Combine

[NorthHawk]

Both those players have at least experienced playing against good players and I think it was Ifedi who shut down Bosa in a game, so I think that experience relative to a failed DT/DE who never played on Offense is huge. It also means the coaches have some tape on the players so they have a better idea that they might be NFL players with a lesser amount of coaching.
Both those players have excellent athleticism and the measureables the Seahawks seem to like so if Okung does leave, we might have a player that could start next year.
Like you said, ObS, if Cable is such a coaching genius, he should be able to turn a natural Tackle into a solid starter if he can get former DLinemen to be somewhat average OLinemen.

[HumanCockroach]

The question isn't whether Seattle can develop them, it's whether they will draft them. If there's a "better" player on the board in their eyes were they draft, they won't "reach" based on need. They haven't done it in their entire careers while in Seattle, I don't see that changing. Do you guys?

[NorthHawk]

I don't believe in such a thing as a reach, but some people who do were discussing Carpenter and Irvin as being reaches when we selected them, so a precedent has been set.

[HumanCockroach]

It really doesn't matter if you believe in it or I do or anyone else does, there has been a precedence set, and from what I've seen that means drafting people where they deem appropriate, and not ever drafting based on "need". If they don't view a specific need trumping value of a more explosive player. You're talking about a team that expended their first pick on a third string RB, or a DE when they had three quality pass rushers. You're desire to spend a pick no matter what on offensive lineman early really isn't going to cross their minds, nor should it. Maybe we get lucky and the need coincides with the "value" in their eyes, but in no way do I see them all of a sudden completely reversing their draft philosophy to placate people's concern over their line.

[NorthHawk]

Well, they needed a RT and drafted Carpenter.
Some of those who believe in reaches thought he was one.
Therefore, they have reached for a position of need in the past.

Whether you see it or not is inconsequential. To those who believe in reaches for need, the precedent has been set.

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry, don't see Carpenter as a "reach" for need player. They were high on Carpenters physical traits, and drafted the guy they wanted, just as they did for numerous players they desired ( with need or without. They draft "explosive" players ie. Irvin, Micheals, Carpenter, Wilson, Lockett, Clark and the list goes on). The fact that Carpenter coincided with a "need" doesn't make it a "reach based on need" and certainly NOT a "precedence" of they had drafted a lineman every year in the first round you might have a point, but they haven't, and won't adhere to that theory just because you " want" it to be so based on a single player, drafted in a single draft filling a need position based on what some people felt was a "reach" ( which by the way many players Seattle had drafted have been considered including Wagner, Wilson, Irvin, Clark, Chancellor, Britt, etc,etc,etc) they weren't all "needs" they draft "explosive" players. That is the precedence I've seen set in regards to this FO.

[Hawktawk]

Id take Carp right now. The guy had some injury and conditioning issues but he was an upgrade over what we had last year.He is definitely a quality guard in the league

[HumanCockroach]

Which is EXACTLY what I said two years ago, despite continual griping about him. Truth is, there just isn't this bottomless pool of talent in regards to offensive lineman, that can be drawn upon regardless of dollars invested, draft capital spent or quality of coaching. Carpenter, Giacomini were "quality" lineman and were paid for being them. The grass isn't always greener with an expensive free agent or a first round pick. Hasn't been that way for years.

I've little doubt that should Seattle let Sweezy, Okung and Lewis go that within two years someone will be saying the same about two of the three as well, while bemoaning how Seattle doesn't have any talent on the line....

Sometimes the devil you know, is better than the devil you don't. There really aren't ANY fanbases "happy" with their line ( truth be told because most fans only "see" them when they are screwing up, and seldom appreciate them when they aren't. )

[NorthHawk]

Sorry, don't see Carpenter as a "reach" for need player. They were high on Carpenters physical traits, and drafted the guy they wanted, just as they did for numerous players they desired ( with need or without. They draft "explosive" players ie. Irvin, Micheals, Carpenter, Wilson, Lockett, Clark and the list goes on). The fact that Carpenter coincided with a "need" doesn't make it a "reach based on need" and certainly NOT a "precedence" of they had drafted a lineman every year in the first round you might have a point, but they haven't, and won't adhere to that theory just because you " want" it to be so based on a single player, drafted in a single draft filling a need position based on what some people felt was a "reach" ( which by the way many players Seattle had drafted have been considered including Wagner, Wilson, Irvin, Clark, Chancellor, Britt, etc,etc,etc) they weren't all "needs" they draft "explosive" players. That is the precedence I've seen set in regards to this FO.

I never saw it as a reach either, but there was a long discussion about it at the time on the PI forum.
These things are perpetuated by the Kipers of the world who claim players can be taken later. The only way they could be correct is if they had access to every other teams board otherwise they are just guessing.

