Manning

[Hawktawk]

That's a fine argument.

For whether Peyton is or is not the greatest QB of all time, but not for whether he's a great QB.

Those numbers will get him a yellow jacket on the first vote, guaranteed.

Hes top ten all time. Top 5? No I cant go there. But yes a tremendous career and an unbelievable arm before the injury. Im not debating that at all Bob and its well said. He should be a first ballot guy, no question.
I will add one qualifier. If perhaps he winds up being conclusively proven to have used his wife to get PED's he might wind up waiting a year or two. Just a hunch.

As for SB 48...UMMM yeah he choked. He choked on the first play from scrimmage for a safety.That was on him.The entire line fired off at the snap. He was the only guy out of position.
His first pick to Chancellor was an unforced error with Thomas being open for a ball thrown 10 feet behind him and high. The Nascar package was revved up and coming but nobody laid a hand on Manning on that throw. The pick 6 to Smith was another panic move. No way he should throw that ball, should have eaten it.He could see the rush. His eyes were closed when he released the ball.Chuck and duck.

I think he was peeing down his leg getting off the bus quite frankly.He was scared.And with good reason. God that was fun

[RiverDog]

I suppose RD it depends on your definition of the word. He hasn't been "good" in the post season, and I would venture a guess that you couldn't find 10% of knowledgeable football fans that would claim he has. He simply hasn't performed well in the post season, that's not bias, it's simply the truth. He has the largest difference between regular season QBR and post season QBR in NFL history amongst QBs that qualify.

I don't know that I would use that word in reference to him, but I certainly wouldn't be claiming "elite post season" QB either, the guy in general has been pretty bad when it mattered most.

I didn't say that Manning was "elite post season." Obviously he's performed better in the regular season than he has in the post season. My argument was about Hawktalk suggesting that Manning was a big game choke artist. Do you agree with that assessment?

Manning is 2-2 in Super Bowls, John Elway was 2-3, Roger Staubach 2-3, Bret Favre 1-1, Dan Marino 0-1. I don't think anyone is going to call those guys choke artists because they were .500 or less in SB's or in Marino's case, only made it to the big game once... very early in his career.

[burrrton]

As for SB 48...UMMM yeah he choked.

As a Seahawk fan, I'd like to say: fck you.

Saying "HE CHOKED" like the outcome was determined by his inability to execute in a big game diminishes my team's dominance.

They lost because they ran into a far better team. Period.

The pick 6 to Smith was another panic move.

What *the hell* are you talking about?? That was *completely* about Avril dominating his man.

Hes top ten all time. Top 5? No I cant go there.

Name the 8 or 9 QBs all time who had better careers than him. Go.

I will add one qualifier. If perhaps he winds up being conclusively proven to have used his wife to get PED's he might wind up waiting a year or two. Just a hunch.

Agreed, although I'd guess it's even more than that.

[burrrton]

You don't need to compare his play against "elite" defenses to judge that, as EVERY QB being compared also didn't play only elite defenses. Truth is, he simply hasn't played well in the playoffs, no matter what excuse you come up with, it's simply the truth, all QBs face those same defenses in the playoffs

He has an unremarkable record in the playoffs (little different than many others) and the caveat about playoff teams vs others was only meant to address the argument about some imagined contrast between his playoff and regular season performance.

He didn't consistently piss himself in the playoffs, nor was he consistently money, so any argument to the contrary is unsupportable.

[RiverDog]

"As for SB 48...UMMM yeah he choked."

As a Seahawk fan, I'd like to say: fck you.

Saying "HE CHOKED" like the outcome was determined by his inability to execute in a big game diminishes my team's dominance.

They lost because they ran into a far better team. Period.

"The pick 6 to Smith was another panic move."

What *the hell* are you talking about?? That was *completely* about Avril dominating his man.

"Hes top ten all time. Top 5? No I cant go there."

Name the 8 or 9 QBs all time who had better careers than him. Go.

I agree with burr. There was no way any quarterback in the league, past, present, or future, was going to beat us in SB 48. We were that dominant.

Saying that Manning was responsible for the Bronco losing SB 48 is like saying that the Italians were responsible for the Axis losing WWII.

[Hawktawk]

As a Seahawk fan, I'd like to say: fck you.
Well F you too then...

Saying "HE CHOKED" like the outcome was determined by his inability to execute in a big game diminishes my team's dominance.

NO IT DOESNT. You have that one completely backwards.It enhances it. Manning and that offense had the best year in NFL history , 55 TD passes and rolled unimpeded through the playoffs and Seattle stuffed them but if you want to argue that Manning was not the worst player on the field you look foolish. Its why I think our SB defense from that year is underrated historically, the extremely high quality of the competition and how thoroughly we destroyed them.The Ravens got to play Todd Collins and the Bears drew Tony Eason.We drew a first ballot HOF QB and a historical offense.

