Manning

[Hawktawk]

It had been reported by Woody Paige that Manning is leaning retirement within the week but today I heard a report on ESPN that he is hoping to continue his career if he has the opportunity. No link yet.
He cant seriously be thinking that can he? Is he going to make the Donkeys cut him after his gift wrapped Lombardi? He's screwing Elway dragging this out.
I've heard rumors he will go to the Rams if he continues playing. God I hope so. Imagine the LOB feasting on that noodle arm twice a year.

[NorthHawk]

How much money would he get if he's cut?
He doesn't seem to need the money, but the want of money makes people do strange things.

[mykc14]

It had been reported by Woody Paige that Manning is leaning retirement within the week but today I heard a report on ESPN that he is hoping to continue his career if he has the opportunity. No link yet.
He cant seriously be thinking that can he? Is he going to make the Donkeys cut him after his gift wrapped Lombardi? He's screwing Elway dragging this out.
I've heard rumors he will go to the Rams if he continues playing. God I hope so. Imagine the LOB feasting on that noodle arm twice a year.

It would be surprising to see him suit up again. Perfect way to end his career, especially the way it could have ended with his end of the regular season benching. He was tossing INT's at a record pace. Maybe he thinks he could bet another one if he just shows up and manages games, who knows but I really hope he hangs em' up.

[c_hawkbob]

It's not money,and he will retire (or he'll be cut), he just want's to put as much time and distance as possible between the end of his career and the recently rekindled scandal. He doesn't want to appear to be retiring because of anything to do with that. Unfortunately, he's severely limited as to how much time he can take.

Woody Paige is just jumping the gun to claim "I broke the story first rights" (if you live in Denver you know that's very typical of Woody). Elway's gonna allow Peyton to make the announcement (thus the official denial from the team) as long as Peyton adheres to the timetable.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="mykc14"]

It would be surprising to see him suit up again. Perfect way to end his career, especially the way it could have ended with his end of the regular season benching. He was tossing INT's at a record pace. Maybe he thinks he could bet another one if he just shows up and manages games, who knows but I really hope he hangs em' up.[/quote

Me too. On Feb 2,2014 I was sweating like Marco Rubio with Seattle up 30+ late in the 3rd. That's how great this guy was. Last year was brutal to watch. He has a gift wrapped ending in his lap. Trying to go another year would be extremely foolish. Right now he looks like Brett Favre.The Bronks are deep in negotiations with Ostweiller and have no interest in bringing him back.

Is there a GM foolish enough to bring him aboard?

And Bob I think he may be considering the scandals but I have another take. Hes better off getting out while his reputation between the lines is intact. It will help him in the court of public opinion. If he appears selfish and delusional about his abilities it will only hurt him IMO.

[c_hawkbob]

Waiting right up until the 8th to announce his retirement isn't going to effect his reputation between the lines at all.

[Hawktawk]

If that is what happens I completely agree Bob. If he hangs on after that and makes Denver release him he's going to look pretty bad.

[obiken]

Great speech today. I am so glad he finally tossed it in.

[Hawktawk]

Congratulations Peyton on a tremendous career. Thank you for retiring now. It was time.

[burrrton]

It's always easier to reflect on someone like Peyton once they're retired (otherwise he's just another pr*ck foe that I'll hate on with the berzerker fury of a hundred Norsemen).

As such, I can now say he is/was one of the classiest players I've ever had the pleasure to watch. A true sportsman that every player should try to emulate, gracious in victory and defeat.

He'll be missed, and here's to RW taking over his mantle.

[HumanCockroach]

Blah....

[RiverDog]

It's not money,and he will retire (or he'll be cut), he just want's to put as much time and distance as possible between the end of his career and the recently rekindled scandal. He doesn't want to appear to be retiring because of anything to do with that. Unfortunately, he's severely limited as to how much time he can take.

Makes sense. I know I wouldn't want a long and distinguished career like his to end on a controversial note ala Barry Bonds, Roger Clemmons, et al, although this is a mini scandal compared to those two.

[Hawktawk]

[He doesn't want to appear to be retiring because of anything to do with that. Unfortunately, he's severely limited as to how much time he can take.

