British Parliament Tells NFL to Change Redskins Mascot

[c_hawkbob]

That's understood Obi, there are a whole lot of such terms that people used not intending to be offensive and most didn't even know they were offensive until someone spoke up and said something about it.

When I was in the Navy we regularly referred to each other the way Eastwood did in Grand Torino and no one took offense because we were like family (sub sailors more so than most), but we wouldn't call someone we just met those names out of respect (at least until we knew them better).

We also used work terms like 'African engineering' and 'Mexican lathe" ... but when someone speaks up and asks you not to call Brazil nuts "ni**er toes" anymore because it offends them, the gentlemanly thing to do is stop using the term.

It's really no big deal and I have a hard time understanding the push back over it. Grow some vocabules already, find another word. (not you personally Obi, society in general)

[Hawktawk]

Nobody debates the N word, Chink, spic, wop, rag head are racist slurs.Jew? Its what they are but whatever. So is cracker BTW but no protests.Gay slurs are regarded as unacceptable. Christian slurs are not.

But what is the difference between white, black and red? Skin I guess. Its describing the same thing, skin color. I think its a legitimate debate whether this is in fact a slur, certainly as it is intended and used by Skins fans it isnt intended to be at all. Quite the contrary.
In the context of how its used by the Redskins organization the logo is a well done portrait that looks like Geronimo or some other great Indian leader of lore. They have done the name pretty proud with a couple of world championships and regard it as an honor to the Indian heritage.

This is hardly Rosa Parks sitting in the back of the bus. Its not Selma.It isn't racist. Its American. Get over it.

[burrrton]

If I really need to explain that the term "redskin" has hateful origins, then I guess I'm just not going to see eye to eye w/ the someone who can't see it.

You know why I don't "see" it, Sis? I read it, and I suggest you should, too. [edit- your third quote below notwithstanding]

[edit2- skip any article that tells you there is NO derogatory history, and skip any article that tells you there is NOTHING BUT derogatory history- predictably, reality is somewhere in the middle on this]

I just can't comprehend why anyone needs to have the term "redskin"

*Needs*? Agreed- I can't, either. I'd have probably changed it. It's shallow at best and wouldn't have been worth my time fighting over it as owner.

It's so bizarre, really and not worth my time to research factoids about the origin of a clearly bigoted mascot

Your position makes more sense now.

Native Americans in my area are outraged by the term - that's enough for me

It would probably be enough for me, too. I consider the fight over this a result of this overly PC culture we're in right now.

[Hawktown]

I would venture to say that plenty of people could make the words "Native American" sound like a slur..... I'm just sayin! People will always find something to be offensive, but there is really no huge reason to fight for this change on either side, IMO.

[Hawktawk]

I don't know, I'm a first generation Swedish immigrant. That Vikings name, you know it suggests raping and pillaging by my ancestors. Maybe Ill start a petition.
Its ridiculous.

[NorthHawk]

There aren't any Vikings around today to offend.

[Hawktawk]

LOL wanna bet with a name like Johanson I think not. See I embrace my heritage

[burrrton]

There aren't any Vikings around today to offend.

I'm not really on board with the analogy (and I think he's just being facetious), but I'm not sure I see why he's no longer a Viking if his ancestors were, and even if he's not a Viking, why the cartoonish portrayal of Vikings should be necessarily less offensive to him just because it's "only" his heritage and not him personally.

I'd wager he'd have just in much in common with his Viking ancestors as your typical Native American 20-year-old working the food court at Wildhorse (reservation casino), who is indistinguishable from my daughters (blondie blueys) in everything except hair color- they talk like fun-loving, goofey kids, listen to the same music, eat the same food, fawn over the same celebrities, etc.

[NorthHawk]

A more apt analogy might be the "Fighting Irish" and their lame mascot, some doofus dressed up like a big leprechaun.

[HumanCockroach]

My dad always used the term "don't Jew me down on this" and he was NOT anti-Semitic.