Manning was a nervous wreck and it was BECAUSE of the defense. Hes had bad games but never that bad in recent memory although he did lose 41-0 in a playoff game vs the jets once.

.

Name the 8 or 9 QBs all time who had better careers than him. Go.

Top ten can be 6 you know. Honestly how do you judge? Brady 6 SB 4 wins, Montana 4 and 0. Aikman 3-0. Bradshaw 4-0.Staubach stands out in my book. Favre. Like HC says Manning's playoff QBR is the worst in history relative to his regular season. A lot of them I sort of lump together behind the first 3 or 4. Talking strictly stats Marino was amazing, really Peyton before his time, Fouts, incredible. Other guys who got close and failed Tarkenton and Kelley come to mind. Its almost a useless exercise at a certain point.You probably have a point there though. Tough to find more than 4 or 5 guys Id put above him being perfectly objective.

I will add one qualifier. If perhaps he winds up being conclusively proven to have used his wife to get PED's he might wind up waiting a year or two.

Agreed, although I'd guess it's even more than that.

Yeah that is hard to judge. I dunno Favre sexting his weenie was just a few years ago and he has no problems with voter perception. 5 years is a long time assuming whatever findings from the investigation are revealed relatively soon. The NFL made it a point of emphasis that the investigation into him would remain ongoing despite his retirement. It will be hard to prove if it happened in any case and those who idolize him will not believe it if they have him on film with a needle in his rear end.He will get the jacket sooner than later and deservedly so..

[burrrton]

Well F you too then...

I meant that a little more humorously than it came across.

NO IT DOESNT. You have that one completely backwards.It enhances it.

You're assigning the outcome to something other than my team's performance, or at least reducing it to nothing more than them 'scaring' him rather than flat outplaying him.

He didn't choke that game away- he got soundly beaten by a much better team.

Its why I think our SB defense from that year is underrated historically, the extremely high quality of the competition and how thoroughly we destroyed them.

But you just said we didn't destroy Manning, we merely intimidated him into handing us the game.

I agree intimidation could have been in the air (although that's a little debatable considering they were the greatest offense in history), but it seems to me saying he choked the game away gives that intimidation all the credit.

[edit- you really should take a second to get your quotes cleaned up when posting- it's easy to miss some of the conversation when they're all botched up]

[Hawktawk]

But you just said we didn't destroy Manning, we merely intimidated him into handing us the game.

I agree intimidation could have been in the air (although that's a little debatable considering they were the greatest offense in history), but it seems to me saying he choked the game away gives that intimidation all the credit.

[edit- you really should take a second to get your quotes cleaned up when posting- it's easy to miss some of the conversation when they're all botched up]

Im a dummy burt. Im not sure how to straighten out the quote thing. What am I doing wrong to have them appear like that? All cool on the F thing. I got it.

At a certain point we are spitting hairs regarding Manning vs our defense in 48. As I watched interviews with Manning and Fox in the days leading up to the game they both had a look and tone of fear in my opinion. Manning's last pre game interview he seemed very uptight for a guy on his way to his 3rd Super Bowl. Sure Seattle dominated them and I think they knew it might be coming, unlike most of the pundits. When you walk on the field nervous you are already losing the battle.

I overcooked the Smith pick, it was an incredible bull rush by Avril and not too may QBs could process that quickly that there was no way to get a pass off clean. Our D played out of their mind that night.

For all the talk about dominance they lost to Kaepernick in week 14,Carson Palmer at home in week 16 although the offense was dreadful. They were Richard Sherman's fingertips and Malcolm Smiths heads up play from watching 48 on TV, again vs Kap, a qb who will never be able to sniff Manning's jock strap as far as accomplishment or talent..

Frankly the SB was the best game this D has ever played. It was far from preordained at kickoff and this hardest core Hawks fan was shocked as anyone by the sheer level of dismantling.

The overlooked guy in this conversation is always Russ. He was my MVP and I said it at the time. Russ was as huge a factor as anyone,keeping chains moving and piling up points with lousy protection and still not a single mistake leaving Manning to watch from the sidelines and give the defense a break.

We can all agree it was the greatest game in Hawks history and for whatever reason Manning was thoroughly embarrassed by our defense and outplayed by a mile by a second year 5-11 midget.

[burrrton]

We can all agree it was the greatest game in Hawks history and for whatever reason Manning was thoroughly embarrassed by our defense and outplayed by a mile by a second year 5-11 midget.

Word.

