As the draft approaches...

[RiverDog]

One of my buddies, a former poster at the PI and once in a blue moon here, thinks and hopes that assuming we hold onto the pick, that we'll take Ryan Kelly, a center out of Alabama with our #26 overall.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/ ... id=2555191

After doing some homework, I agree with my buddy, I think he'd be an excellent fit here. I love the bio on him, and I don't think that our brain trust is married to Patrick Lewis, that there's a reason why he couldn't beat out a first year center at the start of last season. At the very least, he'd add some depth in an area where we sorely need depth. He's supposedly pro ready, could be a starter by mid season.

Thoughts?

[mykc14]

One of my buddies, a former poster at the PI and once in a blue moon here, thinks and hopes that assuming we hold onto the pick, that we'll take Ryan Kelly, a center out of Alabama with our #26 overall.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/ ... id=2555191

After doing some homework, I agree with my buddy, I think he'd be an excellent fit here. I love the bio on him, and I don't think that our brain trust is married to Patrick Lewis, that there's a reason why he couldn't beat out a first year center at the start of last season. At the very least, he'd add some depth in an area where we sorely need depth. He's supposedly pro ready, could be a starter by mid season.

Thoughts?

I think Kelly is a pretty safe, solid pick and would be happy with the hawks picking him. With that being said, I don't think the hawks will. PC and JS seem to gravitate towards special, explosive, freaky athletic profiles with their first picks (really even their first 2 picks). If you look back on their drafts, including trades, you can really see this trend. Off the top of my head: graham (size/athletic freak) and frank Clark (one of the most athletic DL in draft), p-rich (elite speed) and Britt (although you might not think it he was one of the most athletic Lineman in this class), harvin (elite quickness/athletic ability) and Michael (tested off the charts athletically), Irvin (athletic freak) and wags (speed), carp (massive size/athletic ability ratio) and mofitt, okung and earl (both freakish athletic ability. I might be missing some but I think that is it.

I know early picks are typically going to be 'explosive' because they are super elite athletes, but my point is the hawks go for the elite of the elite in those respects and if they don't think that type of player is going to be available when they pick they go out and find that type of player (harvin and graham).

[NorthHawk]

I've bought into that observation, too mykc14. The only exception might be Carpenter. I don't know what his numbers were, but he didn't seem to be explosive off the ball.
Maybe it was being in bad shape after the lockout, again I don't know but it didn't seem to translate on the field.
Even though our FO goes after the measureables, there must be a place for guys that can actually play the game at a high level. The league is full of guys who may not measure well but play solidly on Sunday (or Monday, Thursday, sometimes Saturday). They are often the glue that makes things work.
How that fits into our FO's ranking formula isn't something we will ever know, but we have less than a week before we find out what they do.

Regarding Kelly, he might be ranked within a group of players that fit our criteria and if he's the the only one left on that tier he could be the pick like they did with Britt. I would think however that we would go in another direction and take a Guard who might have played Center or can play Center if the middle of the Oline is the focus at #26. We seem to like versatility along the OL to go along with the athleticism.
We'll find out soon and a DT or DE that can move inside might be a target or trading down if they think the tier is deep enough and some team wants to trade up.

[jshawaii22]

The Kiss of Death just happened... Todd McShay also picked him for our 1st Round pick.

js

[NorthHawk]

Chad Reuter on NFL.com has us taking the following, fwiw:

Round 1 (26): Germain Ifedi, OG, Texas A&M
Round 2 (56): Cody Whitehair, C, Kansas State
Round 3 (90): Tyler Ervin, RB, San Jose State
Round 3 (97): Rashard Robinson, CB, LSU
Round 4 (124): Sheldon Day, DT, Notre Dame
Round 5 (171): Dadi Nicolas, DE, Virginia Tech
Round 6 (215): Travis Feeney, OLB, Washington
Round 7 (225): Ricardo Louis, WR, Auburn
Round 7 (247): Jake McGee, TE, Florida

Not a bad result, but I expect them to select a DT earlier than the last part of the 4th.