There's a difference between being racist, and using a racist term Obi.

And I wasn't aware that Vikings were deemed a race. Were they. Always viewed them as more akin to a "tribe" much like Iriquois or Sioux were a "tribe" as opposed to a race.

[kalibane]

At this point I'm honestly not sure who's really not understanding the issue and who's just being glib.

The Vikings is a proper and respectful term, like Spartans or Seminoles. You have people with careers devoted to studying "Viking" culture. You don't open a book to study about Redskins. It's a slang term that became pejorative to a great many people and to them it is attached to borderline genocide, forced relocation and systematic discrimination.

I just don't get why it's so hard for people to be respectful of the fact that a group of people don't want that experience made light of by celebrating that term as a moniker for a sports franchise. It's not about being PC it's about just being respectful to other human beings.

[burrrton]

I'm going to keep playing devil's advocate since I think it's a useful argument to have:

The Vikings is a proper and respectful term, like Spartans or Seminoles.

Great example. Not everyone agrees "Seminoles" is proper and respectful:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... mascots%22

As such, do you think FSU should be forced to change their mascot to be respectful to other human beings? Is there a minimum number/percentage of offended people who you feel should grant veto power over whatever offends them?

It's a slang term that became pejorative to a great many people and to them it is attached to borderline genocide, forced relocation and systematic discrimination.

True, but the relevant question is whether there's a solid basis for that, isn't it? Is it a tacky, shallow term with a mostly harmless but occasionally derogatory past that's been lost to history, or is it an 'N-bomb-level' slur with nothing BUT a violently racist history?

I know some apparently don't want to read anything about it because they 'know what they know' or whatever, but if you *do* read enough about it, it becomes clear it's almost surely the former, while the latter is unsupportable.

[Hawktawk]

These back and forth arguments point out the stupidity of this whole crusade by the #Skinsnamesmatter# crusaders. Stir up a ruckus with some manufactured controversy and pretty soon people who never gave it a second thought are out in the streets protesting.
I agree with the above. By these standards Seminoles. GONE. CHIEFS. SEE YA. BRAVES SYANORA. Every mascot that refers to a human being, race or tribe, Outta here.That includes the Vikings that suddenly offend the hell out of me as a man of Scandinavian heritage.The Cowboys KILLED Redskins. Still do much of the time. And then Peta will come to protest the cruelty of using animal names for such a violent game.

We will all watch the NFL PC's 1 through 32 play flag football in gym shorts since the league concussion protocols have mandated absolutely no contact making pads and helmets irrelevant.

You think I'm joking? I never thought we would see Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump running for President either.

[HumanCockroach]

If a word is offensive to a group of people, it's offensive. What is so Damn hard to comprehend about that? Seriously get off the stupid viking kick. Either that or provide some form of affront to the term Viking. Were Vikings systematically hunted? Enslaved? Did they have bounties on their heads by oppressors? Forced into slavery as a "race" ( which they weren't to begin with)? Had their lands, homes and rights revoked or stolen? Wives and daughters murdered or raped wholesale? No? Then get outta here with that weak argument. Good lord.

[HumanCockroach]

True, but the relevant question is whether there's a solid basis for that, isn't it? Is it a tacky, shallow term with a mostly harmless but occasionally derogatory past that's been lost to history, or is it an 'N-bomb-level' slur with nothing BUT a violently racist history?

Is that a serious statement? It can only be a racist slur if it's coupled with a violent history from the very first? You would be pretty hard pressed to convince my relatives that "wop" wasn't a slur, or my wives family that "mick" is just nothing but a "sometime" derogatory term, my neighbor that "wetback" is nothing but a descriptive term meaning no harm.. Truth is there's a LOT of slurs that aren't and weren't used in that way during the course of history, it doesn't somehow make them "less of a slur" nor something that should be celebrated, marketed and endorsed.

Holy cow, I "felt" people were getting a handle on this stuff, and had moved past the early 19th century when terms of this nature were accepted, used and endorsed in regular society. Guess not.

