Kaepernick

[RiverDog]

Isn't he doing exactly what the flag represents?
Isn't the country and philosophy built upon freedoms including and maybe most importantly the freedom of speech or non violent action?
I would think that the founders would be pleased that some 240 years after their efforts, this most basic of freedoms still exists even if it is perceived by some as offensive.
After all, if someone is coerced, cowed, forced, or otherwise pressured into conforming even though they disagree with something, are they truly free?
Maybe he should be celebrated for exercising this most basic of freedoms because it's what, like you said "so many millions gave their lives for over the past 2.5 centuries".

No, that's not what the flag represents. The flag represents the nation, and in almost every case, it or its colors are used to identify our nations citizens and other animate and inanimate objects, whether it be athletes in the Olympics or some other international sporting event, the country of origin on packages, ships that need to identify where their home port is, military vessels/vehicles/aircraft/uniforms, etc.

It does not represent just white America, which is what Kaepernick seems to be protesting. Like it or not, it represents EVERYONE, so when he's not standing and facing the flag when asked, he's poking his finger in my eye.

There's a million frigging ways he can express his freedoms. He doesn't need to sit during the national anthem to prove that he's a free man.

[kalibane]

Here is the thing Riv. I respect your position on the flag and the Anthem. I get what it means to you and I won't say you're wrong for it. But other people have a different relationship with the flag than you do. A different relationship with the Anthem then you do.

I'm not drawing a direct equivalency but this example is just to illustrate the flaw in your logic in terms of why how you feel about the flag means Kaepernick needs to feel the same way. The flag existed when slavery was still going. It existed through Jim Crow and segregation. It existed while Japanese Americans were forcibly moved to interment camps. It existed before woman's suffrage. By your logic since this was still their country they were bound to respect the flag because it represents all of America even though America was actively denying them equal rights.

I say this to make this point. A lot of black people have a very different relationship with the flag and the Anthem than you do. Not that very many hate the flag or the Anthem but it is far more complex and conflicted and often times ambivalent. And if you think about what black people have gone through in this country that should make sense. I'm sure that we've all read a lot of articles about this whole Kaepernick thing so I'm betting you've been reminded by now about the third verse of the Anthem that states, stating “No refuge could save the hireling & slave / From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave.”.

Now for anyone else I don't need lessons on the context of that line, I know the history. But how do you expect black people to relate to that? It's not like he's just railing against his enemy in the war. His primary enemies were the British and yet the song at no point mentions the British but goes out of it's way to revel in killing escaped slaves. I'm betting you've never even had to think about it. But once you know that fact as a black person you can't unknow it. And now here you are saying that he should be required to show respect to a song that celebrated killing people who looked like him (and yes there were slaves who looked like him).

And sure the song was written in the era of slavery, and sure we no longer sing that verse. But the verse is still there. And the song wasn't adopted as the national anthem until 65 years after slavery ended, so they looked at the song were like "eh...".

I'm not saying this one thing justifies what Kaepernick did. But there are a lot things ranging from the end of slavery right up to modern times where the ideals in the Anthem just haven't been applied equally. So if you put yourself in the shoes of an African American taking all that into account, isn't it pretty easy to see how they might not have the same affection and pride that you do? You think Kaepernick not standing is a thumb in your eye. Maybe Kaepernick thinks your unwavering reverence is a tacit endorsement of the mistreatment of black people. He wouldn't be accurate in that belief whatsoever. But then maybe your read isn't quite accurate either.

Honestly, I think that's the biggest problem with this whole thing including Kaepernick's choice. No one thinks about or cares about what these things might mean or not mean to the "other guy". Personally, I respect your view and would never take it away from you or tell you your wrong. By the same token I don't think Kaepernick was wrong either.

[NorthHawk]

No, that's not what the flag represents. The flag represents the nation, and in almost every case, it or its colors are used to identify our nations citizens and other animate and inanimate objects, whether it be athletes in the Olympics or some other international sporting event, the country of origin on packages, ships that need to identify where their home port is, military vessels/vehicles/aircraft/uniforms, etc.

It does not represent just white America, which is what Kaepernick seems to be protesting. Like it or not, it represents EVERYONE, so when he's not standing and facing the flag when asked, he's poking his finger in my eye.

So you want to take away his freedom to protest, whatever his point?
I can only guess that you believe people are free to have their opinions and demonstrate them as long as they conform to your views.

That's not how it works in a truly free society. There's a reason that freedom of speech (and that includes silent protest) is the First Amendment.
It's a fundamental component for a free society to remain so and any restrictions diminish freedom for all.

Look at history and you will find that those societies or nations that lost their freedoms more often than not paid in blood getting them back - if they ever did.
Don't let today's emotion permit the darkness of restrictions on freedom to get a foothold.
It may not be nice what people have to say. It may not even be correct, but everyone has to be able to state their views on what they see in this world because the alternative is a place where nobody wants to be.

[Hawk Sista]

Honestly, I think that's the biggest problem with this whole thing including Kaepernick's choice. No one thinks about or cares about what these things might mean or not mean to the "other guy". Personally, I respect your view and would never take it away from you or tell you you’re wrong. By the same token I don't think Kaepernick was wrong either.

Excellent post, Kal. I appreciated the whole thing but copied and pasted the above as it gets at the heart of what I tried to communicate earlier. When I said “this is a conversation we should be able to have as a country if we are as great as we profess to be.” … I did not mean that there is no current discourse on the matter; I meant that there is more name-calling and ground-standing then a real desire to understand the vantage point of others. IMHO, the latter is labeled as “PC” or the pussification of America these days.

