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Fire Bevell?

Ugliest game I've ever seen.

RiverDog wrote:Ugliest game I've ever seen.

River do we start looking for a new kicker? I love Steve but all misses and missed extra points.

This OL sucks!!

Anyone who thinks any FG is automatic should be shot!!

Best D in the league - without question.
It's absolutely amazing we got a tie out of this game.

F that game.

obiken wrote:River do we start looking for a new kicker? I love Steve but all misses and missed extra points.

Kicker, hell! When do we start looking for an offensive tackle?

And please, let's blow up that thread about how the offensive line is "drastically" improved. That was the worst performance of any Seahawk offense in at least the past 40 years. I'm sick to my stomach.

All things considered, we're fortunate to walk out of there with a tie.
Az Blew more chances to put this thing away than we did.
Houschka clearly is in his head, but he's a pro, and will snap out of it.

Frustrating as it was, we come out of it ok.

Yeah RD saying it over and over doesn't make it true, or accurate...

Sorry dude, obviously you're uber emotional and all, but that doesn't change it.

When your Oline is having issues in a game, refusing to run the ball or shorten your passing routes for 45 minutes isn't a recipe for success ( nor is dialing back the successful portion of it when you get to the redzone).

Wow.

https://twitter.com/JacsonBevens/status/790417730620891136


Pete had better lay down the law to Bevell and his lame Offensive Schemes and play calling pronto.

That was the shttiest game I remember watching in years.

The offense was inept with the o-line looking like Desert Hills Middle School.

The officiating was f'ing pathetic.

The defense, while put at a disadvantage by the inept O and not giving up points, couldn't get off the field, either.

Kicking game... well, nuff said.

One side note: I have no patience for everyone wanting ARI to have been bailed out because Wagner's foot brushed the center's jersey when he jumped over him- that rule is intended to keep players from getting a boost off a lineman, so I wish they'd quit whining about technicalities like that.

HumanCockroach wrote:Yeah RD saying it over and over doesn't make it true, or accurate...

Sorry dude, obviously you're uber emotional and all, but that doesn't change it.

Not sure what you're talking about but I'm with Riv; we need us a tackle in the worst way!

AZ fans are probably wanting to fire their OC more than ours. But yeah, that many penalties is inexcusable.

LOL

Well well what a night!!!!!!

That all ya got for a supposed first place squad?

Should have lost but again had controversy on bad calls like the contact Wagner made on the leaps, Sherman PI again, holding on nearly every play, the non called -TD in OT

And on it goes

"Also: #Seahawks LB Bobby Wagner’s leaps over #Cardinals line were legal, despite AZ complaints. Check the rule book" -Kevin Seifert

"In #SEAvsAZ you have to land on the player for it to be a foul. The block was legal." -Dean Blandino

Rambo2014 wrote:LOL

Well well what a night!!!!!!

That all ya got for a supposed first place squad?

Should have lost but again had controversy on bad calls like the contact Wagner made on the leaps, Sherman PI again, holding on nearly every play, the non called -TD in OT

And on it goes

Yep, still in first place. On it goes!

burrrton wrote:"Also: #Seahawks LB Bobby Wagner’s leaps over #Cardinals line were legal, despite AZ complaints. Check the rule book" -Kevin Seifert

"In #SEAvsAZ you have to land on the player for it to be a foul. The block was legal." -Dean Blandino

NBC screwed up. They should have had someone in Chris Collingsworth's head phones telling him that it was a legal play. Michaels seemed to have a better grasp on the rule as he noted that the contact was incidental. As a result, Collingsworth gave a bunch of ignorant fans, like Ramblo, the false impression that Seattle cheated and got away with it.

The rule was implemented to prevent players using other players as a springboard to gain elevation, which was clearly not the case in either of Wagner's two hurdles of the AZ center.

It's also there so the Center isn't hurt by someone landing on them in that type of attempt.
But your point is correct, contact that doesn't affect the player isn't a foul.

As a result, Collingsworth gave a bunch of ignorant fans, like Ramblo, the false impression that Seattle cheated and got away with it.

Arians was even whining about it- I'm sure someone who knows the rule will set him straight before he makes a bigger fool of himself and takes it to the league offices for clarification like he said he was going to do.

