Are the Patriots Really Cheaters?

[RiverDog]

It seems like the league swept the Jets locker room last weekend at Gillette Stadium and it is rumored that it was done at the request of the Jets.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... days-game/

Then there was the headset scandal from back in September.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/09/11/s ... /21234634/

And then there were reports that the Pats had tried to sneak into opposing locker room to steal play sheets

http://larrybrownsports.com/football/pa ... ets/272917

And that's on top of the Spygate and Deflate Gate scandals. Can all of this be manufactured? Are there people out there piling on, making up stuff? Could other teams be planting bugs in their own locker rooms so they would be caught and blamed on the Pats? Are teams/fans simply jealous of what the Pats have been able to achieve?

I'm not into conspiracy theories, but there's one whole helluva lot of smoke out there, and where there's smoke, there's usually a fire. In any event, the Pats have a major image problem to contend with.

[Distant Relative]

Are the Patriots Really Cheaters?

No doubt in my mind. Can't wait for the book to come out.

[Futureite]

Of course they are cheaters. They are the best cheaters. The same way good politicians are the best liars.

[EmeraldBullet]

Usually the simplest answer is the correct one. Also, from a science perspective (repeatedly observable in nature) and empirical perspective (history repeating itself) it makes sense they are still cheating. Plus from the PATs perspective it's worth it, even when they get caught. How many draft picks would you forfeit and fines would you pay to win a super bowl? In any other industry than entertainment, the patriots wouldn't exist anymore.

[Hawktown]

Of course they are cheaters. They are the best cheaters. The same way good politicians are the best liars.

Best liars, or just not held accountable??? I say not held accountable.

[Hawktawk]

Yes they cheat. Kraft probably buys people off too. We know Judge uncle Berman was partying with Kraft in the Hampton's THE FOLLOWING WEEKEND after vacating Brady's suspension. The thing is... there is so much GD money and prestige etc involved they will do whatever and take their chances...6 appearances and 4 rings looks like its worked out pretty well.
I wonder about the last play of the SB. The Pats knew the play. Butler knew exactly where to go and made no attempt to play the formation straight up. Hell who knows? With the Pats you never will know and it will always put a tarnish on their otherwise stupendously amazing accomplishments.


BTW Proud of you for waking up and smelling the coffee RD. Nice topic.

[RiverDog]

Yes they cheat. Kraft probably buys people off too. We know Judge uncle Berman was partying with Kraft in the Hampton's THE FOLLOWING WEEKEND after vacating Brady's suspension. The thing is... there is so much GD money and prestige etc involved they will do whatever and take their chances...6 appearances and 4 rings looks like its worked out pretty well.
I wonder about the last play of the SB. The Pats knew the play. Butler knew exactly where to go and made no attempt to play the formation straight up. Hell who knows? With the Pats you never will know and it will always put a tarnish on their otherwise stupendously amazing accomplishments.


BTW Proud of you for waking up and smelling the coffee RD. Nice topic.

I haven't bought in on the conspiracy theory just yet, Hawktawk. But I do smell a fish.

[FolkCrusader]

Belicheat is able to lead his team using both objective and subjective information. Firstly he is a great coach that coaches the objective part of the game at it's highest level and he employs coaches and coordinators that support his style of play. But he also employs specialists that consider subjective information.

I think of these things like a high level poker player looks at tells. They still have to maintain awareness of the actual card game, but the best ones are aware of so much more. Changes in play style, behavior, physical manifestations, anything to give them additional information.

Belicheat also operates at the highest level gathering subjective information. Ernie Adams runs this side of the organization. He uses extensive film and technical study focusing on tendencies on and off the field. I have no doubt they will at times run very close to the edge of the rules, but I think for the most part they are trying to stay within them. As an example if you look closely at the "walk through filming" example. They always tried to maintain that they were not breaking the rules. But they worked surreptitiously to be places at times they were not supposed to be. They his the purpose of the employees doing the filming. They were clearly breaking the spirit of the rules and knew it, but again they were trying to do it in such a way that they could claim no rules were broken. It really wasn't until an employee provided copies of tapes that had been recorded that they were caught.

All that being said, I think that is really Belicheats M.O. Be creative in gathering information without actually breaking any published rules. But he has no problem whatsoever going outside of the spirit of those rules and that is what pisses other teams off.

The ball deflating was all Brady in my opinion. Belicheat would never have approved an overt rule breaking like that.

All just my opinion based on a lot of reading about the team.

