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by **obiken** » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:37 pm

Warner by far. I would pay big money to have Warner back in his prime!

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:49 am

obiken wrote:Warner by far. I would pay big money to have Warner back in his prime!

I don't like getting into these debates comparing athletes from different eras. Both were great running backs. But I would never say that either one was 'by far' better than the other.

by **obiken** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:12 am

Great point. Tiger or Jack, Tiger by far!
Fischer or Capablanca, Capa by a hair!

by **Hawktawk** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:41 am

Warner's prime was his rookie yearhelping Seattle to the AFC Title game. He blew that knee in the 84 opener. He came back the next year but was never the same back in terms of the lateral quickness and explosiveness. Still very good but not the same and a fairly short career as a productive back.
As an impact player for Seattle its Lynch by a mile. One could argue his impact on the franchise if not his overall stats would rival SA's.

by **Oly** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:09 am

Hawktawk wrote:Warner's prime was his rookie yearhelping Seattle to the AFC Title game. He blew that knee in the 84 opener. He came back the next year but was never the same back in terms of the lateral quickness and explosiveness. Still very good but not the same and a fairly short career as a productive back.
As an impact player for Seattle its Lynch by a mile. One could argue his impact on the franchise if not his overall stats would rival SA's.

I agree: what BeastMode did in the playoffs, as well as how much he shaped the identity of the greatest team in Hawks history, easily puts him at the top of the all-time Hawks RB list.

by **c_hawkbob** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:30 am

Between the big three if I was able to have any one of them as a rookie next year I'd take Alexander. His production is inarguable and he'd completely buy in to Pete's philosophy (the one factor that keeps Beast from being my #1 pick).

Beast is easily my favorite to watch on any given day, his running style is by far the most viscerally satisfying since Earl Campbell and Larry Csonka.

Love Warner and what he meant to the team at the time, but i'm afraid he's #3 in my book.

by **NorthHawk** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 9:52 am

For Pete's team? Lynch by a mile - he might have been great on a Knox team, too, but like said above he shaped the identity of the team and that might be the most important quality required to get every other player to buy in and never give up. I doubt we would have won a Super Bowl with any other RB because that identity would not be the same.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:02 am

Hawktawk wrote:Warner's prime was his rookie yearhelping Seattle to the AFC Title game. He blew that knee in the 84 opener. He came back the next year but was never the same back in terms of the lateral quickness and explosiveness. Still very good but not the same and a fairly short career as a productive back.
As an impact player for Seattle its Lynch by a mile. One could argue his impact on the franchise if not his overall stats would rival SA's.

Another factor is that Lynch's efforts helped produce the best w/l record in the league over a 3 year span including 2 SB appearances and a Lombardi. That has to count for something. His style defined the personality of the team, gave them that chip on their shoulder. Cbob has a good point about some of his baggage, the type that the other two weren't carrying.

Agreed about Warner's knee injury. He did have the best season of his career a couple years after the surgery, but he wasn't the same.

Alexander deserves to be in the conversation as well. He did something that the other two and no other Seahawks has done... won a league MVP... but the way he imploded so quickly after getting his big contract was a huge disappointment.

by **EmeraldBullet** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:18 am

Don't forget Alexander also got to run behind perhaps the best OL in seahawks history.

by **RiverDog** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:21 am

EmeraldBullet wrote:Don't forget Alexander also got to run behind perhaps the best OL in seahawks history.

No 'perhaps' about it. That was unarguably the best OL in Seahawks history, no doubt about it, plus he was running behind perhaps the best blocking fullback we've ever had.

by **NorthHawk** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:13 am

Alexander's style of falling down at first contact wouldn't have gone down well with this team.
His style just wouldn't have fit the identity that Pete wanted and the rest of the team demands.

by **EmeraldBullet** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:34 am

Could you imagine Lynch in his prime behind Alexanders OL? He would've been better than LT.

by **savvyman** » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Lynch by a mile.

It is an insult to the sacrifice and abuse of his physical well being that Marshawn willingly gave to his teammates and to the community to mention Alexander in the same conversation as Lynch.

by **obiken** » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:39 am

I thought trading SA for Cory Dillon would have been a good move and I took MASSIVE heat but years down the road I still feel I was right. SA never got the tough yards up the middle, and always ran out of bounds.

by **obiken** » Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:41 am

Sorry I started this thread maybe it was a little off. But hey, we have nothing till April right?

by **RiverDog** » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:56 am

obiken wrote:Sorry I started this thread maybe it was a little off. But hey, we have nothing till April right?

