Question for Kalibane: Cincy and Marvin Jones

[RiverDog]

Hey, Kal....

I'm curious as to whether your attitude towards Marvin Jones has changed given this past season, especially after that embarrassment of a playoff game vs. the Steelers. You were a big defender of Jones the last time the issue was discussed, and I'm curious to know if your attitude towards him has changed.

What's the sentiment in the Queen City? When we visited last October for the Hawks meltdown, the Bengals fans were living on Cloud 9 and we kept telling them to do something in the playoffs before they started popping their buttons over regular season success. Are they hanging effigies of Jones and Mike Brown?

I hope your move to the DC area is going well. I thoroughly enjoyed meeting up with you in Cincy and hope we can meet again sometime.

[obiken]

It was one of the worst and biggest meltdowns I have ever seen River. It was an embarrassment to the team, city, and fans.

[RiverDog]

It was one of the worst and biggest meltdowns I have ever seen River. It was an embarrassment to the team, city, and fans.

Yea, I didn't see the game live and am just now watching the replay. They were at it from the get go. It seemed that the Bengals were more interested in fighting Steelers than they were winning the game. The coaches and the refs lost control of the game. IMO the Bengals deserved to lose that game and I don't feel a damn bit sorry for Marvin Jones as he's had discipline problems before. IMO he should have been canned years ago. Next to Belichek, he's the longest tenured coach in the league and he hasn't so much as won a playoff game for them.

[Hawktawk]

You mean Marvin Lewis right RD?
7 first round exits and no wins with a very solid roster should really be the end of him shouldn't it? Especially whiffing on a near certain win at home in cataclysmic fashion. He lost control of his players at an absolutely critical time in the game. Marty Schottenheimer got canned by San Diego for losing like that in the AFC Title game and he was a better coach by far than Lewis will ever be.

He is who he is, he's who we thought he was.

[obiken]

Yea, I didn't see the game live and am just now watching the replay. They were at it from the get go. It seemed that the Bengals were more interested in fighting Steelers than they were winning the game. The coaches and the refs lost control of the game. IMO the Bengals deserved to lose that game and I don't feel a damn bit sorry for Marvin Jones as he's had discipline problems before. IMO he should have been canned years ago. Next to Belichek, he's the longest tenured coach in the league and he hasn't so much as won a playoff game for them.

Yeah, Marty Shottenhiemer got fired for losing ONE!

[RiverDog]

You mean Marvin Lewis right RD?
7 first round exits and no wins with a very solid roster should really be the end of him shouldn't it? Especially whiffing on a near certain win at home in cataclysmic fashion. He lost control of his players at an absolutely critical time in the game. Marty Schottenheimer got canned by San Diego for losing like that in the AFC Title game and he was a better coach by far than Lewis will ever be.

He is who he is, he's who we thought he was.

Eee gads. Yes, I meant Marvin Lewis. Man, my brain must be vapor locked. Thanks for the correction.

I'm up to the 2 minute warning, and it's really apparent that both the refs and the coaches have lost complete control of the game. That Burfect character should have been flagged for a PF at least twice, probably kicked out of the game well before the last two minutes. Shame on the Cincy fans for cheering an injury and pelting players with trash. Cincy needs to get their act together. I wish there were a way they could positively identify fans that behave in that manner and prevent them from attending future NFL contests. One of the ugliest games I've seen in awhile.

[kalibane]

Do I really want to go through this right now? LOL

Let me say this. If you can determine that Marvin Lewis has lost control of the team then it's legitimate grounds to fire him. That being said even if it's the correct call to fire him now that doesn't mean you were correct if you thought he should be fired in the past. Additionally, I don't think you can look at that one hit on Antonio Brown and say that just based on Burfict's actions it proves he's lost control anymore than you could say Mike Shannahan didn't have control of the Broncos because of how Bill Romanowski behaved.

The reality of the situation was the Steelers were just as out of control as the Bengals and if the Steelers had lost we'd be talking about Mike Tomlin, Mike Munchak and Joey Porter instead of Marvin Lewis. The Bengals, the Steelers and the refs all share some blame for this.

