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by **Hawktawk** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:21 pm

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news/46 ... entary-hgh
What a bizarre story. I just watched this thing pretty much in its entirety. Sad to say it has a serious ring of truth to it and Manning isn't the only high profile guy implicated.

by **RiverDog** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:29 pm

by **RiverDog** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:34 pm

Hawktawk wrote:http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news/4689230-peyton-manning-al-jazeera-the-dark-side-video-documentary-hgh
What a bizarre story. I just watched this thing pretty much in its entirety. Sad to say it has a serious ring of truth to it and Manning isn't the only high profile guy implicated.

Bizarre is right, and what makes it bizarre is that it's NOT TRUE.

Peyton Manning found himself embroiled in scandal when an Al Jazeera documentary linked the Denver Broncos quarterback to shipments of human growth hormone (HGH).

Manning vehemently denied that he has ever used HGH and the source for that story, a former intern at an anti-aging clinic in Indianapolis, has since recanted the statements he made in a secretly recorded conversation with an undercover reporter.

That intern, Charles Sly, also spoke with Chris Mortensen of ESPN to explain why he made the entire story up.

First of all, Sly reiterated to Mortensen that he manufactured the entire story and confirmed that he was only employed at the clinic in 2013, two years after Manning was a patient.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/former-in ... 30062.html

You are allowing your bias against Manning to influence your objectivity on stories like this one. Best you wait until you get all the facts before jumping to conclusions.

It would seem to me that if this second story is true, that Manning would have a solid case for slander against this guy. Peyton Manning is perhaps the most marketable personality in the NFL and a story like this could clearly cost him millions.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:51 pm

Oh I'm not jumping to any conclusions but watching the video its clear that the recent statements made by this Sly dude who implicated Manning are easy to interpret as an attempt to cover his rear end and keep him out of jail.
Trafficking in HGH is highly illegal.The same for the clinic named in Indy which Manning does not deny he attended. And the story Sly tells the media now about lying about everything to trip this secret investigator up dont wash. He was on video real time matter of factually discussing numerous NFL players etc, all different types of drugs, the effects, stories of how they have made millions for guys juicing them before the combines, Dustin Keller in particular.These investigators actually received PEDs from some of these people they were investigating and show them on the film.One astounding assertion by Sly is that he spent 6 weeks in Green Bay last year and was working with a large number of players including Mathews and Peppers. I think there's definitively something there. I think you dont go at Peyton Manning or the NFL unless you have the goods or you are insane or both.

I'm certainly no Al Jazeera fan but the informed fan should see this and decide for themselves, not buy the NFL,Broncos,Colts,American sports media slant without at least seeing what they are all denying.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:03 pm

[quote="RiverDog"]

Manning vehemently denied that he has ever used HGH and the source for that story, a former intern at an anti-aging clinic in Indianapolis, has since recanted the statements he made in a secretly recorded conversation with an undercover reporter.

It would seem to me that if this second story is true, that Manning would have a solid case for slander against this guy. Peyton Manning is perhaps the most marketable personality in the NFL and a story like this could clearly cost him millions.[/quote

What do you expect Manning to say? I agree we all know who Manning is and what he represents. Thats what makes it shocking. As for a lawsuit if he files it he and his wife's medical records and such would be open to investigation so he better be absolutely clean or he wont do it.. I know he hired Ari Fleischer a former White house PR guy after this broke.Why a PR guy???
The league is over a major barrel as they will be forced to look at this with so many current starts implicated.

Don't think this is just going to fade away.

by **c_hawkbob** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:09 pm

I don't think Manning's denial or Sly's retraction is conclusive. I'm not ready to label Manning, but I do think the league should be (and can just about guarantee that they are) investigating. There were plenty of strongly worded denials from Lance Armstrong too.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:34 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't think Manning's denial or Sly's retraction is conclusive. I'm not ready to label Manning, but I do think the league should be (and can just about guarantee that they are) investigating. There were plenty of strongly worded denials from Lance Armstrong too.

Yes there were Bob. Lawsuits too, peoples lives were destroyed to protect that lie for a decade or more.

I'm not ready to label Manning a cheater either, nor would I blame him if he did.................If he did he should be honest now and not play games with it.