You did a nice job of summing up some of my thoughts, and I appreciate it.

[burrrton]

I meant that there is more name-calling and ground-standing then a real desire to understand the vantage point of others. IMHO, the latter is labeled as “PC” or the pussification of America these days.

When everyone wants to pretend like it's still 1966, this discussion *is* the pussification of America. Having a bigot look at you sideways isn't the same as having the dogs and fire-hoses turned on you. And no, it's not the same ballpark, nor the same *game*.

Sorry, Kaep, you're not Emmett Till because you got called a ni**er on the internet, you insult his memory for implying as much, and no, I'm not 'not down' with your struggle for letting you in on that.

The majority of us have *had* the conversation, and understand *well* the "vantage point" of others (and most of us have lived it as well). Kaepernick *ain't* living it. If you did a Samantha Stevens and nose-twitched away every over-reacting (and worse) cop, and every incident of "driving while black", and every other trace of true "white racism", it won't change the situation for 99% of blacks in this country *an iota*.

Because none of that is what decided most of their situations. It doesn't seem to be as exhilarating to soberly discuss what would actually make a difference, though. Instead everyone wants to talk about how they were discriminated against once, as if that's a unique and life-defining experience.

So you want to take away his freedom to protest, whatever his point?

Where did you get that from his post?

[nlbmsportin]

Kaepernick didn't have the experience of Philando Castile. He didn't even get killed in his alleged run ins with police and has all this money!

Why are we rioting about Castile who obviously was pulled over that many times for a reason? Police have a really hard job you know. Do you even realize how gruesome the death of James Byrd, Jr was?

But then James was an anomaly in a time in which people could now be sent to jail for that kind of stuff. Now Emmett Till was a 14-year old kid who had the nerve to flirt with a white woman, and no one paid for it.

Yeah but then again Emmett Till didn't have the experience of Jesse Washington. They didn't even burn Emmett, and didn't display him in the town center for the spectacle of it.

Sure but Jesse Washington was never a slave, so what did he know of struggle? Maybe he shouldn't have been accused of murder and rape against a white woman, and that wouldn't have happened to him. He was a free man so it was a nicer time then, there's no excuses.

The slaves in the United States had it easy compared to the slaves in the sugar colonies!

The slaves on the sugar plantations should have been grateful to be apart of civilization! After all these centuries can't you just stop bitching about being oppressed?

[burrrton]

You couldn't just save everyone some time and say "But Washington owned slaves!"? Or maybe blow everyone's mind with "But Jim Crow was half a century ago!"

Great examples, nlbm, but eliminate *every last one of them*, and the situation for 99.9% of every minority in this country in 2016 doesn't change *an iota*.

Because none of them illustrate the reason any minority is in whatever disadvantaged position they find themselves (except by the most tortured, tangential argument).

Which is why we still sit here with zero examples of people demonstrating this common, oppressive system the USA puts minorities in, and instead point to one in literally a million to supposedly prove a "rule" some professional victim imagined.

Quit hollering "BUT SLAVERY!", or "BUT RACISTS!"**, and show everyone the system the USA has in place in 2016 that Kaepernick is whining about.

**We all acknowledge slavery took place, and started black people out at a disadvantage, and that racists exist, and should be shunned with all the ire anyone can manage. That doesn't get you to "THE USA IS AN OPPRESSIVE SOCIETY IN 2016", though. I think this argument is BS and I'll take a baseball bat to anyone calling any friend of mine an n-bomb, and that's the case for most of the country and we both know it.

[edit]

Look, I'm out- this is the most tired conversation imaginable. If you want to continue thinking you've found a fresh take on this, or keep envisioning yourself as some victim of white supremacy with all the advantages this country offers you in the 21st century, be my guest. Just don't act surprised when you get patted on the head condescendingly for rioting over some asshole getting shot for trying to take a cop's gun.

[RiverDog]

Here is the thing Riv. I respect your position on the flag and the Anthem. I get what it means to you and I won't say you're wrong for it. But other people have a different relationship with the flag than you do. A different relationship with the Anthem then you do.

I'm not drawing a direct equivalency but this example is just to illustrate the flaw in your logic in terms of why how you feel about the flag means Kaepernick needs to feel the same way. The flag existed when slavery was still going. It existed through Jim Crow and segregation. It existed while Japanese Americans were forcibly moved to interment camps. It existed before woman's suffrage. By your logic since this was still their country they were bound to respect the flag because it represents all of America even though America was actively denying them equal rights.

I say this to make this point. A lot of black people have a very different relationship with the flag and the Anthem than you do. Not that very many hate the flag or the Anthem but it is far more complex and conflicted and often times ambivalent. And if you think about what black people have gone through in this country that should make sense. I'm sure that we've all read a lot of articles about this whole Kaepernick thing so I'm betting you've been reminded by now about the third verse of the Anthem that states, stating “No refuge could save the hireling & slave / From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave.”.

Now for anyone else I don't need lessons on the context of that line, I know the history. But how do you expect black people to relate to that? It's not like he's just railing against his enemy in the war. His primary enemies were the British and yet the song at no point mentions the British but goes out of it's way to revel in killing escaped slaves. I'm betting you've never even had to think about it. But once you know that fact as a black person you can't unknow it. And now here you are saying that he should be required to show respect to a song that celebrated killing people who looked like him (and yes there were slaves who looked like him).

