Hats Off To the Panthers.

[Agent 86]

So much more talk on this today on Morning Men..and now Schein on Sports, it's the lead story.

The overwhelming opinion, and I mean overwhelming, is Cam Newton is everything right with the game, and anyone "hating" on him just doesn't get it, or is holding onto something they shouldn't be.

Race is being mentioned, this seems to be the hot topic. Saying if this were Brady/Rodgers who acted this way or had this kind of past, people wouldn't even be discussing it.

Hey, I am just letting you know what I am hearing, this is not my opinion. But we get this convo started a couple days before it has become one of the most talked about topics on sports radio.

[RiverDog]

Race is being mentioned, this seems to be the hot topic. Saying if this were Brady/Rodgers who acted this way or had this kind of past, people wouldn't even be discussing it.

Hey, I am just letting you know what I am hearing, this is not my opinion. But we get this convo started a couple days before it has become one of the most talked about topics on sports radio.

And I say horse pucky to that nonsense. I get tired of people playing the race card with no evidence whatsoever other than their own speculation.

[NorthHawk]

The only problem I have with Newton is his TD celebration. It just goes on too long.
Do a little dance if you want, give the ball to a kid in the stands, then get the hell off the field.
There's a game to be played.

[c_hawkbob]

Race is being mentioned, this seems to be the hot topic. Saying if this were Brady/Rodgers who acted this way or had this kind of past, people wouldn't even be discussing it.

And I say horse pucky to that nonsense. I get tired of people playing the race card with no evidence whatsoever other than their own speculation.

I agree Dog. Gastineau was much more reviled than Cam for his sack dances and it had nothing to do with his race.

And I also agree with North, the only issue I have with it at all is that he draws it out a bit too long for comfort.

[RiverDog]

I agree Dog. Gastineau was much more reviled than Cam for his sack dances and it had nothing to do with his race.

Oh, yea, Mark Gastineau. Part of the New York Sack Exchange. I thought he was a jerk. One coach said that if offensive linemen danced every time they did their jobs that it would look like a disco out there.

It seems to me that this isn't the first time that the race card has been played either by Cam or his defenders. Was it because of the alleged comments by a ref that he had not yet earned the benefit of the doubt when a PF penalty was not called on his opponent for a late hit? That accusation as well was based on nothing but pure speculation.

A number of us came out against Tim Tebow when he patented his TD celebration, and I, for one, have come out strongly against Johnny Football for his antics. I don't know about you guys, but I get damn tired of having to prove that I'm not a racist every time some jack wagon (or their surrogates) has no other recourse but turn to race to defend themselves. It doesn't help Cam's popularity, it diminishes it.

[Agent 86]

I am actually shocked that "race" was even mentioned, let alone being the main reason these sports talk hosts are saying is the issue. Schein spent at least his first hour on this topic taking calls. He can be quite over the top if you listen to him, so I think he influences alot of listeners opinions.

I certainly never even thought "race" played a role in anyone's opinion on here, seems to me that is the topic being discussed because it has the most effect and promotes calls and ratings. Shame on them for using it.

But they are just playing off what Cam himself said in his interview yesterday.



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000628988/article/cam-newton-no-one-changed-me-im-true-to-my-roots

[Hawk Sista]

I am as certain as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow that this will be a wildly unpopular post. I actually understand when someone of color thinks that certain reactions/treatment is race related, even if it happens not be the case in that situation. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.... and sometimes it is both. While I believe that there are indeed times when people claim race is at the heart of something just to throw gasoline on a hotly burning fire, I also think that racism is pervasive (though sometimes very subtle) and bigotry is felt by a lot of us on a fairly regular basis.... a point that most white males will miss, I am sure.

As a gay woman, I can tell you that I have experienced first hand (this week even) bigotry, different treatment, jokes made about me in the work place etc... I know quite factually that I have been treated/perceived differently than my stale/male/pale colleagues when my actions are similar. Certain actions have been assigned to my gender or orientation rather than to me as a leader and decision maker. And looks that we get when out with a group of female friends can be hurtful. So even when someone could be looking at me thinking I love her hair, or that's a great suit...it feels to me like there is judgment there because I have dealt with it for so long.

More to the point - one of my very bests friends is a tall black male. I have personally witnessed the looks he gets, the different treatment, people assuming we are a couple and letting us know it isn't cool, women moving their purse to the opposite shoulder, the manager in ritzy areas asking me if I am ok...EVERY time we are together, we laugh at some such thing. When this is your experience day in and day out, one begins to feel differently about the world in which they live. I'm guessing most of you have not had to sit your teenage son down and say "look, even if you did not do anything - say yes sir and keep your hands visible at all times." If you think these are exaggerations, ask your black friends about their experiences and see which of them says NONE of the above has happened to them.