Its probably another topic for another time but the whole premise of this investigation which covers track, football, and baseball athletes is that its almost impossible to catch cheats with testing methods and CBAs in the various leagues right now. Most everyone is cheating and the leagues and owners actually pay lip service to testing because they like the on field performances of bigger stronger faster athletes.I think pro sports needs to have an adult conversation about athletes such as NFL players who basically suffer an automobile collision or 2 every weekend being able to recover under the care of a physician using whatever works the best.......It would be a lot safer than whats going on now.

by **Zorn76** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:04 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't think Manning's denial or Sly's retraction is conclusive. I'm not ready to label Manning, but I do think the league should be (and can just about guarantee that they are) investigating. There were plenty of strongly worded denials from Lance Armstrong too.

lol, boy, ain't that the truth.
Good point.

by **RiverDog** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:39 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't think Manning's denial or Sly's retraction is conclusive. I'm not ready to label Manning, but I do think the league should be (and can just about guarantee that they are) investigating. There were plenty of strongly worded denials from Lance Armstrong too.

You can add the name of Alex Rodriguez to the list of strong denials made by high profile athletes. And I can remember Rafael Palmerio wagging his finger at Congressmen in his best Bill Clinton imitation as if anyone had the gall to accuse him of using PED's, so your point is valid.

But I'm not simply using Manning's strong denial as a reason to declare that he's innocent. What's different about this case from the aforementioned is that we already have the prime accuser admitting to not only lying, but making up the entire story. I'm suggesting that at the very least that we give Manning the benefit of the doubt.

Hopefully the league not only looks into these accusations and does a thorough investigation, but also acts on Manning's behalf if they are determined to be completely unfounded, which is what the ESPN report seems to suggest. They'd sure hang him if he were guilty.

by **c_hawkbob** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:29 pm

RiverDog wrote: What's different about this case from the aforementioned is that we already have the prime accuser admitting to not only lying, but making up the entire story.

I don't know everything there is to know about it but you may be overstating the denial. My understanding is that there is a recording of him discussing the matter that that was supposed to be kept off the record and the denial over everything started when he found out he was being recorded.

Such a denial could have other motivations than the truth or untruth of the subject matter.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:01 pm

RiverDog wrote: What's different about this case from the aforementioned is that we already have the prime accuser admitting to not only lying, but making up the entire story.

I don't know everything there is to know about it but you may be overstating the denial. My understanding is that there is a recording of him discussing the matter that that was supposed to be kept off the record and the denial over everything started when he found out he was being recorded.

Such a denial could have other motivations than the truth or untruth of the subject matter.[/quote]

I'm no big Al Jazeera fan but watch it before you decide.

RD this was no interview. This was a covert hidden camera and microphone running over a period of days and weeks with them driving around and in various clinics and other locations.At one point he is texting and driving and announces Clay Mathews has just texted and asked for narcotics.He describes different cocktails and how they work, how he changed a Packers player from a 400,000 a year player to 2 million.He describes having worked with Dustin Keller since high school, while in college and to prepare for the scouting combine where his unreal workout led to a high draft pick and big dollar contract.He says Julius Peppers doesn't use as much as the other guys because hes a big guy to begin with. Mathews has gone off HGH because of the possibility of a test since he is high profile.He describes getting Packers players hooked up with steroidal like drugs because other doctors can prescribe them and keep him out of it.

It sounds too detailed to be a fabrication.Maybe he made it all up but its hard to believe he would make up something that complicated. I doubt Peyton or any other NFL player will face discipline but I dont think this is all made up either. Truth may be in the middle like lots of things.

by **RiverDog** » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:26 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:I don't know everything there is to know about it but you may be overstating the denial. My understanding is that there is a recording of him discussing the matter that that was supposed to be kept off the record and the denial over everything started when he found out he was being recorded.

Such a denial could have other motivations than the truth or untruth of the subject matter.

I don't know everything, either. But there's more to my contention about giving Manning the benefit of the doubt than simply this guy Sly's denial. Sly only worked at the clinic in in question in 2013, two years after Manning was a client of theirs. Unless he had access to some sort of records, I don't know how he'd have any first hand knowledge if he wasn't even employed there during the period of time that this supposedly happened.

Edit: I just saw a lead report on the regular NBC News. Manning is beyond furious, A-J is standing by their story despite their primary (perhaps only) source giving them up, and the league is promising an investigation.

