Travis Henry.

[obiken]

I heard that we may go after Travis Henry, I guess I just assumed that Rawls was our guy.

[HumanCockroach]

You mean Derrick Henry?? Travis Henry hasn't played in like 7 or 8 years...

[obiken]

Right sorry, no relation I dont think.

[RiverDog]

I heard that we may go after Travis Henry, I guess I just assumed that Rawls was our guy.

I don't think Rawls has earned his spot yet. He looked great last season running the ball, but there's still a lot of things we need to see more of, such as his blocking and pass catching ability. He's also coming off a major injury.

This is a spot where Pete's "always compete" philosophy comes in handy. The last thing we want is for Rawls to turn into another Christine Michael and develop an entitlement attitude.

[obiken]

Do you really see a Heisman Trophy Winner falling to us though River?

[RiverDog]

Do you really see a Heisman Trophy Winner falling to us though River?

No, I don't. I was simply saying that I don't think Rawls has the starting RB spot locked up and that the Hawks still have their radar up, as well they should. It wouldn't surprise me to see us draft a RB in the top 3 rounds, but I doubt that it will be Henry.

[c_hawkbob]

Doesn't matter whether Rawls has earned the spot or not, the injury he sustained is the type that could either be a "2nd year back" injury or one from which he never truly recovers.

Besides, even if he is 100% this year you want 2 top flight RB's nowadays.

[HumanCockroach]

Even if he drops I'm not entirely sure this isn't providing incentive to both Rawls and Micheals to up their game. Sometimes just talking about a viable replacement pushes players to a higher level.

[NorthHawk]

I think there will be a RB taken, and it might be early, but I'm expecting rounds 4 or 5 to be the target area.

[monkey]

I heard that we may go after Travis Henry, I guess I just assumed that Rawls was our guy.

Derrick Henry is a guy who is off the charts athletic for someone his size. He also ran behind a line that uses mostly a ZBS.
Having said that, those two areas are really the only ways that he would fit the Seahawks. (I know that he said he met with us, he met with a lot of teams projected to pick around where we do, it's meaningless really).
The trouble is that, while he's got a very nice top speed for a big guy, he's too easily brought down behind the line of scrimmage. Early penetration destroys him.
Think about how often we've marveled at Marshawn's ability to fight to just GET BACK to the LOS. Remember back to last year and what Rawls did as well. Now think about a big guy who doesn't really run like one, but runs more like a smaller back, but without the ability to cut that smaller backs have, and then you would have Henry.

I actually like Henry, for the right team. I think we would do very well with a team like Dallas, who has a good line.
The Seahawks have a good run line, yes, but it's a line that allows too much penetration for Henry to be effective consistently. Sure he'd likely break one here and there, but consistently? I just don't see him as a good fit.

[RiverDog]

Doesn't matter whether Rawls has earned the spot or not, the injury he sustained is the type that could either be a "2nd year back" injury or one from which he never truly recovers.

Besides, even if he is 100% this year you want 2 top flight RB's nowadays.

Yup, and I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread that Rawls is coming off a serious injury.

I'm not so sure about your second paragraph, though. It seemed like last season that it didn't matter who we plugged in there... Lynch, Rawls, or Michael. They did a really nice job. And we just re-signed Michaels, so we do have some insurance if Rawls doesn't produce. I don't think we need to waste a high draft pick on an RB.

[monkey]

It seemed like last season that it didn't matter who we plugged in there... Lynch, Rawls, or Michael. They did a really nice job.

You do realize that, this statement you just made, is strong evidence of the fact that people underrate the offensive line right?
Oh sure, the line may not be a great pass blocking one, but when it comes to run blocking, our line, no matter how it was comprised, was a top five line.
ZBS lines always get undervalued.

[RiverDog]

You do realize that, this statement you just made, is strong evidence of the fact that people underrate the offensive line right?
Oh sure, the line may not be a great pass blocking one, but when it comes to run blocking, our line, no matter how it was comprised, was a top five line.
ZBS lines always get undervalued.

Yes, I do realize that, monkey, and I agree with you, except for one important aspect of the running game: 3rd/4th downs, which is one of the primary reasons why we had so many 4th quarter meltdowns last season.

And like you said, their pass blocking leaked like a sieve, making their net performance unacceptable.

[c_hawkbob]

Nobody is saying this O-line cant run block, that's never been the issue.