For me, the irritation with Cam is less severe than it is for others but for me it boils down to the position he plays. Right or wrong, QBs have traditionally played a different public role; Cam is stretching people's comfort level for the actions of a QB. I think he is cocky and irritating, but I think half the league (and people on our own team) suffer the same traits... irrespective of color. And while your personal disdain for him may be all action related, don't be fooled into thinking that the motivation for other's disdain is not at all related to race. It may not be the overriding reason, but it's all mixed in there. Schein likely has stories of his own... Ask your Jewish friends about that too.

[Agent 86]

Well said Sis. I'm pretty open minded and take everyone's opinions in and respect them.

I guess for me I am shocked that race got brought up because I don't think that way, and it's hard for me to imagine someone being like that. I know that's a naïve thought. And I truly believe the posters who have answered in this thread who are anti-Cam are the same. But we all know it's out there. As I was listening this morning, I thought these sports hosts guys were crazy to bring it up, but I was unaware at the time of Cam's interview and what he had said to open this can of worms up.

I'll just say I think Cam Newton, this year, has been great for the game of football. His enthusiasm and leadership has shone through and I truly appreciate him not only for the athlete he is, but for the person he seems to have grown into. Man, he is a force, and when we play Carolina now with the Wilson vs Newton factor, it is gonna fun to watch. I'll tell ya what though, I still wouldn't trade RW3 for any other QB in the league, no way, no how.

Maybe we can start talking about Josh Norman now??...lol....he kinda reminds me of Sherm about 3 years ago......

[Hawk Sista]

I Appreciate the response. I was worried I'd be ridden out on a rail w/ that post. I believe with all that's in me that people don't think there is a racial component. However big, small or non-existent it is depends on the person forming the opinion. But it is there. Thanks for being open minded.

[RiverDog]

I Appreciate the response. I was worried I'd be ridden out on a rail w/ that post. I believe with all that's in me that people don't think there is a racial component. However big, small or non-existent it is depends on the person forming the opinion. But it is there. Thanks for being open minded.

No worries here, Sis. You already know how I feel.

[c_hawkbob]

I am as certain as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow that this will be a wildly unpopular post. I actually understand when someone of color thinks that certain reactions/treatment is race related, even if it happens not be the case in that situation. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.... and sometimes it is both. While I believe that there are indeed times when people claim race is at the heart of something just to throw gasoline on a hotly burning fire, I also think that racism is pervasive (though sometimes very subtle) and bigotry is felt by a lot of us on a fairly regular basis.... a point that most white males will miss, I am sure.

As a gay woman, I can tell you that I have experienced first hand (this week even) bigotry, different treatment, jokes made about me in the work place etc... I know quite factually that I have been treated/perceived differently than my stale/male/pale colleagues when my actions are similar. Certain actions have been assigned to my gender or orientation rather than to me as a leader and decision maker. And looks that we get when out with a group of female friends can be hurtful. So even when someone could be looking at me thinking I love her hair, or that's a great suit...it feels to me like there is judgment there because I have dealt with it for so long.

More to the point - one of my very bests friends is a tall black male. I have personally witnessed the looks he gets, the different treatment, people assuming we are a couple and letting us know it isn't cool, women moving their purse to the opposite shoulder, the manager in ritzy areas asking me if I am ok...EVERY time we are together, we laugh at some such thing. When this is your experience day in and day out, one begins to feel differently about the world in which they live. I'm guessing most of you have not had to sit your teenage son down and say "look, even if you did not do anything - say yes sir and keep your hands visible at all times." If you think these are exaggerations, ask your black friends about their experiences and see which of them says NONE of the above has happened to them.

For me, the irritation with Cam is less severe than it is for others but for me it boils down to the position he plays. Right or wrong, QBs have traditionally played a different public role; Cam is stretching people's comfort level for the actions of a QB. I think he is cocky and irritating, but I think half the league (and people on our own team) suffer the same traits... irrespective of color. And while your personal disdain for him may be all action related, don't be fooled into thinking that the motivation for other's disdain is not at all related to race. It may not be the overriding reason, but it's all mixed in there. Schein likely has stories of his own... Ask your Jewish friends about that too.