[monkey]

I don't think we'll be picking at #26 anyway, I bet we trade down.

https://twitter.com/DraftCampbell/status/723927450766446592

See what I'm saying?
Broncos and Browns already looking for trade partners, and Schneider says it's the deepest draft yet. Seems inevitable at this point.

[Oly]

I also think we'll trade down, but I'm a terrible judge of OL talent (and, frankly, it seems much of the NFL is too, so I don't feel bad).

By the way, if that advice was barked at you, tell him to bark at us more often.

[NorthHawk]

They've traded down something like 3 of the five years, haven't they? So it's not like it would be strange to see it again.
Like I said before it depends on how they view the volume of talent of the tiers at the positions they are targeting this year and the distance down that is offered.

[HumanCockroach]

Yep, 3 of 5, with the other two being traded away entirely.

[jshawaii22]

If Cleveland offered us Joe Thomas for our #1 and one of our #3's would you take it?

[obiken]

IN A NY minute!

[HumanCockroach]

So who do you cut first?

[obiken]

IF we could, I should have added the caveat, Human. The problem is the 10 million dollar salary. How do we go around that?

[HumanCockroach]

That's why I asked. Truth is, it's a pipe dream, for a "seasoned" LT that might last 8 games or 5 years, I suppose if you cut Graham you could fit him in, but IMHO, that makes it more like two 1sts, a third, a pro bowl center, which makes it kind of steep.

[jshawaii22]

IF we could, I should have added the caveat, Human. The problem is the 10 million dollar salary. How do we go around that?

You cut Marshawn... that's about the only way to do it right now.

[jshawaii22]

IF we could, I should have added the caveat, Human. The problem is the 10 million dollar salary. How do we go around that?

Opps.. .double click...

[HumanCockroach]

Even after Lynch comes off the books you're short.

[jshawaii22]

I'd cut Browner... is his $785,000 enough?.. ha ha -- sorry, Just my opinion.

I thought we had 6 million last week, but that might of been before we signed all the restricted FA's. Not sure, but I'd find it if Thomas was an option.

[monkey]

I wouldn't make that deal, we have a LT already, and one I think will be our franchise LT.
What we need is a left guard, a center and a right tackle upgrade. Thomas doesn't help us with any of that, and would cost too much anyway.
Plus, he's getting old.
I like the plan the Seahawks are following now better, I think they know what they're doing. They've turned an athletic, un-drafted tight end into a left tackle, one who perfectly fits the zone blocking scheme, and whose run blocking is already an upgrade at the spot. I'm looking forward to GIlliam at LT.

[c_hawkbob]

I'm with Obi, you make the deal the instant it's offered and you do whatever it takes to make it work.

[NorthHawk]

We are going to have a young OL, so from that perspective it would be a bonus. However, like said above, he's getting old and I doubt he would make it through the year without losing time to injury even though hes's been injury free his whole career. It's said by some that what is demanded of our OL in our system is harder than most on the body and older players don't recover from injury as quickly as younger players.
I think a veteran Center would be a better choice if a veteran is to be added, but the entire middle of the OL needs an upgrade - both Guards and Center.

[c_hawkbob]

31 is not that old for an offensive lineman, and he's never missed a snap in his career, what makes you think he's gonna suddenly get brittle now?

[monkey]

I'd rather see us get a veteran center than LT.
The way Russell Wilson plays, we should be focusing on building up the interior of the o-line IMO.
Russell is elusive enough that he can deal with edge pressure, where he gets into trouble is pressure up the middle, (see Carolina playoff game). He was really making progress in his willingness to step up into the pocket and make throws, over the last half of the regular season, I'd like to see that trend continue by adding better players inside the tackles, like the Saints did for Brees, whose game Wilson patterns his after, and who is also short.
If we're going to overspend on an O-lineman, I'd rather it was the guy making the line calls in the middle.
Gilliam will do just fine at LT, but Britt at LG and Lewis at center though...yikes. Those two stink out loud.

