Jimmy Graham

[RiverDog]

So what happens with Jimmy Graham? Does he stay or do we trade him? Is a trade even a viable idea? Or do we attempt again what we tried and failed to do in the first part of this season: Incorporate him into our offense and give Russell the big target, red zone threat that he's been lacking.

Personally, if it's viable, I'd like to see us trade him for a player at a position of need, such as an offensive lineman. We're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He's not cut out to be a tight end in this offense.

[obiken]

Great question Riv.
1. He cannot block
2. He is a good to great receiver.
3. He is fairly fast and can get open.

So I say put him in the slot, and forget the TE stuff. Am I wrong??

[c_hawkbob]

Always open to trade offers, but I still think he can become a valuable asset and he is already under contract. I don't we need to actively do anything beyond moving forward with him as a part of our team.

[obiken]

Fine Cbob but we are going to have to find a way to utilize him. NO way with our line we can allow him to be a TE in our system. Shoot, I would rather put him at wide out, than back at TE.

[Hawktawk]

His trade value would be significantly less than we paid. He was not a team cancer and was in the middle of an explosive Jimmy Graham type game when injured. He could have broken the team single season tight end record for catches even having such a slow start.
He's a keeper.

[Hawktown]

I'm going to say that with the slow start that the Hawks had, we cannot really gauge what JG could have been to the team though he looked as if he could have been great as I though that he was getting better in this system.

[mykc14]

I don't think you get much in a trade, although something is better than nothing. It's a tough question. The cap savings is huge by getting rid of him (9 mil) and although he is a huge weapon to have there is a good chance him and RW won't get to work on their chemistry during the offseason. Our O really clicked after he went down. Personally I think that is more coincidence than causation but it can't be overlooked. IMO I think we don't do anything with him. I think he will stay on the roster and will not be ready for training camp. I could see him pushing to get back early and re-aggravating his injury. I wouldn't be shocked to see him start on PUP. Patellar injuries are hard to recover from and even if he plays next year he might not be the same.

[NorthHawk]

Yeah, can he get to 100% healthy is the question, and when will he be there if he can.
I said when we got him that I hope they used him as a Receiver only, and not expect him to be a blocker.
They seemed to give up changing a silk purse into a sow's ear before he got injured and he started to become productive.
I've never got the concept of taking a player and limiting his special skills to make him a complete player.
It's a bit odd that they tried to make him a blocker, because the scouts have said that they look for special qualities in a player then try to find a way to use and accentuate those skills on the field. We did the opposite with Graham.
He's a receiving Tight End, not a blocking Tight End, so use him like a big WR.

[RiverDog]

Always open to trade offers, but I still think he can become a valuable asset and he is already under contract. I don't we need to actively do anything beyond moving forward with him as a part of our team.

I disagree. If we are going to keep him on this team, we have to do something different with him rather than the stand pat option. I do not think it a coincidence that our offense suddenly exploded, going from arguably one of the worst offenses in the league with the worst BY FAR red zone efficiencies, one of the worst points producing offenses, and one of the last in first downs, to a top 5 offense with Graham out. Russell wasn't forcing the ball into Graham, was spreading it around more, giving guys like Baldwin and Lockett more targets.

He did show some moderate improvement in his blocking (he only had one direction to go... he was that bad) as the season progressed, but he simply is not a traditional, inline tight end. If we keep him, which seems more likely than not, we need to use him differently if we expect different results. Convert him to a wide receiver and do away with this nonsense of playing him as an inline tight end and put someone else at the inline tight end spot. It's apparent that he doesn't like blocking and isn't very good at it, so why force him? It's the quintessential round peg into a square hole proposition.

The need to do something different with Graham will only increase if we don't bring Okung back and don't acquire a better LT than Bailey.

[Hawk Sista]

I agree with the sentiments that suggest A. he was on pace to best franchise TE records. B. our Offense had yet to find itself when he was injured. C. He was having a helluva game when he was injured D. I do not think that we got better because Lynch and Graham went out. I think we got better after the Cardinal game because if we didn't, we would not have made the playoffs and the team responded in every phase of the game. The biggest thing that shifted was the elimination of Nowak and Cary in favor of Lewis and Lane.