[RiverDog]

IMO choking is when you overthrow a wide open receiver or fumble a perfect snap ala Tony Romo. Another word for it is a f--k up. I didn't see any play or behavior by Peyton Manning in SB 48 that I would consider choking.

As far as an intimidation factor goes, I don't think the Broncos were intimidated by us one little bit prior to the game. Like Burrton says, they had one of the most prolific offenses in the history of the game and they were favored. Additionally, we didn't exactly steam roller our way into the SB, either, as we had lost 2 of our last 4 regular season games, our first playoff game with the Saints was much closer than expected (a one score game), and the NFCCG with the Niners went down to the last 20 seconds before it was decided. There was no reason whatsoever for them to fear us.

But after the game started and Kam Chancellor laid out Demaryius Thomas, intimidation was definitely a factor, at least as it applied to their receiving corps.

[Hawktawk]

IMO choking is when you overthrow a wide open receiver or fumble a perfect snap ala Tony Romo. Another word for it is a f--k up. I didn't see any play or behavior by Peyton Manning in SB 48 that I would consider choking.



But after the game started and Kam Chancellor laid out Demaryius Thomas, intimidation was definitely a factor, at least as it applied to their receiving corps.

Couldnt agree more about the hit. Denver had run pick plays and relied on YAC to disguise an already declining throwing arm and it had worked beautifully due to the personell and Mannings ability to get it in the right hands. Seattles extremely physical and active back 7 shut it down and Kam Bam threw the first hardest punch.

Not to beat a dead horse because Seattle's LOB has made plenty of quarterbacks look silly. But you make my point about the two really bad "choke" plays.

On the FIRST PLAY OF THE GAME!!! Manning attempts to audible far too late in the cadence with the 12s roaring leading to a safety on a snap while he was running toward the line of scrimmage. By the time they saw the ball again it was 5 zip, a huge tone setting sequence.

Who do you put it on?center Manny Ramirez? On sound FX manning is TELLING Ramirez "you couldn't hear me" and Ramirez shakes his head violently "NO" looking extremely pissed. Heath Evans among others pundits said the play appeared to be on Manning since everyone else fired off in sequence. It was a bad play for sure.If Manning runs the play as called instead of going flight deck commander mode on the first play of the game backed up in the end zone it doesn't happen. Maybe something worse would have instead but that was pretty bad to open a Super Bowl.

And the first pick was exactly what you described, high and wide to an open Denarius Thomas. Chancellor picked it as he was coming up in support and he was behind Thomas. It was a quacking duck, a poor throw. The rush was coming but Manning was not hit. These plays set a tone and it lasted all night. It doesn't diminish anything Seattle did in that game to admit Manning was absolutely out of sorts from the first snap.

[HumanCockroach]

Frankly the SB was the best game this D has ever played. It was far from preordained at kickoff and this hardest core Hawks fan was shocked as anyone by the sheer level of dismantling

Oh contraire monfreir... Several of us called EXACTLY that, pointed out Denver was custom made for Seattle, and that the actual SB was played two weeks earlier in Seattle...

Monkey absolutely was professing that as well, I was calling 48 the coronation for two full weeks. At NO point did I ever once get nervous either before the game, or during the game. Excited ? Absolutely. Nervous? Not a single second.

[burrrton]

Who do you put it on?

The crowd. You seem to acknowledge this- they couldn't hear each other and hadn't switched off to silent counts, etc.

Why is it so hard to admit it was not some colossal choke by Manning but a colossal ass-kicking administered by our team?

It doesn't diminish anything Seattle did in that game to admit Manning was absolutely out of sorts from the first snap.

The hell it doesn't.

Manning set some record for completions in a SB (is that what it was?)- that's not the hallmark of a guy that sh*t the bed because the pressure was too much for him.

[RiverDog]

Couldnt agree more about the hit. Denver had run pick plays and relied on YAC to disguise an already declining throwing arm and it had worked beautifully due to the personell and Mannings ability to get it in the right hands. Seattles extremely physical and active back 7 shut it down and Kam Bam threw the first hardest punch.

Not to beat a dead horse because Seattle's LOB has made plenty of quarterbacks look silly. But you make my point about the two really bad "choke" plays.

On the FIRST PLAY OF THE GAME!!! Manning attempts to audible far too late in the cadence with the 12s roaring leading to a safety on a snap while he was running toward the line of scrimmage. By the time they saw the ball again it was 5 zip, a huge tone setting sequence.