It started with the Shazier hit on Bernard. It should have been a penalty for helmet to helmet hit. Then you had a coach on the sideline grabbing an opposing player by the hair. Of course you have the Burfict shenanigans and then you have everyone's favorite, Joey Porter, being allowed on the field to hang around next to the Bengal players after Antonio Brown had been moved from the field which should have been a flag.

The whole thing was completely botched and in that light, unless you have deeper knowledge of that locker room you can't really say that Marvin Lewis losing a playoff game without his starting QB who was in the MVP race prior to being injured, is grounds for firing him.

Again I have to remind you this franchise was more poorly run than the Browns franchise is currently being run until Marvin Lewis was hired. So to sum up if I was in the know and Marvin has lost control of the locker room then I'd probably fire him. If he hasn't then no, because the job he's done here is the most underrated coaching job of the past 20 years. Plus who are they going to hire who's better.

[Hawktawk]

The reality of the situation was the Steelers were just as out of control as the Bengals and if the Steelers had lost we'd be talking about Mike Tomlin, Mike Munchak and Joey Porter instead of Marvin Lewis. The Bengals, the Steelers and the refs all share some blame for this.

Without a doubt.It was a melee.The coach who grabbed the player by the hair should be suspended and fined at a minimum.The Stealers should have been flagged for having Porter jawing with a player on the field as well. As for Burfects foul the guy was just stupid even though the contact was minimal. If Brown is concussed he did it flopping to the ground.There was obviously some acting involved.
But leave it to the refs to slip a little favor in for Rooney's team any time they can.....

[kalibane]

For what it's worth, Ike Taylor (former Steeler and friend of Antonio Brown) defended the Burfict hit.

[Hawktawk]

For what it's worth, Ike Taylor (former Steeler and friend of Antonio Brown) defended the Burfict hit.

Yeah so did James Harrison and he would know I was rooting for them man. I hate the Stealers damn near as bad as Cincy fans do..

[RiverDog]

Do I really want to go through this right now? LOL

Let me say this. If you can determine that Marvin Lewis has lost control of the team then it's legitimate grounds to fire him. That being said even if it's the correct call to fire him now that doesn't mean you were correct if you thought he should be fired in the past. Additionally, I don't think you can look at that one hit on Antonio Brown and say that just based on Burfict's actions it proves he's lost control anymore than you could say Mike Shannahan didn't have control of the Broncos because of how Bill Romanowski behaved.

The reality of the situation was the Steelers were just as out of control as the Bengals and if the Steelers had lost we'd be talking about Mike Tomlin, Mike Munchak and Joey Porter instead of Marvin Lewis. The Bengals, the Steelers and the refs all share some blame for this.

It started with the Shazier hit on Bernard. It should have been a penalty for helmet to helmet hit. Then you had a coach on the sideline grabbing an opposing player by the hair. Of course you have the Burfict shenanigans and then you have everyone's favorite, Joey Porter, being allowed on the field to hang around next to the Bengal players after Antonio Brown had been moved from the field which should have been a flag.

The whole thing was completely botched and in that light, unless you have deeper knowledge of that locker room you can't really say that Marvin Lewis losing a playoff game without his starting QB who was in the MVP race prior to being injured, is grounds for firing him.

Again I have to remind you this franchise was more poorly run than the Browns franchise is currently being run until Marvin Lewis was hired. So to sum up if I was in the know and Marvin has lost control of the locker room then I'd probably fire him. If he hasn't then no, because the job he's done here is the most underrated coaching job of the past 20 years. Plus who are they going to hire who's better.

I wasn't trying to claim that I was 'right' to fire him earlier. The purpose of the thread was to gauge your own opinion, if it's changed due to the circumstances of that last playoff game, and secondly, what the atmosphere is like in the Queen City, if the fans are as outraged about the Bengals behavior.

You're right, Pittsburgh was just as out of control as the Bengals, and I think that both coaches, and the officiating crew, ought to be reprimanded. That was an ugly game, not at all the type of contest the league is trying to promote as their product.