I'm not sure what you thought would be so offensive about that post Sis. You make some very valid points. The thing about being black or gay or a woman or an Indian or autistic or whatever it is about yourself that you feel sets you apart from those around you is that where ever you go you are still that (black or gay etc.) you are sensitized to those around you that react differently to you than you see them react to others, and it will be that way for your entire life.

Thing is, people tend to ascribe these differences in the perceptions of others to everyone around them, not just to those that do in fact react to them differently, and it's not fair to those of us for whom such distinctions really and truly do not define how we perceive or treat them. There is nothing we can do or say to change the perception beyond treating those individuals exactly the same as we would treat anyone else and unfortunately that will never be enough, because there will still be the perception of the person of whatever minority that they are not being treated the same because there will always be other people in their lives that do still treat them differently.

I am not personally unfamiliar with this dynamic: my oldest daughter has married two black men (at different times of course) and I have three beautiful mixed race grandchildren, and my favorite Aunt was gay (she passed on, she didn't stop being gay) and I have always made friends easily with people of diverse backgrounds.

The only problem I had at all with your post was your reference to "most white males" as the root of the problem. It is no more fair for you to paint us with the same brush than it is to so paint any other group. I think more of "us" may have moved past it than you realize and that we are seriously longing for that word "US" to include everyone in our lives rather than just those that are the same race/sex/creed/age etc.

[Hawktawk]

I've so had it up to my eyeballs with the race card. Its to the point where these whining moaning blacks have nobody but themselves to blame for the negative perceptions others may have of them. Their overselling of their grievances is insulting to the struggles of those who have truly experienced institutional racism. America has come a long way. Blacks have gone from the back of the bus to the front and now they want whites and every other non black ethnicity to sit in the back or get off the bus. F em.

Newton is so full of it. When he talks about being a black QB and there's nothing to compare him to that's the #1 lie. The guy wearing 3 in Seattle is a special black QB with similar skills who flips the ball to the refs, points at the sky and runs back to the sidelines. Oh and BTW lots of people don't like Brady's over the top antics and general persona either and last I checked he is as white as they come. Newton is a jackass, plain and simple and that disorder has no racial boundaries.

Hopefully the Denver D will keep him from doing his ridiculous childish dance.

[RiverDog]

Wow, this thread sure has gone off on a tangent. Not a problem with me, though.

If Newton was a little better citizen, his (or his surrogates) complaints about his current behavior being race related might be a little more credible, but his behavior has been questionable to say the least. He got a freebie from the court when he got caught stealing a lap top computer while at Florida and as most of us that follow college football are aware, there was some extremely shady dealings when his father allegedly was trying to sell his services to the highest bidder after Newton suddenly decided to transfer from Flordia, shady enough that it got him temporarily suspended by the NCAA and attracted the attention of the FBI. The only reason Newton got re-instated was that there was no proof that Cam knew about his father's illegal activity. Cam's college career had the smell of a rotten fish.

I hear ya about the expectations of a quarterback's behavior being at a higher standard than players at other positions, however, Cam is far from being the first QB that has had this WR air about them. Joe Namath, Jeff George, Jim McMahan, Ryan Leaf, and more recently, Johnny Manziel. Those are just a few of the names of those that were at various times a bit of a prima donna. Even John Elway was reviled in Seattle after he emphatically spiked a ball after scoring a touchdown that led to endless mockings of him that lasted for years....ELLLLL Wayyyyyyy.

Cam has received several huge breaks along the way, from the courts and from the NCAA/FBI. He has no basis to complain about his treatment and I would consider it a personal insult if anyone were to accuse my sentiments as being race related.

[EmeraldBullet]

If an opposing teams player stole my property and destroyed it I would pursue legal action. Just saying...

[RiverDog]

If an opposing teams player stole my property and destroyed it I would pursue legal action. Just saying...

That's what was threatened by the Packers fan that had his banner stolen from him by Cam. The Panthers were quick to replace it. Even UPS came to the party and gave the guy a new, larger banner. Oddly enough, the Panthers have a policy against opposing teams' fans from hanging their signs or banners in the stadium, so they were not obligated to reimburse the Cheesehead the $500 he paid to have the banner made. That sounds like an odd policy to have, banning specific teams while allowing home team banners. I see #12's in visiting team stadiums all the time. I wonder about the legality of that policy as there facility is almost certainly partially funded with public money and if like Seattle's, operated by a public facilities district. Seems like a freedom of speech issue.

I'm not so sure how the 12th man flag got into Cam's hands. Some say that a Panther fan gave it to him. I wonder how the Panther's fan came into possession of it? Regardless, it was an immature act, very unsportsmanlike, and unless I missed something, I never heard any apology or sense of remorse from Cam about either incident. It just gives me another reason not to like that turkey.

