Beast Sits UGH

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Beast Sits UGH

Postby Uppercut » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:52 am

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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby RiverDog » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:46 am

Yea, I'm really disappointed in this. If one is to remain consistent, we have to call him out in the same manner in which we called out Colin Kaepernick no matter how much it hurts to do so.

Shame on you, Beast!
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby NorthHawk » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:27 am

Non story.

From the link:

"[Lynch] said, 'This is something I've done for 11 years. It's not a form of anything other than me being myself,'" Del Rio said. "I said, 'So you understand how I feel. I very strongly believe in standing for the national anthem, but I'm going to respect you as a man. You do your thing, and we'll do ours.' So that's a non-issue for me."

My highlighting.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby BenZero » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:55 am

A player doesn't give up his conscience or humanity when he signs. I have great respect for Kaepernick and, regardless of his motive, Marshawn. Anyone who thinks a kneejerk response to the anthem is called for every time a flag flies within sight lacks both a sense of current politics and an understanding of the Constitution. My loyalty and love of country comes from within and I don't need some external corporate entity (e.g., club ownership, stadium talking heads, government, whatever) to tell me how and when to express it or to remind me of it. This is true for anyone that walks their talk.

While I'm at it, I also am so very weary of God Bless America at nearly every single ball stadium in the 7th. This narrow, parochial notion of patriotism seems endemic to sports franchise ownership but it doesn't mean the rest of us have to knee and kiss the ring. Love of country is a personal matter and, like prayer, should be private and personal. Public displays are nearly always tiresome, like wearing the flag on your lapel to prove you are a patriot. Give me a quite person of honor every time.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:26 am

Non story ++

By their own descriptions, Beast is just quietly doing what he's always done, while Kaep was intentionally trying to make an insulting and ungrateful point.

While I'm at it, I also am so very weary of God Bless America at nearly every single ball stadium in the 7th.


Man, you said it. I'm sick to death of tolerating others celebrating our Judeo-Christian history. It's a true burden.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Largent80 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:25 pm

It's a metaphor for his season with Oakland.

Who gives a f***?
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:42 pm

Here's kinda where I come down on the issue- your personal grievances don't override what this country, and the people who fought for it, has/have done for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qz58jMhDDA
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby jshawaii22 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:58 pm

Something tells me that Marshawn was not thinking about Kap, or the NFL, or how his Coach, GM the 'media' or the fans think... he cares only about what HE cares about and if you don't get it, than you don't know Beastmode... sort of the silent version of Donald Trump.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:36 pm

Now add Mike Bennett....
Ive so Fin had it.

Look Mike, Beast, Kap, we get it. There are injustices in society.Nobody is going to change their mind about one Godd@mn thing politically based on your stupid disrespectful protest.
You're just angering probably 70% of your fan base and turning the 70 against the 30. Its not for you to do. Take it out of the stadium. Keep it out of the workplace like every other profession has to.
Give a speech, organize a rally, march with BLM or whatever. But quit dividing the fans.

Sports are supposed to be a a place where white and black, gay and straight, Christian and Muslim come together for a common cause and lay down the sword and pull together. They relax and unwind from all the stress and BS of their lives and the political Horsesh!+ plastered on every TV or computer screen 24-7.

These self aggrandizing Aholes completely abdicate their entertainment role in society when they do this. Goodells social engineering experiment has gone far awry and is coming back to bite him.This should not be permitted in pro sports and players should face league suspension for doing so. They have an antitrust tax exemption as a league. They should not be able to be political whatsoever.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby RiverDog » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:10 pm

OK, so Beast wasn't protesting. Bad on me for making an assumption.

Nevertheless, the problem I have with the Kaepernick-style protests is that they are indiscriminate. It's like protesting against the library because they have a book you don't like....one book out of millions. Take your anger out on the author of that one book, not the library, of which the vast majority of their books are great works of art and beneficial to the society it serves.