There's one big difference between Lewis and Tomlin: Tomlin has a Lombardi and Lewis doesn't. Tomlin won last Sunday and Lewis lost. In the end, that's what coaches get paid for: To win football games, to win championships. I can't see how anyone can continue to make excuses for Marvin Lewis. They gave that game away, plain and simple, and for one reason: Lewis lost control of his team.

[HumanCockroach]

Wow I must be the only guy in Seattle that agreed that the hit on Shazier was the correct call. I agreed with the call on the field ( as well as both former heads of officiating and the current head of officiating, and every current and former official to weigh in). The hit didn't fall under defenseless receiver, nor was he more than 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage, the only "blown" part of that call I saw was whistling the play dead after the fumble preventing a huge TD. Honestly, I felt like the Bengals at that point should have been singing the officials praises.

[NorthHawk]

I think they should be trying to take that play out of the realm of legality if they are concerned about player safety. Shazier hit the RB in the head with the crown of his helmet. It wasn't like they were in the tackle box and both collided, he could have delivered a big hit without using his head.

[HumanCockroach]

I suppose they could make it a penalty, the point I was making is it wasn't one. That's all. After seeing it numerous times this week, I don't believe he was "trying" to do so. Bernard turns up field and even Jukes right into where Shazier is coming. I don't have a horse in the race. Just know that when it happened, I said, wow Pittsburgh just lost 6 points that should have been theirs, and when Burfict targeted Browns head, I said automatic 15 for defenseless receiver...

Not claiming either was right, just that as I understood the rules, they're the right calls. I don't have issues with either team ( as most Seattle fans do) and am always critical of officials, and yet my gut reaction to both was "right call" inn regards to the hits.

[HumanCockroach]

I think they should be trying to take that play out of the realm of legality if they are concerned about player safety. Shazier hit the RB in the head with the crown of his helmet. It wasn't like they were in the tackle box and both collided, he could have delivered a big hit without using his head.

If they were really concerned about "player safety" Thursday night football would be gone ( or at least have some form of accommodations installed) there would be full time doctors and officials on the sidelines that would actually pull players once injured ( IE QBs that can't stand wouldn't be allowed to finish games no matter what) defensive players would be protected as much as offensive players etc. "Player safety" is something the NFL throws out when necessary, and willfully ignores when profitable...

Player safety doesn't matter to the NFL ( well baring public perception at least).

[Seahawks4Ever]

I thought that Burfict should have been flagged when he and a few other players took the ball he had intercepted and ran off the field and down the tunnel. Wasn't that considered delay of game?? Marvin Lewis probably should have pulled Burfict aside after he did that and at least try and calm him down. But, very quickly the Bungles fumbled the ball and the rest is history.

I don't see how Rothlisbooger can even play with damaged ligaments in his throwing shoulder from his separation. Will Wallace pass concussion protocol?? I doubt the Stealers can defeat the Broncos with out these two players.

But fire Marvin Lewis? That would be dumb.

[kalibane]

I don't think Shazier was trying to spear and I'm not calling "defenseless" but he did lead with the crown of his helmet so it's a penalty for head to head by the letter. Now I'm not a big letter of the rule guy BUT considering what happened in the last game between these teams (and remember this was the same ref heading the crew) and the fact that they already had a coach grabbing a Bengal by the hair, the refs should have been calling the game extra to tight. I think that no call was what really sent things spinning in the wrong direction.

I also initially thought Burfuct running off the field was a delay of game but a former player made a good point. Interception balls are kept by the player all the time so taking the ball really isn't a delay it's pretty common for a ref to have to get a new ball after an interception or touchdown.

Riv, I know you weren't "you" in the general sense. I was just drawing a distinction.

[HumanCockroach]

I don't think Shazier was trying to spear and I'm not calling "defenseless" but he did lead with the crown of his helmet so it's a penalty for head to head by the letter. Now I'm not a big letter of the rule guy BUT considering what happened in the last game between these teams (and remember this was the same ref heading the crew) and the fact that they already had a coach grabbing a Bengal by the hair, the refs should have been calling the game extra to tight. I think that no call was what really sent things spinning in the wrong direction.

