Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby kalibane » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:31 am

burrrton wrote:Generally speaking, they're not 'stopping people known to them', but rather they're patrolling high crime areas. Which is what you'd hope and expect if you want crime brought down in those areas and the people living there to be protected.


No it's not just because they are patrolling high crime areas where mostly black people live. This is an assumption you are making with no factual backup in order to rationalize your conclusion.

The report also noted black people still represented 83% of police stops in mixed neighborhoods and 66% of the stops in the district that is 77% white.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby nlbmsportin » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:30 pm

Good to know this forum still dives into the heavier stuff and I'm pretty heavily in agreement with kalibane. The use of statistics to support institutional discrimination against black people has been used for as long as there have been the concept of "black people". It's a way to seem "objective" or "color-blind" and to basically stop the conversation. I'll leave it at that until I have time to make a longer response to some of the things I've read.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby burrrton » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:56 pm

The use of statistics to support institutional discrimination against black people has been used for as long as there have been the concept of "black people". It's a way to seem "objective" or "color-blind" and to basically stop the conversation.


Oh for God's sake- just stop with the "You support institutional discrimination!" BS, nlbm. *Nobody* supports it, and everybody acknowledges there are bad cops and problems that need to be addressed, and it's offensive to suggest otherwise.

However, the refusal to look at all the factors that go into the situation such as it is in 2016 doesn't help.

"Driving while black" is a reprehensible thing for innocent African-Americans to have to put up with that should be trained out of the police force, meth should be treated the same as crack, and so on, but if both problems went away completely tomorrow, that's not going to change the fact that 2/3 of black households have no father, blacks commit a vastly disproportionate share of violent crime, and so on.

It's the people who don't want to be bothered with statistics (aka "facts") that are trying to stop the conversation, and them projecting their shortcomings on everyone else gets old fast. I'm out.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby HumanCockroach » Thu Aug 11, 2016 3:03 pm

So nice to have a person on the board who can explain to us simple folk, what statistics ( "facts") we should acknowledge and which to ignore....

LMFAO.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby monkey » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:21 pm

Holy crap you guys.
Ignoring statistics you don't like doesn't make them go away.
Those of you who are trying to completely dismiss stats you don't like, argue just like Andrew Luck supporters.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:24 pm

There's a difference between ignoring stats and understanding them. I'f not put in the proper context statistics (or any facts) are worse than useless.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby RiverDog » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:26 pm

nlbmsportin wrote:Good to know this forum still dives into the heavier stuff and I'm pretty heavily in agreement with kalibane. The use of statistics to support institutional discrimination against black people has been used for as long as there have been the concept of "black people". It's a way to seem "objective" or "color-blind" and to basically stop the conversation. I'll leave it at that until I have time to make a longer response to some of the things I've read.


Nice to see you, NLBM!
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby nlbmsportin » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:28 am

As Bob and others have pointed out repeatedly, statistics within themselves don't tell you anything. You need context as in history:

Slavery
Federally endorsed segregation
Discretionary policing
Discriminatory laws
Housing discrimination/Redlining
Mass incarceration (From the Black Codes to the War on Drugs)
Employment discrimination
Credit discrimination
Voting discrimination
Discrimination in jury selection
Discrimination in legal representation

You also need to be aware that the way these racial categories have been laid out have historically been to support black inferiority, white superiority, and even “intra-white” hierarchy (English vs Germans vs Italians vs Irish vs Eastern Europeans vs Jewish people). There’s this illusion that we’ve somehow “arrived” at an era of racial neutrality. In reality we just have laws that don’t explicitly disadvantage black and brown people. This is where these policies find their ability to resist real reform. You have to prove that there is explicit intent to discriminate based on race in a time when the majority of people don’t claim to be racist.