It will be fascinating to see Jimmy come back and what he could do with an O-line that actually gives RW enough time to find him. While trade offers and competition are always the way this current regime will do things, I think they are excited at having a healthy Jimmy with RW, Doug and Rawls on O.

[Hawktawk]

I agree with the sentiments that suggest A. he was on pace to best franchise TE records. B. our Offense had yet to find itself when he was injured. C. He was having a helluva game when he was injured D. I do not think that we got better because Lynch and Graham went out. I think we got better after the Cardinal game because if we didn't, we would not have made the playoffs and the team responded in every phase of the game. The biggest thing that shifted was the elimination of Nowak and Cary in favor of Lewis and Lane.

It will be fascinating to see Jimmy come back and what he could do with an O-line that actually gives RW enough time to find him. While trade offers and competition are always the way this current regime will do things, I think they are excited at having a healthy Jimmy with RW, Doug and Rawls on O.

Exactly.I could not agree more completely with that post.

[mykc14]

It will be fascinating to see Jimmy come back and what he could do with an O-line that actually gives RW enough time to find him. While trade offers and competition are always the way this current regime will do things, I think they are excited at having a healthy Jimmy with RW, Doug and Rawls on O.

Although I agree with this idea I am not sure how healthy he will be going into the season. This type of injury is, in some ways, harder to recover from than an ACL. Many players don't return to form until two seasons after the injury. I would love to project Jimmy as a huge part of this offense if he and RW had the whole offseason, mini-camps, OTAs, and training camp to work with each other but that doesn't look like it is going to be the case. Hopefully he is one of those few guys who recovers quickly from this injury but it seems like he's got a long road to fully recover.

[EmeraldBullet]

I know this is a bit off topic but we have a small handful of inured players that we really don't know how long it's going to take to heal and how long they will be out. Rawls comes to mind. These are questions that we will just have to wait and see to have answered.

[RiverDog]

It will be fascinating to see Jimmy come back and what he could do with an O-line that actually gives RW enough time to find him. While trade offers and competition are always the way this current regime will do things, I think they are excited at having a healthy Jimmy with RW, Doug and Rawls on O.

Graham is part of that OL that doesn't give RW time, Sis. In years past, we had very solid blocking tight ends... Miller and McCoy... heck, I swear that Zach Miller was a better pass blocker than our offensive tackles. The situation was made worse because Luke isn't a great blocker, either.

Having Graham line up as an inline tight end limits our options. Square peg, round hole.

[Oly]

Graham is part of that OL that doesn't give RW time, Sis.

How often did the Hawks ask Graham to pass block? I don't recall him doing a ton of that, but I'll admit that I wasn't really paying enough attention to know for sure.

I tend to agree with those who are saying that Graham is a great weapon and will help the offense. I do think it was a coincidence that the offense got better when Graham went out. Mostly, the co-incident was the OL improving. I do think that they were forcing Graham the ball too, though, and once he went out Wilson was freer in finding the open guy. With this being Graham's 2nd year, I think that pressure will be off and they'll just integrate him.

Go Hawks!

[obiken]

I agree but because of it our OL play suffered. He is not a blocker. We'll have to see.

[Hawktawk]

Grahams blocking was improving although it will never be his strong suit. Its stupid to force the role on him, he's far more valuable, like 100 catch 10+ TD valuable, especially with the way Russ is opening up as a passer.

I went back and watched the Steelers game. Graham made several plays that not too many guys make. He was off the hook before being injured and it didn't look like Russ was "forcing" any throws to him. I hope he's back and healthy.

[mykc14]

How often did the Hawks ask Graham to pass block? I don't recall him doing a ton of that, but I'll admit that I wasn't really paying enough attention to know for sure.

Go Hawks!

I was watching and it was more than a few times. He was really bad, almost immediate pressure when he tried to pass block. His run blocking was really bad as well. Maybe it was getting a little better as the year progressed and it would be really hard to expect him to be decent or average considering he has never really been asked to block before this year, but IMO it wasn't something that was going to work consistently even if he didn't get injured.

[RiverDog]

How often did the Hawks ask Graham to pass block? I don't recall him doing a ton of that, but I'll admit that I wasn't really paying enough attention to know for sure.