I agree, RD. Collingsworth gave fodder to the anti-hawk fans frothing at the mouth over getting all the calls in our favor. Not only were both of Bobby's leaps legal, that was not a TD, nor (IMHO) was it OPI on Kearse. That latter call was as weird as the phantom OPIs in the other game....very strange calls, indeed. And to know that Bruce Arians is complaining about all of it and expecting an apology from the league on the "TD that wasn't" is laughable. It simply was not a TD, no matter how much that whiney red-faced coach complains. The effin ball did not cross the plane - NOT EVEN CLOSE, so there was no TD. Had the ball hit the pylon, he'd have a point.

A tie in this game, frankly - feels about right. Our D played their hearts out and the combo of our O-line with Russell's limitations is proving deadly. I wonder if RW will be healthy all year, really. At this point, I'm all for giving up a second for Joe. Right now.

I'd also like to say that I am so proud of our players and coaches. Arians, Matthieu and other Cardinals threw teammates under the bus (kicker and offensive lack of scoring) and openly whined about the Bobby no calls and other things. Seriously - look inward, Bruce. How about the stupid waste of timeouts, dumb play calling on 4th down, etc... He threw the game away with his emotional BS as much as anything, yet he threw the kicker to the wolves. Pete didn't - nor did any of the Seahawks. This is, in part, why we win. #Seahawks #I'mIn #WinTogether

Institutional mediocrity starts at the top with Pete Carroll and John Schneider.
1. Pete and John have penny-pinched on the O-Line and let very good O-Lineman to leave.
A. Our former starting LT is in Denver.
B. Our former starting LG is in N.Y. playing for the Jets.
C. Our former All-Pro Center is playing for New Orleans.

2.The play calling by Darrell Bevell is very inconsistent and usually gets better AFTER they are no longer using his scripted plays. Pete seems to not want to even entertain to possibility of canning Bevell, that is pathetic. I remember when the Baltimore Ravens offense was sputtering and they had no problem firing their OC and the Flacco led Raven offense went on to win the Super Bowl. I know it is a drastic move, to fire a OC or a DC but I am so sick and tired of watching the incompetence of Darrell Bevell.

3.Russell Wilson has NOT been the same since Suh stomped on his ankle in the first game. Wilson had NO business trying to run a Read-Option play, he couldn't execute the play and he was really gimpy. He also read the DE wrong and shouldn't have kept the ball, he should have handed the ball off.

Seahawks4Ever wrote:Institutional mediocrity starts at the top with Pete Carroll and John Schneider.

That's where you lost me. The Hawks, along with the Pats, are the only teams to have sustained elite status over the last decade. The arguments that the Hawks are mediocre, that their mediocrity is "institutional," and that PC and JS have been anything other than elite are all bogus.

Exactly, Oly.

Institutional mediocrity?
Not for the team as a whole. Along the OL? You have provided some evidence for that.
The thinking seems to be that with an extremely mobile QB who is also talented enough to not make high risk throws, a team can get away with an OL that isn't much better than average.
This plays into the theory that by continuing to young up front, they can keep the costs down and and still get by on Offense while the Defense holds the opposition to minimal points.
Without a RB like Lynch who led the league in broken tackles for more than a few years, the running game will suffer. And that also impacts the passing game.

Play calling.
People on this and other forums have been pointing to that for a long time. It was understandable when Russ was a rookie, but after the Super Bowl there should be no restrictions on the calls being made. I don't know if there is a plan to be conservative, but it does seem to be predictable. I wonder if the youth on the OL (at least in the sense of playing new positions) is contributing.
Edit: I don't see much sense of urgency until the last part of the game and then they start to put some plays together. Maybe an up tempo Offense can help. /end of edit

Wilson's injury.
It's football. It happens, but that's where the gamble on having a lesser OL comes up snake eyes as the mobility is key to keeping Defenses off balance.
The read option play may have been used just to keep the Defense honest. That Russ is hobbled, the play showed it isn't a good idea, but top athletes always think they can beat their opponent even when hampered by injury. It's the single factor that makes them who they are and different from the average journeyman player, people like me and I suspect most on this board.

We also have to remember that the Cards Defense isn't too bad. Their DL can dominate and their secondary has a lot of talent and speed.

Institutional mediocrity would be the perfect label for the Mariners perhaps, but the Seahawks results speak for themselves. You can put their numbers up during the Carroll/Schneider era with any other franchise and see for yourself.