The percentage of white people willing to explicitly keep black people out of their neighborhood is at an all-time low. People go their whole lives without saying/hearing the word n***er used in a derogatory way or without encountering a lynching. We have a black family in the White House. I was able to go to UT instead of Prairie View A&M like my grandfather had to due solely because his race. This is progress that cannot be denied and is a testament to the people -- white, black, brown, or pink that strove for reducing the terrorizing of racial minorities. This also is what makes the conversation so hard to have in some respects. The threshold for what is now considered racism basically starts with a noose or a white hood. Everything else is just people playing the “race card”. Instead of using violence to silence minorities, the general public resorts to statistics without giving any context or solutions besides “we have to be tough on crime”. We can just ignore the post-Civil Rights era propaganda birthed by Goldwater/Nixon, made popular by Reagan, and made nearly bulletproof by Clinton. Welfare queens, crack babies, crack vs powder cocaine, Super Predators, etc. etc.

Now this does NOT say that there’s no component of personal responsibility involved. Individuals of all races, cultures, and creeds can squander their opportunities and the opportunities of their children. What it does say is that these statistics almost never accompany this historical context. However , they do accompany judgments and proposed courses of action in response to the statistics. The responses are usually posited as “neutral”, “just the facts”, or "objective":

“Black culture”
“Black on Black Crime”
“Blacks more inclined to violence”
“Blacks more inclined to promiscuity”
“Blacks less intelligent”
“Blacks less capable of assimilation” (Why can’t you be more like Asians, the model minority?)
“Blacks less willing to work”
“Blacks more likely to use and sale drugs”

Not only are all these “just the facts”, but since it’s a “color blind” society now:

“If you fail you probably just earned it”
“Don’t expect society to right generational wrongs”
“Slavery is over”
“My grandfather was an immigrant and made it so stop being a victim”
“I’m an immigrant so stop being a victim”
“Pick up your pants”
“Just comply”
“He had a weapon” (2nd Amendment though, right?)
“I feared for my life”
“Police have a hard job”
“I have black friends and they agree with me”
”Reverse racism”
“Stop being so PC”

I can go on and on, but this conversation is much better had over a beverage of each participant’s choice over a few hours. I don’t have all the right answers and don’t claim to be smarter than any of you I disagree with. All I ask is that you recognize that the core arguments behind BLM are rooted in centuries of grievances and pain that society has always found some way to invalidate. Statistics without context and sarcastically referring to the “Age of Obama” are just the latest forms.
Last edited by nlbmsportin on Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:46 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby nlbmsportin » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:30 am

RiverDog wrote:
Nice to see you, NLBM!


Good to see you too RD!
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby c_hawkbob » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:01 am

nlbmsportin wrote:As Bob and others have pointed out repeatedly, statistics within themselves don't tell you anything. You need context as in history:

Slavery
Federally endorsed segregation
Discretionary policing
Discriminatory laws
Housing discrimination/Redlining
Mass incarceration (From the Black Codes to the War on Drugs)
Employment discrimination
Credit discrimination
Voting discrimination
Discrimination in jury selection
Discrimination in legal representation

You also need to be aware that the way these racial categories have been laid out have historically been to support black inferiority, white superiority, and even “intra-white” hierarchy (English vs Germans vs Italians vs Irish vs Eastern Europeans vs Jewish people). There’s this illusion that we’ve somehow “arrived” at an era of racial neutrality. In reality we just have laws that don’t explicitly disadvantage black and brown people. This is where these policies find their ability to resist real reform. You have to prove that there is explicit intent to discriminate based on race in a time when the majority of people don’t claim to be racist.

The percentage of white people willing to explicitly keep black people out of their neighborhood is at an all-time low. People go their whole lives without saying/hearing the word n***er used in a derogatory way or without encountering a lynching. We have a black family in the White House. I was able to go to UT instead of Prairie View A&M like my grandfather had to due solely because his race. This is progress that cannot be denied and is a testament to the people -- white, black, brown, or pink that strove for reducing the terrorizing of racial minorities. This also is what makes the conversation so hard to have in some respects. The threshold for what is now considered racism basically starts with a noose or a white hood. Everything else is just people playing the “race card”. Instead of using violence to silence minorities, the general public resorts to statistics without giving any context or solutions besides “we have to be tough on crime”. We can just ignore the post-Civil Rights era propaganda birthed by Goldwater/Nixon, made popular by Reagan, and made nearly bulletproof by Clinton. Welfare queens, crack babies, crack vs powder cocaine, Super Predators, etc. etc.