[NorthHawk]

31 is not that old for an offensive lineman, and he's never missed a snap in his career, what makes you think he's gonna suddenly get brittle now?

Age and a more physically demanding scheme.

[monkey]

Age and a more physically demanding scheme.

Exactly. The ZBS is a scheme that really calls for a very specific type of blocker, one which I'm not sure Thomas would fit or not. He might, I don't know, but I'd be willing to guess that if he did, Cable would have already been pushing John and Pete to go get him.
It's not like they aren't aware that Thomas might be available, they know! They know and have decided not to pursue him, (at least so far) maybe because of his cost, maybe because they don't see him as a ZBS fit.

Again, I'd rather see them pick up a veteran center than LT. Our QB and our scheme have far more problems with guys coming up the middle than off the edge.
I want to see them upgrade LG and center more than any other position on the whole team. Britt and Lewis need to be replaced.

[NorthHawk]

I'd rather see us get a veteran center than LT.
The way Russell Wilson plays, we should be focusing on building up the interior of the o-line IMO.
Russell is elusive enough that he can deal with edge pressure, where he gets into trouble is pressure up the middle, (see Carolina playoff game). He was really making progress in his willingness to step up into the pocket and make throws, over the last half of the regular season, I'd like to see that trend continue by adding better players inside the tackles, like the Saints did for Brees, whose game Wilson patterns his after, and who is also short.
If we're going to overspend on an O-lineman, I'd rather it was the guy making the line calls in the middle.
Gilliam will do just fine at LT, but Britt at LG and Lewis at center though...yikes. Those two stink out loud.

I'll have to see Gilliam at LT to decide if he has what it takes there. In our scheme, I think he's a better fit at LT than RT, but he's like a draft pick at this point with a lot of potential.
We have some big concerns along this line - at every position. We don't know how well Webb will fit into what we do - he has the dimensions, but will he bring the power and attitude that has been successful for us at RT? Glowinski is supposed to be the one they want at one of the Guard spots, maybe replacing Sweezy. Perhaps he was pushing Sweezy last year and they thought the dropoff in play wouldn't be much to overcome. But, like Gilliam, he's just potential right now. Lewis might be better than Nowak, but what about Sokoli and his development? Can Britt improve enough at Guard to be effective most of the time? Will Sowell who couldn't start in Arizona be one of the answers?

There's potential for some good things on the OL, but there's the potential for disaster, too. Even with a top draft pick, the learning curves will be large for the starters playing different positions, newly in the NFL, and learning how to play with each other. I've said before, the CBA is a real hindrance to the OL's throughout the league and large changes can mean some surprisingly bad results for a time.

[RiverDog]

Exactly. The ZBS is a scheme that really calls for a very specific type of blocker, one which I'm not sure Thomas would fit or not. He might, I don't know, but I'd be willing to guess that if he did, Cable would have already been pushing John and Pete to go get him.
It's not like they aren't aware that Thomas might be available, they know! They know and have decided not to pursue him, (at least so far) maybe because of his cost, maybe because they don't see him as a ZBS fit.

So how was it that Cable thought that James Carpenter was a good enough fit as an OT in his ZBS that he dedicated a #1 draft choice to acquire him?

I doubt that the reason we aren't going aggressively for Thomas is because they don't see him as being a good ZBS fit. What is it about Thomas's lack of skills that's different than those we've had play the position in the past?

[c_hawkbob]

"Joe Thomas" and "lack of skills" are ludicrous in the same sentence.

He's the closest thing to another Walter Jones we're likely to see this generation. Walt could have played in any scheme and I believe the same to be true of Thomas. He's always done everything he's been asked, to assume he can't do a thing that he's not yet been asked to do makes little sense to me.