I also initially thought Burfuct running off the field was a delay of game but a former player made a good point. Interception balls are kept by the player all the time so taking the ball really isn't a delay it's pretty common for a ref to have to get a new ball after an interception or touchdown.

Riv, I know you weren't "you" in the general sense. I was just drawing a distinction.

Per the letter of the law, legal.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/01/sh ... -analysts/

Piera explains it clearly in this. In essence, none of the reasons that people are using apply in a "bang bang" play. Helmet contact, as well as crown, butting etc aren't penalties if the player isn't "lining up" another player.

You're using "letter of the law" but the "law" states this IS a legal play, with no penalty.

[kalibane]

if it can be spun in any way to make the refs correct that's the way pereira spins it. It has to be absolutely indefensible for him to say a ref screwed the pooch. I don't give a damn what that dude says. If a flag had been thrown he'd be defending the penalty. They are saying that Gio made a football move but all he did was turn and I can't count the number of times I've seen s flag thrown on that same play and turning wasn't enough for Periera to call it a football move it always comes down to launching and leading with the crown. I'm not a fan of the call but it's made all the time and given the history of these two teams and what had already happened in the game the call should have been made.

That's why refs get so much s***. They're inconsistent in their calls and then go down swinging swearing that they aren't.

[burrrton]

That's why refs get so much s***. They're inconsistent in their calls and then go down swinging swearing that they aren't.

This. The inconsistency is the most aggravating thing about the ins-and-outs of the game I've experienced in my 37 years watching NFL football.

Every play of an NFL game has something take place they sometimes call, and sometimes let go- it's becoming like the fcking NBA.

[RiverDog]

I thought that Burfict should have been flagged when he and a few other players took the ball he had intercepted and ran off the field and down the tunnel. Wasn't that considered delay of game?? Marvin Lewis probably should have pulled Burfict aside after he did that and at least try and calm him down. But, very quickly the Bungles fumbled the ball and the rest is history.

I don't see how Rothlisbooger can even play with damaged ligaments in his throwing shoulder from his separation. Will Wallace pass concussion protocol?? I doubt the Stealers can defeat the Broncos with out these two players.

But fire Marvin Lewis? That would be dumb.

There were several times where Burfict was at least walking a fine line between legal play and a PF. One was when he pulled DeCastro (Pitt OG) down by grabbing on to him when DeCastro made a perfectly legitimate block.

I wouldn't be advocating that the Bengals get rid of Marvin Lewis if it wasn't for the fact that he's the longest tenured HC in the league and has yet to win a playoff game. This game was the straw that broke the camel's back. There's no excuse for him letting his team get out of control as they were and allowing it to cost the team the season.

[HumanCockroach]

if it can be spun in any way to make the refs correct that's the way pereira spins it. It has to be absolutely indefensible for him to say a ref screwed the pooch. I don't give a damn what that dude says. If a flag had been thrown he'd be defending the penalty. They are saying that Gio made a football move but all he did was turn and I can't count the number of times I've seen s flag thrown on that same play and turning wasn't enough for Periera to call it a football move it always comes down to launching and leading with the crown. I'm not a fan of the call but it's made all the time and given the history of these two teams and what had already happened in the game the call should have been made.

That's why refs get so much s***. They're inconsistent in their calls and then go down swinging swearing that they aren't.

Sorry man, you're grasping at straws here. First you claim "letter of the law" now you're claiming "it's called all the time"? It isn't, because it isn't a penalty. He didn't "launch himself" though he did use the top of his crown and made helmet contact ( which has already been explained as not a penalty) I'm certainly not claiming they shouldn't look at making it a penalty, just explaining why it wasn't, and was called correctly. Spearing involves intent to harm another player by targeting and using the helmet as a weapon. I certainly didn't s see either of those things. Both players were moving at full speed, and whether you want to agree with the call or not, based on the aforementioned "letter of the law" it was indeed a legal hit. A player is allowed helmet to helmet contact on a runner, Gio like it or not WAS a runner. It sucks for Gio and the Bengals, but that's football, sometimes things happen that result in injuries, losses or mistakes.