Makes sense. I know I wouldn't want a long and distinguished career like his to end on a controversial note ala Barry Bonds, Roger Clemmons, et al, although this is a mini scandal compared to those two.[/quote]

Why is this a "mini scandal" RD? Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire,Palmero all used PEDs. If Charlie Sly is telling the truth(It has been verified absolutely that the pharmacists at the Guyer Instiute were shipping something to Ashley Manning on a regular basis ) and the investigation involving the NFL, Drug enforcement, and the world doping agency uncovers it then you have a squeaky clean image absolutely blown in the weeds. Peyton Manning would be exposed as a man having used his wife as a go between to get dope. Couple that with the resurfacing of the ugly episode at Tennessee Id say the scandal potential is quite high.

[RiverDog]

Why is this a "mini scandal" RD? Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGuire,Palmero all used PEDs. If Charlie Sly is telling the truth(It has been verified absolutely that the pharmacists at the Guyer Instiute were shipping something to Ashley Manning on a regular basis ) and the investigation involving the NFL, Drug enforcement, and the world doping agency uncovers it then you have a squeaky clean image absolutely blown in the weeds. Peyton Manning would be exposed as a man having used his wife as a go between to get dope. Couple that with the resurfacing of the ugly episode at Tennessee Id say the scandal potential is quite high.

It's a mini scandal because Bonds and Clemmons legacies were completely ruined by their scandals. In all likelihood they will never get inducted into the HOF because of it. No one to my knowledge has even suggested that this current scandal of Manning's will adversely affect his legacy to such a point where he won't make the HOF. Manning has a long, long ways to go to catch up with baseball's 'Roids Boys.

Come back and talk to me on the day that Peyton is indicted for perjury for giving false testimony before Congress if you want to make Manning's scandal analogous to those of Bonds and Clemmons.

[burrrton]

This is an honest question: did I miss some key development in the 'Manning Doping' story??

The last I heard there was only the Al-Jazeera (!) report that was immediately discredited by the very person from whom they sourced their story, with AJA "standing by" their story based on a second source who only confirmed HGH was being shipped to Manning's wife.

Is there more to it than that?

A related question I'll throw out: what is it about Manning's career trajectory or injury/recovery history that's consistent with someone abusing HGH? IOW wouldn't we expect to be wondering how he came back so quickly from his neck injury (we never did, did we?), or how he maintained his arm strength to nearly 40 years of age (he didn't), etc?

[c_hawkbob]

Nowadays "I read it somewhere" = "verified absolutely".

Personally, having watched the video of the guy being recorded before he knew he was being recorded I can see it either as:

- legit information and the tip of an ugly iceberg that the source knew he couldn't prove and immediately retracted to avoid litigation when his "off the record" session wound up not being so off the record.

or:

- a source too full of himself and exaggerating the facts to impress his audience and when he found out he was being filmed immediately retracted everything to avoid litigation.

Either way the Al Jazeera reporter was way out of line, should lose his credentials and is probably way beyond avoiding that litigation.

The fact that nobody else has taken the story and run with it yet is telling, but so is the fact that Al Jazeera is standing by their report.

All in all, while it wouldn't surprise me if he were using HGH at some point, there is not near enough there to be conclusive that he was. Besides, the fact that the information is all regarding Peyton's wife and not Peyton himself adds another degree of removal from any legitimate reason to put him in the company of Bonds and Clemons and Lance Armstrong just yet.

[burrrton]

The fact that nobody else has taken the story and run with it yet is telling, but so is the fact that Al Jazeera is standing by their report.

For some other group of "journalists", I might think so, too, but I think AJA is in "credibility schmedibility" territory- they essentially have none, so "standing by" their story, no matter how weak the source, beats surrendering.

I guess we'll see if anything comes of it- I'm just not sure where the confidence in the validity of this story comes from.

[RiverDog]

The fact that nobody else has taken the story and run with it yet is telling, but so is the fact that Al Jazeera is standing by their report.

All in all, while it wouldn't surprise me if he were using HGH at some point, there is not near enough there to be conclusive that he was. Besides, the fact that the information is all regarding Peyton's wife and not Peyton himself adds another degree of removal from any legitimate reason to put him in the company of Bonds and Clemons and Lance Armstrong just yet.