I tend to agree with those who are saying that Graham is a great weapon and will help the offense. I do think it was a coincidence that the offense got better when Graham went out. Mostly, the co-incident was the OL improving. I do think that they were forcing Graham the ball too, though, and once he went out Wilson was freer in finding the open guy. With this being Graham's 2nd year, I think that pressure will be off and they'll just integrate him.

Go Hawks!

I don't have any numbers as to how often he was asked to pass block, but the times he did he was horrible. He's not cut out to be a pass blocker. His tall, lanky frame doesn't really make it easy for him. He doesn't bend his knees and get low enough to get under the shoulder pads of the DL, has horrible footwork. If you didn't see him pass blocking much, then it's because Bevell realized how bad he was and stopped calling plays or deploying him in situations that required that he stayed in and blocked, thus placing a limitation on the plays we called and putting even more pressure on an under performing offensive line.

2 or 3 games might be a coincidence, but winning 5 of the last 6 after having lost 5 of the previous 10 is an undeniable trend, especially in the manner we accomplished it, via the passing game minus Graham.

[NorthHawk]

The Offense also went to a quicker passing game.
That might have had an impact on how well Graham did if he wasn't hurt.
It's something that should have been tried a lot earlier when the pass blocking was really bad.

[EmeraldBullet]

I think there might be something to having Graham used more as a slot receiver and maybe a 3rd down type TE, in situations where it's already known were gonna be throwing the ball anyway.

[RiverDog]

The Offense also went to a quicker passing game.
That might have had an impact on how well Graham did if he wasn't hurt.
It's something that should have been tried a lot earlier when the pass blocking was really bad.

Perhaps he would have contributed more in the passing game, but there's still the problem with is blocking, a critical element in Pete's scheme.

This was just a really bad trade, and we're paying for it dearly.

[obiken]

ITs a bad trade because what we gave up he is still a good red zone and slot receiver, at TE I am with you, its a non starter.

[Uppercut]

Hawks seem to do much better with players who are not big names. JG is very good in the right setting and many teams would want him but not a good fit in our puzzle although that may be changing. I am not sure if Gronk would fit here either.

[RiverDog]

ITs a bad trade because what we gave up he is still a good red zone and slot receiver, at TE I am with you, its a non starter.

Graham played in 10+ games and scored just 1 TD in the red zone. That's pretty solid evidence that we were not utilizing him properly and that something needs to change.

I read an article that echoed some of North Hawk's comments about this type of knee injury. It's going to be a particularly difficult recovery process for him. I wouldn't be counting on him to contribute much of anything next season and wouldn't be surprised if he gets cut, so our discussion about how to utilize him might be a moot point.

[obiken]

Cut?? are you kidding me! We gave an All Pro Center and a 1st rounder for a cut job?? If that happens I am going to flip out River. Not that they care.

[c_hawkbob]

Graham played in 10+ games and scored just 1 TD in the red zone. That's pretty solid evidence that we were not utilizing him properly and that something needs to change.

I read an article that echoed some of North Hawk's comments about this type of knee injury. It's going to be a particularly difficult recovery process for him. I wouldn't be counting on him to contribute much of anything next season and wouldn't be surprised if he gets cut, so our discussion about how to utilize him might be a moot point.

You're talking about after next season if indeed he fails to recover physically right?

No way he gets cut before the season, they ain't gonna give up on that big an investment that easily.

[NorthHawk]

Graham only has 2 years left on his existing contract so if he isn't ready next year we only get one+ years production.
How does injury affect the Cap? Is his full salary reflected in the Cap totals or is there some type of reduction because he is unavailable because of injury?

[RiverDog]

You're talking about after next season if indeed he fails to recover physically right?

No way he gets cut before the season, they ain't gonna give up on that big an investment that easily.

Yes, of course. I should have made that more clear.

[monkey]

So what happens with Jimmy Graham? Does he stay or do we trade him? Is a trade even a viable idea? Or do we attempt again what we tried and failed to do in the first part of this season: Incorporate him into our offense and give Russell the big target, red zone threat that he's been lacking.