No need to be sorry, obi. It's a great thread.

by **monkey** » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:27 pm

obiken wrote:Warner by far. I would pay big money to have Warner back in his prime!

I remember Warner in his prime as though it were yesterday, I absolutely loved that guy! He was easily one of my all time favorite Seahawks players.
Having said that, I have never, EVER seen a RB quite like Marshawn Lynch.
Lynch is a completely unique RB, with his wide base/stance/running style, providing him amazing balance, which in turn helps his already off the charts, raw power.
Lynch's unique body build, with that wide base, gives him extraordinary balance, which in turn, allows him to stop on a dime, or break tackles while on one leg. His raw power, which I have heard described as being "country strong", allows him to stiff arm some doofus into the turf, or turn around and push an entire pile of defenders. Added to all of that is his desire to actually punish defenders, his willingness to run over or through anyone anywhere anytime.
The only RB I have ever seen in the entire history of the NFL that is even remotely comparable to Lynch's unique skill set, was Earl Campbell, but even Campbell didn't have as wide a base, so Campbell didn't cut as well as Lynch can. There's never been another running back quite like him ever, and there probably never ever will.

I'd take Lynch over Warner, hands down. Again, I loved Warner, he was a HUGE favorite of mine as a kid, but the truth is, I could EASILY make the argument that Alexander was a better RB than Warner, whether Warner got hurt or not.

by **monkey** » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:01 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Between the big three if I was able to have any one of them as a rookie next year I'd take Alexander. His production is inarguable and he'd completely buy in to Pete's philosophy (the one factor that keeps Beast from being my #1 pick).

Beast is easily my favorite to watch on any given day, his running style is by far the most viscerally satisfying since Earl Campbell and Larry Csonka.

Love Warner and what he meant to the team at the time, but i'm afraid he's #3 in my book.

I agree with you about Alexander, people forget just how good he truly was. He's so underrated around here (mostly because of all the whiny cry baby fans that decided they didn't personally like him because he smiled too much or because he didn't like not getting the rushing title when he should have gotten it, or because he didn't put his shoulder down and try to hurt himself running into tacklers).

I'm going to throw another name into the mix of RB's we're talking about here, and make a seriously bold prediction, one that will sound absolutely crazy perhaps, but may make more sense once I explain why I believe it.

Thomas Rawls possesses his own unique running style, and skill set, one which lends itself nicely to breaking big runs and to being a feature back.
I like to describe Rawls as a pin ball, he gets his pad level low, which helps to protect the ball, (I don't foresee him ever having a fumble problem because of that) and hits the hole FAST, then as he is going through the hole, with his low pad level, he tends to sort of bounce off would be tacklers, he doesn't seem to get hit squarely very often, and he keeps his very powerful legs churning all the time, which enables him to sort of bounce his way forward for extra yards. Once wrapped up, he almost always seems to fall forward, or break the tackle and get the extra yards.
He has a very quick first step, and gets to his top speed quickly. He's able to get to and through holes very quickly, more quickly than Lynch did. His top end speed, which looks to me to be just a wee bit faster in his top gear, than Lynch's top speed, combined with a very fluid spin move, will help him break big runs.
He has some similarities to Lynch, in that he has the strength to break tackles, and seems to run with ferocity and determination, but he isn't the straight up monster that Lynch is when it comes to dishing out punishment to defenders. While he doesn't have Lynch's ability to stop instantly, or Lynch's insane balance, (owing to his wide stance), or his upper body strength and stiff arm, Rawls does himself have very good balance, as is demonstrated by his pin ball running style, and even more by his spin move.
Rawl's ability to spin quickly, with enough force to shed defenders, and then immediately upon completion of the rotation, resume his previous course at nearly top speed, is a very impressive bit of athletic running. I can guarantee you that we will see more than a few BIG runs broken because of that.