The one constant, more so than political or social bias, amongst the media is that they are attracted to sensationalism, and I can't think of a future HOF'er and talked about in some circles as the greatest QB ever being a story that those jackals could resist. The fact that no major sports/news organization hasn't picked up on this story is very telling. Al Jazeera doesn't have much of a reputation to lose anyway so there isn't very much motivation for them to distance themselves from a questionable story if there's a reasonable chance that something really sensational were about to happen.

[Hawktawk]

Al Jazeera has stated they have a second "impeccable' source for their information regarding Manning that will be brought out in case of a lawsuit.. Having watched the entire documentary twice I am personally convinced there is something to it. As for dragging Al Jazeera through the mud maybe the domestic media should have a little mud on them for utterly giving up on objective honest journalism, especially of the "sting" style undercover nobody in American media will do .MOF they have been Manning's press wing attacking Al Jazeera instead of digging deeper. It is all about worshiping these athletes.The conclusive proof that something was being shipped to Ashley manning was developed by the two hired goons Manning himself hired to intimidate Sly the night before the report was to be made public. Do you all understand Manning and all others in this story had approximately 6 weeks heads up from Al Jazeera that the report would be released? Manning's response was to issue no statement of rebuttal to the Al jazeera network that would deny or mitigate the report and would have been included in the article as several others who did respond. He hired former presidential spokesman Ari Fleisher to handle media and 2 private investigators to go after Sly and as it pertained to the story it kind of backfired.

Oh an as far as I know Manning hasn't sued either. because discovery is a big time two way street. As for the investigation being "shoddy" The NFL isnt acting like it and they have several other law enforcement and doping agencies coordinating on it so we will see.

It isn't just Manning that was pointed out, Its Julius Peppers, James Harrison and half the Green Bay roster as well as track athletes and pro baseball players. One MLB player is seen on camera obtaining dope from Charlie Sly as the undercover reporter films. As for legacies It a weird deal between baseball and football. Baseball cheaters are reviled and shunned. Football players serve their 4 week suspension, say they made a "mistake" and suit back up.There has never been a first ballot HOF QB accused of using his wife as a drug mule though.

Maybe we cant handle the truth.

[burrrton]

Al Jazeera has stated they have a second "impeccable' source for their information regarding Manning that will be brought out in case of a lawsuit.

Their "impeccable" source supposedly merely confirms HGH was going to the Manning household. Maybe the places I've read that are wrong.

[edit]

Also, if your main source tells everyone you're full of sh*t, you don't generally hold the "impeccable" source back until and unless you get sued.

Well, unless it's a lawsuit you want (which it's pretty obvious they do).

Maybe we cant handle the truth.

I may indeed be too skeptical, but I'd say it's just as likely you're being too credulous:

1. This was reported by a "news organization" with less credibility than a supermarket tabloid.
2. Their story was completely rebutted by their own source.
3. The only 'evidence' of any wrongdoing (HGH deliveries to the Manning household) has a legitimate explanation.
4. There is absolutely nothing about Manning's injury or performance history that one might associate with HGH use.

I have no problem vilifying PM if we find out he actually did use the stuff, but at this point, I can't find a single reason to think he did so.

Do you all understand Manning and all others in this story had approximately 6 weeks heads up from Al Jazeera that the report would be released? Manning's response was to issue no statement of rebuttal to the Al jazeera network that would deny or mitigate the report and would have been included in the article as several others who did respond.

I think that's pretty much how any reasonable person would respond to something they believed was complete nonsense from an organization with no credibility.

Oh an as far as I know Manning hasn't sued either.

See above. If you know there's absolutely nothing to it, and there are no ramifications coming of their accusations, I'd be surprised if he *did* initiate a libel suit. It would be outrageously expensive, and AJ has nothing to lose and everything to gain from a drawn-out high-profile legal fight with virtually unlimited money to keep it going.

[c_hawkbob]

Maybe we cant handle the truth.

I get the sense that you often feel this to be the case. That others just can't handle what you've deemed to be the truth ...

Perhaps you're just a little quick to decide what "the truth" is while others (myself for instance) prefer to wait until the truth becomes a little more evident before deciding I know everything there is to know about a situation.

As far as being able to handle the truth about someone famous being shown to be unworthy of the pedestal we like to put them on; what's not to handle? I had no issuing coming to terms with the truth about Ruth or OJ or Lance, I just wasn't in a hurry to be the first to condemn any of them, but I "handled" those truths just fine.