Personally, if it's viable, I'd like to see us trade him for a player at a position of need, such as an offensive lineman. We're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. He's not cut out to be a tight end in this offense.

Why would we trade a guy we're not even sure will come back from his injury? We gave up a first and Unger to get him, and right now we'd be LUCKY to get anything even approaching that in a trade, because no one is even sure how the injury will affect him.
Furthermore, in spite of all the whining about him, he was GOOD for us. He had multiple big games for us last year.
I for one cannot wait to see him in year two, with a Russell Wilson who has taken big steps forward. Our receiving corps next season is set to be absolutely terrific with Graham and Lockett, in their second season with the team, and more in sync with Russell, and a Baldwin who has become a legitimate superstar. (I expect Kearse to return on a cap friendly deal). As well as the return of Paul Richardson (who everyone seems to have forgotten about) etc...
So long as Jimmy Graham can return to full health (that is a big question considering the type of injury he suffered, that injury can end people's careers!) I fully expect him to be more integrated in the offense, so that we'll see less forcing the issue with him, less trying to get him involved, and more just using him as the big body receiver he really is.
Bevell might need to be slapped upside the head to get him to stop trying to make him a typical blocking TE, and just use him for what he is, A HUGE mismatch at receiver primarily.

I don't see why people are so down on the trade. It virtually ALWAYS takes a year for newly acquired talent (whether through free agency or trade) to really integrate into the new team. I was never expecting otherwise with Graham (though I was expecting Bevell to be smarter about how to use him, but that's not Graham's fault), I will be expecting a BIG step forward this next year though after another training camp with Wilson in this offense.

Personally I am absolutely GEEKING about what this offense will look like next year, with Graham, Lockett and Rawls all in year two, and with Wilson having spent the off season in what Pete described as a "Masters class" with the coach.
Obviously that is all reliant on Graham actually being able to come back from that injury, which is not at all a slam dunk.
Even so, with or without Graham, this offense is poised for BIG things next year. I can't wait to see Rawls tearing up the league next year, with Wilson continuing to set and break records.

[RiverDog]

Why would we trade a guy we're not even sure will come back from his injury? We gave up a first and Unger to get him, and right now we'd be LUCKY to get anything even approaching that in a trade, because no one is even sure how the injury will affect him.
Furthermore, in spite of all the whining about him, he was GOOD for us. He had multiple big games for us last year.
I for one cannot wait to see him in year two, with a Russell Wilson who has taken big steps forward. Our receiving corps next season is set to be absolutely terrific with Graham and Lockett, in their second season with the team, and more in sync with Russell, and a Baldwin who has become a legitimate superstar. (I expect Kearse to return on a cap friendly deal). As well as the return of Paul Richardson (who everyone seems to have forgotten about) etc...
So long as Jimmy Graham can return to full health (that is a big question considering the type of injury he suffered, that injury can end people's careers!) I fully expect him to be more integrated in the offense, so that we'll see less forcing the issue with him, less trying to get him involved, and more just using him as the big body receiver he really is.
Bevell might need to be slapped upside the head to get him to stop trying to make him a typical blocking TE, and just use him for what he is, A HUGE mismatch at receiver primarily.

I don't see why people are so down on the trade. It virtually ALWAYS takes a year for newly acquired talent (whether through free agency or trade) to really integrate into the new team. I was never expecting otherwise with Graham (though I was expecting Bevell to be smarter about how to use him, but that's not Graham's fault), I will be expecting a BIG step forward this next year though after another training camp with Wilson in this offense.

Personally I am absolutely GEEKING about what this offense will look like next year, with Graham, Lockett and Rawls all in year two, and with Wilson having spent the off season in what Pete described as a "Masters class" with the coach.
Obviously that is all reliant on Graham actually being able to come back from that injury, which is not at all a slam dunk.
Even so, with or without Graham, this offense is poised for BIG things next year. I can't wait to see Rawls tearing up the league next year, with Wilson continuing to set and break records.

First off, I didn't say trade him per se. I said if it is viable, which means if we could get a decent return for him, understanding that no way would we get anywhere close to what we traded for him. I say cut our losses if there's a decent deal out there.