If A-J isn't issuing a retraction after losing their primary source and under the threat of what would certainly be a multi million dollar libel lawsuit, you have to wonder if they have something else up their sleeve to support their story.

by **obiken** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:41 am

I don't believe Manning did PED's, the investigation might show up others in the NFL that will be found guilty.

by **FolkCrusader** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:17 am

I have no idea what is true or false. The reality is this claim would require his wife Ashley to provide evidence one way or another to confirm whether this claim is true or not. That gets in to a ton of legal what ifs and likely we will never really know.

I would point out that people fairly close to the situation speculated at least 50% of the players in the NFL were using or had used drugs containing HGH. Now that we are testing for it people somehow don't remember just how many people that is. If that claim was true it means many players, some epic players like Peyton, used the drug.

I can confirm my feelings on this. If I were recovering from neck surgery, and my dr suggested that taking such a drug could improve my recovery, and I had the money, I would not hesitate to take it.

by **Hawktawk** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:39 am

FolkCrusader wrote:I have no idea what is true or false. The reality is this claim would require his wife Ashley to provide evidence one way or another to confirm whether this claim is true or not. That gets in to a ton of legal what ifs and likely we will never really know.

I would point out that people fairly close to the situation speculated at least 50% of the players in the NFL were using or had used drugs containing HGH. Now that we are testing for it people somehow don't remember just how many people that is. If that claim was true it means many players, some epic players like Peyton, used the drug.

I can confirm my feelings on this. If I were recovering from neck surgery, and my dr suggested that taking such a drug could improve my recovery, and I had the money, I would not hesitate to take it.

Yeah that^^^^. You swerved into what I was alluding to earlier. If a man whose body is worth 18-20 million a year to him is broken he would and SHOULD take anything he has to to get it right to make his living. I agree. Thats going to cover a lot more people than Peyton.

But dont lie then Peyton. Be a force for change, not another pathetic liar.Own up to the sensible thing you did while your admission can help others get the help they need and before it diminishes the greatness you achieved.

by **Hawktawk** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:31 am

Old but Slow wrote:Another element to this question involves what chemicals are acceptable and what are not? If a player is dinged in a game, or before a game, should the team be able to inject a pain killer to make the player more able to play? What chemicals can the team use to make a player more able to contribute for an upcoming game? An aspirin might be seen as a reasonable thing for a player with a headache, but where do you draw the line?

I couldn't agree more OBS but the the train left the station years ago.The Steelers of the late 70's early eighties have been described as the "poster boys" for steroid use in the NFL. The point of this article isn't so much about Peyton Manning as it is about doping in general and how difficult it is to stop and detect. As Ive said before its more of an indictment of the leagues and owners than anything else or any particular player.The names dropped including Mannings were done so without prompting by the dealer and really were used by the editor to illustrate how easy it is to get PEDs without scrutiny.

I understand the performance enhancing properties of certain medicines but Its curious why I as a blue collar supervisor can get treatment for an injury that a professional athlete cannot legally obtain. Particularly in the case of Manning with a career ending and quality of life changing injury to a league icon and first ballot HOF (no matter what happens here) guy. No stone would be left unturned to develop better treatment strategies under the supervision of league approved physicians if I were Roger Goodell. The NFL needs to take control of and regulate whats already happening. They wont of course. There will be this cat and mouse game they hope to lose and this seedy profession of peddling ped's will continue.

by **Hawktawk** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:50 am

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/al- ... cid=AARDHP
This is the reporters response to Charlie Sly's denials and claims he made it all up. The investigation also catches Dale Guyer who owns the Indianapolis clinic Manning was treated at in a bald faced lie about the time Sly was there. Watch and judge for yourself.

by **RiverDog** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:59 am

Old but Slow wrote:This kind of thing has been a part of our whole society for some time now. Problem getting it up? Here's some Viagra. We have become a chemical society, looking for false improvements whenever we can, with plastic surgery, penile enlargements (sh), hair implants, breast enhancements, and much more. So where does it lead, and what do we say is acceptable?

In sports, it becomes more complicated, as enhancements can lead to better money. We all understand money, don't we?

In a sense, we are all involved, because we value excellence, we value endurance, we make these assets important to us and we pay money for them.