[HumanCockroach]

I'm not entirely sure it was a Seahawks fan that started the ban. IMHO this was started by someone that has issues with the team and it's fans to make us look stupid... Either way, I don't respect players that were good ( note did not use the word great here) 1 out of 5 seasons, sulks when things aren't bouncing his way, acts entitled, and has on different occasions flipped fans off, stuck his tongue out at fans etc.

Truth is until he improves ( or at least maintains) his level of play from this season, he's Michael Vick or Randall Cunningham, RGIII or any other example of a great "athlete" that can throw, nothing more.

Truth is he isn't mechanically sound, or a very good QB, he has a Canon for an arm, but obviously refuses to work on his footwork. I credit the OC for his resurgent year ( does anyone remember the discussion of how the Panthers might be better off NOT resigning Cam this off-seastheon?).. Never been one enamored with QBs that don't work on ALL facets of their game, and Newton continues to throw off his Back foot to this day ( after 5 years in the league).

[mykc14]

I am actually shocked that "race" was even mentioned, let alone being the main reason these sports talk hosts are saying is the issue. Schein spent at least his first hour on this topic taking calls. He can be quite over the top if you listen to him, so I think he influences alot of listeners opinions.

I certainly never even thought "race" played a role in anyone's opinion on here, seems to me that is the topic being discussed because it has the most effect and promotes calls and ratings. Shame on them for using it.

But they are just playing off what Cam himself said in his interview yesterday.



http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000628988/article/cam-newton-no-one-changed-me-im-true-to-my-roots

This has really turned into an interesting thread. IMO it really does go back to this article that Agent 86 posted a few days ago. There wasn't a huge debate about his race among talk show hosts and fans until this quote by Cam himself:

"“I’m an African-American quarterback that may scare a lot of people because they haven’t seen nothing they can compare me to”

I have debated Cam with a lot of my friends (white, black, asian, hispanic) and there were a ton of mixed feelings, but not one time was race mentioned at all. Not in the least bit (and we actually discuss racial issues a lot so if it were on anybody's mind there is no doubt it would have been shared). In a lot of ways a quote like this makes me feel like Cam is using it as an attention getter, almost like he was expecting this major reaction to the fact that he is black. I never even thought to look or think about how many black quarterbacks are starting in the NFL right now, but I imagine it is around 10 or so. This quote makes it seem like he thinks he is the first black QB. 4 of the 6 Pro Bowl QB's this year are black. If it were about race then why aren't Bridgewater, RW, Taylor, or Winston answering questions like Cam at the pro-bowl. This is about his history in college and on field act as a pro, that is it. I am not naïve enough to think that racism is gone in our country or that there aren't some people out there who don't like Cam because he is black, but those people also have a problem with Bridgewater, RW, Taylor, Winston, and any other black QB out there. The other black QB's aren't as polarizing because they aren't taking a 'look at me and how great I am' 10 second celebration every time they get a first down (for me the Superman TD celebration is slightly annoying but I don't mind it as much because a TD is a much bigger deal than a first down. I don't like that his celebration is all about him though, but whatever). Show me a white QB who has the same 'look at me' diva persona and I will show you a polarizing player.

[Hawk Sista]

The only problem I had at all with your post was your reference to "most white males" as the root of the problem. It is no more fair for you to paint us with the same brush than it is to so paint any other group. I think more of "us" may have moved past it than you realize and that we are seriously longing for that word "US" to include everyone in our lives rather than just those that are the same race/sex/creed/age etc.

BOB

I agree. I have seen an evolution in the past several years and you make excellent points. I should not have generalized like that. More fair would be to say that there are those individuals who will never get why someone would have the perception that a situation is race (or gender or other) related because of the sum total of all their experiences. Most folks in here have reasonable responses - though clearly not all. I stand edited.

[c_hawkbob]

BOB

I agree. I have seen an evolution in the past several years and you make excellent points. I should not have generalized like that. More fair would be to say that there are those individuals who will never get why someone would have the perception that a situation is race (or gender or other) related because of the sum total of all their experiences. Most folks in here have reasonable responses - though clearly not all. I stand edited.

You know I love you Sis.

[Hawk Sista]

[Hawktawk]

Post by RiverDog » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:30 am
Wow, this thread sure has gone off on a tangent. Not a problem with me, though.