Secondly, the reason some of us are down on this trade is that it obviously has yet to work out and no real evidence that it ever will. The promise was that Graham was going to be this red zone menace that was going to help elevate Russell's game. In 10 regular season games he scored 1 red zone TD. We played our worst football of the season with Graham in the lineup, our best football of the season without him. Coincidence? You could argue that, but I'm not buying it. I'm not necessarily saying it's his fault, either. What I am saying is that it was a bad fit and that one of the reasons why our offense wasn't performing is that we were trying to make this trade look good by forcing the ball into Graham and that once he was out, we started spreading the ball around more and giving Baldwin and No E more targets.

And thirdly, I don't accept your claim that it takes more than a year for a new, veteran player to adapt to another team's system. It happens all the time if the fit is right and if the organization knows how to use them. Randy Moss to the Patriots is the most prolific example I can think of, Marshall Faulk being another. Beast started producing in his first year with us, and a partial year at that. Brandon Stokely was another mid season acquisition that was, by year's end, one of our top producing wide receivers. Neither of those two even went to training camp with the Hawks.

This one never felt right in the first place, mainly because Graham is a finesse player on a smash mouth team, a poor blocker in a run first offense. Heck, even some of our own players were calling him soft before this trade was made.

[NorthHawk]

Your last sentence is telling, RD.
They didn't use him properly at first probably in a large part because of the poor OL play, but his catch total was beginning to improve.
I'm not sure if they want him to be what he is, though and that's a big receiver, not a traditional TE.

[RiverDog]

Your last sentence is telling, RD.
They didn't use him properly at first probably in a large part because of the poor OL play, but his catch total was beginning to improve.
I'm not sure if they want him to be what he is, though and that's a big receiver, not a traditional TE.

That's part of my argument, North. If we are going to make this trade work, we need to significantly alter the paradigm. Forget about him playing as an inline tight end and turn him into a wide receiver.

Plus IMO he was part of the reason for that poor OL play. In the past, we could hold in a TE to block and support our tackles when the need arose. How many times did we hold Zach Miller in to block when our OT was out matched? Graham blocks like a bull fighter.

[Hawktawk]

That's part of my argument, North. If we are going to make this trade work, we need to significantly alter the paradigm.

I think we do need to alter the paradigm RD. Teams have adjusted not only to our defensive personnel but also the scheme. Overall they had a statistically great season in many areas but proved vulnerable against the better teams in critical moments. The offense need to do more and do it earlier in the games. We could take a lesson from the Patriots vs. KCs stout run defense. Great run defense against an ineffective run game? Ok how about we do 11 plays all passes for a TD drive on the first possession?

Russ is at another level now and could easily do that. His passing game can carry us if necessary and its time to open up the offense. If healthy Graham could be a huge factor in that.

[RiverDog]

I think we do need to alter the paradigm RD. Teams have adjusted not only to our defensive personnel but also the scheme. Overall they had a statistically great season in many areas but proved vulnerable against the better teams in critical moments. The offense need to do more and do it earlier in the games. We could take a lesson from the Patriots vs. KCs stout run defense. Great run defense against an ineffective run game? Ok how about we do 11 plays all passes for a TD drive on the first possession?

Russ is at another level now and could easily do that. His passing game can carry us if necessary and its time to open up the offense. If healthy Graham could be a huge factor in that.

That's one thing that Russell proved this season: That he can be a Drew Brees-type of quarterback that can run a high scoring, sling the ball around passing offense and carry his team if he were asked to do that, and I think if we did a little more of what you are suggesting without wandering too far away from our roots of a run first offense that we'd be more successful.

And I really want to get away from this notion that it's not how you start, it's how you finish philosophy. In a different season, 10-6 might not have been good enough to even make the playoffs. Those early games count just as much as the games down the stretch in December.

[monkey]

Seems to me that you've already made up your mind about him. John Schneider completely disagrees with you, http://www.fieldgulls.com/2016/1/22/10816104/seahawks-john-schneider-marshawn-lynch-jimmy-graham so do I.