It is hard to blame the athlete who tries to satisfy the public by taking every opportunity to reach their expectations. But, to cheat? Why not when we have cheaters in business, in government, and in every level of society?

What is the saying? Something about glass houses?

When abused, yes, you're exactly right.

But I've had 3 steroid shots in the past 6 months, and they work wonders. I had surgery in my left shoulder last October to repair a torn rotator cuff. 8 weeks after the surgery, it was still very stiff and sore. During my visit with my surgeon, he gave me a steroid shot and the stiffness went away and hasn't returned. It advanced my recovery.

I recently discovered that I have severe arthritis in my left knee. The only viable solution for a permanent fix is to have the knee replaced, which would be a very excruciating procedure requiring a recovery time of about 6 months, lots of physical therapy. One of the few alternatives available to me is to get a steroid shot in the knee when the pain gets to the point where I can no longer tolerate it. I've had two since my diagnosis. They will only give me one shot every 3-4 months in the same joint.

I don't take drugs unless I absolutely need them. When I had my shoulder surgery, they gave me some oxycodone, which is supposed to be fairly addictive. I took three of the pills not due to the pain, but because they told me to start taking them before I started hurting. When there didn't seem to be any pain, I quit taking them and never did have any pain I couldn't tolerate. The surgeon said he had never had a patient that didn't take the meds.

Bottom line is that we probably take way too many drugs, more than what's needed to do the trick. IMO some of this is due to the doctor feeling the urge to "do something" so he prescribes meds, and who doesn't trust their doctor?

As far as how it is used in sports, I can sure see how it helps a baseball pitcher get over the "sore arm" that lasts a day or two after throwing 100+ pitches by taking a steroid injection. Baseball treasures it's individual records, so if Roger Clemmons was able to take steroid shots where Bob Gibson or Walter Johnson wasn't, it would taint their traditional records and I agree with them being banned. But using in in football and other sports as part of a closely supervised medical plan in a recovery from an injury such as Manning's neck injury, I don't see a problem with them. It's the illegal aspect, players skirting the rules gaining an advantage over those that are doing everything by Hoyle that makes this situation with Manning concerning.

by **obiken** » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:47 pm

No doubt its a game of catch me if you can, but its a little stupid to have a giant investigation on Steroids in the NFL, based on one documentary.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:05 am

obiken wrote:No doubt its a game of catch me if you can, but its a little stupid to have a giant investigation on Steroids in the NFL, based on one documentary.

If HGH was indeed shipped to Ashley Manning and she does not have one of the 3 medical conditions specified on the label then it becomes a law enforcement problem as much as an NFL problem. HGH is very rare in that it CAN NOT be prescribed off label.But the fact is that she WAS receiving prescription meds from the clinic. Nobody is denying that. Mannings indignation over his wife's "private medical history" just comes off wrong to me.Is he protecting her or hiding behind her? I guess the only question left is what was in the packages then we will know ,if it can ever be proven.Lance Armstrong had his wife involved in his doping. It sucks but the reality is ugly when it comes to PEDs and athletes seeking an advantage.

This whole deal is going to wind up being deflate gate 2, a political campaign. The lap dog sports media including the talking heads on TV game day are rallying around the icon and trying to bash and discredit the report. Ari Fleischer told a flat out lie today about the female reporter "recanting" the story. Hes a former presidential aide and spokesman lying for Peyton Manning. Why does Manning need him to speak or lie on his behalf if this is all a bunch of made up bull? And cripes half the Packers roster was allegedly involved. Maybe they have lost their Mojo because they lost their juice? Sly alleged that some of these guys were taking stuff daily. Al Jazeera gave everyone involved in this story a month heads up as well before going to press so it isn't like anyone from Guyer, Sly, or any of the athletes got blindsided by the report being released. That would include Manning who acted on air like its the first he ever heard of this "disgusting" report.Any denials issued prior to the release of the report are included verbatim in the report as well.

I'm quite certain the NFL wants no part of this sordid mess but they are under pressure to be as thorough in investigating Mannings alleged cheating as Brady's so investigate they will.Manning may be retired before they ever figure it out.

by **obiken** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:14 am

Man I hope not HT I really liked him.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:50 am

Hawktawk wrote: I'm quite certain the NFL wants no part of this sordid mess but they are under pressure to be as thorough in investigating Mannings alleged cheating as Brady's so investigate they will.Manning may be retired before they ever figure it out.