If Newton was a little better citizen, his (or his surrogates) complaints about his current behavior being race related might be a little more credible, but his behavior has been questionable to say the least. He got a freebie from the court when he got caught stealing a lap top computer while at Florida and as most of us that follow college football are aware, there was some extremely shady dealings when his father allegedly was trying to sell his services to the highest bidder after Newton suddenly decided to transfer from Florida, shady enough that it got him temporarily suspended by the NCAA and attracted the attention of the FBI. The only reason Newton got re-instated was that there was no proof that Cam knew about his father's illegal activity. Cam's college career had the smell of a rotten fish.

Exactly RD. Newton had red flags all over him and got drafted #1.This year Jamies Winston with even more red flags went #1 35 year ago Warren Moon had no flags beyond race and went undrafted which was absolute racism.Ill recopy what i said earlier and address it.These comments were over the top and I apologize to anyone who may have been offended.

I've so had it up to my eyeballs with the race card. Its to the point where these whining moaning blacks have nobody but themselves to blame for the negative perceptions others may have of them. Their overselling of their grievances is insulting to the struggles of those who have truly experienced institutional racism. America has come a long way. Blacks have gone from the back of the bus to the front and now they want whites and every other non black ethnicity to sit in the back or get off the bus. F em.

Im a 56 year old who was raised redneck. Ive come a long way. I have black friends, gay friends, a married lesbian couple who are absolutely awesome. My earlier response is borne out of frustration far beyond Newtons stupid antics and ridiculous assertions of racism. Its about BLM blocking traffic protesting in behalf of gangsters and thugs,and Sharpton railing against injustice while owing 19 million in back taxes. Its a President who has served 7 years and even got rehired for doing a piss poor job who pulls the race card every time.My F em comments are directed at those types of individuals, not any race of people.My feelings probably belong on the OT page but I just had to vent.Ill be quiet now.....

[Hawk Sista]

It was OT and became the T.

I understand your world view, HT. I'm asking you to read the words I wrote and imagine that the management asks you if you need help finding something every time you are in a store that isn't in an all black neighborhood. Looks, moving a purse, locking the door when they look at you. You might just have a chip on your shoulder that was earned. Be careful when you lump people in a group. Thugs? Really - all of them?

Our society has made some strides forward and others straight back. Having a diverse group of friends helps to see people as people and not as black or gay or stale/male/pale bigots. We are human beings, everyone of us. And if you want a lil understanding for being raised a redneck, then you are going to have to seek to understand others lot too.

Have a good day. It's a bummer there is no Seahawk football this week.

[obiken]

I Appreciate the response. I was worried I'd be ridden out on a rail w/ that post. I believe with all that's in me that people don't think there is a racial component. However big, small or non-existent it is depends on the person forming the opinion. But it is there. Thanks for being open minded.

Wow Your first post was a classic!
As a kid, I was a homophobic, I thought gays were a moral, social, and political evil that should be eradicated from the planet. It was just the way I was brought up in the church. However, after 26 years in Corrections, I learned that there are good gays and evil gays. Noble gays and petty gays. They are just like anybody else except their gay. Moreover, I saw a documentary that changed my life as a Christian, it was called: For the bible tells me so. It shows a how a mother ostracized her daughter; they were so close then mommy treated her like an enemy. The Daughter killed herself, now the mom is an advocate for gay rights. That kind of hate is not what God wants.

I have a hard time separating what Dr Edwards calls self expression by black males in sports, and fighting off any feelings of quasi-racism.
However, jerk is just jerk. Whether its Gore Vidal, Bill Buckley, Donald Trump, Ann Coulter, Lush Bimbo, Gregg Hardy, ect.
A jerk by any other name is still a Dick head!

[Hawktawk]

It was OT and became the T.

I understand your world view, HT. I'm asking you to read the words I wrote and imagine that the management asks you if you need help finding something every time you are in a store that isn't in an all black neighborhood. Looks, moving a purse, locking the door when they look at you. You might just have a chip on your shoulder that was earned. Be careful when you lump people in a group. Thugs? Really - all of them?

Our society has made some strides forward and others straight back. Having a diverse group of friends helps to see people as people and not as black or gay or stale/male/pale bigots. We are human beings, everyone of us. And if you want a lil understanding for being raised a redneck, then you are going to have to seek to understand others lot too.

Have a good day. It's a bummer there is no Seahawk football this week.

Thanks Sis. Even as a young man I could understand and see racism existed. Even playing around with the crowd and dropping the N word I knew it was wrong. But we've come so far now as a nation and so have I.