The events in Virginia are abhorrent to me. Give me a venue or a means and I'll denounce those frigging slimeball skinhead neo Nazis like you wouldn't believe. I hate them more than any black man ever would.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby NorthHawk » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:05 pm

burrrton wrote:Here's kinda where I come down on the issue- your personal grievances don't override what this country, and the people who fought for it, has/have done for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qz58jMhDDA


Keep in mind the sacrifices they and others have made for well over a hundred years are not to protect those who think alike, rather for those that think differently and possibly make others uncomfortable. That's the value and genius of enshrining freedom of speech and peaceful protest rights. On the surface it appears they are being insulted by protests, but dig deeper and you might see that it is confirmation that in fact their sacrifices weren't in vain.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Oly » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:50 am

I know my opinion is unpopular here, but I said I didn't mind Kaepernick's decision to sit--note, not that I "support" it, it just doesn't bother me--and I'll say the same about Bennett or anyone else. I don't think anyone here has disputed the fact that minorities are getting screwed in this country, at least far more than whites. The question is what counts as acceptable protest. I understand the criticism many in here have said that sitting for the anthem is indiscriminate and disrespects veterans and others who aren't part of the problem. I get that. But here is the rub, for me:

What counts as "acceptable" protest? and, Who are we to judge?

On the first question, I am not being hyperbolic when I say I have never seen a conservative white person look at black people protesting and say that they approve. Never. When the protests are loud and disruptive, white people say they need to be quiet. But now that they are being quiet and non-disruptive (sitting down in a place that doesn't impede the public is the epitome of quiet and non-disruptive), they're catching flak. I am genuinely curious to hear what kinds of effective protest the critics in here would be okay with. I highlight "effective" because it seems to me that protests must be effective to be useful, that they can't be effective without doing something to call attention to themselves, and that calling attention will always involve being controversial because we don't pay attention otherwise. So, what kind of public, controversial action would pass scrutiny here?

But perhaps more importantly, who are we to judge? And in the "we" I'm talking about other white people. Black people have been and are being sh*t on by our government (read up on red-lining and the Alabama criminal justice system for good, recent examples). They are getting killed by law enforcement more often and for less than white people (what would have happened if armed black men marched in Virginia carrying torches?). That's what they have to deal with, and we're complaining about being temporarily burst from our pure entertainment bubble when watching a sporting event? I have many veterans in my family and think we live in one of the best countries in the world, but we're not perfect. And I don't mind being reminded of the work we have to do. So as one of the most privileged people in the world--an educated, middle-class American white man is about as cushy as it comes in the world--I'm not going to whine when I see Bennett calmly pointing out that the color of his skin means that he faces challenges I'll never have to face. I just don't see that I have the right to micromanage how they express the fact that they suffer in ways I can't even fathom.

Edit: I'm not inclined to get into an argument here. I don't think I'll change a single opinion here, and no one will change mine. That's just the nature of our politically polarized society and the fact that political discussions on the internet never, ever, ever do a damn thing to change anyone's opinions. I just wanted to put out the other side of the debate, but I won't be getting into any kind of argument on this thread. Perhaps in person over a beer, but not on an online forum.
Last edited by Oly on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:52 am

Nice post Oly.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Oly » Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:53 am

c_hawkbob wrote:Nice post Oly.


Thanks. I had a feeling you and sista would approve, but I appreciate the comment.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:57 am

It's like protesting against the library because they have a book you don't like....one book out of millions.


Not a bad analogy.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:02 am

Keep in mind the sacrifices they and others have made for well over a hundred years are not to protect those who think alike, rather for those that think differently and possibly make others uncomfortable.


I *do*, which is why I'd like their protests to be focused on the actual problem, not giving the country itself a middle finger.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:09 am

I am genuinely curious to hear what kinds of effective protest the critics in here would be okay with.


Three words: Doug. Fcking. Baldwin.

I think a certain level of his outrage might be misplaced, but reasonable people can disagree on that, and talking to police, and LISTENING to police, and measured responses are how intelligent people affect change.

If you think giving the USA itself a big FU is a constructive way to do that, let me save you the suspense: it isn't. It makes you look like a dope that can't focus.

what would have happened if armed black men marched in Virginia carrying torches?