And sure the song was written in the era of slavery, and sure we no longer sing that verse. But the verse is still there. And the song wasn't adopted as the national anthem until 65 years after slavery ended, so they looked at the song were like "eh...".

I'm not saying this one thing justifies what Kaepernick did. But there are a lot things ranging from the end of slavery right up to modern times where the ideals in the Anthem just haven't been applied equally. So if you put yourself in the shoes of an African American taking all that into account, isn't it pretty easy to see how they might not have the same affection and pride that you do? You think Kaepernick not standing is a thumb in your eye. Maybe Kaepernick thinks your unwavering reverence is a tacit endorsement of the mistreatment of black people. He wouldn't be accurate in that belief whatsoever. But then maybe your read isn't quite accurate either.

Honestly, I think that's the biggest problem with this whole thing including Kaepernick's choice. No one thinks about or cares about what these things might mean or not mean to the "other guy". Personally, I respect your view and would never take it away from you or tell you your wrong. By the same token I don't think Kaepernick was wrong either.

Jim Crow? Japanese internment? You forgot about the Trail of Tears.

You're grasping for straws if you're trying to compare the situation in 2016 to that of the 3 previous centuries. Those situations were on one helluva lot larger scale than the current situation in 2016.

What I expressed about the flag was an objective observation, not what it meant to me. It was a statement of fact. The flag is used to represent all US citizens and identifies to others our country of origin as well as the country of origin of millions of inanimate objects. That's a fact that you cannot dispute.

I really don't know specifically what it is that Kaepernick is protesting, and what it is he expects to change. Is it the Black Lives Matter, a.k.a. unjustified police shootings? Arrest rates? Economic differences? All he said was this generic, all inclusive "treatment of people of color". Sounds to me that he's a rebel without a cause. And what is it that he expects to change? Is there any situation that might happen that would cause him to think that whatever problem he's protesting has been resolved and that he will now stand and face the flag during the anthem?

About the only thing Kaepernick has done is that he's injected himself with U-235. This pretty much guarantees that Blaine Gabbert will be the starter for the Niners. He's openly expressed his desire for a trade but there's no way that other teams, even those that are desperate for a QB such as the Vikings and Cowboys, are going to take on his baggage, and he's pretty much killed any marketing opportunity he might have had. Don't be surprised if you see him get cut. Perhaps he can go to Canada and protest their anthem. I'm sure that there must be something in their history that pisses him off.

[kalibane]

Like I said. The biggest problem is people aren't listening. I'm going to forgive your tone in that last post because of your passion on the issue. But you are not listening.

Now Kaepernick spoke with reporters for 18 minutes on Sunday. He spoke at length. He didn't dodge, he didn't obfuscate, he didn't hedge. He answered every question that was asked in a frank, intelligent and direct manner, something that is pretty uncharacteristic for him actually. If you haven't watched this question and answer session go watch it. If you have and still don't understand why he's protesting then it's because you choose not to understand because it certainly isn't hard and you are certainly intelligent enough to grasp it if you care to.

Now as it relates to what you said about my last post. I was trying to help you understand why a lot of black people don't feel the same way as you do about the flag and about the anthem. If you didn't get it then maybe I didn't do a very good job. But make no mistake, I was explaining. I wasn't presenting an argument. It's not up for debate. I'm telling you how it is and how a large portion of the black community feels. So no, I am not "grasping at straws".

It doesn't matter that Jim Crow, Internment Camps and Slavery don't exist anymore. Like I said I was using those examples to illustrate the flaw in your logic. The fact that those things no longer exist does not change the logic. And if it was flawed then it is flawed now because logic is logic. There are rules. Those rules don't change.

Furthermore, whether people actually went through those things or not, our values are informed by not just our experience, but by history and by what our families went through. I have friends with living relatives who were sharecroppers. My father who served 26 years in the Air Force, 2 tours in Vietnam and then worked the rest of his career in the VA as a vocational rehabilitation officer in order to help vets, had to ride in the back of the bus when he went to boot camp. Do you honestly think he felt the same way about America as your father? Do you honestly think he went out of his way to instill the belief about the greatness of America like your Father? Of course not because to him America was not as great as it was for your father. Now he didn't run down America, he had pride in America, but it was not as intense because of what he experienced.

You think Kaepernick is arrogant and uniformed because he doesn't understand the country, the flag or the Anthem in the same way you understand it. I'm also betting you've never had a gun pulled and pointed at your head in a routine traffic stop as he has. So it is also arrogant and uninformed for you to act like you understand racism and how it has affected him and other minorities in the way he or other minorities do. You don't get to determine how trivial racism is. You don't get to say well Jim Crow doesn't exist so it's not as bad as it used to be even though you can be shot with impunity like Philando Castille or Jon Crawford or Tamir Rice.

It is long past time that people stop thinking their experience and their feelings speak for everyone. The hashtag #Veterans for Kaepernick has been trending #1 on Twitter for about 15-20 hours which is not insignificant if you have no experience with Twitter. There are many people who don't feel the same way as you about this issue and while that doesn't require you to feel that way too it's time that you accept that other people aren't required to feel the same way as you either. And when they don't it's not a character deficiency or a lack of intelligence or wrong in anyway.

"I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag. I know that I am a black man in a white world." - Jackie Robinson 1972 (After Jim Crow, segregation, interment camps were over)

[Hawktawk]

Jesus Kap has become the Donald Trump of the NFL. He says and does a bunch of stupid stuff and a hardcore 30% support him and make a cause out of it.