My very crudely stated point regarding BLM is that yes, IMO that particular organization is defending the Micheal Browns of the world and is based on a lie.I'm just as PO'd at the white folks marching in these parades. Its making things worse in this country, particularly when they refuse to address the mass killings of one another in the inner cities, the family disarray that far outstrips any other ethic group.

There are no Rosa Parks, No MLK's carrying the banner anymore.I think they would be very sad to see the opportunity that is being wasted that they paid for in blood sweat and tears.Sharpton and his ilk irritate me so bad I want to reach into the TV and b**** slap them silly. As for the suspicions held by non blacks its as much about the much higher percentage of blacks involved in violent criminal activity in present day America than their percentage of the population as it is latent racism carried over for decades.At a minimum the truth is somewhere in the middle.

My black friends and I have these discussions. We dont always agree but we always learn something and we are always civil and we are all responsible people who get up and work for a living.

Newton is the least of the problem frankly. Hes a young immature jock and just going with the flow which is everything is racism nowadays.He is exercising poor sportsmanship plain and simple and refuses to admit it but he sure hit a hot button.To be fair I was ragging on Sherman in 2013 just as hard. My position has always been STFU and play and Sherm has really matured. Hopefully Cam will too, hes a terrific player and doesn't seem like a bad dude overall.

Obviously we could play the chicken and egg game forever. The thread has spread like an amoeba far away from the topic but it makes this forum kinda cool in a way. Sis I love you and GO HAWKS!!!!

[monkey]

While I appreciate what Sis said, I have to say that I am extremely disappointed in Cam Newton for pulling out the race card to explain why people don't like his celebrations. I'm calling BS!
Between his narcissistic commercials, and his "LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT MEEEEEE, celebrations, I already disliked Newton, but his "race" had absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with it.
It's one thing to be a narcissist, and to make every touchdown, and every commercial all about your own perceived awesomeness, but it's another to be so tone deaf that when people point out that his celebrations smack of narcissism, to claim that it's a racism problem.

I'm a HUGE fan of Russell Wilson, and last I checked he's a black QB, (even if the media wants to claim he's not black enough), I have nothing but respect and admiration for the way he plays the game, and the fact that he's "black" doesn't factor in one way or another. What I admire is his TEAM FIRST attitude, his HUMILITY.
Come to think of it, I've never cared for Aaron Rodgers' stupid "discount double check" celebration either...isn't he "white"?
When I point out that I hate Rogers stupid commercials and his stupid celebration, is that because I am a self-loathing reverse racist?

I disliked Cam's stupid celebrations, and his prideful displays, but now that he's played the race card in order to avoid recognition of the truth that, people don't like his celebrations because they seem arrogantly self promoting, I cannot stand the man! I've just lost ALL respect for him for trying to call me a racist because I don't like his narcissism.

[savvyman]

I think there are two primary reasons why many people dislike Cam.

1. There are a number of people who dislike Cam for acting like a arrogant jerk (no real racism) with his celebrations.

2. And there are a number of people who dislike Cam because he is a Black Man who is not acting "Proper Enough" in a deferential manner and this is a threat to many white men who still expect black men to not act so strong and independently. Fortunately for the world, most of these people will be dieing over the next 30 years.

[RiverDog]

I think there are two primary reasons why many people dislike Cam.

1. There are a number of people who dislike Cam for acting like a arrogant jerk (no real racism) with his celebrations.

2. And there are a number of people who dislike Cam because he is a Black Man who is not acting "Proper Enough" in a deferential manner and this is a threat to many white men who still expect black men to not act so strong and independently. Fortunately for the world, most of these people will be dieing over the next 30 years.

IMO I don't think there are many people in your 2nd category percentage wise, but I have nothing to base that on except for a personal belief. And although I think you are probably correct that a lot of people in that category are from older generations, I wouldn't exempt younger generations from harboring individuals that share those sentiments. There are always going to be those narrow minded individuals that will judge a person simply because they don't look or talk like they do.

I'll add a 3rd category, one I belong in: Many of us had a predetermined dislike for Cam because of some his college football career, that is, getting caught stealing at Florida and most of all, his father's illegal attempt to "sell" Cam to the highest bidder. The events this year, ie the banner/flag thing and later his outrageous playing of the race card, heightened my contempt for him.

Cam's on field celebrations don't bother me, at least not as it relates to him specifically. I have more of a problem with Beast's crotch grab and Baldwin's crapping a football than I do with Cam's celebrating a first down or his Superman routine. I never have been a fan of in game "look at me" celebrations as I feel that they are contrary to the team concept and would rather that all players adapt Russell Wilson and Steve Largent's philosophy by "acting like you've been there before", but I've come to accept them and don't use them as a means to personally dislike any player, including Cam. You've never heard me express a lot of objections to celebrations, even to Beast's and Baldwin's rather vulgar and crude celebrations, and not j/b they're Seahawks.