Who do you put it on?center Manny Ramirez? On sound FX manning is TELLING Ramirez "you couldn't hear me" and Ramirez shakes his head violently "NO" looking extremely pissed. Heath Evans among others pundits said the play appeared to be on Manning since everyone else fired off in sequence. It was a bad play for sure.If Manning runs the play as called instead of going flight deck commander mode on the first play of the game backed up in the end zone it doesn't happen. Maybe something worse would have instead but that was pretty bad to open a Super Bowl.

And the first pick was exactly what you described, high and wide to an open Denarius Thomas. Chancellor picked it as he was coming up in support and he was behind Thomas. It was a quacking duck, a poor throw. The rush was coming but Manning was not hit. These plays set a tone and it lasted all night. It doesn't diminish anything Seattle did in that game to admit Manning was absolutely out of sorts from the first snap.

I should have added another qualifier to the term 'choke.'. It has to occur at a critical juncture of the game, say like the Viking's kicker shanking his FG attempt in our playoff game. That was a classic choke job. Otherwise, every single quarterback in the league can be considered a choke artist as they all make bad throws at some point in almost every game. At no point in SB 48 was there a critical juncture that would have provided an opportunity for a player to 'choke.'. The Broncos were never in that game.

You're bias is really showing, HT. I haven't even heard Roach chime in his support for your calling Manning a choke artist.

[Hawktawk]

"Star wars numbers but not a lot of hardware."quote" Bob Irsay, the man who employed him most of his career.

6 home playoff losses, three with HFA throughout.He went one and done with a 15-1 team. He played on stacked teams with exceptional skill position players throughout his career and still torched out 6 times at home. Without his 3 gift playoff wins that Ostweiller could easily have delivered behind that defense(141 yards with a pick and lost fumble in the SB,1-14 on third down convesrsions) he would be under 500 despite all the weapons, the outstanding coaching, the incredible football mind and skill set.

So what was it? Why is his playoff QBR worse relatively to his regular season QBR than ANY QB IN HISTORY????? Ill give him that you have to make the postseason quite a bit to play in 29 postseason games but he gagged in some big moments and plenty of others feel that way. If that is bias so be it.

[mykc14]

Truth is, he simply hasn't played well in the playoffs, no matter what excuse you come up with, it's simply the truth, all QBs face those same defenses in the playoffs

His career post season passer rating is 87 (compared to 96 in the regular season). That's not terrible, but obviously not great. Tom Brady, Mr. Playoffs has a career 88 passer rating. I don't really care all that much because I agree he has not played his best football in the post-season overall, but it's not like he totally pooped the bed. He had an average to below average D most of his years in Indy. A guy like Brady, with basically the same quarterback rating has had a great D his whole career. Given the amount of times his team was a #1 seed maybe he should have made and won 1 more SB, but people painting him as some post-season choke artist aren't looking at the numbers.

[RiverDog]

His career post season passer rating is 87 (compared to 96 in the regular season). That's not terrible, but obviously not great. Tom Brady, Mr. Playoffs has a career 88 passer rating. I don't really care all that much because I agree he has not played his best football in the post-season overall, but it's not like he totally pooped the bed. He had an average to below average D most of his years in Indy. A guy like Brady, with basically the same quarterback rating has had a great D his whole career. Given the amount of times his team was a #1 seed maybe he should have made and won 1 more SB, but people painting him as some post-season choke artist aren't looking at the numbers.

Agreed. John Elway had a 79.7 passer rating in the playoffs, Dan Mario 77.1, Dan Fouts 70.0.

I'm willing to bet that most quarterbacks, even HOF QB's, post lower numbers in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Even Joe Montana, the gold standard for playoff excellence, has just a slightly higher passer rating (95 vs. 92) in the playoffs vs. the regular season. Our own Russell Wilson currently has a 101.8 regular season rating but it drops to 93.4 in the playoffs despite the fact that his playoff W/L record is 7-3.

[kalibane]

Oh contraire monfreir... Several of us called EXACTLY that, pointed out Denver was custom made for Seattle, and that the actual SB was played two weeks earlier in Seattle...

Monkey absolutely was professing that as well, I was calling 48 the coronation for two full weeks. At NO point did I ever once get nervous either before the game, or during the game. Excited ? Absolutely. Nervous? Not a single second.

Late to the party but +1 on this. I have a beer friend who was a big Bronco's fan and we were talking about the Super Bowl that year. I remember telling him the thing that scared me the most about the Super Bowl was how comfortable I was with the matchup.

It didn't seem like I should have been that confident in the matchup and it made me think I had a blind spot or was just setting myself up for disappointment. But the way the game played out they won every single matchup I thought they'd win.