It isn't the message as much as the messenger that just peeves me in both cases.

This isn't about racism. This isn't some noble courageous position. This is Kap getting what he wanted all along. Relevancy. And folks are sucking it up.
If I'm the 9ers coach and team I want this cancer GONE.IMO this was as much about Kap making it harder to cut him than anything else. Make Kap great again.

[RiverDog]

Like I said. The biggest problem is people aren't listening. I'm going to forgive your tone in that last post because of your passion on the issue. But you are not listening.

Now Kaepernick spoke with reporters for 18 minutes on Sunday. He spoke at length. He didn't dodge, he didn't obfuscate, he didn't hedge. He answered every question that was asked in a frank, intelligent and direct manner, something that is pretty uncharacteristic for him actually. If you haven't watched this question and answer session go watch it. If you have and still don't understand why he's protesting then it's because you choose not to understand because it certainly isn't hard and you are certainly intelligent enough to grasp it if you care to.

Now as it relates to what you said about my last post. I was trying to help you understand why a lot of black people don't feel the same way as you do about the flag and about the anthem. If you didn't get it then maybe I didn't do a very good job. But make no mistake, I was explaining. I wasn't presenting an argument. It's not up for debate. I'm telling you how it is and how a large portion of the black community feels. So no, I am not "grasping at straws".

It doesn't matter that Jim Crow, Internment Camps and Slavery don't exist anymore. Like I said I was using those examples to illustrate the flaw in your logic. The fact that those things no longer exist does not change the logic. And if it was flawed then it is flawed now because logic is logic. There are rules. Those rules don't change.

Furthermore, whether people actually went through those things or not, our values are informed by not just our experience, but by history and by what our families went through. I have friends with living relatives who were sharecroppers. My father who served 26 years in the Air Force, 2 tours in Vietnam and then worked the rest of his career in the VA as a vocational rehabilitation officer in order to help vets, had to ride in the back of the bus when he went to boot camp. Do you honestly think he felt the same way about America as your father? Do you honestly think he went out of his way to instill the belief about the greatness of America like your Father? Of course not because to him America was not as great as it was for your father. Now he didn't run down America, he had pride in America, but it was not as intense because of what he experienced.

You think Kaepernick is arrogant and uniformed because he doesn't understand the country, the flag or the Anthem in the same way you understand it. I'm also betting you've never had a gun pulled and pointed at your head in a routine traffic stop as he has. So it is also arrogant and uninformed for you to act like you understand racism and how it has affected him and other minorities in the way he or other minorities do. You don't get to determine how trivial racism is. You don't get to say well Jim Crow doesn't exist so it's not as bad as it used to be even though you can be shot with impunity like Philando Castille or Jon Crawford or Tamir Rice.

It is long past time that people stop thinking their experience and their feelings speak for everyone. The hashtag #Veterans for Kaepernick has been trending #1 on Twitter for about 15-20 hours which is not insignificant if you have no experience with Twitter. There are many people who don't feel the same way as you about this issue and while that doesn't require you to feel that way too it's time that you accept that other people aren't required to feel the same way as you either. And when they don't it's not a character deficiency or a lack of intelligence or wrong in anyway.

"I cannot stand and sing the anthem. I cannot salute the flag. I know that I am a black man in a white world." - Jackie Robinson 1972 (After Jim Crow, segregation, interment camps were over).

No tone intended, Kal. I'm actually not excited at all. We were friends before this issue arose and we'll be friends afterwards.

Good thing you didn't bet any money, because you would have lost. I have had a gun pulled on me by a cop during what I thought was a traffic stop. No lie, it happened in Spokane and they were looking for a suspect that had held up a Circle K, and my car fit the description. It was 1975, and I was underage and had been drinking. I made the mistake of getting out of the car as I was told it helped show the cop that you weren't drunk.

I won't pretend to understand what it means to be a non white in this society, but I do think I have a little better grasp than most people in my demographic group as for nearly 40 years, I've worked with, partied with, slept with, about 70% minorities or people that weren't born in this country by virtue of my being a supervisor of mostly unskilled and semi skilled laborers. My only daughter (that I know of) is half Hispanic and my only two nephews are half black. Like you, I am a student of history, and unlike you, I grew up during the civil rights movement. So I don't think it's fair on your part to make an assumption about just what experiences I've had or haven't had over the course of my 61 years on this planet.

I'm not sure what part of my logic it is that you claim to be flawed. Was it my logic that the flag represents all of us, or was it that Kaep's actions has caused himself to become radioactive?

I don't doubt that Kaepernick as since articulated his protest. He had to have, as his first explanation was completely inadequate. Not having read or heard what he's said lately, I'm sure that now, after he's had the chance to really think about it and draw on examples such as Jim Crow and Japanese internment, that he has come up what sounds like a very thoughtful creed.

One thing I do know for sure is that this protest of his is not uniting us, it's dividing us. There's other ways of expressing yourself or bringing an issue to light without using a middle finger. It's not that I disagree with all or any protests or demonstrations, but this one is extremely polarizing. IMO some if not most of the organized BLM protests turned out extremely well, with white cops crossing the yellow tape and embracing black protesters. That type of acceptance/understanding forwards things.

[kalibane]

You essentially stated that because the flag represents us all, that it is still his country and therefore he owes the flag and the Anthem his respect regardless of what issues he has with society writ large or how well the country is living up to its stated ideals.