My prediction (this is a seriously strong take, but I am convinced it's true) is that, IF he stays with the team, and IF he can stay reasonably healthy, he will finish his career as the Seahawks best ever RB.
I think that Rawls will start as early as next year, to make people get over Lynch and a few seasons from now, people will be talking about him as one of the best we've ever had here.
I am convinced beyond any doubt that he possesses the skills necessary to be a legitimate SUPERSTAR, one who could consistently lead the league in rushing.
His rookie season was no fluke!

by **obiken** » Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:47 am

Your right Monkster, I guess I just loved Warner, what he brought at the goal line and out of the backfield as a receiver. Who would be 4th? Warren??

by **Hawktawk** » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:03 am

My prediction (this is a seriously strong take, but I am convinced it's true) is that, IF he stays with the team, and IF he can stay reasonably healthy, he will finish his career as the Seahawks best ever RB.
I think that Rawls will start as early as next year, to make people get over Lynch and a few seasons from now, people will be talking about him as one of the best we've ever had here.
I am convinced beyond any doubt that he possesses the skills necessary to be a legitimate SUPERSTAR, one who could consistently lead the league in rushing.

I agree with much of what you said about Rawls in terms of his ability to play last season. He was the most electrifying blend of quickness, speed, and power I've seen in the Seahawks uniform. The first time I laid eyes on him I felt the same way as I did about Russ. Too good to be true. Well in Rawls case it was. I believe Seattle would still be playing if that dude was lugging the rock last Sunday.

The problem is he tore ligaments and broke the bone in his ankle. Its a gruesome injury for a RB and he may never be quite the guy he was last year. I hope he is...

by **NorthHawk** » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:09 am

Ligaments are always more of a concern than broken bones, and ankles can be very troublesome.
I'm not convinced Rawls even if healthy will have the same impact Lynch had. It seems a lot of RBs explode on the scene then fade back to being just solid or even less. I hope that's not the case with him, and I do see the potential as others do, but half a season or thereabouts is barely enough to make any solid predictions.
A great deal depends on how well the OL progresses and if the play calling takes advantage of his style of running.

by **savvyman** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:46 am

Shaun is the most overrated running back of all time Monkey - Pete & John would have shown his soft running, dance, dance, dance, falling to the ground to avoid a tackle rear end to the door if their paths had ever crossed - - try to deal with it.

by **Hawktawk** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:23 am

savvyman wrote:Shaun is the most overrated running back of all time Monkey - Pete & John would have shown his soft running, dance, dance, dance, falling to the ground to avoid a tackle rear end to the door if their paths had ever crossed - - try to deal with it.

I'm not so sure that PC would have been unable to work with SA.The whole team SA played on in the Holmgren era was a soft finesse team. The beef is legit about running soft, tripping over the 50 or running out of bounds.Two of the greatest collapses in team history Ravens in 2003 and Rams at home in 2004 were very much about SA taking dives in short yardage situations rather than take on a Mike LB, Ray Lewis in Baltimore BTW.He wasn't a good pass blocker and was a mediocre reciever.

But that was all between the 20's Savvy. Alexander scored 29 TD's in 2005. The man had a knack in the red zone. And sure he had a great line like most HOF backs did as well but he was one of the more patient runners Ive ever seen, setting up his blocks perfectly. He was smooth in his prime and faster than he looked as well.

Yeah SA had some blemishes. Still he was a great Hawk in his own right.His numbers speak for themselves.

by **monkey** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:33 am

I deal in facts Savvyman, not hyperbole, and the facts say that Alexander was a TERRIFIC running back for this team for a long time. You can blindly hate all you want, but you can never change the ACTUAL FACTS of what happened, no matter what lenses you view them through.

Career stats
CAR 2,187
YDS 9,453
AVG 4.3
TDS 100

In 2005 he had one of the great rushing seasons ever. That's a fact. Inarguable FACT.

by **PTHawker** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:15 am

I like both runners, but I don't think you can compare them.

Warner when he broke in, was a absolute monster behind a very mediocre team.. It wasn't until Warner broke in, that the Hawks started to enjoy some success.
Unfortunately his true potential as a NFL back was never realized due to injury as previous posters have mentioned.

With everything equal and had Warner never been injured, I'd go with Warner, the guy was simply electric.

As it is now, you have to go with Lynch, he's been everything and more for us, you cannot ask a player for anything more.