Unfortunate that some are so far removed from what many live on a daily basis. I honestly pray that some one someday names a team the honkeys or gringos so I can watch a large portion of "white" people's minds explode. Think Beyonce's halftime show times a trillion.... LMFAO.

[burrrton]

Holy cow, I "felt" people were getting a handle on this stuff, and had moved past the early 19th century when terms of this nature were accepted, used and endorsed in regular society. Guess not.

Yes, the people reading available information and reacting accordingly, instead of going on feelz, are the ones stuck in the 1800s.

Unfortunate that some are so far removed from what many live on a daily basis.

Unfortunate that some are so far removed from intellectual rigor.

Grow up, HC. You're a bore. Bye.

[HumanCockroach]

Whatever Burton, I have read about it, and it seems I've also taken into account a large group of people's opinions on it as well. Just because I question your insistence that a slur isn't as "severe" or "severe enough" to be offensive "enough" doesn't mean I'm the one incapable of "reasoned" thought or debate. Truth is, the term is viewed as a slur, whether you feel it's valid or not doesn't make it not one, or even validate your position on the matter. It's offensive that's not debatable, it WAS used as a slur, also not debatable, your defending your position based on "it wasn't always a slur" and "it's not as serious as the N word slur so it's not really that bad" pretty weak, almost as weak as the Viking defense.

Your busy running in circles about defending a slur, admit it's been used as a slur, but continue to come to the conclusion that it MIGHT not have started as one, so it's not serious enough to remove a sports teams moniker.

Yeah, I'm "the bore stuck in the 1800's"... LMFAO..

[Hawktown]

some asians prefer to be called oriental. Some prefer to be called asian. Some prefer to be called yellow skined. Some prefer to be called chinese, mongolian, vietnamese, ect.

Some black people don't like to be called black!!!

The point is, you really can't win. There is going to be someone or group offended by one thing or another. IMO, If it is not used as a racial term, then it is not. We are free to speech here though I am sure some are offended by that also.

[kalibane]

Some people prefer to be called by their first name. Some people prefer to be called by Mr./Mrs. "last name", some people prefer you call them by a nickname, some people prefer you call them by their middle name. It's so frustrating. You just can't win with all this political correctness about names.

From now on I'm just going to call you "boy" because there is no sense in trying to adapt to all these preferences. You just can't win.

[burrrton]

[removed- got turned around on what was being responded to]

[kalibane]

The analogy was purposely bad Burrton because Hawktown's rationale is also so bad. That was the whole point. It was the only way I could think of to respond to comments that are so far out in the weeds.

Funny though that you rush to call me out and haven't pointed out the gaping flaws in his logic despite several days worth of posts with logic just as ridiculous as what I just did.

P.S. I think you might want to review your post and edit. The last portion loses it's coherency. I'm thinking you might have left out a word or inserted a word you didn't mean to use somewhere.

[burrrton]

My bad- I can't see the post you were responding to.

[kalibane]

makes things a lot clearer knowing that.

[Hawktown]

Wow!!! Sorry there Kal, that you think my logic is "so far out there". The point still stands that there is not really much way to win, it all depends on who you are interacting with if it is offensive or not. I really am not so sure what the issue you had with my post that would make you respond in that tone but hey, to each his own. I'm by no means a racist. There are people who prefer to be considered one or the other. So how do you win when you are speaking to an Asian (or insert any other race) and they prefer oriental then the next time you are confronted with the opposite? I have seen it, it does exist.

I personally have no problem with the team name and think it is a silly thing to fuss over but if the majority ruled, I am for it to change. Again, I'm lost on your issue.

EDIT: Just for the record, I personally don't even refer to people by their race, usually by name or that guy at the..... We are all people to me and to not offend I would refer to them as a person.

[Zorn76]

Daniel Snyder is precisely the kind of guy who thrives on being hated on the national/world stage.