[Hawktawk]

[
Maybe we cant handle the truth.

I get the sense that you often feel this to be the case. That others just can't handle what you've deemed to be the truth ...

Perhaps you're just a little quick to decide what "the truth" is while others (myself for instance) prefer to wait until the truth becomes a little more evident before deciding I know everything there is to know about a situation.

As far as being able to handle the truth about someone famous being shown to be unworthy of the pedestal we like to put them on; what's not to handle? I had no issuing coming to terms with the truth about Ruth or OJ or Lance, I just wasn't in a hurry to be the first to condemn any of them, but I "handled" those truths just fine.[/quote]

Ok Bob, etc. I try to steal a movie line and get excoriated

AL Jazeera had no significant US audience but their journalism was never considered shoddy, actually quite the opposite. They were considered a hard hitting journalistic team until they dropped a dime on Manning and all of a sudden they are crackpots. I agree Bob with the various scenarios you proposed regarding Charlie Sly may have been in play. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. But a lot of the stuff Sly said had so much intricate detail, how they had to put together a morning and evening dose for Ryan Howard because he wasn't smart enough to do it on his own. Texting and driving and matter of fact announcing Clay Mathews had just asked for drugs. I saw the guy peddle dope with my own eyes!! A couple of different PED dealers were filmed dispensing actually.

Sly did not issue a retraction until Manning's off duty police officers showed up at his parents house the night before the release of the documentary. They identified themselves as police officers even though they were not acting in any official capacity. Sounds like witness intimidation to me. Manning sounded and acted guilty as well . All his actions, his mock anger as if he had just heard about something he had known was coming for weeks. Putting a war team together, lawyering up. Hiring a presidential spokesman. I am not without my supporters in the press either regarding these sentiments although not many domestic outlets and just a handful of reporters.

And if Ashley was getting actual HGH, not some derivative she almost certainly does NOT have a legal reason to use it. What would she do with the quantities that were constantly being shipped according to Sly?? Why was she receiving it from the same sports and anti aging clinic her injured husband just happened to be patronizing.How simple are we supposed to be? Not to mention Guyer is currently in a ton of legal trouble, under litigation, and was busted by an Al Jazeera reporter(recorded call) flat out lying about the time of Sly's employment there. The guy is a sleaze ball as is Charlie Sly.

I admit to being a black helicopter guy but I'm not hopelessly naïve either.

[Hawktawk]

Overlooked in the whole controversy was what the focus of the documentary was intended to be, how ridiculously easy PEDs are to obtain and how major sports leagues are the ones who don't want to know and cant handle the truth. Such as the revelation that an NFL administered HGH test is worthless, based on zero players testing positive due to the fact the particular test is only effective if the player has used within a few hours. That was in the documentary too.

[RiverDog]

I get the sense that you often feel this to be the case. That others just can't handle what you've deemed to be the truth ...

Perhaps you're just a little quick to decide what "the truth" is while others (myself for instance) prefer to wait until the truth becomes a little more evident before deciding I know everything there is to know about a situation.

As far as being able to handle the truth about someone famous being shown to be unworthy of the pedestal we like to put them on; what's not to handle? I had no issuing coming to terms with the truth about Ruth or OJ or Lance, I just wasn't in a hurry to be the first to condemn any of them, but I "handled" those truths just fine.

That's my feelings, too. We really don't have any obvious "truths", all we have is an unsubstantiated accusation from one source (AJ).

I'm not a huge Peyton Manning fan. I thought he was an OK dude but I didn't refer to him as some sort of role model that my grandkids should emulate (Russell Wilson carries that distinction for me) and am not rallying to his defense in this mini scandal. But your dislike for him was blatantly obvious before this story broke, and it seems to me that you are wishing for this accusation about him to prove to be true so that you can dance on his grave.

[burrrton]

AL Jazeera had no significant US audience but their journalism was never considered shoddy, actually quite the opposite. They were considered a hard hitting journalistic team until they dropped a dime on Manning and all of a sudden they are crackpots.

The percentage of the American public, and probably of this board, that considers Al Jazeera a legitimate news network (fairly or not) is in the single digits, regardless of their 'scoop' on Peyton Manning.