The Broncos loved to do quick passes and especially bubble screens, relying on RAC yards and pace to overwhelm their opponents. But the Seahawks were the best team in the league at limiting RAC and the best team in the league at shutting down screen plays. Their best WR was physically large but wasn't overly physical and usually shrank from the moment when he was challenged physically. There couldn't have been worse matchup for him than Sherman. (And yes I know he technically set a record for receptions on a bunch of short routes moving him away from Sherm that amounted to no impact on the game), but the point was Demaryius was NOT going to be a dominating force in that game. They had no balance to their offense so they couldn't punish the NASCAR package with runs. Their special teams were horrendous which Percy Harvin proved by returning a kick for TD even though they specifically kicked off in a way designed to prevent a return.

They were overmatched.

[HumanCockroach]

I never said he was a choke artist, what I said was he played poorly in the playoffs ( it's there for reference if you guys feel like googling it) I do feel it incredibly hypocritical RD to start using QBR ratings from another era to defend his mediocre play, as it was you that pointed out how Wilson couldn't or shouldn't be compared to greats because of the differences in rules, and style of play just a few months ago.

Yes Brady has an 88 rating, of course with the exception of Moss for two years and Welker I would be hard pressed to come up with many explosive offensive weapons( though I could name a slew of mediocre options) he has had on the outside during those runs, typically it's guys like Lafell and Amendola he's winning with, retread running backs. Manning has had guys like Thomas, Wayne, Garcon, Welker, etc. While Brady has made his career making "the play" to some random unknown cast off or stiff, Manning has played with a who's who of pro bowl and all pro weapons. I think it's a little disingenuous to claim Manning in the post season has been anything but mediocre with the weapons available to him, while not always the case for Brady, often times he has made lemonade out of lemons, and ultimately it's about WINNING in the postseason isn't it? And making the plays TO win? Manning hasn't been "great" on really any notable playoff games in his career ( even Luck, a QB I most certainly would indeed place closer to the "choke" category) has a couple "great" postseason performances, and has had several "abysmal" games as well. Brady may not always have been "great" but Il'd be hard pressed to rattle off many "abysmal" outings either, while being able to name several great performances.

[RiverDog]

I never said he was a choke artist, what I said was he played poorly in the playoffs ( it's there for reference if you guys feel like googling it) I do feel it incredibly hypocritical RD to start using QBR ratings from another era to defend his mediocre play, as it was you that pointed out how Wilson couldn't or shouldn't be compared to greats because of the differences in rules, and style of play just a few months ago.

Yes Brady has an 88 rating, of course with the exception of Moss for two years and Welker I would be hard pressed to come up with many explosive offensive weapons( though I could name a slew of mediocre options) he has had on the outside during those runs, typically it's guys like Lafell and Amendola he's winning with, retread running backs. Manning has had guys like Thomas, Wayne, Garcon, Welker, etc. While Brady has made his career making "the play" to some random unknown cast off or stiff, Manning has played with a who's who of pro bowl and all pro weapons. I think it's a little disingenuous to claim Manning in the post season has been anything but mediocre with the weapons available to him, while not always the case for Brady, often times he has made lemonade out of lemons, and ultimately it's about WINNING in the postseason isn't it? And making the plays TO win? Manning hasn't been "great" on really any notable playoff games in his career ( even Luck, a QB I most certainly would indeed place closer to the "choke" category) has a couple "great" postseason performances, and has had several "abysmal" games as well. Brady may not always have been "great" but Il'd be hard pressed to rattle off many "abysmal" outings either, while being able to name several great performances.

No hypocrisy, HC. I was not comparing QBR ratings of the various QB's from different eras. What I was comparing is their own individual differentials between their playoff and regular season performances. Most seem to play significantly worse in the playoffs than they do in the regular season, which should come as no surprise as the competition is a lot better.

My comments were directed more at Hawktalk than they were you, but I did ask you if you agreed with his characterizations of Manning and you never replied, but you probably read right over it. Regardless, I'm not coming down on Manning quite as hard as you are. Yes, his playoff performance has been worse than his regular season numbers so I won't get too bent out of joint if you want to say that he's played poorly, but as I think I was able to demonstrate, he's not alone.

[HumanCockroach]

Agreed. John Elway had a 79.7 passer rating in the playoffs, Dan Mario 77.1, Dan Fouts 70.0.

Huh? I don't see any regular to postseason comparisons in there?

( and honestly, it seems a bit of a stretch to me to be giving credit for a SB win that Denver won in SPITE of Mannings poor play. Seriously, if that's the criteria, I could claim Gale Gilbert was the "best" post season QB in history because he "won" 3 straight SBs. Of course he never took the field, but honestly might have contributed more to his team's victories that Mannings did in 50. Or even Dilfer who was 1 for 1 as the starter. ).

