Earlier this year Pete denied Bevell a chance to interview for a college HC job. It was his Alma Mater, and I don't know if that was BYU, but it seemed a little out of character for Pete to do that. Maybe it was because of the timing of the request, but it seemed strange to me when I heard it.

[Hawk Sista]

It was a timing thing. Pete has never denied anyone a shot and wouldn't have here had the ask been in February. It shows me that Pete believes in Bev.

[RiverDog]

Earlier this year Pete denied Bevell a chance to interview for a college HC job. It was his Alma Mater, and I don't know if that was BYU, but it seemed a little out of character for Pete to do that. Maybe it was because of the timing of the request, but it seemed strange to me when I heard it.

I know that NFL coaches are prohibited from talking to other NFL teams while they are under contract unless the team gives its permission, but I'm pretty sure that they have no control over coaches that want to talk to the colleges or any other potential employer. Otherwise, Bobby Petino would not have been able to bolt so suddenly and unexpectedly as he did.

Is there some sort of clause in Bevell's contract that prohibits talking to non NFL employers? I'm not a lawyer, but I would be surprised if a contract like that was legal.

[Hawktawk]

It aint how you start, its how you finish. Right now its looking like a strong finish but we will see. Right now its the best Seahawks offense in history. If Bevell is getting blame for the bad plays he has to get some for the good ones doesnt he?

And lets be real about "the call". There was plenty of blame to go around. PC signed off on it, none of the 3 Seattle players executed it properly, the Pats defense played it perfectly, and still it was a foot away from being pass interference at a minimum if not a Seahawks TD. Bevells players have bailed him out many times, especially Russ. But the soft high throw out in front of Lockette was the final dagger of doom gift wrapping the game for Butlers heroics.To the degree Russ had some trouble pulling the trigger in tight windows earlier this year I will always believe that play was inside his head.

Horrible call? Yeah, especially in hindsight but IF PROPERLY EXECUTED it would have worked.As PC said it was the worst result of a call ever.
That was a team loss and you would have to fire everyone to be fair.

[NorthHawk]

And lets be real about "the call". There was plenty of blame to go around. PC signed off on it, none of the 3 Seattle players executed it properly, the Pats defense played it perfectly, and still it was a foot away from being pass interference at a minimum if not a Seahawks TD.

I think Pete signed off on it to be a pass play. I'm not so sure he signed off on the specific play call as there wasn't much time to discuss it.
It would have had a better chance to succeed had the receiver been someone used to going over the middle and in traffic like Baldwin, rather than put it on the shoulders of a WR who is a speed guy who rarely goes over the middle and on short yardage. I can't remember them ever running that play with Lockette as the receiver. It was a call that was too cheeky and it backfired big time.

[RiverDog]

I think Pete signed off on it to be a pass play. I'm not so sure he signed off on the specific play call as there wasn't much time to discuss it.
It would have had a better chance to succeed had the receiver been someone used to going over the middle and in traffic like Baldwin, rather than put it on the shoulders of a WR who is a speed guy who rarely goes over the middle and on short yardage. I can't remember them ever running that play with Lockette as the receiver. It was a call that was too cheeky and it backfired big time.

I'm not even sure I'd say that he signed off on it being a pass play, more like he was advised about it after the decision had been made. Had he objected, his only alternative would have been to call a timeout to talk about it as everything was already set in motion, not a very good option at that time as we were trying to conserve our one remaining timeout.

We've hashed over the subject of that fateful play a thousand times. I don't think we need to make it 1001 times.

[Hawktawk]

I'm not even sure I'd say that he signed off on it being a pass play, more like he was advised about it after the decision had been made. Had he objected, his only alternative would have been to call a timeout to talk about it as everything was already set in motion, not a very good option at that time as we were trying to conserve our one remaining timeout.

We've hashed over the subject of that fateful play a thousand times. I don't think we need to make it 1001 times.


Sorry to make it 1002 times RD. I dont know how many of you guys have re watched that game or that play other than a zillion times with the clip of the pick.I can watch that game with pride personally.

I had previously made a commitment to a local talk radio show so I had probably watched that play 50 times before going on the air the Monday after the game. Its the last place I wanted to be and the last thing I wanted to see 50 times.
But Ive studied that game intently without beer goggles. The Hawks mangled the clock management that entire last drive.They had 3 timeouts to start the drive plus the 2 minute warning.

The bad decisions didn't start at the one.

[RiverDog]

I'm not even sure I'd say that he signed off on it being a pass play, more like he was advised about it after the decision had been made. Had he objected, his only alternative would have been to call a timeout to talk about it as everything was already set in motion, not a very good option at that time as we were trying to conserve our one remaining timeout.

We've hashed over the subject of that fateful play a thousand times. I don't think we need to make it 1001 times.


Sorry to make it 1002 times RD. I dont know how many of you guys have re watched that game or that play other than a zillion times with the clip of the pick.I can watch that game with pride personally.

I had previously made a commitment to a local talk radio show so I had probably watched that play 50 times before going on the air the Monday after the game. Its the last place I wanted to be and the last thing I wanted to see 50 times.
But Ive studied that game intently without beer goggles. The Hawks mangled the clock management that entire last drive.They had 3 timeouts to start the drive plus the 2 minute warning.

The bad decisions didn't start at the one.

I didn't say it was anything about previous plays. My comment was strictly about the last play and who's decision it was.

[NorthHawk]

Like it or not, that play will haunt us as a big part of the one that got away. It's part of our history now and will probably be brought up as long as there are Seahawks fans.

Pete has a bit of a history with questionable clock management as we discussed it at length a few years ago in the PI forum and maybe some here, too.

[obiken]

Dudes! We have beat this thread to death lets move on to the rest of this year. Pretty Please!!

[RiverDog]

Like it or not, that play will haunt us as a big part of the one that got away. It's part of our history now and will probably be brought up as long as there are Seahawks fans.

Pete has a bit of a history with questionable clock management as we discussed it at length a few years ago in the PI forum and maybe some here, too.

You're exactly right. How many years after XL did we kick that dead horse?

And we're not alone. Mets fans still talk about Bill Buckner's error and Bills fans still talk about Scott Norwood's missed FG, and those happened 20 or so years ago. You might as well get used to it, obi!

[obiken]

All righty then!!

[burrrton]

You're exactly right. How many years after XL did we kick that dead horse?

I'll still kick it if anyone is stupid enough to argue with me about it...

[Hawktawk]

Me too I went back and did some research on the game for some topics on here about Walter Jones. I ran into a lot of the revisionist history in support of the officiating that has been written over the years by the loyal stooges to appease their NFL master. Mike Pierra went so far as to criticize Bill Leavy years later for saying he had "booted a couple of calls and they influenced the outcome of the game." That's why I have so little respect for Pierra and Mike Carey when they sit and comment on replays etc.
It still irritates the hell out of me ten years later. If Seattle wins 10 Lombardi's Ill still be angry about the one that was stolen.