Sounds like witness intimidation to me.

That's because:

I admit to being a black helicopter guy

Look, tawk, I'm not trying to argue there's no way PM could have done this (which I've been careful to make clear), but a fair reading of your case against him sounds an awful lot like trying to connect dots that can't really be connected, and/or creating dots where none exist.

For instance: Sly didn't even start at the clinic until 2013- when did all this supposedly go down?

[Hawktawk]

[quote="RiverDog
I'm not a huge Peyton Manning fan. I thought he was an OK dude but I didn't refer to him as some sort of role model that my grandkids should emulate (Russell Wilson carries that distinction for me) and am not rallying to his defense in this mini scandal. But your dislike for him was blatantly obvious before this story broke, and it seems to me that you are wishing for this accusation about him to prove to be true so that you can dance on his grave.[/quote]

WWHHHAAA? I'm not the biggest fan, probably like you. I've always thought his good guy image was bull, throwing his line, kicker, whatever under the bus when he would fail. He has been a choker in big moments.But I can acknowledge his greatness as well. I rooted for the damn guy in the SB.

I'm looking for the truth and I think in large measure I am closing in on it in this instance. And as with Lance etc. I will possibly be proven right eventually. If he were lily white, or any of them there would be litigation underway for months now.

My level of disgust is with the league more than anything else. I've said when the scandal broke that I could understand a guy with a broken neck using HGH which is a miracle drug of sorts. If he did it and was honest about it he would be forgiven almost immediately just like Giambi when he owned up and apologized, Pettite as well. But he's looking like he's going the Lance routine, destroy the messenger. If he did it I hope he gets nailed just like Brady. Cheating is cheating and if he did something his legacy should reflect that. If he didn't I hope that he can be conclusively cleared and Ill be the first guy to eat my crow WHICH I ALWAYS DO unlike some others in here.

[Hawktawk]

[quote="burrrtonThe percentage of the American public, and probably of this board, that considers Al Jazeera a legitimate news network (fairly or not) is in the single digits, regardless of their 'scoop' on Peyton Manning.
]

That's because:

I admit to being a black helicopter guy

Look, tawk, I'm not trying to argue there's no way PM could have done this (which I've been careful to make clear), but a fair reading of your case against him sounds an awful lot like trying to connect dots that can't really be connected, and/or creating dots where none exist.

Which is generally what black helicopter types do, I guess...[/quote]

We just disagree. Did you watch the report? anyone who hasn't is commenting without being informed. Is it court of law type evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Of course not but there is 2 weeks of surreptitious recordings of this guy and he just sounded like a guy who knew very well what he was doing and could rattle off doses, side effects, clients, probability of detection, reasons for curtailing treatments. For instance he said they had to be very careful with Clay Mathews because he was "high profile". Just too much detailed voluntary info about players in several professional sports leagues that would be difficult to just pull out of his arse while being secretly filmed. The guy said he spent something like 6 weeks in GB. These things are easy to verify. The fact this hasn't wrapped up tells me there is a little smoke here at a minimum.

[burrrton]

Ill be the first guy to eat my crow WHICH I ALWAYS DO unlike some others in here.

Nobody cares if you "eat crow"- we just want you to process evidence like a rational adult, not a "black helicopter guy".

Is it court of law type evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? Of course not but there is 2 weeks of surreptitious recordings of this guy and he just sounded like a guy who knew very well what he was doing and could rattle off doses, side effects, clients, probability of detection, reasons for curtailing treatments.

What date(s) was the Manning family receiving the doses, and what date did Sly start at the clinic, tawk?

Answer? 2011 and 2013 respectively.

[Hawktawk]

See above. There's black helicopters and then there is suspending common sense. As for what you "want" me to do I'm a bipolar 56 year old dude and so I probably wont change much going forward.

[burrrton]

See above. There's black helicopters and then there is suspending common sense. As for what you "want" me to do I'm a bipolar 56 year old dude and so I probably wont change much going forward.

Heh- ok, fair enough. From here, though, it looks like it's you who's suspending common sense.

Training camp can't come soon enough...

[Hawktawk]

[
What date(s) was the Manning family receiving the doses, and what date did Sly start at the clinic, tawk?

Answer? 2011 and 2013 respectively.