To those who see it (or saw it) as a reach, it was a player taken too soon at a position of need.
Thusly, to them, a precedent has been set.

For the record, I expect us to either trade down or go Defense with the first pick. However I hope they look at Guards and Centers in either of the next two rounds. It's where we were the weakest and the value seems to be at this point in the draft process.

[c_hawkbob]

I can't believe nobody has brought up Chris Jones' junk falling out of his shorts in the 40 at the combine yet: http://screengrabber.deadspin.com/defen ... 1761792055

Whatever happened to jock straps?

I like the tweet about "wardrobe malfunction aside: 1.7 ten yard split is pretty impressive for a 310 lb guy".

[NorthHawk]

He actually showed some athletic ability, but I bet he's going to get some ribbing in TC as a rookie about that.

[c_hawkbob]

Oh yeah, he's never gonna live that one down!

[NorthHawk]

On another note, this Combine was strange in how slow the WR class is.
There are usually some of the faster players at WR in the Combine, but some of the DL were faster than some of the WRs.
I guess a lot of possession types are in this class.

[HumanCockroach]

He just needs to own it. He'll be fine.... And truth is Bob, I personally went three years "free balling" DURING games, not in the least surprised an athlete wasn't wearing a jock strap to run 40 yards.

[Vegaseahawk]

I'd click on your link Bob, but there's some things you can't unsee. About mock drafts, I typically don't give them much of a look until well into the Free Agent signing period. Then you have a more accurate picture of which positions a team may be more likely fill through both avenues.

[Zorn76]

Gave up on the Combine several years ago.

The draft is a must, though.

Always.

[RiverDog]

Id take Carp right now. The guy had some injury and conditioning issues but he was an upgrade over what we had last year.He is definitely a quality guard in the league

The problem is that Carpenter was drafted as a tackle, which is a higher value position than guard. He was a reach, as the consensus opinion had him going in the mid second round at best. Even his college coach, Nick Saban, no stranger to top rated NFL prospects, was surprised that Carpenter went as high as he did. Carpenter was the worst offensive tackle we've drafted that high since Ray Roberts.

So please, no more James Carpenters. He was a full fledged bust as an offensive tackle and was nearly a full fledged bust, period, until he woke up and smelled the roses in his contract year.

[NorthHawk]

The Jets were talking up Carpenter for the Pro Bowl, so he seems to have had another good year.
I guess he just didn't fit our system.

[HumanCockroach]

Huge stretch to claim a player that is a fringe pro bowl guard is a huge reach with pick 28 of the first round. There's probably ten to twelve guards drafted after that pick in the first round that haven't performed at his level after that choice, including those you endorsed Seattle selecting. Yes he showed up out of shape following the strike, time too let it go. Dude was a viable to good starting offensive lineman with a ton of physical talent and a road grader that you insist you want more of in Seattle.

And he did indeed fit our system. Athletic powerful lineman that excelled in run blocking, is exactly what Seattle is and has always looked for under Carroll.

[burrrton]

until he woke up and smelled the roses in his contract year.

This is what makes me stay quiet about Carp- there is too long a history of of Contract-Year-Coming-To-Jesus performances that don't jibe with previous or future performance for me to take 2015 as indication of his overall talent.

[obiken]

I thought Deforest Buckner would have a good fit for us, a star not a super star had to battle in a tough year, able to fight through on a 3-4. Man after the combine that is a pipe dream and I smoke cigars.

[NorthHawk]

Huge stretch to claim a player that is a fringe pro bowl guard is a huge reach with pick 28 of the first round. There's probably ten to twelve guards drafted after that pick in the first round that haven't performed at his level after that choice, including those you endorsed Seattle selecting. Yes he showed up out of shape following the strike, time too let it go. Dude was a viable to good starting offensive lineman with a ton of physical talent and a road grader that you insist you want more of in Seattle.

And he did indeed fit our system. Athletic powerful lineman that excelled in run blocking, is exactly what Seattle is and has always looked for under Carroll.

Why else would they let him just leave after training him for 4 years to play within our system? I don't get their thinking that there wouldn't be a huge hit after losing their starting LG and trading a starting former pro bowl Center. We really became weak up the middle after those personnel losses.

[HumanCockroach]

Because the contract that he signed would have created difficulty for them to resign guys like Wagner or Wilson etc.. It's a business, and dollars regardless of fit, talent or ability is factored in to the pie. Does this mean Tate, Maxwell, Giacomini, Schofield, Clemmons and Bryant didn't fit the scheme as well? How about the current free agents? Kearse, Okung, Sweezy, Lane etc don't "fit" because they may take more money than Seattle is offering? Players feelings, or desire for more opportunities, money, families etc don't factor in? Come on man. Letting a player leave, or a player signing a contract that is worth more doesn't mean they "weren't a fit" that's ridiculous.