Oly wrote:That's where you lost me ("institutional mediocrity"). The Hawks, along with the Pats, are the only teams to have sustained elite status over the last decade. The arguments that the Hawks are mediocre, that their mediocrity is "institutional," and that PC and JS have been anything other than elite are all bogus.

Yea, calling our organization mediocre borders on insanity. Although I wouldn't go so far as to compare us with the Pat's organization, which is in a league of their own, we're arguably right behind them. That 78 straight games w/o losing by more than 10 points is all the evidence one needs to prove that we're anything but mediocre.

How does the worst offensive line in 40 years not equate to institutional mediocrity??? Sorry, you aren't the best, second best or 32nd best organization without a functioning NFL calibre line... Simply doesn't work that way... That's like saying Alaska is the second warmest place on earth.

HumanCockroach wrote:How does the worst offensive line in 40 years not equate to institutional mediocrity??? Sorry, you aren't the best, second best or 32nd best organization without a functioning NFL calibre line... Simply doesn't work that way... That's like saying Alaska is the second warmest place on earth.

I don't agree, our defense is so good at defending the dink and dunk that the NFL has De-evolved into, that our OL weakness are not as glaring as they would have been otherwise. Add to this, the lack of practices, the spread offenses in College, and concussions, the over all line play in the NFL as a whole has gone down hill. I agree with River, if we have to depend on Fant in anything but a minor way, we are hosed!!

HumanCockroach wrote:How does the worst offensive line in 40 years not equate to institutional mediocrity??? Sorry, you aren't the best, second best or 32nd best organization without a functioning NFL calibre line... Simply doesn't work that way... That's like saying Alaska is the second warmest place on earth.

I was speaking of the Carroll and the Holmgren years in general, not the first 6 games of the current season. If we extended the quality of our current bookends back over the past 12-14 years or so, there's no way we would have established ourselves as one of the top 5 organizations in football over that time period.

They are rebuilding the OL. The Tackles will be the most difficult to settle on if you believe the mantra that College isn't producing good Tackles any more so it's natural that we see questionable backups, but you start from the inside out.
Both Sowell and Gilliam's contracts are up in 2017, so a decision has to be made whether to sign them after the season. Are they starting calibre? Do we keep one - perhaps Gilliam and move him to LT as was planned or do we go after players from other teams in the off season?

Edit:
According to Spotrac and considering Thomas and Staley are 2 of the more prominent names that might be available.

Thomas Cap hit this year is 9.5 million. I assume it is prorated, so it would be about 6 million hit to us.
Staley Cap hit is 10 million so it would be a little more.
Our Cap space is a little more than 6.6 million.

I don't see us getting either of these guys unless they redo their contracts significantly and cost us more down the road.
Their current contracts Cap hits for next year are 10 million and 11.150 million respectively.

This concerns me, and I'm sure I'm not the only one:

http://www.espn.com/blog/seattle-seahaw ... d-recovery

The offense needs to sustain several drives Sunday; the defense can't be out there for 90+ plays again. Anybody on here very knowledgeable about recovery from this sort of exertion? How do think it will affect their ability to play?

I mentioned earlier that I was worried about the past Sunday's game taking the starch out of the players for a game or two.
Now they have to go against a high flying Offense in New Orleans. Thankfully their Defense isn't good, so maybe we can get our Defense some time to rest.
This is a very dangerous game for us and we could lose by a lot if things don't go in our favor.

HumanCockroach wrote:How does the worst offensive line in 40 years not equate to institutional mediocrity??? Sorry, you aren't the best, second best or 32nd best organization without a functioning NFL calibre line... Simply doesn't work that way... That's like saying Alaska is the second warmest place on earth.

The job of the institution is to have a successful team. A mediocre institution, by definition, is one that is in the middle of the pack in terms of success. The Hawks are the 2nd most successful franchise in modern history (behind the Pats), and so by definition not mediocre.

Just because one position group is in absolute shambles right now doesn't mean that the whole institution went from elite to mediocre in less than 1/2 of a season. The front office made a very intentional decision to invest in creating the most dominant defense of all time, and that will necessarily take resources from somewhere. Now, I'd agree with an argument that they took this philosophy too far and have the worst OL in 40 years, and that this is likely to severely hurt the team. But until it results in the team being mediocre for a stretch of time, it's not a matter of institutional mediocrity.