[Oly]

I'm also of the thought that interior pressure is what's killing the OL now. Even if they are super high on Glowinski, I think that the interior needs an upgrade. In a world where the Hawks had more cap room, I'd say that they should absolutely get Thomas and an interior player or three. But with a 10 mil salary, I just don't see how the Hawks could afford Thomas and shore up the interior line (I am thinking they might be saving some cap room to pick up a June cut).

[HumanCockroach]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... e-decline/

[monkey]

So how was it that Cable thought that James Carpenter was a good enough fit as an OT in his ZBS that he dedicated a #1 draft choice to acquire him?

I doubt that the reason we aren't going aggressively for Thomas is because they don't see him as being a good ZBS fit. What is it about Thomas's lack of skills that's different than those we've had play the position in the past?

Carpenter measured out as the most explosive lineman on the board when we picked him, and the drop off after was steep. That's why they took him.
And look at him, he's an outstanding run blocker, (just like Cable thought he would be) and on his second (big) contract with the Jets, and doing quite well there.

As for Thomas, I admitted that I don't know how they see him as a potential fit, but what I do know for certain is that his contract is unworkable at this time.
There's simply no upside to giving up multiple draft picks for a too expensive veteran left tackle, no matter how good he is.
If the Seahawks were concerned about LT and about Gilliam taking over, they would have re-signed Okung, MUCH cheaper.
They aren't though, they're sticking to the plan, and are convinced he will be fine.
So am I.

[monkey]

(I am thinking they might be saving some cap room to pick up a June cut).

I see that as a distinct possibility as well. There are always a few June cuts who end up costing less than the guys who go in the early part of free agency.

[monkey]

"Joe Thomas" and "lack of skills" are ludicrous in the same sentence.

He's the closest thing to another Walter Jones we're likely to see this generation. Walt could have played in any scheme and I believe the same to be true of Thomas. He's always done everything he's been asked, to assume he can't do a thing that he's not yet been asked to do makes little sense to me.

Thomas is terrific, I am not taking anything from him saying that he might not fit what they are looking for.
Yet you don't know how he would fit in a ZBS, neither do I.
You can guess logically that he's such a stud he'd kick butt in our system. I won't argue it, he might. I do know though, that the Seahawks are convinced that Gilliam will kick butt in our system, and is younger, won't cost any draft picks, and will be MUCH, MUCH cheaper.

[c_hawkbob]

Roach, that was written 9 months ago ... July 2015. It was questioning whether Thomas had lost it after a sub par (by their rating system, even while admitting the anomaly could be due to team issues) last few games of the 2014 season ...

The answer to the question the blog post posed was obviously "NO!" as Thomas was again 1st team All Pro for the 2015 season. As usual.

And Monkey, I know you're very high on Gilliam but I'm not yet convinced that "the Seahawks are convinced that Gilliam will kick butt in our system". It's too early in the offseason to make that evaluation IMO.

[HumanCockroach]

I didn't say one thing or another, I simply provided a link. Not sure what you are responding to. No where in this thread have I said a single thing negative about Thomas. I simply pointed out his cost doesn't work, he is older, and no one knows how long he has left. That includes you Bob.

[HumanCockroach]

I'd cut Browner... is his $785,000 enough?.. ha ha -- sorry, Just my opinion.

I thought we had 6 million last week, but that might of been before we signed all the restricted FA's. Not sure, but I'd find it if Thomas was an option.

Even if we had six and Lynch came off the books you're still short, you have to hold back about 3 million for injury replacements and have another 4 or so to sign rookies.... Mathematically speaking, you are taking about cutting a high priced current player to make it work.

[c_hawkbob]

I didn't say one thing or another, I simply provided a link. Not sure what you are responding to. No where in this thread have I said a single thing negative about Thomas. I simply pointed out his cost doesn't work, he is older, and no one knows how long he has left. That includes you Bob.

I haven't comment on anything you've said, just on your link.