Now you come up with a reason why that doesn't matter (wrt Manning) and we'll keep going back and forth. Or something.

See you bought the Kool-Aid Burton. You are ABSOLUTELY WRONG about SLY. He was an intern at the Guyer Clinic in Indy in 2011,EMPLOYED IN THE PHARMACY which Al Jazeera confirmed with a recorded phone call with the personnel director, posing as a prospective employer seeking a reference. Guyer lied through his teeth and ESPN etc. took off and ran with it, sort of like a political campaign to immediately knock the story down.You lapped it up obviously. He was also there as an actual employee in 2013. This makes my point about the domestic media running interference.

As far as I know no domestic news agency has ever made that correction.

I heard the tape, its on the report I don't think you watched. If your version were true this investigation would already be over.

[burrrton]

He was an intern at the Guyer Clinic in Indy in 2011

Jeezus, Tawk- Guyer confirmed it, Sly confirmed it. He didn't start there until 2013.

Your entire premise is that everyone else is lying and you and Al Jazeera are right. You heard something that confirmed your biases, now you're clinging to it no matter what anyone else says or what new evidence comes out. Why??

You lapped it up obviously.

LOL. Someone lapped something up alright.

This makes my point about the domestic media running interference.

Yes, our domestic media is so averse to sensational stories, aren't they?

[Hawktawk]

Jeezus, Tawk- Guyer confirmed it, Sly confirmed it.

Your entire premise is that everyone else is lying and you and Al Jazeera are right. You heard something that confirmed your biases, now you're going to cling to it like grim death.

You lapped it up obviously.

LOL. Someone lapped something up alright.[/quote]

What do you expect them to say? Guyer and Sly are facing jail time if they get popped. Guyer and his "institute" is already a hair fire.
DID YOU WATCH THE REPORT????The personnel director of Guyer institute places Sly there in 2011.ITS ON TAPE. Unless Al Jazeera manufactured a fake phone call Guyer is a liar.
Watching Sly on 2 weeks worth of tape peddling drugs I'm pretty certain he is now lying too. Your pro Manning bias or anti HT bias is showing as well. You definitely wont consider what the truth may be.

[burrrton]

Your pro Manning bias or anti HT bias is showing as well. You definitely wont consider what the truth may be.

I go where the evidence takes me, tawk- I don't give two squirts about Manning or his reputation. You went with your initial assumption and are rationalizing away everything that contradicts it (as black helicopter guys are wont to do).

Maybe you're right, though- I can't bear to go back and forth on it anymore.

[RiverDog]

WWHHHAAA? I'm not the biggest fan, probably like you. I've always thought his good guy image was bull, throwing his line, kicker, whatever under the bus when he would fail. He has been a choker in big moments.But I can acknowledge his greatness as well. I rooted for the damn guy in the SB.

I'm looking for the truth and I think in large measure I am closing in on it in this instance. And as with Lance etc. I will possibly be proven right eventually. If he were lily white, or any of them there would be litigation underway for months now.

My level of disgust is with the league more than anything else. I've said when the scandal broke that I could understand a guy with a broken neck using HGH which is a miracle drug of sorts. If he did it and was honest about it he would be forgiven almost immediately just like Giambi when he owned up and apologized, Pettite as well. But he's looking like he's going the Lance routine, destroy the messenger. If he did it I hope he gets nailed just like Brady. Cheating is cheating and if he did something his legacy should reflect that. If he didn't I hope that he can be conclusively cleared and Ill be the first guy to eat my crow WHICH I ALWAYS DO unlike some others in here.

Your bias just showed. Manning is 2/4 in Super Bowls, where the standard for most elite quarterbacks is just getting there. I don't think there is 10% of knowledgeable football fans that would characterize him as you have, ie has been a choker in big moments.

[HumanCockroach]

I suppose RD it depends on your definition of the word. He hasn't been "good" in the post season, and I would venture a guess that you couldn't find 10% of knowledgeable football fans that would claim he has. He simply hasn't performed well in the post season, that's not bias, it's simply the truth. He has the largest difference between regular season QBR and post season QBR in NFL history amongst QBs that qualify.

I don't know that I would use that word in reference to him, but I certainly wouldn't be claiming "elite post season" QB either, the guy in general has been pretty bad when it mattered most.