The only way he even begins to re-consider the issue is if he's looking out at an empty stadium from his luxury box.

Otherwise, good luck.

[Hawktawk]

Snyder will lose fans if he caves, not gain them, at least the hardcore ones who fill the seats and buy the jerseys. I'm a Hawks fan and it peeves me that some loud people are creating a tempest in a teapot and monkeying with a cornerstone NFL franchise.
Imagine being a lifelong fan. As You say Zorn, not happening.

[kalibane]

You don't know the City of Washington. No matter how many polls come out in opposition to the name change, that city is completely owned by the Redskins. They are the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th most important team in that city. They had a 35 year waiting list for season tickets when Gus Frerrote was their QB. They may not be in favor of a name change depending on who you ask but they aren't quitting that team any time soon.

A name change is not going impact anything. And Daniel Snyder is already the most hated man in Washington there is no reason to worry about his Q rating at this point.

[RiverDog]

I think that the idea that the generic moniker of "warriors" being deemed offensive by someone is past the point of being a stretch. When someone is termed a warrior it's always in praise. And "warrior" is used interchangeably to describe men, women, people from all races, people from all countries, people spanning all times. Where as Redskin is only a term applied to Native Americans.

That's my point. Where do you draw the line? What in the hell is so offensive about a mascot "Fighting Sioux"? Christ all Mighty, even a local tribe there approved of the nickname.

I get so GD tired of this political correctness bullchit. 10 or so years ago, not knowing any better, I referred to a person as an "Oriental", and some white HR manager scolded me, told me never to use that term again or else there'd be hell to pay, said it was offensive and that the correct term was "Asian.". Hell, I didn't know any better. Growing up as a kid, that's how we referred to people of that race, just like we used to refer to blacks as Negros. It wasn't a slur, and certainly wasn't meant to be on my part, and if there's anyone who is NOT a bigot or racist, it's me. I was extremely insulted over the implication of being accused or even mildly suggestive that I was a racist, perhaps more insulted than a black would have been had someone called him the 'N' word. I almost got fired for arguing with him about it when I told him to STFU then called him a gutless little prick, probably would have been fired had plant manager not overheard the argument. Even at this moment I get pissed off even thinking about it.

[HumanCockroach]

Unfortunately as kids we were subject to what our fathers/mothers said as well as friends mothers/ fathers ( grandparents/ uncles/ aunts/siblings etc) it's a self perpetuating thing, and while you "didn't mean anything by it" and many don't, it doesn't change the fact that it isn't the appropriate word or words to use, it's offensive to people. I refuse to believe people "can't adjust", after all that IS how progress is made, correct?

I'd venture to guess, that many here arguing the "pc world" wouldn't walk up to a Native American and say "how's it going Redskin" ( or any other slur towards any other race). There might be a few clueless souls who would ( or are actually racist) but as a whole? I doubt that VERY seriously, and yet that common sense doesn't extend to the use of the word for a football team. Seems kind of hypocritical to me ( maybe that isn't the best word, but it's the closest I can come too what I mean).

People claiming a term isn't a slur that they wouldn't use in front of or to a complete stranger of that race, religion or sex, IS a slur, no matter what words they use to try to deflect that fact, their actions do not support that claim.

[kalibane]

There is certainly a point where political correctness exceeds common sense can't deny that. I just don't think that's really the case here. I look at this situation and what I see is a mix of two things. I see people like yourself (Riv) who have had an experience like you had being behind on terminology and calling someone "oriental" and you're frustrated by that and just don't want to play the game anymore on any level. Then I see another group of people who want to piggy back on that feeling but who really just don't want be forced to respect the wishes of minorities.

Look I get it. I remember when I first learned "oriental" was no longer acceptable. But I don't think Redskin falls in that same category. There was no point in my lifetime where I heard someone use the term Redskin (obviously not counting references to the team) and the person who said it, whether in a work of fiction or in real life and there wasn't a negative bent to it. And there is no point where I ever thought it would have been cool to approach a Native American and call them a Redskin. I may not be from your generation but I'm not a young man either. This wasn't something I was taught by my parents or in by some teacher it was just something I picked up contextually through living life and from how it was used when I did hear it.