Good observation.

The NFL needs to do a full and thorough investigation into this matter, and if Peyton knows what's good for him, he'll welcome such an investigation and cooperate with it fully. That's something Brady didn't do.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:04 am

obiken wrote:Man I hope not HT I really liked him.

I give Peyton his due. He is the best regular season QB of all time, eclipsing guys like Fouts and Marino. His Achilles heel was always the postseason with first round flame outs in many of his seasons and several with HFA throughout. I dont put him anywhere near guys like Brady or Montana because of his relative lack of hardware. But no question he has been a great HOF QB, sports icon and an ambassador for the league, one of the likable guys.
Thats why this is really a sickening story, nauseating, as Manning said, disgusting

I hope its false at least as it pertains to him but I'm beginning to believe its true the more I watch the various individuals in this story react, not just what is said but the demeanor. It isn't a complete fabrication, I'm certain of it after watching the report, some portions more than once. Im a golf course Supt and there is snow on the ground. What the hell else do I have to do?
Its a seedy disgusting report for sure

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:52 am

[quote="RiverDog"

Good observation.

The NFL needs to do a full and thorough investigation into this matter, and if Peyton knows what's good for him, he'll welcome such an investigation and cooperate with it fully. That's something Brady didn't do.[/quote]

You know me RD. I never saw a conspiracy theory I didn't like. Theres black helicopters circling all around this one.You reminded me to be objective when this broke and that I wasn't quite the Manning fan most are. Ive tried to heed that advice and be objective.All that said man I think he was involved with this and you are absolutely correct that he should cooperate with the investigation. It doesn't look promising at this point though the way he is lawyer and PRing up.Interviewing a wife can be withheld much the same as a cell phone with a claim of privacy.

Objectively I may be wrong. Maybe his wife really has a legitimate condition, maybe Sly was lying or misinformed about what was in the packages.Maybe Al Jazeera threw in Manning to get ratings for a struggling fledgling network. But I watched Charlie Sly dispense drugs to a MLB player on film so there were certainly some of these guys using as well.Its not all made up if any of it is.If he is involved in any way Manning should look at the Pro baseball players. Those who admitted their use and came clean were forgiven. Those who lied are branded as cheats. Mannings story with his neck would be so compelling everyone would understand.

by **Mo the Toe** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 9:51 am

I think that some women take hgh because of fertility problems and the Manning's had twins in 2011 so maybe his wife was taking it. I totally agree that if he actually did take this stuff and came clean right away, instead of going Lance Armstrong route, a normal person would understand. Looks like HT is finally getting some sleep. Take care and get better.

by **FolkCrusader** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:52 am

Mo the Toe wrote:I think that some women take hgh because of fertility problems and the Manning's had twins in 2011 so maybe his wife was taking it. I totally agree that if he actually did take this stuff and came clean right away, instead of going Lance Armstrong route, a normal person would understand. Looks like HT is finally getting some sleep. Take care and get better.

It can be used for women and men encountering fertility problems, as well as a plethora of other issues.

Just as an aside, due to ongoing health issues I had a liver biopsy this past year. Long story short my liver enzymes spiked and then went back down for no known reason. After the biopsy I met with an N-P who was an expert in the area. The biopsy essentially let them see any know toxin, virus, bacteria, whatever, that had ever come in contact with my body. It was fascinating. Any player that has had a similar sort of advanced testing would essentially have a written record of past drug use in their medical file. Although I certainly do not support the release of anyone's medical history without their approval, I think it is just a matter of time before such records start getting out.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:51 pm

It can be used for women and men encountering fertility problems, as well as a plethora of other issues.

Moe you are Incorrect on the fertility issue. It does have some effects on fertility but IT IS NOT LABELED FOR IT. It cant legally be prescribed off label.