If this is a serious question, I'd love to hear where you've been throughout the "Black Lives Matter" protests.

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+l ... tter+riots
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:41 am

Oly wrote:I know my opinion is unpopular here, but I said I didn't mind Kaepernick's decision to sit--note, not that I "support" it, it just doesn't bother me--and I'll say the same about Bennett or anyone else. I don't think anyone here has disputed the fact that minorities are getting screwed in this country, at least far more than whites. The question is what counts as acceptable protest. I understand the criticism many in here have said that sitting for the anthem is indiscriminate and disrespects veterans and others who aren't part of the problem. I get that. But here is the rub, for me:

What counts as "acceptable" protest? and, Who are we to judge?

On the first question, I am not being hyperbolic when I say I have never seen a conservative white person look at black people protesting and say that they approve. Never. When the protests are loud and disruptive, white people say they need to be quiet. But now that they are being quiet and non-disruptive (sitting down in a place that doesn't impede the public is the epitome of quiet and non-disruptive), they're catching flak. I am genuinely curious to hear what kinds of effective protest the critics in here would be okay with. I highlight "effective" because it seems to me that protests must be effective to be useful, that they can't be effective without doing something to call attention to themselves, and that calling attention will always involve being controversial because we don't pay attention otherwise. So, what kind of public, controversial action would pass scrutiny here?

But perhaps more importantly, who are we to judge? And in the "we" I'm talking about other white people. Black people have been and are being sh*t on by our government (read up on red-lining and the Alabama criminal justice system for good, recent examples). They are getting killed by law enforcement more often and for less than white people (what would have happened if armed black men marched in Virginia carrying torches?). That's what they have to deal with, and we're complaining about being temporarily burst from our pure entertainment bubble when watching a sporting event? I have many veterans in my family and think we live in one of the best countries in the world, but we're not perfect. And I don't mind being reminded of the work we have to do. So as one of the most privileged people in the world--an educated, middle-class American white man is about as cushy as it comes in the world--I'm not going to whine when I see Bennett calmly pointing out that the color of his skin means that he faces challenges I'll never have to face. I just don't see that I have the right to micromanage how they express the fact that they suffer in ways I can't even fathom.

Edit: I'm not inclined to get into an argument here. I don't think I'll change a single opinion here, and no one will change mine. That's just the nature of our politically polarized society and the fact that political discussions on the internet never, ever, ever do a damn thing to change anyone's opinions. I just wanted to put out the other side of the debate, but I won't be getting into any kind of argument on this thread. Perhaps in person over a beer, but not on an online forum.


Well not an argument but a rejoinder. Not in the workplace, especially as a pro athlete. As I say maybe you don't mind Kap (I guess that includes the Castro love and pig socks too?) but probably 70% of fans disapprove even if they support BLM or whatever. Kaps situation shows how opposed to this behavior fans of every ethnicity are as GMs are fearful of bringing in the distraction.

One more thing. Don't paint all conservatives with the same brush. It was a white woman killed in Charlottesville. As a conservative I totally support the right of any person to protest injustice, just not in the workplace and not looting or shooting cops.

As for Aryan nations, Nazis white supremacists etc. frankly as a conservative I think their organizations should be against the law and they should be prosecuted for hate crimes for assembling. They disgusted me back when I was a twenty something hick redneck and I think I'm far from alone as a conservative. I was confronted on the street by a north Idaho hate preacher decades ago with his white shirt, red tie and black slacks and message of racism. I took about 30 seconds to tell him to shut his yap and leave before I smashed his face.
Don't lump me with trump. My vote for Gary Johnson was a proud moment for me. We gotta change something even if it takes time.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Largent80 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:48 am

This is actually off topic stuff. Political.

I loved the Beast in a Hawk uni, but he's no longer a Hawk and in reality what he does should be moved to a different location IMO.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:17 am

frankly as a conservative I think their organizations should be against the law and they should be prosecuted for hate crimes for assembling.


That's *not* a conservative POV.