And this isn't some game where I'm trying to seem evolved because I didn't put it together for a long time that it was pretty bogus to have a team going by that name. But as soon as someone mentioned that it was pretty bogus, I was like "wow that is pretty bogus". I think the common sense is on the side of the name change in this case.

What I don't like seeing is a guy who has been given a hard time for an honest mistake like you were over the word "oriental" but I don't think it is really that hard to adapt. English is the most complex language on earth with more words than any other and it's constantly evolving with words falling in and out of use all the time. This is just one more word to phase out of using and it makes people feel better about themselves. Think about it, have you really been affected adversely because it's not polite to say "Negro" anymore and thus you don't do it?

The slippery slope has been exaggerated IMO. There is no realistic path from phasing out Redskins to phasing out Warriors. It's just not in any way equivalent because Warrior can be applied to anyone of any race and any gender.

[RiverDog]

The major part of my angst over the terminology thing was how it was handled. In the situation I noted above, it was this little pencil dick that couldn't fight his way out of a paper sack and that never had any kind of authority until he became a manager, and it didn't help matters that I had a past history with that little pussy. I call it little cop syndrome. Interestingly enough, the plant manager backed me up, asked me to leave the room and close the office door on my way out. I never heard another word about the incident, and the HR manager never spoke to me again, which suited me just fine. You would have had to been there to understand it.

I understand that there's going to be a progression, that some terms will fall out of favor in place of other more palatable ones, such as going from calling Negros blacks, Indians Native Americans, and Orientals Asians. The problem for me is how the conversion is handled. I don't mind if someone takes me aside and tells me on the QT that I'm not 'with it', but it has been my experience that it's always the lilly white do-gooders, and almost always people from a younger generation than I come from, that are setting themselves up as some sort of God to tell people like me that the way I behaved in the past and how I was taught is all out of whack with modern society. It's the implication that because I am not familiar with contemporary terms that I must be a racist that I resent most.

I really don't care if the nickname is changed or not. But IMO if there's going to be forced change, the driving force should come via a strong consensus of legitimate Native Americans.

[burrrton]

...and if there's anyone who is NOT a bigot or racist, it's me.

Racists are always the last to acknowledge their racism. Check your privilege, bigot.

But IMO if there's going to be forced change, the driving force should come via a strong consensus of legitimate Native Americans.

That this is a controversial attitude is what's wrong with society today.

[mykc14]

The school's mascot where I teach/coach/graduated from is the 'Indians.' When we travel to state tournaments there sometimes are people who tell us our school's name is offensive and we should change it. I can't say that I disagree with them and I would have no problem if any local Native tribes wanted us to change. The opposite is actually true. We carry around a signed letter by the Cowlitz tribe (the local tribe where we live) basically telling us that they want us to continue to use the name and that it honors them and their heritage. The last full-blooded Cowlitz Indian and his son were very involved in our HS. They went to every game and the son volunteered almost all of his time to the school's sports programs. I would think that we could do a better job of honoring them with a school name, but that is not what they want so I have no problem following their wishes.

I think most people don't consider 'Indians' altogether offensive but we are certainly headed in that direction, which I personally don't think is a bad thing because they were only called 'Indians' because of Columbus' misidentification of where his boat had landed. As far as what this has to do with the current conversation I think it is interesting. I, personally, think that Redskins shouldn't be the mascot of a professional sports team in our country, but understand that there is much more to that name than a racial slur. If the majority of Native Americans aren't offended then so be it, but if they are offended then it seems like it should be changed.

A funny side note is that around 2004 our mascot was deemed too offensive by somebody (I was away at college so I wasn't paying much attention to who thought it was offensive. It could have been a new Superintendent or the actual tribe). The old mascot was darker skinned and had big round cheeks and a big round nose, pretty stereotypical. The funny part is that they have replaced it with a big white face that has a large strongly shaped nose and doesn't really look like a Cowlitz Indian (the original that they replaced was modeled after an old Cowlitz chief).