That makes no sense when you look at it through the lens of people who are not being given their full rights under the law. On a smaller scale would you continue to respect a company that was denying you equal and fair treatment just because they give you a paycheck? Would you show reverence? And whether you agree with Kaepernick or not, that is his position. That is what he believes. Maybe history will prove him to be lacking substance on this stance. But the first amendment exists precisely for situations like this when what you're doing is unpopular with other people.

One thing I do know for sure is that this protest of his is not uniting us, it's dividing us. There's other ways of expressing yourself or bringing an issue to light without using a middle finger. It's not that I disagree with all or any protests or demonstrations, but this one is extremely polarizing.

People said the same things about Rosa Parks. They said the same things about Ali. They said the same things about John Carlos and Tommie Smith. It is only through the lens of decades of lapsed time that people came to embrace those actions. When they were actually happening they were considered disruptive, divisive, disrespectful and un-American.

I'm sure you mean well when you say this. But it is honestly one of the most tiresome and loathsome rebuttals to protests. If the people in the Civil Rights Movement limited themselves to action which people outside of the Civil Rights Movement (not just those who fought against it but those who were okay with their cause but not their methods) were comfortable with, to methods they found acceptably respectful, they would not have Civil Rights today. That's not speculation. When a protest doesn't bother you, it's easy to ignore and progress rarely follows. Whether it was black rights, women's rights or gay rights no major progress was made until they became "disruptive".

Regarding your stop with the Police. That's a little different, I still don't like it but it's a little different. They were looking for a robbery suspect. It was not a routine stop. Allegedly Kaepernick had a gun in his face at a routine traffic stop.

[RiverDog]

You essentially stated that because the flag represents us all, that it is still his country and therefore he owes the flag and the Anthem his respect regardless of what issues he has with society writ large or how well the country is living up to its stated ideals.

That makes no sense when you look at it through the lens of people who are not being given their full rights under the law. On a smaller scale would you continue to respect a company that was denying you equal and fair treatment just because they give you a paycheck? Would you show reverence? And whether you agree with Kaepernick or not, that is his position. That is what he believes. Maybe history will prove him to be lacking substance on this stance. But the first amendment exists precisely for situations like this when what you're doing is unpopular with other people.

"One thing I do know for sure is that this protest of his is not uniting us, it's dividing us. There's other ways of expressing yourself or bringing an issue to light without using a middle finger. It's not that I disagree with all or any protests or demonstrations, but this one is extremely polarizing."

People said the same things about Rosa Parks. They said the same things about Ali. They said the same things about John Carlos and Tommie Smith. It is only through the lens of decades of lapsed time that people came to embrace those actions. When they were actually happening they were considered disruptive, divisive, disrespectful and un-American.

I'm sure you mean well when you say this. But it is honestly one of the most tiresome and loathsome rebuttals to protests. If the people in the Civil Rights Movement limited themselves to action which people outside of the Civil Rights Movement (not just those who fought against it but those who were okay with their cause but not their methods) were comfortable with, to methods they found acceptably respectful, they would not have Civil Rights today. That's not speculation. When a protest doesn't bother you, it's easy to ignore and progress rarely follows. Whether it was black rights, women's rights or gay rights no major progress was made until they became "disruptive".

Regarding your stop with the Police. That's a little different, I still don't like it but it's a little different. They were looking for a robbery suspect. It was not a routine stop. Allegedly Kaepernick had a gun in his face at a routine traffic stop.

I never said that Kaepernick should respect the flag or the anthem, simply that IMO he should stand and face the flag so as not to offend others. You can still not respect it while not disrespecting others. IMO he can pick a better way to express his thoughts than this very offensive gesture, no less offensive than flipping the bird or hanging a BA. His protest is too indiscriminate, like carpet bombing to get rid of the bad guys.

I don't agree with your Rosa Parks analogy. Parks never even intended to protest. She was simply tired after a long day's work and didn't feel like surrendering her seat. It's what happened later, when blacks and even some whites began sitting in opposite sections in order to protest segregation, that the civil rights movement, which actually had been going on almost since the end of the Civil War, was credited with its beginnings. That was one of the beauties of the civil rights movement, that it extended across racial lines and eventually helped make us a better country. I don't see that happening in Kaep's protest.

I never did embrace John Carlos and Tommy Smith's actions in the Mexico City Olympics, and I think you're making a huge assumption that it has been embraced by a majority. IMO that's not what advanced the civil rights movement. What advanced the civil rights movement was Martin Luther King's appealing to the rational minds of the establishment. He was able to articulate what the movement was all about.

As far as my traffic stop of some 40 years ago, I don't see what difference it makes what the police's intentions were, at least not at that moment when I was staring down the barrel of a .38. I still had a gun pointed at my head and might not be here had I made a sudden movement, so if that's what Kaep experienced, I can most definitely identify with what must have been going through his mind at that instant. That doesn't mean that I know what it means to be a minority. I was simply responding to your somewhat biased assumptions. I ain't some naïve rich white kid that lives on Snob Hill and has never had to work for a living, which is what I felt you were portraying me as.

I do want to thank you for this civil discussion we're having. It's something you don't get in the political blogs and why I no longer engage in them. I'm not ignoring what you're saying, to the contrary, I am processing your thoughts and am hoping that you're doing the same with mine.

[nlbmsportin]

I never said that Kaepernick should respect the flag or the anthem, simply that IMO he should stand and face the flag so as not to offend others. You can still not respect it while not disrespecting others. IMO he can pick a better way to express his thoughts than this very offensive gesture, no less offensive than flipping the bird or hanging a BA. His protest is too indiscriminate, like carpet bombing to get rid of the bad guys.