Oly wrote:The job of the institution is to have a successful team. A mediocre institution, by definition, is one that is in the middle of the pack in terms of success. The Hawks are the 2nd most successful franchise in modern history (behind the Pats), and so by definition not mediocre.

Just because one position group is in absolute shambles right now doesn't mean that the whole institution went from elite to mediocre in less than 1/2 of a season. The front office made a very intentional decision to invest in creating the most dominant defense of all time, and that will necessarily take resources from somewhere. Now, I'd agree with an argument that they took this philosophy too far and have the worst OL in 40 years, and that this is likely to severely hurt the team. But until it results in the team being mediocre for a stretch of time, it's not a matter of institutional mediocrity.

Very well stated and I quite agree.

OK, I admit it, "institutional mediocrity" was "over the top". Way way over the top. But, it IS what I worry is happening with the way Pete and John continue to penny-pinch the O-Line. We ALL worried that Russell Wilson could pay a price and now he is indeed paying that price.

I absolutely LOVE the winning culture that Pete and John have brought to the franchise. Those of us that go back to the beginning know that a winning culture had been instilled in other eras as well only to see myopic leadership make mistakes that destroyed that culture. There have been other teams that fired coaches that had previously coached their team to Super Bowls and even Super Bowl wins. Look at the Broncos, many thought they were fools yet two years after getting pasted by our Hawks they won it all. Maybe I am wrong about the necessity to can Pete, I probably am wrong. But, he has stayed with Bevell who is so predictable that if I can figure the play being run then opposing defenses can too. Pete also has gone along with the cheapo way of treating the O-line and with Schneider's throwing away high draft picks as if they were nothing. We are now paying for that practice. I also think that many of us are tired of having the most penalized team in the league when historically we have had one of the least. Take those 3 things together and if it continues could lead to mediocrity which none of want to go back to any time soon!

Please enlighten me as to what injury Wilson is enduring because of the lines play? The answer is none ( other than the regular bumps and bruises ALL QB deal with)...

None of Wilson's major lingering issues are the lines fault.. None. Pectoral = kept ball got tackled Knee= kept ball got tackled ankle= pressured dropped down accidentally got stepped on. Zero big hits, zero nasty shots, nothing in any of those instances was the injuries anything to do with some sort of catastrophic line mistake.

It's certainly not the best line Seattle has every rolled out, but it's a FAR cry from the worst.

I think most of us fear looking back and thinking if only we had a better OL or Offense and if we did, we would have more than 1 Lombardi. If Holmgren had put more resources into Defense, we might have got one in 2006, but he was seemingly blind to Defense. We now have a Defensive coach who isn't quite as blind to Offense as Holmgren was to Defense, but still built this team as a Defensive oriented unit. That means more attention will be spent on the D if a choice has to be made.

It's also very unusual to have a team that considers itself to be a Super Bowl caliber team and yet almost completely rebuild their OL the same year. We've seen a huge improvement inside on pass protection, but the run game as a whole is still sputtering. Russ's injuries hasn't helped, but it's not the sole cause of the Offensive issues. Our formula on Offense was to have a strong run game and sprinkle in some chunk yardage plays. So far, that hasn't happened with any consistency and the Defense has had to limit the opposing Offenses to minimal points.

Is the problem spending on the OL? I don't think so, rather I think it's a problem identifying players that can excel within our scheme. Britt looks like he can be a very good Center and Ifedi seems to be the real deal at OG. So I think we upgraded from last year at those positions. Glowinski is steady and could become a solid pro, maybe someone like Chris Gray from the Holmy years.

The edges of the OL is where the weaknesses are. I think Gilliam would be better suited at LT as we tend to like big RTs for the run game.
We run a Zone Blocking scheme, or at least a hybrid of one where we require our OL to be powerful, yet be able to move like the traditional lighter ZBS linemen like we used to see in Denver when Terrell Davis was playing.

Getting those types of players who can be both athletic and powerful (as well as having the right aptitude for playing OL in the NFL) is tough.
So the question in my mind is considering the lack of these players, should we go back to a straight Drive blocking scheme where there is a larger pool of potential players?
If we are going to let players go that have reached their 2nd contract, should we have a system in place that is easy to learn and requires less athleticism?

I don't know what the answers are, but we have to find a solution to the Tackle play.
Maybe it will begin to sort itself out this weekend.