[HumanCockroach]

People do realise Seattle gave up less sacks and pressures than all but one team in the NFL from week 10 on last season right? Leaked like a sieve my arse. I understand complaining about the first half of the year, though it is clear as day that even that was a combination of factors ( as has been discussed by coaches, players, analysts etc). However complaining about a line that excelled from week 10 on seems awfully clueless.

[NorthHawk]

Part of that was better play calling with quicker routes.
Then they promptly lost 40% of the line that protected so well to Free Agency so we're back to where we were last year with 2 holes to fill.
Continuity will be the most difficult part of this change.
Maybe this year they will get some young players that can play for a number of years together before their contracts are up.

[HumanCockroach]

Ok, but I'm going to ask how many games they missed, when they missed them and how effective they were when playing? Seems to me a lot of you were claiming they both were pretty bad in pass blocking all of last year ( not just in the beginning when they all struggled, but right up until the end of the season. Was that a mistake on your parts?).

[NorthHawk]

When you change your game plan to quicker routes, how much of the statistical improvement in pass protection comes from that?
Stats can deceive when taken as absolutes, but what other measurement can you use, I suppose. The now infamous "eye test" comes to mind.
As well, this won't be the same line that statistically improved the last half of the year without Okung and Sweezy.
How long it will take them to be a fully functioning group this year with the limited practice time permitted by the CBA will probably be the determining factor.
That doesn't include any learning curve a rookie that might make the starting lineup will go through.

[RiverDog]

People do realise Seattle gave up less sacks and pressures than all but one team in the NFL from week 10 on last season right? Leaked like a sieve my arse. I understand complaining about the first half of the year, though it is clear as day that even that was a combination of factors ( as has been discussed by coaches, players, analysts etc). However complaining about a line that excelled from week 10 on seems awfully clueless.

Sorry, HC, but the first 9 games of the season did happen, and our multiple failures during that 50+% of the season caused us to lose the division and HFA and with it, diminished our chances of going back to the SB. We cannot afford to wait another 9 games this season for this new addition to 'gel' like we had to last season. And like North Hawk pointed out, the sad state of the OL forced us into a whole different offensive mode in order to compensate for that weakness and resulted into the stats that you're busting your buttons over.

Plus we're down two of the OL's from that unit that you are so damn proud of.

[HumanCockroach]

This is what I mean. Unrealistic, close minded, evaluation. Evaluation takes into account ALL of the information, not just the good or just the bad ( by the by Okung missed 3 of those games so spare me).

Don't care really what your assessment is on it, you would be claiming the same if they have up 20 sacks all season and those 20 came in three games that "cost" them the division title or number one seed. Your continuing insistence that the line was solely to blame for those struggles at the beginning of the year, shows your inability to rationally judge the problems that the whole team struggled through, NOT just the offensive line.

( edit: please feel free to show me where I expressed "pride" in the line at any point, last season or this off season. Otherwise you can stop claiming I have said something I haven't. Just because I point out positives that were accomplished, doesn't mean I'm happy about everything, just means I can SEE everything, not just what I WANT to)

[obiken]

Sorry, HC, but the first 9 games of the season did happen, and our multiple failures during that 50+% of the season caused us to lose the division and HFA and with it, diminished our chances of going back to the SB. We cannot afford to wait another 9 games this season for this new addition to 'gel' like we had to last season. And like North Hawk pointed out, the sad state of the OL forced us into a whole different offensive mode in order to compensate for that weakness and resulted into the stats that you're busting your buttons over.
Plus we're down two of the OL's from that unit that you are so damn proud of.

My sentiments exactly River. I think the comeback was fine, but you have win the division or face a Mount Everett of a Playoff run. We can keep digging holes in individual games or in Seasons and come out smelling like a rose.

[RiverDog]

This is what I mean. Unrealistic, close minded, evaluation. Evaluation takes into account ALL of the information, not just the good or just the bad ( by the by Okung missed 3 of those games so spare me).

Don't care really what your assessment is on it, you would be claiming the same if they have up 20 sacks all season and those 20 came in three games that "cost" them the division title or number one seed. Your continuing insistence that the line was solely to blame for those struggles at the beginning of the year, shows your inability to rationally judge the problems that the whole team struggled through, NOT just the offensive line.