[RiverDog]

Huh? I don't see any regular to postseason comparisons in there?

( and honestly, it seems a bit of a stretch to me to be giving credit for a SB win that Denver won in SPITE of Mannings poor play. Seriously, if that's the criteria, I could claim Gale Gilbert was the "best" post season QB in history because he "won" 3 straight SBs. Of course he never took the field, but honestly might have contributed more to his team's victories that Mannings did in 50. Or even Dilfer who was 1 for 1 as the starter. ).

OK, you got me. Let's try it again:

John Elway 79.9 regular season, 79.7 playoffs, -.2
Dan Marino 86.4 regular season, 77.1 playoffs, -9.3
Dan Fouts 80.2 regular season, 70.0 playoffs, -10.2
Aaron Rodgers 104.1 regular season, 98.2 playoffs, -5.9
Russell Wilson 101.8 regular season, 93.4 playoffs, -8.4
Tom Brady 96.4 regular season, 88.0 playoffs, -8.4
Ben Worthlessburger 94.0 regular season, 84.6 playoffs, -9.4
Phillip Rivers 95.5 regular season, 85.2 playoffs, -10.3
Phil Simms, 78.5 regular season, 77.0 playoffs, -1.5

I could go on and on. I tried picking quarterbacks I knew should have pretty good playoff numbers, like Simms, Brady, and Worthlessburger, but even those guys had worse playoff numbers. The only ones I could find that were significantly better in the playoffs than the regular season were Montana, Aikman, and Warner, but I'm sure there are others.

Nevertheless, there are one whole helluva lot of very good quarterbacks with worse playoff performances than their regular season stats. Manning's sub par playoff performance is by no means unique.

Better?

[HumanCockroach]

How many of those QBs would you take in a SB before you would take Manning? If you're being honest, there aren't a whole heck of a lot of those very good QBs that you wouldn't take before Manning to win a SB. Honestly, I would take Eli in a SB over Peyton 10 out of 10 times, maybe not Marino ( but probably) possibly not Fouts. My point is, that he simply hasn't been above "average" as a whole in the post season, and far too often below average. Hell I'd take Flacco before Manning in the playoffs. For all of his "brilliance" decimating a pretty piss poor division earlier in his career I don't remember any truly outstanding showings in the postseason, and several poor showings.

He wasn't the "worst" by a long stretch, but he IMHO was nowhere near the "best" either. All of those guys had "moments" where they carried their team, I simply don't remember a game like that for Manning with all the marbles on the line. Doesn't make him a "choker" but out certainly doesn't make him much of anything else either.

I mean Colin Karpernick has almost an identical passer rating, turnover percentage a higher YPA/YPC and brings the added weapon of his legs, would you prefer him as well heading into a postseason? I don't understand the refusal to acknowledge his mediocre play in the postseason, it is what out is, it doesn't change what he accomplished during the regular season, but it certainly doesn't cement his credentials as a playoff QB.

[burrrton]

I don't understand the refusal to acknowledge his mediocre play in the postseason, it is what out is, it doesn't change what he accomplished during the regular season, but it certainly doesn't cement his credentials as a playoff QB.

Who didn't acknowledge his mediocre postseason performances, and/or who characterized him as a "postseason QB"?? Honest Qs.

[HumanCockroach]

Read the discussion on Manning for most of this page. While I don't agree with the "choke artist" assessment. I certainly wouldn't want him as my teams QB in the playoffs before literally a slew of other QBs, some that honestly weren't very good QBs ( or at least not elite HOF type guys) maybe he didn't sh*t the bed ( though in numerous playoff games IMHO that's exactly what he did) but he doesn't belong in the discussion with the QBs RD and Myck were using was measuring sticks. Simply put, he is a mediocre/ average post season performer and has been his entire career.

[burrrton]

Read the discussion on Manning for most of this page.

Huh? I did, HC- in fact, I took part in some of it. I think the gist of the defense of PM is that while he clearly didn't define his HOF credentials in the postseason, being rather pedestrian in that respect, he was far from some 'bed wetter' and it's pretty tough to argue he's not a first-ballot HOF'er otherwise.

Maybe I missed something someone said, though.

Simply put, he is a mediocre/ average post season performer and has been his entire career.

Um, sure. Again, though, I must have missed where someone argued he was stellar in the postseason.

[edit- I say this earnestly: if I missed who you're arguing with, just quote them and tell me to shut up or something- I can't bear to scroll up and pore over all the posts with the botched quotes and such]

[HumanCockroach]

Sorry was busy and edited to clarify that statement after you either replied or you missed what I added to the post. Basically several have used some pretty "clutch" postseason QBs as a defense of Mannings postseason play, I was responding to those posts.