Personally, I wouldn't lose a minute of sleep if every one of them had a baseball bat taken to them, but if "we want dead cops" is protected speech (it is), then what those @ssholes were doing was, too.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Largent80 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:22 am

What happened to talk about the Seahawks?...You know...the FOOTBALL team we all love?
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:05 am

That's *not* a conservative POV.


Unfortunately the extremists on the right have adopted (and maybe co opted) a part of the Republican party.
David Duke, the former Grand Wizard of the KKK said during the march that (paraphrasing) they are going to 'fulfill the promise of Donald Trump and take our country back. It's why the voted for him'.
So it may not be a Conservative PoV, it's become part of the Conservative landscape.
We saw some immediate backlash from the Republican leadership and others which shows the rot hasn't reached very far, but it's still a concern for those on the right that it must be addressed and excised.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Largent80 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:08 am

SEAHAWKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:23 am

So it may not be a Conservative PoV, it's become part of the Conservative landscape.
We saw some immediate backlash from the Republican leadership and others which shows the rot hasn't reached very far, but it's still a concern for those on the right that it must be addressed and excised.


Can't disagree with any of that.

My point, though, is that outlawing speech you don't like is not what someone calling himself a conservative should be in favor of.

Leave that to the fascists.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Oly » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:45 am

burrrton wrote:Three words: Doug. Fcking. Baldwin.

I think a certain level of his outrage might be misplaced, but reasonable people can disagree on that, and talking to police, and LISTENING to police, and measured responses are how intelligent people affect change.

If you think giving the USA itself a big FU is a constructive way to do that, let me save you the suspense: it isn't. It makes you look like a dope that can't focus.


Baldwin certainly is part of the solution, and I love what he does. It's effective action, sure, but it isn't a protest. This country has a rich history of progress through public protest, from the Boston Tea Party through MLK, and that's what I'm talking about.

And, to repeat myself, I don't necessarily think these protests are the most constructive way to do this. I don't consider myself a supporter of those. I just don't have a problem with them, which is different.

But getting back to the question: is there a form of protest that you're okay with?

burrrton wrote:If this is a serious question, I'd love to hear where you've been throughout the "Black Lives Matter" protests


I didn't comment on those because I'm still conflicted. I didn't support the rioting or much of the rhetoric, but when I tried to put myself in their position I figured I might be so angry from a lifetime of dealing with that sh*t that I might be out there myself. Not knowing how I'd react in their position made me very hesitant to start casting stones. I am, however, in the position of being a white man in America and knowing what that's like, and so I feel much more comfortable calling out the BS coming from the Alt-Right.

Regardless, though, it seems pretty clear to me that when mobs of black people go parading through the streets with torches and weapons they incur stronger retaliation than when white people do it, and that's my only point.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Oly » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:56 am

Hawktawk wrote:Well not an argument but a rejoinder. Not in the workplace, especially as a pro athlete. As I say maybe you don't mind Kap (I guess that includes the Castro love and pig socks too?) but probably 70% of fans disapprove even if they support BLM or whatever. Kaps situation shows how opposed to this behavior fans of every ethnicity are as GMs are fearful of bringing in the distraction.


I did mind the Castro love and the pig socks. I know Cubans who were victims of Castro's violence, and supporting him (or Che) is something I have a huge problem with, and I've said as much to people wearing Che shirts. As as much as I'm critical of police violence against black people, I absolutely support law enforcement, as the vast majority are out there in difficult positions trying to do their best for their communities. I think we need to keep having a conversations about the violence issue, but the targeted disrespect toward LE goes too far.

I also don't mind GMs not hiring Kaep. It's a business decision, and even if Schneider had said "Kaep would be a distraction, so we're not signing him," I'd be cool with it.

Hawktawk wrote:One more thing. Don't paint all conservatives with the same brush. It was a white woman killed in Charlottesville. As a conservative I totally support the right of any person to protest injustice, just not in the workplace and not looting or shooting cops.