I also stand by what I said, most often it does take a year for a free agent to really get with the new team, there are obviously exceptions as there always are, but the norm is that it takes some time to learn the ropes, and maybe just as much (especially in the case of Bevell), for the team to learn how to properly utilize their new weapon.
Graham is not the prototypical TE, what he is, is one of the biggest matchup nightmares in the entire league. If we cannot figure out how to properly utilize that, that certainly isn't Graham's fault, the fault lies with Bevell. Bevell can be frustrating at times, but I must say that this season I felt he did a better job of adjusting to the injuries, and adjusting to the offensive line problems better than I ever thought he would. I think that he'll figure out a way to use one of the leagues most dangerous players (Graham) and now that he's had him in his offense for part of a year, I expect him to figure it out this upcoming season.

I may be wrong, but I am going to give this team the benefit of the doubt at this point, they've certainly earned it!

[PTHawker]

Hello HawkShack members
1st time poster, long time Seahawk fan
I wasn't sure where to post my greetings, so I thought the Jimmy Graham thread would work fine, since I"m a big Jimmy guy.
Yes, he definitely needs to stay as he adds a great dimension to our offense, even if it wasn't shown as good as the hype was.
I really believe after this year, he can reflect and realize that our offense is a little different than the offense he had in New Orleans. Here we play a more fluid style of offense, where the play isn't dead if the pocket breaks down. I'm not sure he really understood that in the beginning, but upon retrospect he should understand it better. I also believe his blocking will be better, and I thought it was getting better as the year went on before he was injured. Again, I think its how fluid our offense is that makes knowing who to block a little more challenging.
I hope to see great things from him in the coming year and with him, Lockett and ADB, I really think Wilson will have a monster year.

[obiken]

Welcome to the jungle guy!! Seriously, the posters in here are respectful and we welcome a any new guy (or Gal) in here!!

I am a big Jimmy guy myself! The ONLY issue I have is his lack of blocking ability. I think as a slot receiver he would be gold.
Interesting to see how he heals and what PC and JS do with him.

[RiverDog]

Hello HawkShack members
1st time poster, long time Seahawk fan
I wasn't sure where to post my greetings, so I thought the Jimmy Graham thread would work fine, since I"m a big Jimmy guy.
Yes, he definitely needs to stay as he adds a great dimension to our offense, even if it wasn't shown as good as the hype was.
I really believe after this year, he can reflect and realize that our offense is a little different than the offense he had in New Orleans. Here we play a more fluid style of offense, where the play isn't dead if the pocket breaks down. I'm not sure he really understood that in the beginning, but upon retrospect he should understand it better. I also believe his blocking will be better, and I thought it was getting better as the year went on before he was injured. Again, I think its how fluid our offense is that makes knowing who to block a little more challenging.
I hope to see great things from him in the coming year and with him, Lockett and ADB, I really think Wilson will have a monster year.

Hey, welcome to the Shack, Brother 12! Obi is right. There's a ton of disagreement in here, but at the end of the day, we're all Seahawks fans. This isn't a heavily trafficked site, but that's what I like about it. Plus the mods are the coolest guys on the planet. I hope you stick around.

[Oly]

Hello HawkShack members
1st time poster, long time Seahawk fan
I wasn't sure where to post my greetings, so I thought the Jimmy Graham thread would work fine, since I"m a big Jimmy guy.
Yes, he definitely needs to stay as he adds a great dimension to our offense, even if it wasn't shown as good as the hype was.
I really believe after this year, he can reflect and realize that our offense is a little different than the offense he had in New Orleans. Here we play a more fluid style of offense, where the play isn't dead if the pocket breaks down. I'm not sure he really understood that in the beginning, but upon retrospect he should understand it better. I also believe his blocking will be better, and I thought it was getting better as the year went on before he was injured. Again, I think its how fluid our offense is that makes knowing who to block a little more challenging.
I hope to see great things from him in the coming year and with him, Lockett and ADB, I really think Wilson will have a monster year.

Welcome to the Shack! As RD said, this board is small enough that people know each other, and that helps people disagree without turning into jerks. It's my favorite Hawks board on the net.

On Graham, I'm also higher on him than some others. His blocking is a liability and will always be, but Carroll's focus has always been on finding ways to make players' specific talents shine. He's not a system guy where everyone has to fit into his square peg. I trust that he can figure out a way to put Graham in a position to succeed.