[burrrton]

I, personally, think that Redskins shouldn't be the mascot of a professional sports team in our country, but understand that there is much more to that name than a racial slur.

Two words: You. Monster.

[RiverDog]

The school's mascot where I teach/coach/graduated from is the 'Indians.' When we travel to state tournaments there sometimes are people who tell us our school's name is offensive and we should change it. I can't say that I disagree with them and I would have no problem if any local Native tribes wanted us to change. The opposite is actually true. We carry around a signed letter by the Cowlitz tribe (the local tribe where we live) basically telling us that they want us to continue to use the name and that it honors them and their heritage. The last full-blooded Cowlitz Indian and his son were very involved in our HS. They went to every game and the son volunteered almost all of his time to the school's sports programs. I would think that we could do a better job of honoring them with a school name, but that is not what they want so I have no problem following their wishes.

I think most people don't consider 'Indians' altogether offensive but we are certainly headed in that direction, which I personally don't think is a bad thing because they were only called 'Indians' because of Columbus' misidentification of where his boat had landed. As far as what this has to do with the current conversation I think it is interesting. I, personally, think that Redskins shouldn't be the mascot of a professional sports team in our country, but understand that there is much more to that name than a racial slur. If the majority of Native Americans aren't offended then so be it, but if they are offended then it seems like it should be changed.

A funny side note is that around 2004 our mascot was deemed too offensive by somebody (I was away at college so I wasn't paying much attention to who thought it was offensive. It could have been a new Superintendent or the actual tribe). The old mascot was darker skinned and had big round cheeks and a big round nose, pretty stereotypical. The funny part is that they have replaced it with a big white face that has a large strongly shaped nose and doesn't really look like a Cowlitz Indian (the original that they replaced was modeled after an old Cowlitz chief).

Stanford University used to bear the nickname "Indians", too. They were one of the first major colleges to my recollection that changed their name due to pressure from outside groups. About the same time, my college, Eastern Washington, used to be called the "Savages", a term I think most of us can agree is much more insulting than Redskins. Nevertheless, the Natives I went to school with... full blooded natives, not this 1/16th blood used by the government as a standard... weren't insulted at all, called their intramural basketball team the "Savages."

I think than more the nickname is how the team uses it in promotional aspects of their franchise. The Cleveland Indians used to have an employee they called "Chief Knockahoma" stationed in their left field bleachers, all dressed up in traditional Indian garb and banging a drum. They also had (or still have?) a cartoon-like figure with this teethy grin as their emblem on their hats that I could see might be insulting.

A local high school here, the Kamiakin Braves, have always been in very close contact with the Yakama Indian tribe over specific details of their decorations and uniform designs, such as the details of a totem pole in the school's courtyard. The school and the Yakamas have been on very close and very friendly terms, having members of their tribe coming to the school to give talks about life as a Native American. The Yakamas are using the nickname to their full advantage, to help advance their cause and promote understanding.

That's one of the reasons why I feel that it should be the local tribes that should be front and center when it comes to these types of debates rather than these Lilly white, holier than thou rebels without a cause types that in general are promoting these name changes... and I'm not just talking about the Redskins debate. All these people are doing is throwing fuel on the fire, essentially telling a Native what they should and shouldn't feel insulted about.

[Hawktawk]

^^^^This. May I add we Americans need to stop being a bunch of overly sensitive pussies and focus on stuff that really matters but I'm an old racist redneck dinosaur so what do I know?

Ridiculous controversy...

[Hawktown]

^^^^This. May I add we Americans need to stop being a bunch of overly sensitive pussies and focus on stuff that really matters but I'm an old racist redneck dinosaur so what do I know?

Ridiculous controversy...

Agreed 100% but I think that logic is far out in the weeds, lol!