[RiverDog]

Speaking of on field celebrations, the one I thought was the funniest and most appropriate even though it was a bit on the vulgar side and he did get fined for it, was Randy Moss's fake moon in Lambeau Field, after I heard an explanation as to why he did it.

It seems that one of the Cheeseheads traditional welcoming of the visiting team's bus includes numerous fans "mooning" the bus. Moss was only giving back what he had received from the fans.

[Hawktawk]

I'll add a 3rd category, one I belong in: Many of us had a predetermined dislike for Cam because of some his college football career, that is, getting caught stealing at Florida and most of all, his father's illegal attempt to "sell" Cam to the highest bidder. The events this year, ie the banner/flag thing and later his outrageous playing of the race card, heightened my contempt for him.

I check box #1 and #3. #3 makes me and a lot of people look much more harshly on #1. As for option 2 its a bunch of self loathing white man gobbledygook that refers to very few people. Irritated by a jackass acting like fool who happens to be black is irritated, not threatened.

[Hawk Sista]

I wish you were right. But #2 exists.

[RiverDog]

I wish you were right. But #2 exists.

I don't think anyone has suggested that #2 doesn't exist. The only question is to what extent.

And BTW, not that you said it does, but it's not just a bunch of older white males that fall within #2. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and women of all color all harbor narrow minded individuals. I bristle at the suggestion that it's only individuals from my demographical group that compose racists and sexists.

[Hawktawk]

Hawk Sista"]I wish you were right. But #2 exists.[/quote] #2 is the totally PC reason for a perfectly PC apologist to give. Are there white and other ethnic people who think blacks should be picking cotton? Unfortunately yes, just like there are blacks who feel other blacks lives don't matter unless killed by a white cop. These are both extreme minorities in each ethnic group I would imagine. BUT THATS NOT WHAT THIS IS ABOUT!!!!!!!

As I've said repeatedly raising the race card in the context of Cam Newton doing anything under the sun is RIDICULOUS. How does he threaten anyone? He threatens my teams dominance but that would be true if he were white, Hispanic or Asian as well. Strong black men (many of them NFL QBs) and women have been doing things for decades that are much more significant than a self aggrandizing jackass doing his stupid drawn out TD dance or (far worse)physically harassing fans who paid thousands to watch the game. Then he drops the race card instead of growing up.

Yeah that's right up there with MLK and Rosa Parks isn't it? Spare me......

[Hawk Sista]

I have heard what you have said. You have said nothing new these last few posts. Just because you think it is ridiculous does not make it so.... it makes it your opinion and in my opinion, we probably should quit this discussion or move it into the OT category as you suggested earlier.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a single objective reality. Every man, woman and child (of every color and religion) comes to know through his/her own unique set of circumstances and experiences. You call #2 "a totally PC reason for a PC apologist" - which I assume you are calling me... so be it. In general, I disagree with your premise and your very easily lumping me into a sea full of PC apologists... I know there is nothing I could possibly do or say to get you to move off of your position and you must also know there is nothing you can do or say to change my set of experiences that make up my version of reality....which is that I see overt, covert, subtle and less subtle examples of what I am trying to say quite often. We will just agree to disagree.

[Hawk Sista]

And BTW, not that you said it does, but it's not just a bunch of older white males that fall within #2. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, and women of all color all harbor narrow minded individuals. I bristle at the suggestion that it's only individuals from my demographical group that compose racists and sexists. River Dog.

Bigotry is not unique to the stale, male and pale, River. I have wrong-headed and bigoted positions too and I am certainly not male (though I do turn 50 this year - Zoiks! ).... There is a pretty significant difference, however, between being a member of the dominant and most powerful demographic in the USofA and being a minority. I would never say that your demographic group is the only one to be bigoted... I would even go so far as to say there isn't a soul alive who truly does not have some racist, sexist, judgmental thoughts. That said, if you really don't get the difference, it's likely not going to happen here. I'm not sure if we agree or disagree, but let's just agree to leave this one here for now.