[RiverDog]

I doubt that the reason we aren't going aggressively for Thomas is because they don't see him as being a good ZBS fit. What is it about Thomas's lack of skills that's different than those we've had play the position in the past?

Carpenter measured out as the most explosive lineman on the board when we picked him, and the drop off after was steep. That's why they took him.
And look at him, he's an outstanding run blocker, (just like Cable thought he would be) and on his second (big) contract with the Jets, and doing quite well there.

As for Thomas, I admitted that I don't know how they see him as a potential fit, but what I do know for certain is that his contract is unworkable at this time.
There's simply no upside to giving up multiple draft picks for a too expensive veteran left tackle, no matter how good he is.
If the Seahawks were concerned about LT and about Gilliam taking over, they would have re-signed Okung, MUCH cheaper.
They aren't though, they're sticking to the plan, and are convinced he will be fine.
So am I.[/quote]

That's not what Carpenter's head coach in college... Nick Saban, a guy that's seen a pro tackle or two..had to say about Carpenter. And it's not what Carpenter showed at the position as he was absolutely one of the worst OT's I've ever seen don a Hawk's uniform. True, he's a pretty good guard now...after he was nearly washed up and got beat out by a journeyman and wasn't even on the active roster for some games in our 2013 SB year...but his viability as a guard wasn't the point. The subject was his skills as a OT, which were horrible.

[jshawaii22]

I have no idea if Gilliam is the answer, but the entire line did better once Lewis settled in at center, Britt did better at LG and Gilliam did his job at RT. Moving the pieces around again is always a crapshoot, but as it's considered the most important position, the weak link on this line will be LT starting the year and then RT, as we have no-one to prop up Webb or whomever we draft or sign. Maybe Okung didn't even negotiate with us. Schneider never indicated it and I don't remember Okung going Tate and complaining about our offer being low.

The argument about not signing Thomas is valid over Cap Space, but not about our 'scheme'. That argument that Thomas didn't have experience in it might apply to Webb, any FA and any draft pick that doesn't play for us or one of the few teams left using the ZBS. That would sure limit our market.
I also thought one of the main components of the ZBS was being eliminated by penalty (high/low block)? Maybe it's time to move on from that and go back to a more conventional blocking scheme?

[HumanCockroach]

he's a pretty good guard now...after he was nearly washed up and got beat out by a journeyman and wasn't even on the active roster for some games in our 2013 SB year.

Carpenter was active for all 16 games in 2013. Not sure were you are coming up with that. Started ten, appeared in all 16 games. He did have some injury problems that year as well, but was never deactivated for a single game.

That's not what Carpenter's head coach in college... Nick Saban, a guy that's seen a pro tackle or two..had to say about Carpenter

.

The same Nick Saban who regularly gets blasted for trashing former players while boosting others? I'm not entirely sure I would hold his opinion higher than NFL coaches with significant success.

And it's not what Carpenter showed at the position as he was absolutely one of the worst OT's I've ever seen don a Hawk's uniform

He might have been 'one' of the worst, the worst though? That seems like a pretty significant stretch to me. Even with that being the case, he was always exactly what they had drafted, an excellent run blocker with strength to spare, who they identified as a liability in pass blocking and moved extremely quickly to a position his strengths suited better. He wasn't the first tackle to go through that transition, he won't be the last ( even on this team, with or without the coaches in place) the Seahawks value versatility amongst lineman, always have and always will. Seems to me, they draft players, NOT positions regardless of what many may desire. The same move was made with Britt ( and more than likely he'll develop into a nice starting caliber guard that people will bemoan "losing" in 3 years despite consistent complaints about him now, just the cycle Seattle fans continually churn through it seems).

At least they weren't top ten picks like many other more highly regarded tackles coming out in recent years. Truth is that all tackles struggle their first year, not just Carpenter ( pick 28) the continued amount of dismissing of that often baffles me. All teams have those issues with rookie tackles, it comes with the territory.