Just my 2C.

by **RiverDog** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:30 am

I agree with you about comparing the 3. They are all from different eras, played for different coaches, and were asked to do different things.

I don't have a link to the story, but according to JS, Lynch is "leaning towards retiring", so it might not be too long before we're talking about him in the past tense.

by **NorthHawk** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:30 pm

As the days go by it's looking less and less that Lynch will be in Seahawk Blue this year.
He might wait it out and get cut in order to collect a few million $, then maybe take a discount for his local team in Oakland if they want to add some attitude at the RB position.
It won't seem the same without him, though and I think he's one of the pillars of our success in the Carroll era.

by **savvyman** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:07 pm

monkey wrote:I deal in facts Savvyman, not hyperbole, and the facts say that Alexander was a TERRIFIC running back for this team for a long time. You can blindly hate all you want, but you can never change the ACTUAL FACTS of what happened, no matter what lenses you view them through.

Career stats
CAR 2,187
YDS 9,453
AVG 4.3
TDS 100

In 2005 he had one of the great rushing seasons ever. That's a fact. Inarguable FACT.

Yes but Shaun also finished Last in YAC (Yards After Contact) with a career total of 0.

He did however finish first in YLBC (Yards Lost Before Contact) ..........

by **savvyman** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:10 pm

Hawktawk wrote:
I'm not so sure that PC would have been unable to work with SA.The whole team SA played on in the Holmgren era was a soft finesse team. The beef is legit about running soft, tripping over the 50 or running out of bounds.Two of the greatest collapses in team history Ravens in 2003 and Rams at home in 2004 were very much about SA taking dives in short yardage situations rather than take on a Mike LB, Ray Lewis in Baltimore BTW.He wasn't a good pass blocker and was a mediocre reciever.

But that was all between the 20's Savvy. Alexander scored 29 TD's in 2005. The man had a knack in the red zone. And sure he had a great line like most HOF backs did as well but he was one of the more patient runners Ive ever seen, setting up his blocks perfectly. He was smooth in his prime and faster than he looked as well.

Yeah SA had some blemishes. Still he was a great Hawk in his own right.His numbers speak for themselves.

That Offensive Line featuring Walter Jones & Steve Hutchinson might take issue with that statement of being soft & finesse. So might one of the greatest run blocking Full backs to ever play Mack Strong.

by **RiverDog** » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:15 pm

savvyman wrote:That Offensive Line featuring Walter Jones & Steve Hutchinson might take issue with that statement of being soft & finesse. So might one of the greatest run blocking Full backs to ever play Mack Strong.

No argument there. That was without a doubt the best offensive line in team history and Mack Strong was an awesome lead blocker. But those facts shouldn't be used to discount Shaun Alexander's accomplishments. He deserves to be in the conversation.

by **Vegaseahawk** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:30 am

Haushka or Herrera?
Easley or Chancellor?
Fredd Young or Lofa Tatupu?
Jacob Green or Michael Bennett?
Don't get me started....

by **obiken** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 1:12 am

Vegaseahawk wrote:Haushka or Herrera?
Easley or Chancellor?
Fredd Young or Lofa Tatupu?
Jacob Green or Michael Bennett?
Don't get me started....

Herrera, as a mascot.
Easley, by far. Kam is great but Ken hit like he was shot out of a gun.
Lofta, but its very close.
Close but Bennett has surpassed him.

Anybody else VG??

Okung or Walter Jones? Duh let me think!

by **obiken** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:35 am

Dave Brown, or Sherman? That's actually tough call but I would go Brown.
Best Center
Blair Bush.

by **savvyman** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:21 am

obiken wrote:Dave Brown, or Sherman? That's actually tough call but I would go Brown.
Best Center
Blair Bush.

No - Sherman is already our greatest Cornerback of all time - and as I mentioned first a couple years ago - will be a great NFL coach one day - and maybe even for the Seahawks in about 10 years?

Curt Warner was never the same after he blew his knee out - but before that? - He was an electrifying runner who cut so sharply that defenders were constantly tripping over their own feet.