[burrrton]

Sorry was busy and edited to clarify that statement after you either replied or you missed what I added to the post. Basically several have used some pretty "clutch" postseason QBs as a defense of Mannings postseason play, I was responding to those posts.

Ah- ok. I edited, too. Gotcha.

[HumanCockroach]

They weren't arguing "stellar" QB play, the reasoning was more along the lines of "well this stellar post season performer has a similar QBR or this stellar postseason performer also had a lower QBR from regular season to post season, so his play hasn't been that bad" deal.

I'm not sure why there seems to be a built in defense mechanism for Manning, it's fine and all, but the guy simply hasn't played well in general, and absolutely abysmal in several instances.

( edit LOL... I seriously don't care much, I just find it odd. Like I said, I don't think he's a choke artist, just wouldn't want him affiliated as the starter on my team in the playoffs. And there's some pretty pedestrian QBs I would take before Manning with the choice to be honest).

[burrrton]

They weren't arguing "stellar" QB play, the reasoning was more along the lines of "well this stellar post season performer has a similar QBR or this stellar postseason performer also had a lower QBR from regular season to post season, so his play hasn't been that bad" deal.

Well, when someone points to a "stellar" QB and their mediocre-ish postseason play, I think they're just looking for someone you won't object to as being a sh*tty QB and therefore easy to dismiss as valid rationale for PM being a HOF QB despite mediocre postseason stats.

I'm not sure why there seems to be a built in defense mechanism for Manning

It's not built-in- it's borne of middling postseason stats with otherwise first-ballot Hall-of-Famer credentials, something some people can admit, while others struggle to acknowledge for some reason.

[edit]

( edit LOL... I seriously don't care much, I just find it odd. Like I said, I don't think he's a choke artist, just wouldn't want him affiliated as the starter on my team in the playoffs. And there's some pretty pedestrian QBs I would take before Manning with the choice to be honest).

I'm pretty much with ya- not sure we should be arguing. But I have nothing else to do now that the games are over and everyone's in bed.

I think it comes down to the fact that he's fine in the playoffs, and he'll get you to them, right?

[HumanCockroach]

I certainly wasn't arguing against HOF credentials, and I wasn't agreeing with the choke artist thing, just was attempting too clarify my position on the guy ( at least as a player) I have little qualms about admitting his success in the regular season, and just as little qualms about discussing his "averageness" when it comes to the playoffs. I just felt that comparing him to guys like Brady, Montana etc wasn't really accurate ( and honestly a little insulting to those guys). I don't have issues with it, just felt it was "odd" that there was always some form of disclaimer when discussing Manning and the playoffs. Like the world would cease if more than just I admitted he wasn't very good in the postseason or something...

And yeah, I guess getting to the playoffs, is cool and all. If I had to choose between a QB that caught fire in the postseason when he seldom got there, and one that got there every year and played OK I would probably take the second choice ( I think depending on whether the occasional guy was bringing titles back with him every time)...

[RiverDog]

How many of those QBs would you take in a SB before you would take Manning? If you're being honest, there aren't a whole heck of a lot of those very good QBs that you wouldn't take before Manning to win a SB. Honestly, I would take Eli in a SB over Peyton 10 out of 10 times, maybe not Marino ( but probably) possibly not Fouts. My point is, that he simply hasn't been above "average" as a whole in the post season, and far too often below average. Hell I'd take Flacco before Manning in the playoffs. For all of his "brilliance" decimating a pretty piss poor division earlier in his career I don't remember any truly outstanding showings in the postseason, and several poor showings.

He wasn't the "worst" by a long stretch, but he IMHO was nowhere near the "best" either. All of those guys had "moments" where they carried their team, I simply don't remember a game like that for Manning with all the marbles on the line. Doesn't make him a "choker" but out certainly doesn't make him much of anything else either.

I mean Colin Karpernick has almost an identical passer rating, turnover percentage a higher YPA/YPC and brings the added weapon of his legs, would you prefer him as well heading into a postseason? I don't understand the refusal to acknowledge his mediocre play in the postseason, it is what out is, it doesn't change what he accomplished during the regular season, but it certainly doesn't cement his credentials as a playoff QB.

I characterized Manning's play in the post season as sub par. I think that's pretty similar to "mediocre", don't you? My contention, which you refuse to acknowledge, is that there are one heck of a lot of otherwise very good quarterbacks whose post season play can also be considered 'mediocre'. Post season performance is simply one component in the equation used to measure a quarterback's performance. If it wasn't, Marino and Fouts would have never gotten within sniffing distance of the HOF.