( edit: please feel free to show me where I expressed "pride" in the line at any point, last season or this off season. Otherwise you can stop claiming I have said something I haven't. Just because I point out positives that were accomplished, doesn't mean I'm happy about everything, just means I can SEE everything, not just what I WANT to)

Oh, quit your whining! As soon as you retract your accusation with your blatantly false statement that I said "the line was solely to blame for those struggles at the beginning of the year", I'll quit accusing you of expressing "pride in the line." Complaining because I said you said something you didn't...spare me your hypocrisy!

[RiverDog]

My sentiments exactly River. I think the comeback was fine, but you have win the division or face a Mount Everett of a Playoff run. We can keep digging holes in individual games or in Seasons and come out smelling like a rose.

I'm not going to go so far as to say that playing that wild card game in sub zero conditions was a major factor in our slow start in our divisional playoff game vs. the Panthers the following week as I'm not into excuse making, but there's little doubt that our time could have been put to much better use if we had a first round bye.

I'm not going to rationalize our problems with excuses like the new line needed time to gel, Kam's holdout, injuries, etc. We just plain weren't as good as we have been in the recent past. 2015 was a much different team than the previous three seasons, and we need to get better if we have any hope of getting back to the SB. Pete's raised the expectations bar here. It's almost like being a Yankee fan where anything less than a World Championship is a disappointment. That's one of the downsides to fielding championship teams: Fans expect more from you.

[HumanCockroach]

HumanCockroach wrote:
You guys should actually read the whole article, at the end of which he points out that the offense scored more points than every team in the NFL save one from week ten on, has been one of the best running teams four consecutive seasons, Wilson was pressured LESS than all but one QB during that span, had more TDs, less interceptions etc. I'm not entirely sure where exactly you aren't seeing improvement??? In fact, all you are doing is "guessing" at decline based on your own talent evaluation, not actual performances. No one is agreeing with Obi's assessment in that article, they are actually pointing out WHY Seattle has made the revolving door on the line WORK, and actually excel in spite of it.

LMAO.

Laugh your ass off at this:

Summary: It’s amazing that the Seahawks got as far as they did with a line that struggled to open many holes, and a pass protection unit that was sieve-like. It got better when Patrick Lewis came in, but their poor play serves to only highlight how good the backs were, and how talented Russell Wilson is at extending plays.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... is-season/

I'm not "guessing" at anything. We had the worst W/L record since 2011. That's a fact.

RiverDog
Legacy

Posts: 4841
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338

You were saying RD?

[RiverDog]

HumanCockroach wrote:
You guys should actually read the whole article, at the end of which he points out that the offense scored more points than every team in the NFL save one from week ten on, has been one of the best running teams four consecutive seasons, Wilson was pressured LESS than all but one QB during that span, had more TDs, less interceptions etc. I'm not entirely sure where exactly you aren't seeing improvement??? In fact, all you are doing is "guessing" at decline based on your own talent evaluation, not actual performances. No one is agreeing with Obi's assessment in that article, they are actually pointing out WHY Seattle has made the revolving door on the line WORK, and actually excel in spite of it.

LMAO.



Laugh your ass off at this:

Summary: It’s amazing that the Seahawks got as far as they did with a line that struggled to open many holes, and a pass protection unit that was sieve-like. It got better when Patrick Lewis came in, but their poor play serves to only highlight how good the backs were, and how talented Russell Wilson is at extending plays.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... is-season/

I'm not "guessing" at anything. We had the worst W/L record since 2011. That's a fact.

RiverDog
Legacy

Posts: 4841
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:52 am
Location: Kennewick, WA, 99338


You were saying RD?

You will have to point out where... with underlines, italics, etc...it was that I said that our woes in our first nine games was SOLELY due to the play of our offensive line as you claimed I did. Perhaps you are getting me mixed up with Anthony.

[HumanCockroach]

Read the thread. The discussion is solely about your concern over the horrible line, inferior talent and worry. If you aren't willing to put the discussion in context, I'm not going to spoon feed you RD. As for "confusing" you with Anthony, I've never done that, however, your personal knock, and everyone else's, was his inability to see the "good and bad" in the play of certain players. What exactly are you doing with the line from last season? It isn't in this "black and white" right or wrong thing, despite your continued assertion to the contrary in multiple threads.

No where have I claimed "pride" or even said I was SATISFIED with the lines play, not ONE time in the three years the line has been "the" problem for many of you. Just because I SEE all of the play doesn't make me proud, or happy, it makes me capable of evaluating where they are at, where they can go, and what they can do...