As for Aryan nations, Nazis white supremacists etc. frankly as a conservative I think their organizations should be against the law and they should be prosecuted for hate crimes for assembling. They disgusted me back when I was a twenty something hick redneck and I think I'm far from alone as a conservative. I was confronted on the street by a north Idaho hate preacher decades ago with his white shirt, red tie and black slacks and message of racism. I took about 30 seconds to tell him to shut his yap and leave before I smashed his face.
Don't lump me with trump. My vote for Gary Johnson was a proud moment for me. We gotta change something even if it takes time.


Point well taken. My intention wasn't to paint all conservatives as supporting the "Alt" Right. But I think it is clear listening to prominent conservative voices over the last year that they have been more critical of these protests than liberals have been. My comment was only about conservative responses to these protests, not conservative responses to Charlottsville (which, outside of Trump, have been quite good).

Finally, I'm with you on the need to change something, although I'm okay with a quicker, less comfortable pace of change.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby kalibane » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:59 am

burrrton wrote:
If this is a serious question, I'd love to hear where you've been throughout the "Black Lives Matter" protests.

https://www.google.com/search?q=black+l ... tter+riots


One of the biggest problems these days is the use of rampant false equivalencies. At no point did BLM protesters carry torches through a city let alone with militia escorts armed with long guns and body armor. (Not to mention white people carrying torches in the south has an ENTIRELY different symbolic meaning, well known to the people doing it, than any other group in this country's history).

Furthermore, everyone's favorite "BLM" protest that people use to criticize them "Fry em up like Bacon" were not BLM. They were members of the New Black Panther Party which is categorized as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

BLM is protesting for Black Lives to be respected the same as White Lives. White Nationalist groups march for the superiority of white people. They are not remotely the same organizations in scope, goals or tactics.

So my question is why do you continue to push this false equivalency?
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:34 pm

But getting back to the question: is there a form of protest that you're okay with?


Yes: appropriately directed.

Regardless, though, it seems pretty clear to me that when mobs of black people go parading through the streets with torches and weapons they incur stronger retaliation than when white people do it, and that's my only point.


That's where I think you go off the rails: there was virtually *no* retaliation. They were jumping up and down on cop cars, for Pete's sake.

If one of those racist shtstains in Charlottesville had done that, you think they'd have been allowed with impunity? No freaking way- they'd have probably gotten shot, and rightfully.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Hawk Sista » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:18 pm

SPOT ON, OLY; nice series of posts.

I agree with Kali, too in that there are a lot of false equivalencies bandied about. This happens in all forms of argument (probably been guilty of it myself in this very forum), but when it's about real equity for ALL, most straight white dudes wouldn't notice them for what they are unless they were really willing to understand what life has been like for minorities, women, LGBT people etc.

Largent80 - there are sometimes posts/threads better suited in an OT forum that evolve in this one, right here. If you don't have anything to say about the topic...don't. But if grown adults want to make a point or debate a hotly burning subject (that actually does impact our Seahawks, in this case), save yourself a headache and click over to a thread that interests you.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Largent80 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:42 pm

The Seahawks interest me on a SEAHAWK message board. I'm sorry but this is a political discussion involving a player NOT on the Hawks, and I am free to voice my feeling that it belongs in a different forum than SEAHAWKS.

Lynch isn't a Hawk anymore. Am I out in left field or something?

Bennett sat last night, isn't THAT actually Seahawk related?

People are in here talking about KKK and Charlottesville.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby RiverDog » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:18 pm

You know, if the black players, or any other players or individuals as far as that goes, can find some other way to express their disapproval of some of the events that have happened lately, especially those in Virginia, that does not disgrace the entire country that a flag or anthem protest does, I would not only join them, I'd be out in front. As a fiscal conservative that has at times because of the combination of my skin color and political POV been painted by others as something I am not, I would love a means in which to prove to everyone that I am a fair and open minded individual that is as different from the KKK as night is from day.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Hawk Sista » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:39 pm

River - I hope you know that I consider you a friend and do not think you are a bigot in any way. I do think that life is not the same for black people in America as it is for white people and when a black person speaks up and says so, it is never the right time, tenor, place etc. I just ask that you consider what Michael's life was like, what he continues to fear and face, and not assume he is being disrespectful to the military. Did you hear him speak on it?