OK here we go approved HGH uses.I found four
1 HGH insufficiency this is only for children who will not develop properly due to the insufficiency.
2 Turners Syndrome- For women with short stature, broad chest, small fingers, lack of a menstrual cycle, swelling of limbs.
3 Short Bowel syndrome-This is a condition caused by surgery on the bowel that causes problems with nutrition absorption among other things. It can occur at any age following surgery. This is not a genetic condition.
4 Praller Willis syndrome-For children born with birth defects

#3 looks like the only option that makes possible sense for Ashley.......Having read some material while researching this it looks like the FDA is dragging their feet in terms of approving more uses.
Its really quite a miracle drug and would clearly provide a great advantage to any athlete over one who wasn't on it.There have been developed what are called holistic treatments that use products containing HGH that are kind of in the no mans land as far as legality.There are plenty of those products floating around.I'm certain they are also banned by the NFL.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:11 pm

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2602 ... part-of-it
Another article discussing the HGH issue throughout the league. Its eye opening

by **savvyman** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:53 pm

Hawktawk wrote:http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2602986-players-say-the-nfl-has-an-hgh-problem-even-if-peyton-manning-isnt-part-of-it
Another article discussing the HGH issue throughout the league. Its eye opening

I believe - Heck at the gym I constantly see these old guys in their late 40's, 50's 60's with these slim muscular physiques like we had in our 20's. HGH (and testosterone) is the foundation for all of these older men enhancement clinics that are popping up everywhere. If old guys are willing to chemically enhance their physical capabilities then you can be darn sure that professional NFL athletes with so much more at stake will be willing to do this too.

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:00 pm

I believe - Heck at the gym I constantly see these old guys in their late 40's, 50's 60's with these slim muscular physiques like we had in our 20's. HGH (and testosterone) is the foundation for all of these older men enhancement clinics that are popping up everywhere. If old guys are willing to chemically enhance their physical capabilities then you can be darn sure that professional NFL athletes with so much more at stake will be willing to do this too.[/quote]

Yeah me too. I'm a beat up blue collar 56 year old guy with aches and pains and I cant hit the golf ball anymore.And honestly after doing quite a bit of research I wouldn't mind a little HGH myself. JK....Sort of

by **FolkCrusader** » Wed Dec 30, 2015 10:40 pm

I'm not going to school you on the intricacies of the non FDA-approved drug market, Hawktalk but I can tell you that from my perspective your view on HGH's possible usage is quite humorous. There are entire clinics built around HGH usage. The only real issue with HGH is the cost. If you are willing to foot the bill it is easy to come by.

by **Hawktawk** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:04 am

FolkCrusader wrote:I'm not going to school you on the intricacies of the non FDA-approved drug market, Hawktalk but I can tell you that from my perspective your view on HGH's possible usage is quite humorous. There are entire clinics built around HGH usage. The only real issue with HGH is the cost. If you are willing to foot the bill it is easy to come by.

Thats my point Folk. Are you telling me there are a plethora of FDA approved uses of HGH that would be legal? My understanding after studying the law is that approved LEGAL use only covers the conditions listed.It looks to me like scientific evidence makes a lot more uses beneficial.I know people on steroids, HGH personally. They are workout warriors not athletes. I have never done anything like that and I have no idea how they obtain it.

I'm well aware more so than ever after studying up that the stuff is all over the world and in the case of athletes almost always illegal and also virtually undetectable with current NFL testing methods.Anything thats on the black market is more expensive generally speaking. Clinics are issuing a lot of altered formulas to beat tests as well, steroidal in nature is how they are described. Its dancing around the edge.

To keep our eye on the ball Charlie sly said HGH was shipped to Ashley Manning on many occasions directly from Guyers office in Indianapolis.He is on record saying that it is very unusual for doctors to dispense out of their clinic and later that he was surprised Guyer hadn't been shut down yet.

Bottom line if what he said is true(he worked in the pharmacy at Guyers so he would know) and she doesn't have a condition legally prescribed for HGH its breaking the law and she is a go between to benefit her husband.

by **Hawktawk** » Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:53 am

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/more-sp ... ar-BBnZ7yf
Another viewpoint from a participant in the documentary..

by **Hawktawk** » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:56 pm

Not to stir the pot but WTH its the offseason.....

A couple of days after I attached the last link Al Jazeera confirmed (Jan 1) that it indeed had a second source for the allegations of HGH being shipped to Ashley Manning. The source was described as being "impeccably credible" and is being with held in case of lawsuits. There was not a blip on the domestic sports media scene. I know the NFL is investigating as are several other entities. My guess is the NFL isn't too interested in finding anything and I sort of hope they don't. Whatever else Manning is a first ballot HOF lock and I'm glad Denver won the Super bowl..