Now this does NOT say that there’s no component of personal responsibility involved. Individuals of all races, cultures, and creeds can squander their opportunities and the opportunities of their children. What it does say is that these statistics almost never accompany this historical context. However , they do accompany judgments and proposed courses of action in response to the statistics. The responses are usually posited as “neutral”, “just the facts”, or "objective":

“Black culture”
“Black on Black Crime”
“Blacks more inclined to violence”
“Blacks more inclined to promiscuity”
“Blacks less intelligent”
“Blacks less capable of assimilation” (Why can’t you be more like Asians, the model minority?)
“Blacks less willing to work”
“Blacks more likely to use and sale drugs”

Not only are all these “just the facts”, but since it’s a “color blind” society now:

“If you fail you probably just earned it”
“Don’t expect society to right generational wrongs”
“Slavery is over”
“My grandfather was an immigrant and made it so stop being a victim”
“I’m an immigrant so stop being a victim”
“Pick up your pants”
“Just comply”
“He had a weapon” (2nd Amendment though, right?)
“I feared for my life”
“Police have a hard job”
“I have black friends and they agree with me”
”Reverse racism”
“Stop being so PC”

I can go on and on, but this conversation is much better had over a beverage of each participant’s choice over a few hours. I don’t have all the right answers and don’t claim to be smarter than any of you I disagree with. All I ask is that you recognize that the core arguments behind BLM are rooted in centuries of grievances and pain that society has always found some way to invalidate. Statistics without context and sarcastically referring to the “Age of Obama” are just the latest forms.


Nice.

Welcome back young man, this is a better forum with you around.
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:04 pm

Very well presented reply, nlbmsportin.
It's good to see you back so don't disappear again.

Did you finish your degree? Engineering, wasn't it?
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby Hawk Sista » Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:31 am

Fantastic points, Sport'n. I'm finding my discussions on the subject of BLM are pretty divisive. Most of my friends/family (we all have that overtly racist uncle) at least get it that we don't fully get it. Still, many people are really digging their heels in and resisting a more whole understanding of the issues.... Probably, in part, because it feels like "they" are being called racists. As you point out, one need not be a clansman to be swept up and lose sight (or never look to see) the cenuries long map to how we got to where we are....and while most Americans are not overtly racist, there is a refusal to understand (or even seek to learn about) the systemic and institutional inequities. If those exist.... Then who do we blame?

Perhaps we should experiment with their families...say for 300 years. Starting with slavery (and the associated violence/rape/murder/selling off kids & spouses/horrible living conditions etc...), legally disparate treatment (& continued violence), segregation, overt and then more covert discrimination. Then after a few decades of the more covert variety of racial discrimination, we can jump up and say "get over it already." I know - it's an oversimplified point. But really!!

It's so nice to see you here. Stick around, would ya!
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Re: Bennett is asking athletes to promote social change

Postby savvyman » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:28 pm

Get over it already.

Clint Eastwood may be right - we have become "Pussy Nation"

The only people that really do not deal - and have never dealt with any real form of discrimination in this country - are upper-income white entitled people.

Everyone one else - including middle class, working class & poor whites have to deal with discrimination also from the upper class entitled whites.

Now do people of color deal with more discrimination at more severe strength? Probably yes this is true. - but nothing like what their parents and most certainly their grandparents experienced.

However, if you learn a skill or get an education in knowledge that the economy values - be polite and respectful to people that you encounter - - work hard and show up on time - obey the laws - -then there is no inherent discrimination barriers left that will prevent you from being a successful adult in the USA today.

And for the record- if there is one classification of people that for the most part I can't stand - its not black people, Hispanics, gays, Asian - its entitled white people. I have had enough of these assholes for one lifetime.
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