Shaun Alexander could never gain any yards on his own - his success is 100% correlated to the size of the holes that his offensive lineman and Mack Strong opened for him - and in 2005 those holes were so big that the old, crooked, Hillary Clinton could have gotten a 1000 yards rushing that year......

by **c_hawkbob** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:46 am

Haushka or Herrera? Haushka
Easley or Chancellor? Kenny
Fredd Young or Lofa Tatupu? Lofa
Jacob Green or Michael Bennett? Jacob

Don't get me started....

Why not? This is fun.

Dave Brown, or Sherman? Sherm
Best Center Just for fun I'll go Tobeck

by **Hawktawk** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:53 am

That Offensive Line featuring Walter Jones & Steve Hutchinson might take issue with that statement of being soft & finesse. So might one of the greatest run blocking Full backs to ever play Mack Strong.

Nobody questions the physicality of those men. May I add in Joe Jura Vicious. May I also point out that following the Superbowl meltdown in a yellow blizzard Jury and Hutch hightailed it out of town. I will never forget the look on Hutchinson's face staring down at SAs outstretched hand sitting on the ground waiting for a hand up after a play and walking past him to the huddle looking pissed. If we had that left side on this team we might never lose.

The soft finesse aspect of those guys, successful as they were came from the top. Vanilla bend but dont break defenses and a pass first to set up the run mentality. They were weak on the road, extremely weak on the road vs good teams and never won a road playoff game. Of the 3 golden eras of Seahawks football, Carroll, Knox, and Holmgren I rank those Holmgren teams #3 in terms of toughness and resiliency.

so in other words,,,,,,,,
Knox or
Holmy?
Who is #2 in Seattle..

by **RiverDog** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:07 am

Blair Bush was probably the best center, but he wasn't with us that long. Tobeck was in on our first SB run, also offenses became more complex, dependent on the center's mental game more than in the past. More apples and oranges.

No way can you compare today's place kickers to Herrera or Norm Johnson. Place kicking has improved almost exponentially over what it was 20-30 years ago, so much so that they keep changing the rules to make it more difficult or to discourage trying them. I wouldn't be surprised if they narrow them some day. Herrera is best remembered for his role in fakes, especially the one on our first MNF vs. the Falcons. I can remember it as if it happened yesterday. Put all 3 of those guys together and Hauschka would out kick the other two. I'm willing to bet that for the majority of franchises, that their best all time kicker was someone that has played within the past 10 years.

Anytime we start comparing players from the past, we have to recognize that the game has changed and thus the expectations out of the various positions have changed with it. Football is perhaps the most dynamic sport on the American scene.

by **PTHawker** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:37 am

Blade or ADB - ADB

by **Hawk Sista** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:58 am

Holmgren is #2. We were winners under him after a full decade of mediocrity. Like, love or hate him- he should be respected as an important part of our past. Just like Shaun should. He was a beautiful runner. A glider. A TD machine. Until Beast Mode came along he was the consistently best RB in franchise history.

I hated the criticism of him then, and I hate reading it now. As if it's easy w/ any line to be the MVP for the season. Would Marshawn do well with Walt, Hutch, Robbie, Chris, Lock.... Yeah - no doubt. But so did Shaun!!!!! He deserves more respect than he gets. To call a guy a wimp for avoiding what amounts to a car crash is not something I'm willing to do. We needed him healthy.

And while we are talking, I don't much care for the conversation about Marshawn lately. Like he's a pain in the ass and yesterday's news. (Some in here, but mostly other places). Marshawn helped define the toughness of the current Seahawks. He's likely finished here - and he deserves respect as do SA, Holmgren etc.

I'd likely choose Beast Mode as a rookie, but understand Bob's consideration for SA. He was a team player who produced. Marshawn has been one of my faves of all time. Not just Seahawks, but running backs in the NFL. If indeed he is gone, hats off and THANK YOU!

by **NorthHawk** » Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:35 am

I agree with you about Marshawn.
I think he's one of the biggest building blocks for the success of this team.
It's his toughness and never quit attitude that everyone else fed off of earlier that set the tone and gave the whole team an identity.
I don't think that can ever be overstated. Mindset is crucial and I think we might miss him in the years to come if he does leave.

Centers? I think if Max Unger was on the team with Walt and Hutch, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think he is as technically sound and athletic as Bush or Tobeck, but with more power. Considering his linemates here were often average at best, we got the most out of them and we saw just how important that position is early this year.

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