I think the whole point was to not mince "words" or play it safe. It was a passive, unannounced protest that basically would be getting tone policed no matter what he did.

I don't agree with your Rosa Parks analogy. Parks never even intended to protest. She was simply tired after a long day's work and didn't feel like surrendering her seat. It's what happened later, when blacks and even some whites began sitting in opposite sections in order to protest segregation, that the civil rights movement, which actually had been going on almost since the end of the Civil War, was credited with its beginnings. That was one of the beauties of the civil rights movement, that it extended across racial lines and eventually helped make us a better country. I don't see that happening in Kaep's protest.

This just isn't true. Rosa Parks wasn't "tired" physically in any more significant way than other days. Rosa Parks is an example of someone that the Civil Rights movement saw as a good face based on age and gender. The fact that she was on her way to a N.A.A.C.P meeting about protesting segregation laws is important. She wasn't the first to refuse to move, nor was it the first time she had direct conflict with that very same driver. The whitewashing of Rosa Parks as just a tired and meek old woman is only surpassed by the almost colorless portrayal of the very socialist Martin Luther King, Jr. to contrast him with Malcolm X and later the Black Panthers.

I never did embrace John Carlos and Tommy Smith's actions in the Mexico City Olympics, and I think you're making a huge assumption that it has been embraced by a majority. IMO that's not what advanced the civil rights movement. What advanced the civil rights movement was Martin Luther King's appealing to the rational minds of the establishment. He was able to articulate what the movement was all about.

I swear I didn't read this section of your post before mentioning MLK above, but yet again this is an example of MLK being used as the only legitimate or palatable way of protest. This is of of course ignoring the fact that everyone involved were labeled Communists and traitors. This wasn't just in the South, the North was just as racist and in some aspects worse. You're partially correct in that MLK's number one target were moderate (for their time) whites whose main concerns were "tone". MLK said:

“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens’ Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice […] who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action.’”

I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion, RD, and always have. I'm quite positive I can learn from your perspective, and hope you remain open to learning from mine. With that said the oft-repeated lines about respectability politics, where are the fathers, black on black crime, personal accountability, political correctness, reverse racism, the race card, the pussification of America, leave if you don't like it, etc etc. are tired and have been tired since even before the first slave was emancipated.

[Hawktawk]

So those truths are tired....But BLMs lies are not................

[Hawktawk]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2651 ... nt-offices
Agreed 100% with these executives. He also showed up at a presser with a shirt with a picture of Fidel Castro on it. Proving his hatred of the best country on earth even further.

[RiverDog]

NLBM;

You're right about Parks saying that she wasn't tired, or at least that's what Wiki says (I swear I had read it in a book, "The 50's" by Halbertson or something, could she have changed her story?), but she had just got done working all day as a seamstress, so I guess it's a natural assumption that she was tired. But the point was that she didn't intentionally board the bus in order to protest segregation. Indeed, she didn't even realize that the driver you referred to was the same one that she'd had problems with in the past until after she'd already boarded and taken a seat.

I never said or implied that MLK's method of protest was the only legitimate form. What I said was that IMO he advanced the movement by engaging whites, articulating his descriptions in an understandable, rational argument, and by appealing to the common sense and decency of the white majority. It wouldn't have happened, or at least wouldn't have happened when it did, had he not taken the tact that he did. Some of the more radical,violent protests gave resistant whites something to hang their hat on and justify the continuation of their sentiments. It wasn't a very pretty time back then. I had to listen to my old man rant and rave, use the 'N' word, etc. I don't want to see a repeat of those days, and this indiscriminate protest of Kaepernick's might be moving us in the wrong direction.

Just for the record, I never have agreed with the "America: Love it or leave it!" phrase. There's too many times when the majority is in the wrong.

I very much appreciate your closing comments. I am glad that this is a friendly exchange and not a confrontational one, and I, too, am learning something. For one, I need to go dig up that book and re-read the section on Rosa Parks. I sure hope you hang around.

[Gridhawk]

Definitely an article worth reading from a non oppressed black man, retired Army Lt Col. and former congressman Allen West.


http://www.afa.net/the-stand/news/2016/ ... Y.facebook

[EmeraldBullet]

This whole thing is just kap trying to throw the spotlight back on himself. It seems it worked, got everyone talking it seems. Amazing how he seamlessly highjacked a movement that he previously had no connection with. Why didn't he sit in protest before when his football career wasn't on the line?

[RiverDog]

Definitely an article worth reading from a non oppressed black man, retired Army Lt Col. and former congressman Allen West.


http://www.afa.net/the-stand/news/2016/ ... Y.facebook

Nice article, thanks for posting it. Definitely a black man with a different POV.

[c_hawkbob]

Kap's sitting through the Anthem didn't bother me near as much as his socks he wore at practice yesterday:



With those (and how in the world could Kelly allow those to get out on to the field with the media storm surrounding his team already?!) he went from looking like a thoughtful intelligent young man troubled by recent events sitting in peaceful protest to just a juvenile punk thumbing his nose at the man.

It's too bad. I thought he shined a light on some very important issues (the one that resonated the most with me was that it required more training to put curlers in someone's hair than it did to put on a uniform, carry a gun and make split second life or death decisions) and I was struck by how well what he did worked to make these issues the most discussed thing in news, print and social media for as long as they have been.