[Hawktawk]

AJ McCarron played pretty well down the stretch in that game and did some decent things when in the lineup. Any thoughts as to how he fits into the Bengals plans moving forward? Looks to me like they have an extremely competent backup and someone who could push Dalton to a new level or maybe even pass him someday.

[NorthHawk]

Sorry man, you're grasping at straws here. First you claim "letter of the law" now you're claiming "it's called all the time"? It isn't, because it isn't a penalty. He didn't "launch himself" though he did use the top of his crown and made helmet contact ( which has already been explained as not a penalty) I'm certainly not claiming they shouldn't look at making it a penalty, just explaining why it wasn't, and was called correctly. Spearing involves intent to harm another player by targeting and using the helmet as a weapon. I certainly didn't s see either of those things. Both players were moving at full speed, and whether you want to agree with the call or not, based on the aforementioned "letter of the law" it was indeed a legal hit. A player is allowed helmet to helmet contact on a runner, Gio like it or not WAS a runner. It sucks for Gio and the Bengals, but that's football, sometimes things happen that result in injuries, losses or mistakes.

Isn't the rule helmet to helmet is permitted only within the tackle box on a run play?
We had a discussion about this when the rule was initially changed and I thought that was the case.
For some reason, I thought it was a pass to the RB.

[HumanCockroach]

No, helmet to helmet hits s
Aren't outlawed or an automatic penalty, unless there is targeting involved. Meaning "high" tackles, helmet contact is legal as long as a player isn't lining the other player up for the shot. In this case the intent wasn't clear ( in all honesty it happened to fast to be anything but a high tackle) hence no flag.

[RiverDog]

Isn't the rule helmet to helmet is permitted only within the tackle box on a run play?
We had a discussion about this when the rule was initially changed and I thought that was the case.
For some reason, I thought it was a pass to the RB.

Yes, that was the anti Beast using the helmet as a battering ram rule, which I've never seen called. Have any of you seen it called?

[HumanCockroach]

It hasn't been called because the way the rule is worded REQUIRES the player to "line up" an opposing player and use the helmet as a weapon. Since players seldom "line up" a player ( Shazier could be used as an example as there was no time to fulfill this portion of the requirements) it is seldom ( if ever) called. Because the players aren't breaking ANY rules when helmet to helmet contact occurs.

[HumanCockroach]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -believed/

[RiverDog]

It hasn't been called because the way the rule is worded REQUIRES the player to "line up" an opposing player and use the helmet as a weapon. Since players seldom "line up" a player ( Shazier could be used as an example as there was no time to fulfill this portion of the requirements) it is seldom ( if ever) called. Because the players aren't breaking ANY rules when helmet to helmet contact occurs.

Has it ever been called? It's been two full seasons since the rule has been on the books.

If it's that narrowly defined to where it hasn't been called in over 500 games, then why have the rule in the first place? I can't believe that a situation, as narrowly defined as it is, hasn't happened in that many games.

It's rules like this one that scare me, similar to the KJ Wright flicking the ball out of the end zone. Seldom used except in a crucial spot in a playoff game and a huge controversy will erupt. If they're not going to call it, then take it off the books.

[HumanCockroach]

What the rule changes: A 15-yard penalty will be called if a runner or a tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players clearly are outside the tackle box (an area extending from tackle-to-tackle and from 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team's end line). Incidental contact by the helmet of a runner or a tackler against an opponent would not be deemed a foul.

I looked RD I couldn't find a single instance of one being called ( yet another added rule to clog the rulebook) this is the "why" it wasn't ( nor shouldn't) have been called a penalty.

[RiverDog]

I looked RD I couldn't find a single instance of one being called ( yet another added rule to clog the rulebook) this is the "why" it wasn't ( nor shouldn't) have been called a penalty.

Thanks for doing my homework for me, HC.

And you're right about clogging the rule book with blue laws. Kinda like when they put 55 mph speed limit signs on California freeways.