You HAVE indeed inferred that the "line cost Seattle games they needed early in the year" in multiple places, which is ridiculous, they certainly haven't all by their lonesome. Maybe you've forgotten what you've posted?

Regardless, if people are going to whine incessantly about that line year after year after year, make claims that have zero grounds in reality ( things like they never improved, or leaked like a sieve all year etc) than I'm not in the least worried about doing so when someone lies about what I've said.

[NorthHawk]

I said they lost us games (others might have as well) - and I will stick to that. Perhaps RD quoted me and that's what you are referring to.
Cincinnati is one game where we couldn't get a single 1st down in 5 consecutive possessions late in the game. That one accomplishment would have been enough to run out the clock.
If we are such a good run team, shouldn't we have been able to get just 1 first down when it counted, and what area has the largest responsibility for grinding out 10 yards on the ground?
That game was there for the win and the loss fell on the OL, and no other area.

However, this year is a far different group than last year with some real big changes up front.
I get the impression that they want to get a line that is similar to the Super Bowl line in composition. Meaning a bigger RT than Gilliam and a big LG. I don't know enough about Webb to know if he also brings the nasty that Breno did, but he is a big guy at 6-7, 335lbs.
In my mind, it means the emphasis in the Draft will be on the interior (from an OL perspective), or at least players that can play G if they are T in college or play C if they were a G.

If they can quickly work well together, we could have a good group.

[RiverDog]

Read the thread. The discussion is solely about your concern over the horrible line, inferior talent and worry. If you aren't willing to put the discussion in context, I'm not going to spoon feed you RD. As for "confusing" you with Anthony, I've never done that, however, your personal knock, and everyone else's, was his inability to see the "good and bad" in the play of certain players. What exactly are you doing with the line from last season? It isn't in this "black and white" right or wrong thing, despite your continued assertion to the contrary in multiple threads.

No where have I claimed "pride" or even said I was SATISFIED with the lines play, not ONE time in the three years the line has been "the" problem for many of you. Just because I SEE all of the play doesn't make me proud, or happy, it makes me capable of evaluating where they are at, where they can go, and what they can do...

You HAVE indeed inferred that the "line cost Seattle games they needed early in the year" in multiple places, which is ridiculous, they certainly haven't all by their lonesome. Maybe you've forgotten what you've posted?

Regardless, if people are going to whine incessantly about that line year after year after year, make claims that have zero grounds in reality ( things like they never improved, or leaked like a sieve all year etc) than I'm not in the least worried about doing so when someone lies about what I've said.

The discussion was solely about OL concerns, but that does not mean that any of us... outside of Anthony... attributed 100% of our problems early in the year to the OL. And just as North Hawk suspected, I did not say that the OL cost us games. The furthest I've gone is to say that they were the #1 reason... not to be confused with the only reason.

So my challenge still stands: Highlight with italics or an underline exactly where it was that I said our problems in the first nine games was due SOLELY to the poor play of our offense.

[HumanCockroach]

Lol yeah ok RD. Hide however you want.

[HumanCockroach]

Yes, I do realize that, monkey, and I agree with you, except for one important aspect of the running game: 3rd/4th downs, which is one of the primary reasons why we had so many 4th quarter meltdowns last season

Or the defense could have covered a TE or they could have run out of an eye instead of a shotgun formation, run something other than a dive up Nowaks butt, thrown a pass for the necessary yardage on first and second down Wilson could have thrown to the wide open receivers and on and on and on...

[RiverDog]

Lol yeah ok RD. Hide however you want.

Failed again!

Now look, let's forget about these childish accusations. It's pretty pointless for the two of us to argue like a couple of grade schoolers. I'm on record as not being a fan of the current state of our offensive line and I'm just a little nervous about Pete's commitment to improve it:

http://espn.go.com/blog/seattle-seahawk ... good-shape

[HumanCockroach]

And I'm ok with that, the thing I have issues with is the refusal to acknowledge that teams win championships ( the whole team) not a QB or a offensive line or a defensive stud etc. The line had issues, I absolutely agree, but I will NEVER agree they were the sole issue in any one game, nor will I ever readily accept the "Wilson will have to run for his life" "there was no improvement" "they can't evaluate talent" all encompassing statements. They are NOT accurate. This team has been successful, and I don't profess to know ultimately what will happen, however after those successes, I'm at LEAST willing to actually see the product they field before writing them off, claiming career ending injuries to the QB or claiming they will be worse without having any knowledge to back that up.