Now, at least in my mind, he's trivialized the whole thing ... nice going dufus.

[Hawktawk]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/col ... id=UE07DHP
Yea Bob just saw this. Like many of us have said this is no noble stand being taken. This is a disrespectful jackass, ungrateful idiot. The hell with him.

[RiverDog]

He wore a Fidel Castro tee shirt, too, along with a Malcom X hat.

I can understand, without agreeing, how someone can defend this guy for his national anthem protest. But I can't see how anyone in their right mind can defend him after these latest revelations (he first wore the socks on Aug.10th, but no one noticed).

It's about time for Goodell to step in and start fining this jack wagon. If they can fine Marshawn Lynch for not talking, they can damn sure fine this guy for his using the exposure the league is providing him with to insult as many people as he can. Keep in mind that this is the same league that prohibited the Dallas Cowboys from honoring the Dallas police officers that were murdered.

[Gridhawk]

Remember this is the same idiot who was seen wearing a Miami Dolphins hat on July 4th after being drafted by the 49ers earlier that year.

Now he is trying to command respect and his true nature and immaturity just comes back to make him look like a fool again.




https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=co ... ajaxhist=0

[c_hawkbob]

He wore a Fidel Castro tee shirt, too, along with a Malcom X hat.

But wait, isn't he protesting oppression? Is there a more oppressive character in recent history than Castro?

[RiverDog]

But wait, isn't he protesting oppression? Is there a more oppressive character in recent history than Castro?

Yea, you can add Cuban refugees fleeing Castro's regime to the long list of people Krapperdick is insulting.

I swear, I wouldn't be surprised if Krapperdick decided to support ISIS. My question is when will the Commish step in and start fining this turkey? Isn't there something in the league's personal conduct policy he's violating?

[Oly]

Jeremy Lane sat during the anthem of tonight's game vs. the Raiders: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1744 ... iders-game

I'm not inclined to jump in the fray on this one as I can see both sides, but I wasn't bothered by Kaepernick's protest, and I'm not bothered by Lane's. Even though I generally agree with their view on the state of racial justice in this country, I don't feel the same general anger toward the USA as a whole that they do, certainly not enough to sit during the anthem. But I haven't directly experienced that frustration, only seen it, so I'm not going to condemn their protest.

There was a tweet (https://twitter.com/charlotteirene8/sta ... 8958117888) that I think captures how I see the hullaballoo:
White people: "Black people should protest peacefully!"
*Black person sits quietly during national anthem*
White people: "No not like that."

It seems incredibly patronizing for those who don't experience racial discrimination to tell those who do what kind of protest is palatable. When Black people are condemned for marching loudly and sitting quietly, it feels to me like this criticism about the *kind* of protest is just window-dressing for the belief that Black people just shouldn't be protesting. (To be clear, as others in here have said, lots of Black people and especially Black veterans have condemned it, so I don't want to suggest that only White people are condemning it. I just wanted to note that it's the criticism from Whites that feels wrong to me. I will never experience the discrimination that *all* of my Black friends have experienced, which is why I don't feel like I am in a good place to tell them what to do with their anger and frustration. Hell, if that happened to me, I just might react the same way.)

Anyway, that's just my .02. Take it or leave it.

PS: NLBM, good to see you posting in here. Not just on this topic--even though your voice is particularly important here--but on the Hawks in general. I hope you stick around through the season.

[obiken]

The sad reality is, the Piggy socks will get him before the stand on the Anthem.

[c_hawkbob]

The sad reality is, the Piggy socks will get him before the stand on the Anthem.

Absolutely. The pig socks disrespect all police, not just the ones oppressing black peoples rights and they only serve to trivialize his stated points for sitting out the Anthem.

I'm not going to ascribe the same trivialization to others that chose (or have historically chosen) to sit with him in peaceful protest (Lane won't be the last). As I said when he sat in the first place, while I don't care for it it doesn't bother me much, it is their right.

[Hawktawk]

It bothers many of us a great deal.

They are damn lucky to live in America and have a job working for the ever more left wing activist Goodell. How Kap isn't in front of him for the attire thing at a minimum is mind boggling. Especially when the Cowboys were NOT ALLOWED to wear a memorabilia on their helmets for the 7 officers slain by a BLM inspired sniper. Its clear as mud.....

If I pulled any of this crap in my place of employment I would have been gone a long time ago.

[c_hawkbob]

It's a whole lot better than rioting, burning cars, destroying small businesses and shooting cops!

If they chose a form of protest that didn't bother you on any level you wouldn't even know it happened. The whole point is to get the issues into the public consciousness and that is exactly what is happening.

We're discussing it. We're aware of it. No positive change can ever come about without that awareness and that open dialog.

[EmeraldBullet]

I still don't believe that kap actually cares about the movement. I think he is trying to keep himself relevant in any way he can. I don't know much about Lane's protest, other than he also sat for the anthem.

[NorthHawk]

The pig socks were probably a mistake. It takes away from his original message.
I read he said he has 2 uncles that are Police Officers and that this was to protest the small minority that are not good cops.

There are hundreds of millions of people - maybe billions who would give up a lot in their lives to have some of the rights that CK was exercising.
To look at this in a clearer fashion, you have to try to strip away the emotion side of the equation.
Imagine if a country has just come through a civil war or revolution and they had adopted a constitution similar to that of the US.
If this same thing happened there, would many of us be saying he should leave his country, be fined, or suffer some other punishment for exercising his new right of freedom of expression?
Somehow I doubt it, and especially so if our soldiers had died for the cause of freeing those people. I think there would be a lot of pride here that that country had taken such a big step forward towards a free future. So if my preposition has some validity, why would it be different at home?