[Hawktawk]

Yeah back up there RD.

Manning is 14 and 13 lifetime in the playoffs. That's "big moments"RD . 6 of the losses were at home, 3 of them with HFA throughout. The first SB he was horrendous most of the postseason and mediocre in the SB. He was carried by a resurgent defense featuring hard hitting safety Bob Sanders. Didn't hurt that Rex Grossman was on the other sideline. He threw a PICK 6 to lose to the Saints the next SB and suggested Wayne had run the wrong route on the play afterwards. In 48 he was the worst player on the field without question. Last year get real.. he was carried every single game he played by one of the most ferocious defenses ever seen. He passed for 140 in the Superbowl with a pick and a lost fumble, converting one first down the entire game. Tebow could have won with that defense. Ostweiiler for sure, probably more convincingly than Manning.If it weren't for 3 gift wins despite his extremely mediocre play he would be underwater for his career in the postseason.

He should have thanked his lucky stars, John Elway, and cleaned out his locker immediately. Instead his dawdling around being an attention wh@re for a month and a half coupled with Kubiaks decision to return him to the starting role in the first place cost them a promising young QB who was a big reason for that ring.

Star wars numbers without a lot of hardware to show for it. That Bob Irsays words, not mine....

[c_hawkbob]

Yeah back up there RD.

Manning is 14 and 13 lifetime in the playoffs. That's "big moments"RD . 6 of the losses were at home, 3 of them with HFA throughout. The first SB he was horrendous most of the postseason and mediocre in the SB. He was carried by a resurgent defense featuring hard hitting safety Bob Sanders. Didn't hurt that Rex Grossman was on the other sideline. He threw a PICK 6 to lose to the Saints the next SB and suggested Wayne had run the wrong route on the play afterwards. In 48 he was the worst player on the field without question. Last year get real.. he was carried every single game he played by one of the most ferocious defenses ever seen. He passed for 140 in the Superbowl with a pick and a lost fumble, converting one first down the entire game. Tebow could have won with that defense. Ostweiiler for sure, probably more convincingly than Manning.If it weren't for 3 gift wins despite his extremely mediocre play he would be underwater for his career in the postseason.

He should have thanked his lucky stars, John Elway, and cleaned out his locker immediately. Instead his dawdling around being an attention wh@re for a month and a half coupled with Kubiaks decision to return him to the starting role in the first place cost them a promising young QB who was a big reason for that ring.

Star wars numbers without a lot of hardware to show for it. That Bob Irsays words, not mine....

That's a fine argument.

For whether Peyton is or is not the greatest QB of all time, but not for whether he's a great QB.

Those numbers will get him a yellow jacket on the first vote, guaranteed.

[burrrton]

Boy, tawk, Manning is *really* under your skin.

Nobody would argue he's been a playoff juggernaut, or that his postseason success is a defining characteristic of his career, but for heaven's sake, he's not all that far off from most.

For whether Peyton is or is not the greatest QB of all time, but not for whether he's a great QB.

Well stated.

From a quick glance, he's about the same as Favre in the postseason- nowhere near the greats like Brady (or even Wilson with a much smaller sample size), but not some postseason bed-wetter, either. Sheesh.

[edit]

Also, if you want to talk about 'drop off' from regular season to postseason, you should be comparing regular season performance only against the best teams in the league.

Was his XLVIII drubbing an instance of him choking? Of course not- it was an instance of him running into one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL. They, and he, were very good- they just weren't Seahawks good.

All postseason games aren't that stark, but the idea's the same.

[HumanCockroach]

You don't need to compare his play against "elite" defenses to judge that, as EVERY QB being compared also didn't play only elite defenses. Truth is, he simply hasn't played well in the playoffs, no matter what excuse you come up with, it's simply the truth, all QBs face those same defenses in the playoffs, Manning the year he faced Seattle in the SB was outperformed by Brees and Kaepernick IN Seattle not NY, two years ago he was outperformed by Newton and Rodgers in the same venue by the same defense, he was outperformed by Newton in THIS SB yet wasn't facing the best defense that day. This is par for the course in his career.

Not sure why anyone is arguing that fact, nor do I really care. As I said I wouldn't call him a choker, but anyone claiming he's been good in the biggest games hasn't been watching for the last 15 years.