[mykc14]

I certainly would say that manning has struggled in the post-season. I brought up QBR after HC had said that manning had the worst post season to regular season QBR difference. I was actually surprised to see mannings rating was as 'high' as it was at 87. I was equally surprised to see the guy right next to him on the all time list was Brady at 88. I think I remember his bad games more than his good games. Also, it could be said that Just as much as manning has enjoyed offensive weapons Brady has enjoyed very good defenses. I am not trying to say that manning is better than Brady but the difference between them is closer than I would have thought before I started actually looking at the stats.

[HumanCockroach]

Stats can and are misleading. Using stats I could make the argument that Romo was a "great" QB, I don't for a second agree with that statement any more than I agree with a statement like Colin Kaepernick is a better post season QB than Manning or Andrew Luck is a better QB than Wilson, sometimes you have to use your eyes, watch the games and see the bad and good. Whether Mannings QB rating is near Brady's or not ( which as I pointed out would mean Kaepernicks is right there as well, would anybody, and I do mean anybody claim Kaepernick was a great QB? Including his Mom, Father and friends in the postseason.)

The issue I have with statements like that is they are excuses/ deferments of the actual play Manning has had inn the postseason, much in the way Indy fans were clamoring about Lucks greatness against KC after they lost their entire starting defense and he came back after putting his team in a 30+ point hole with his abysmal play describing ALL of his game as "great" while ignoring the first 3 quarters.

Simply not into excuses for his mediocre to horrible play, no matter what his stats say ( sometimes I feel it's important to look beyond them, much in the same way guys like Anthony used to blame Hasselbeck for interceptions that bounced off receivers hands, the "stats" say one thing, when someone's eyes say an entirely different thing.)

[mykc14]

Stats can and are misleading. Using stats I could make the argument that Romo was a "great" QB, I don't for a second agree with that statement any more than I agree with a statement like Colin Kaepernick is a better post season QB than Manning or Andrew Luck is a better QB than Wilson, sometimes you have to use your eyes, watch the games and see the bad and good. Whether Mannings QB rating is near Brady's or not ( which as I pointed out would mean Kaepernicks is right there as well, would anybody, and I do mean anybody claim Kaepernick was a great QB? Including his Mom, Father and friends in the postseason.)

The issue I have with statements like that is they are excuses/ deferments of the actual play Manning has had inn the postseason, much in the way Indy fans were clamoring about Lucks greatness against KC after they lost their entire starting defense and he came back after putting his team in a 30+ point hole with his abysmal play describing ALL of his game as "great" while ignoring the first 3 quarters.

Simply not into excuses for his mediocre to horrible play, no matter what his stats say ( sometimes I feel it's important to look beyond them, much in the same way guys like Anthony used to blame Hasselbeck for interceptions that bounced off receivers hands, the "stats" say one thing, when someone's eyes say an entirely different thing.)

I don't disagree with most of this except to say that although stats don't tell most of the story the do tell part of it. Your example with romo is a good one. Using stats you could easily argue he is an elite QB, but we all know he isn't. At the same time you can't ignore the stats (I am not saying you are doing this), which show that he has been a good QB at times throughout his career. The kaepernick example is interesting, if his sample size were 20 more playoff games and he had a QBR in the high 80's with multiple SB wins I would probably assume he was a good post season QB. And again nobody is saying manning has been an elite playoff performer, I was just surprised to see that his 'stats' didn't match up to my memory.

[HumanCockroach]

Blah. It isn't something I'm going to spend a lot more time on. Here is Mannings SB stats, can we at least stop crediting him with these SB wins that he was irrelevant or WORSE a detriment to his team ( ie they won in SPITE of him). His "best" SB performance he had 1 TD and a pick ( the only SB he managed an equal number of TDs to interceptions).


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... uper-bowl/

[mykc14]

Blah. It isn't something I'm going to spend a lot more time on. Here is Mannings SB stats, can we at least stop crediting him with these SB wins that he was irrelevant or WORSE a detriment to his team ( ie they won in SPITE of him). His "best" SB performance he had 1 TD and a pick ( the only SB he managed an equal number of TDs to interceptions).


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... uper-bowl/

No doubt his SB stats are mediocre at best. One of his wins was against a bears team led by Rex grossman and the other was won by the defense, he didn't really have to play well to win those games.

[Hawktawk]

And in the one loss he threw a pick 6 to end it. In the other he was dreadful from the first missed snap, his NFL *record* passing numbers in garbage time to the tune of 8 points notwithstanding.
In the very biggest moments of his career he either failed or got bailed out. And as I recall he got an MVP for one of those extremely mediocre performances in a SB.

Choke in big moments is probably too strong a statement . Mediocre is not. Hof no doubt. Best ever not even.