Rights of expression have to be valued and used or they become simply taken for granted or worse, irrelevant. Even if they sometimes poke us in the eye. It's a small price to pay for the freedoms we enjoy.

[Vegaseahawk]

If I pulled any of this crap in my place of employment I would have been gone a long time ago.

Athletes, celebrities, & public figures have spoken out for various causes in the past. Choosing to do it at work is what will shut him down.

[nlbmsportin]

The more I read from this thread and Twitter the more I'm convinced this isn't the kind of conversation you have from a keyboard. There are just so many different ways people can use to change the subject and use sleights of hand to distract from what the message is. Just say you don't believe systematic racism exists in the United States in 2016. Just say you don't believe in privilege when it applies to white, male, heterosexual, able-bodied, Christian, cisgender, etc people. For people that claim to hate "political-correctness" there seems to be a lot of outrage about someone not expressing his or herself in a specific way that you find appropriate. The reality is that it isn't about the methods. It's the fact that he had the audacity to protest at all. If he's poor it's "go get a job" or "stop making excuses for your failures". If he's rich it's "you're not genuine" or "when have you been oppressed?".

The socks are indefensible in my opinion, but yet another example of a distraction. I don't need to have a flawless activist to agree with points they are making. I don't "stand" with Kaepernick based on him being a perfect reflection of my every viewpoint. Activism can be ugly and human beings can hold both morally just as well as morally reprehensible ideas at the same time. For instance, Nelson Mandela fought violently against apartheid and was tied to a Communist party in South Africa during the Cold War. Muhammad Ali was both a conscientious objector to the Vietnam War and the kind of guy who would call Joe Frazier a gorilla and Uncle Tom. Just like MLK wasn't just his "I Have A Dream" speech, Colin Kaepernick isn't just his interviews with reporters. This doesn't mean the "I Have A Dream" speech was just MLK "trying to get attention" and "disrespecting" the country that allowed him to even have a speech in the first place. That speech was 54 years after the founding of the NAACP, 8 years after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and 2 years before the March on Selma. It was also the same year as the Birmingham Children's Crusade, and 2 years before the Watts riots. Just look at these accounts of MLK and the Civil Rights movement that are NOT whitewashed to try and vilify today's activists with the lie that the activists of yesteryear were more civilized or justified:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2013/08/22/there-was-this-fear/

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/public-perspective/ppscan/62/62011.pdf

MLK even had to deal with white liberals calling for changes in methods in his Letter from the Birmingham Jail. Sounds very familiar to the tone policing we see today against BLM from people who recognize the message, but choose to be distracted:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/martin-luther-kings-letter-from-birmingham-jail/274668/

We've done this tone shift conversation already. We're going to keep doing this appeasement dance to get people to sympathize, and every single time the goalpost will be moved where those that speak out about oppression are shoved aside as whiners and radicals with no business in this great country of liberty and opportunity (results may vary). It isn't our job to force empathy into anyone, and our life experiences aren't false just because you didn't experience them. They aren't inconsequential because we aren't the only group to face discrimination. The goal is equality, not winning the oppression Olympics as those who mock black people as addicted to being victims so smarmily state. I don't know how much more we have to do to get people to have empathy for these issues, but it's quite clear we still have a long way to go.

PS: NLBM, good to see you posting in here. Not just on this topic--even though your voice is particularly important here--but on the Hawks in general. I hope you stick around through the season.

Good to see you too, Oly. I'll do my best to stick around. While this forum has it's limitations in discussions of this kind, it's a lot better than having a system like twitter or reddit where people can easily create their own echo chambers and downvote anyone they disagree with instead of actually engaging.

[obiken]

Absolutely. The pig socks disrespect all police, not just the ones oppressing black peoples rights and they only serve to trivialize his stated points for sitting out the Anthem.

I'm not going to ascribe the same trivialization to others that chose (or have historically chosen) to sit with him in peaceful protest (Lane won't be the last). As I said when he sat in the first place, while I don't care for it it doesn't bother me much, it is their right.

That's the point I was making CBob, albeit not very well, whether you agree with him on the anthem protest, putting all police in the same group is the worse of the two offenses. IMHO

[RiverDog]

It's not just the pig socks. Don't forget the Fidel Castro tee shirt. There's no way any of you can defend his honoring Castro. Or are Cubans and Cuban Americans that fled the Castro regime part of the 'problem'?

[c_hawkbob]

That's the point I was making CBob, albeit not very well, whether you agree with him on the anthem protest, putting all police in the same group is the worse of the two offenses. IMHO

You made the point fine, I was just agreeing with you.

[Hawktawk]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Sa ... 14541.html
had to suspect this was coming. Good for them.

Frankly i think cops should quit policing every inner city neighborhood in America for a month or so till BLM comes crawling on their knees begging them to come back.
JK...sort of...

[Gridhawk]

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Santa-Clara-Police-Officers-Association-May-Boycott-Working-49ers-Games-392214541.html
had to suspect this was coming. Good for them.

Frankly i think cops should quit policing every inner city neighborhood in America for a month or so till BLM comes crawling on their knees begging them to come back.
JK...sort of...

Absolutely love it. What do the 9ers do now just hours before final cuts. I can see all police unions boycotting all games they are involved in.

Balls in your court dick head.