I was simply pointing out facts about that line, they absolutely played poorly at points, but they absolutely WERE one of the best lines the last half of the season on the NFL. A LOT of things go in to that, not just the line talent, and if you're interested, feel free to look at my statements early in the year last season to correct those issues. I pointed them out 6 weeks before Seattle adjusted their schemes and plays ( the SAME adjustments I pointed out were the ones used from week ten on). I'm not a genius or claiming to know what's best, I do however know football, and how to adapt to what's occurring, and have a fairly solid ability to decern talent of players. Seattle's lineman last year were starting caliber players, doesn't make them the best lineman, but it doesn't make them the worst either.

[RiverDog]

And I'm ok with that, the thing I have issues with is the refusal to acknowledge that teams win championships ( the whole team) not a QB or a offensive line or a defensive stud etc. The line had issues, I absolutely agree, but I will NEVER agree they were the sole issue in any one game, nor will I ever readily accept the "Wilson will have to run for his life" "there was no improvement" "they can't evaluate talent" all encompassing statements. They are NOT accurate. This team has been successful, and I don't profess to know ultimately what will happen, however after those successes, I'm at LEAST willing to actually see the product they field before writing them off, claiming career ending injuries to the QB or claiming they will be worse without having any knowledge to back that up.

I was simply pointing out facts about that line, they absolutely played poorly at points, but they absolutely WERE one of the best lines the last half of the season on the NFL. A LOT of things go in to that, not just the line talent, and if you're interested, feel free to look at my statements early in the year last season to correct those issues. I pointed them out 6 weeks before Seattle adjusted their schemes and plays ( the SAME adjustments I pointed out were the ones used from week ten on). I'm not a genius or claiming to know what's best, I do however know football, and how to adapt to what's occurring, and have a fairly solid ability to decern talent of players. Seattle's lineman last year were starting caliber players, doesn't make them the best lineman, but it doesn't make them the worst either.

Neither did I. You are attributing a lot of those opinions to me when I never expressed them. If one person makes a critical remark, any of us that ever made a disparaging remark about the OL are getting painted with the same brush stroke. We have different levels of concern.

We are a lot closer to agreeing on this subject than we are disagreeing, Roach. Don't feel as if you have to fight me every time you see my handle.

I posted a link that I would appreciate a comment from, about Pete's comfort level with the current status of the offensive line. Are you comfortable with our OL as currently configured as Pete apparently is? If we don't draft a viable starter, make some sort of a deal, or pick up someone not currently on our roster, are you OK with the proposed OL?

[HumanCockroach]

What I'm comfortable with is Schneider and Carrolls ability to field a championship calibre team, at least until they don't. Beyond that, I'll wait, trust the guys that have created the perennial championship calibre team to continue to make those dicisions, whether I agree with them or not. I don't hear Pats fans lambasting Billichik not finding a running game, or choices to let talent go, trade all pro offensive lineman for picks, which created poor protection for an immobile QB, refusal to find a viable #1 receiver etc... Yet for some reason in Seattle, we seem to be unable to accept the success, and trust the guys delivering that success.

I hope the draft more guys, but I'm nowhere near panic, or even concern 6 months before they play a meaningful down.

[monkey]

Pete's raised the expectations bar here. It's almost like being a Yankee fan where anything less than a World Championship is a disappointment. That's one of the downsides to fielding championship teams: Fans expect more from you.

The only part of that I am in line with is the first sentence. After that you lost me completely.
Anything less than a championship is a disappointment? Seriously?
Good grief I hope Seahawks fans haven't become that spoiled in so short a time!
If fans are so stupid that they've allowed themselves to believe (like Yankees fans) that we somehow ought to win every year, then that is sheer idiocy.
Yes, Pete raised expectations. They couldn't have been any lower before he arrived. But if fans now have come to expect championships, when even most PATRIOTS fans aren't that stupid, then there's something wrong with the fans and their unrealistic expectations.

[monkey]

What I'm comfortable with is Schneider and Carrolls ability to field a championship calibre team, at least until they don't. Beyond that, I'll wait, trust the guys that have created the perennial championship calibre team to continue to make those dicisions, whether I agree with them or not..

HEAR HEAR!!
Now that is something I can get fully on board with!