But my reason for bumping this thread is the new reports involving a class action lawsuit vs Tennessee athletics which mentions Manning having sexually assaulted a female trainer in college. I remembered hearing a blip on the news at the time but it wasn't a big deal with the sports media, kind of made up to be some kind of sophomoric prank. The actual allegations are disgusting if true and were not discussed in the 1996 media. I didn't link it for that reason. The woman was paid 300 grand to go away at the time and signed a mutual confidentiality agreement. It was partially reported on the MSN front page today. I don't know, maybe it was all a misunderstanding but it lends a bit of credence to those who say race plays a part in perception of high profile athletes accused of wrongdoing.

by **mykc14** » Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:09 pm

Hawktawk wrote:
It was partially reported on the MSN front page today. I don't know, maybe it was all a misunderstanding but it lends a bit of credence to those who say race plays a part in perception of high profile athletes accused of wrongdoing.

Not to say that race isn't involved at all but the alleged incedent occurred 20 years ago in the dark ages of the internet, a much easier time to hide the truth and make unfavorable publicity go away. She claimed he purposely put his genitals on her head while she was checking out an injury, he said he was mooning a teammate and she was exaggerating (his explanation seems far fetched, IMO). Ultimately she is paid off and nothing happens to the white Pro prospect QB at a major institution. IMO the cover up and lack of public reaction has little or nothing to do with race. You don't need to look any further than Florida State and Jamis Winston. He is accused of rape, his accuser is in the midst of settling with the school while he is putting together a rookie of the year type of season. Very little to any mention of this incident after it initially broke. Again, nothing happens to the pro prospect QB at a major university. Peyton is white, Winston is black but both situations were handled similarly. They don't show racism, they almost certainly show sexism, but not racism, IMO.

by **Hawktawk** » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:23 pm

I was talking about the media and the public. But you are right if you are the stud you can do what you want

by **mykc14** » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:58 pm

Hawktawk wrote:I was talking about the media and the public.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. Both Peyton and Jamis did (allegedly) clearly inappropriate things (although Winston's accusation was much worse), but not too much was made of either incident and within a year of either one you didn't see much media attention to either one. Both incidents have basically been swept under the rug.

by **obiken** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:19 am

Wrong the Cover up on this one IS the story!
This second Manning report is so bad on all levels. It blows the doping scandal out of the water. My heart sunk after I heard it. The Assault is bad, whether they can prove that is another matter. However the 2nd more serious charge is that the Tenn Administrators told this gal, who worked for the U of T for 10 years, to blame it on a Black guy and they gave her the names of 2 black players to blame it on!
Sorry she has evidence on this already, and SO many were involved in the cover up they will have to settle out of court or risk major heat. Moreover, there are those that were there that will crack IF they haven't already, or risk a perjury charge to cover up. If I got this wrong in any way I'm sorry but that is verbatim the way it was read to me on Fox sports radio Sat night.
This is going to be so big that they will have to settle. IMHO Link below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2530395

by **RiverDog** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 6:56 am

obiken wrote:Sorry she has evidence on this already, and SO many were involved in the cover up they will have to settle out of court or risk major heat. Moreover, there are those that were there that will crack IF they haven't already, or risk a perjury charge to cover up. If I got this wrong in any way I'm sorry but that is verbatim the way it was read to me on Fox sports radio Sat night.
This is going to be so big that they will have to settle. IMHO Link below.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2530395

The statute of limitations has long since run out on this incident so there will be no settling out of court. The only thing they can accomplish is to tarnish the reputation of a first ballot HOF'er.

by **Hawktawk** » Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:07 am

[quote="RiverDogThe statute of limitations has long since run out on this incident so there will be no settling out of court. The only thing they can accomplish is to tarnish the reputation of a first ballot HOF'er.[/quote]

Did you read the article? USA today has had this information since 2003 and did nothing with it even though it was eventually litigated on 3 occasions withdamning affidavits against Peyton and the university. Why? If this weren't football royalty would the outcome have been different?How can an all pro QB be in court 3 times with a woman claiming sexual assault and it never made ESPN, ABC, USA today, nothing ever until now after 1996.

Between this and the HGH rumors looking more and more likely to be true maybe Manning's reputation needs to be tarnished....

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