Roughly 5 million a year is more than they were paying any lineman not named Okung last season...

Edit: my mistake it was more than Okung as well. Truth is, they have a "plan" in regards to how much they will pay offensive lineman, and Carpenter because of his talent was paid more than Seattle was willing to spend on a guard, that had zero to do with "fit".

[RiverDog]

Huge stretch to claim a player that is a fringe pro bowl guard is a huge reach with pick 28 of the first round. There's probably ten to twelve guards drafted after that pick in the first round that haven't performed at his level after that choice, including those you endorsed Seattle selecting. Yes he showed up out of shape following the strike, time too let it go. Dude was a viable to good starting offensive lineman with a ton of physical talent and a road grader that you insist you want more of in Seattle.

And he did indeed fit our system. Athletic powerful lineman that excelled in run blocking, is exactly what Seattle is and has always looked for under Carroll.

You're judging him by the last year, his contract year, and conveniently overlooking the 3 previous seasons. Prior to his contract year, Carpenter was a full fledged bust. As a tackle, we had to keep what was supposed to be a big FA acquisition, a receiving tight end, Zach Miller, in to block on passing plays because Carpenter wasn't quick enough to handle edge rushers. There were playoff games during our SB run in 2013 that he wasn't even active, the team, opting to go with a journeyman lineman by the name Paul McQuistin who beat him out. He was a one dimensional blocker, good for short yardage situations or straight ahead power blocking. He could not get to the second level or pursue plays downfield. Linebackers stepped around him like he was a bull fighter. The only player in Seahawks history that came to camp in worse shape than Carpenter did that rookie season Andre Hines. Plus the guy couldn't stay healthy, which I have to believe was due at least in part to his poor conditioning.

It was only after he lost that entitlement attitude and realized that his 1st round draft status didn't do him any damn good when it came to doing his job and he decided to get in shape and lost 40 pounds. It was then and only then that he began to realize his potential and reached this marginal PB status you are referring to.

I don't want to wait 3 GD years for a player to start producing, so please, no more James Carpenter reaches, and if you want a guard, draft a guard. Don't reserve the position as merely a fall back for a busted tackle like Carpenter or Britt.

[NorthHawk]

You can't say the Carpenter pick was a reach unless you can produce all of the other teams boards and show that the Seahawks knew them.
Was it a bad pick? Looking back, it might have been put to better use, but at the time it was a position we desperately had to fill, and I don't blame them for taking a player that fit their profile for what they are looking for at RT.

Regarding HC's contention of their plan of how they want to pay their OL, they better draft extreme talent every draft at OL if they want to "win forever" because we will lose players that will be seasoned veterans every year with that plan. The other option is to simplify their Offensive scheme to get the players onto the field quicker. It's a fools game (or at least a huge gamble) to draft players at the heart of your Offense, develop them for 2 years, play them for 2 years, then let them go to other teams where they excel while your own team suffers as a result. This is especially true at positions where working together and continuity is the key to productivity.

[HumanCockroach]

RD Actually I'm judging him on his last four seasons, while you continue to judge him on his first training camp. I don't see a lot of difference except I'm judging him on recent play, and you continue to hold him in contempt for something that is ancient history. In one thread you clamor for bigger stronger run blockers who are less athletic, and here you continue to profess a player that earns more than any player on Seattle's line, it's a fringe pro bowl player and big, strong and athletic as a "complete bust" because he had trouble with outside speed at a position he hasn't played in four seasons, and the two seasons he did play the position, he came in out of shape, and was a rookie ( ALL rookie tackles struggle with the outside pass rush, no matter what abstract draft number is attached to their name) and a season where he was injured and missed half the games.

[HumanCockroach]

You can't say the Carpenter pick was a reach unless you can produce all of the other teams boards and show that the Seahawks knew them.
Was it a bad pick? Looking back, it might have been put to better use, but at the time it was a position we desperately had to fill, and I don't blame them for taking a player that fit their profile for what they are looking for at RT.

Regarding HC's contention of their plan of how they want to pay their OL, they better draft extreme talent every draft at OL if they want to "win forever" because we will lose players that will be seasoned veterans every year with that plan. The other option is to simplify their Offensive scheme to get the players onto the field quicker. It's a fools game (or at least a huge gamble) to draft players at the heart of your Offense, develop them for 2 years, play them for 2 years, then let them go to other teams where they excel while your own team suffers as a result. This is especially true at positions where working together and continuity is the key to productivity.

I have to ask, have they lost veteran players from that line every year? And if they have, what has the success rate been while implementing this way of doing things?