[RiverDog]

Bigotry is not unique to the stale, male and pale, River. I have wrong-headed and bigoted positions too and I am certainly not male (though I do turn 50 this year - Zoiks! ).... There is a pretty significant difference, however, between being a member of the dominant and most powerful demographic in the USofA and being a minority. I would never say that your demographic group is the only one to be bigoted... I would even go so far as to say there isn't a soul alive who truly does not have some racist, sexist, judgmental thoughts. That said, if you really don't get the difference, it's likely not going to happen here. I'm not sure if we agree or disagree, but let's just agree to leave this one here for now.

I get the difference. But that demographic has been steadily shrinking for the past 40 years, in both size and influence. Many more women are in positions of authority than there were when I got out of college 38 years ago, and with the large influx of immigrants of Hispanics, Asians, eastern Europeans, and Africans, the percentage of Caucasians in our country is smaller than it's ever been. The good ole boys network is quickly becoming a thing of the past.

I think we agree more on this subject than we disagree. I was simply making a point to refute what Savvy said about racism dying with my generation and was looking for your support of my opinion that it runs deeper than just some vestige present only in a bunch of old white rednecks. IMO calling me a racist is about as bad of an insult as a person can levy against me, which is one of the reasons why Cam's playing of the race card got me upset. The guy is as ignorant as they come.

Don't worry about turning 50. It pales in comparison to what I'm facing, ie an impending retirement within a few months. I am reminded what former FSU football coach Bobby Bowden once said, that retirement is the second to last big event in a person's life, and he wasn't looking forward to the last big event.

[NorthHawk]

Changes take time and as the older generation retires and dies off, more opportunities arise for others. One of the benefits of an immigrant society is the intermingling and intermarriages of ethnic and religious groups. Again it will take a while, but that change and the acceptance that will follow is inevitable.

[Hawktawk]

[

I have heard what you have said. You have said nothing new these last few posts. Just because you think it is ridiculous does not make it so.... it makes it your opinion and in my opinion, we probably should quit this discussion or move it into the OT category as you suggested earlier.

In my opinion, there is no such thing as a single objective reality. Every man, woman and child (of every color and religion) comes to know through his/her own unique set of circumstances and experiences. You call #2 "a totally PC reason for a PC apologist" - which I assume you are calling me... so be it. In general, I disagree with your premise and your very easily lumping me into a sea full of PC apologists... I know there is nothing I could possibly do or say to get you to move off of your position and you must also know there is nothing you can do or say to change my set of experiences that make up my version of reality....which is that I see overt, covert, subtle and less subtle examples of what I am trying to say quite often. We will just agree to disagree.

Sis I owe you an apology. That earlier portion of my response was very poorly worded and I wish I had edited it. I'm not lumping anyone with anyone and I immediately afterwards conceded there are a certain number of cretins who are truly racist. But racism cuts both ways these days, maybe more than ever in the last 7 years , which is unfortunate, and which progressives by and large fail to recognize. And dwelling on what's yet to be achieved instead of celebrating how far we've come has become the flavor of the times. Having pro athletes who should be leading the way making claims or racism to defend their on field and post game actions which offend a majority of fans is not helpful Sis.

We will definitely disagree about the importance in the grand scheme of Cams whining about race wile standing near the pinnacle of the sports universe doing his minute long funky chicken dance and ripping banners away from opposing fans.

Id dislike him if he were pink with purple polka dots.

GO DENVER. Its the only way not to have to watch it.
And GO HAWKS!!!!!
And now I am definitely outta here.

[SalmonBB]

My family and I went to the playoff game vs. Carolina. Aside from Cam Newton's throwing of the 12 flag, just about everything I saw in their fans and their team made me think they are a class act all around. One of the only times I've been to an opposing stadium and actually felt welcome. The night after the game and the day after, we felt completely comfortable wearing our Seahawks colors out to eat. All these things, plus seeing our Seahawks come back in the second half ... actually made the trip worth it. What definitely made the trip worthwhile was getting to see my son meet Marshawn Lynch, Jermaine Kearse, Steven Hauschka, and his favorite Seahawk of all time, Lofa Tatupu outside the stadium afterward.

My son is pulling for Carolina in the SB. I kind of feel the same given our great experience in Charlotte, but I'm still a little split. I also think this is going to likely be a blow-out by Carolina, so I guess I just want a good game.

GO SEAHAWKS!!!

[Hawk Sista]

Great story! Thanks for sharing it.

[Hawktawk]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/new ... li=BBnb7Kz

Ok. That's all we want to hear Cam. Kudos for a very well thought out and eloquent speech addressing the controversy and putting the focus where it needs to be, on the game. I feel a lot better about the issue.

But still...
GO DENVER!!!!
So in other words get to Vegas and bet the house on Carolina