[mykc14]

I really like the thread. I don't really have a doubt that they are cheaters. I remember reading an article (it might be that one that ESPN did about SpyGate) discussing how multiple teams advised the Seahawks before the SB to not disclose their practice location to the public and to do it in an area that would be hard for it to be filmed or something like that. They certainly have a reputation as cheaters and it is much deserved.

[obiken]

The real story is what I call Spygate2; the Pats were caught red handed and it was BAD. However, Roger Goody destroyed over 40 tapes and a boatload of notes that the Pats had confiscated by the NFL. That's why Roger went all in trying to get 100,000 dollar punishment for a 50 buck crime. Its a standoff. This story is too big, IF Goody admits to doing it, he is toast and it would "hurt the shield." They will sweep, they have to.

[RiverDog]

I really like the thread. I don't really have a doubt that they are cheaters. I remember reading an article (it might be that one that ESPN did about SpyGate) discussing how multiple teams advised the Seahawks before the SB to not disclose their practice location to the public and to do it in an area that would be hard for it to be filmed or something like that. They certainly have a reputation as cheaters and it is much deserved.

I don't think they're guilty of everything they're accused of doing, but by the same token, not every charge can be completely baseless, either. Plus they've earned this reputation through nobody else's doing but their own, with their Spygate scandal and with the way they, or rather their quarterback, handled the Deflate Gate scandal. Whether they're guilty or not, they've created this huge cloud of suspicion around them, and the only way they'll rid themselves of it is if they have 2 or 3 seasons where they go sub .500 and miss the playoffs. Otherwise, it's going to hang with them wherever they go.

[obiken]

My view of Deflategate River is that IF it wasnt the Superbowl he would have cowboy upped and said sorry, I did it, it wont happen again.

[kalibane]

The two reports about Spygate from SI and Outside the Lines pretty much say it all, really damning stuff. You can argue back and forth about how much of an advantage the stuff they do actually gives them but it's pretty clear that what they do in that organization goes beyond gamesmanship. Of course certain people will call it jealousy or bitterness having lost to them in the Super Bowl but one thing doesn't have anything to do with the other. The Seahawks could have beaten the Pats like they beat the Broncos and I'd be saying the same thing.

[RiverDog]

IMO the Cheatriots story is taking on a life of its own, is at a critical mass where it just perpetuates itself. Once there's been a couple of legitimate claims established, such as Spygate and certain elements of Deflate Gate, then anyone else that might have seen something a little strange or out of place that they can't easily explain starts trying to put two and two together, making it more and more difficult to find the truth. Even if something they were completely innocent of happens, such as the visiting teams headphones failing, because of their past history of skirting the rules, they fall under suspicion and people begin to speculate.

Like I said earlier, they brought this on themselves, particularly Brady with his behavior during the Deflate Gate investigation. Everyone starts wondering what was it he didn't want them to see on his phone. Was there other information on there, like bugging the visiting team's locker room or sneaking in to steal their opponents notes and charts? I don't want to divert the topic by offering up examples, but we've all seen scores of investigations where unexplained or unusual incidents suddenly become damming facts that in many people's minds 'proves' a conspiracy.

[kalibane]

Well even with the headset stuff. Players have said that that kind of thing is just a known issue when you go into Foxboro. Stuff like that is going to happen and has been that way for years. Before it happened to Pittsburgh they talked about the headset thing in the Outside the Lines piece.

Someone was recounting a story where they were sitting next to a former player in the booth and he told them basically "watch what happens with the headset on big plays"... and sure enough the first big 3rd down play the visitor's headsets went out.

It goes beyond the opener this year coming on the heels of Spygate. The fact that you're a billion dollar company and headset interference has been a known issue for over a decade but you haven't been able to fix the issue says a lot.

[RiverDog]

Well even with the headset stuff. Players have said that that kind of thing is just a known issue when you go into Foxboro. Stuff like that is going to happen and has been that way for years. Before it happened to Pittsburgh they talked about the headset thing in the Outside the Lines piece.

Someone was recounting a story where they were sitting next to a former player in the booth and he told them basically "watch what happens with the headset on big plays"... and sure enough the first big 3rd down play the visitor's headsets went out.

It goes beyond the opener this year coming on the heels of Spygate. The fact that you're a billion dollar company and headset interference has been a known issue for over a decade but you haven't been able to fix the issue says a lot.

Yea, I heard that story told, too. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. But whether or not it's true isn't the point. The point is that people believe it's true, so it perpetuates the story, provides an opening for other eyebrow raisers. Critical mass.