A point of disagreement on this issue is quite simply a disagreement about what is and what is not disgraceful. Some pretty smart people don't think that a peaceful protest is a disgrace to American values or the people who have served in the military. Some people, me included, think that the sacrifices made by my Father (and Michael Bennett's too, BTW) and others were not made for the fabric of our flag (which flies in front of my home) or the song itself, but rather what they represent. Other smart people, you among them, see the symbols as the freedom itself. It is a different way of seeing the issue and no matter how many times someone links a sappy speech from a straight white guy, I'm not going to change my mind about it. I can understand why it is bothersome to you and others. I really get it. It is not, however, bothersome to me. And that doesn't make me an idiot lib-tard (whatever the EFF that is). Both sides have gotten skilled and pigeon-holing.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:21 pm

...no matter how many times someone links a sappy speech from a straight white guy...


Aaaaaand... there it is.

Thanks for letting everyone know your true colors (again), Sis. Bye- life's too short to engage bigots.

I hope some of you take a look in the fcking mirror sometime. It's sickening.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:50 pm

As a fiscal conservative that has at times because of the combination of my skin color and political POV been painted by others as something I am not, I would love a means in which to prove to everyone that I am a fair and open minded individual that is as different from the KKK as night is from day.


That you feel you need to prove you're not in the KKK simply because of your skin color and politics (and, judging by recent responses, presumably now your sexuality and gender) is what's wrong with this country.

The people who make you feel that way should feel ashamed of themselves.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Hawk Sista » Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:22 pm

:roll:
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Oly » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:33 pm

I swore I wasn't getting into a debate, but I do think clarification is appropriate.

burrrton wrote:Yes: appropriately directed.


I get that part. But the devil is in the details. So, what would it look like? You're kind of proving my point here; I still haven't seen a conservative outline what acceptable protest looks like.

burrrton wrote:That's where I think you go off the rails: there was virtually *no* retaliation. They were jumping up and down on cop cars, for Pete's sake.

If one of those racist shtstains in Charlottesville had done that, you think they'd have been allowed with impunity? No freaking way- they'd have probably gotten shot, and rightfully.


I'm off the rails?! Dude, the BLM protesters weren't marching with openly displayed firearms and torches!!! Jumping on cars is not remotely comparable to marching with weapons. You think officers react more to car-jumping than displaying firearms in an emotionally charged march?

If you think that law enforcement reacts the same when white vs. black people open carry, then...I don't even know what, because I can't fathom that anyone would actually believe that. Even those racist sh*tstains in Charlottsville don't argue that point (in fact, the they applaud the disparity and say it's justified because of gang violence).
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:47 pm

I still haven't seen a conservative outline what acceptable protest looks like.


I don't *care* what it "looks like" (beyond *peaceful*) if it's directed at the right villain. The USA itself isn't the right villain. Baldwin tacitly acknowledged this.

You think officers react more to car-jumping than displaying firearms in an emotionally charged march?


You're comparing carrying a firearm (which they were presumably doing *legally*) to destroying public property??

I have a suggestion, Oly- get your permit, then try it yourself. Walk by cops with your legal firearm prominently displayed, then take a baseball bat to their cruiser.

Let everyone know how it goes. I'll bet $1000 you'll have the difference between "legal" and "illegal and violent" illustrated quickly and painfully.

If you think that law enforcement reacts the same when white vs. black people open carry


Stop arguing with the voices in your head. I didn't say that, and I agree it's something to lament. I just disagree with the sentiment that it's 100% due to racist cops. Those exist, and police make a lot of mistakes, but there is a whole *range* of factors that play into how officers react to situations.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby Oly » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:29 pm

burrrton wrote:You're comparing carrying a firearm (which they were presumably doing *legally*) to destroying public property??

I have a suggestion, Oly- get your permit, then try it yourself. Walk by cops with your legal firearm prominently displayed, then take a baseball bat to their cruiser's windshield.

Let everyone know how it goes.


I'm white, so you're right it will be fine. But if I were black like this guy (https://youtu.be/iCwtJL3tols), or this guy (https://youtu.be/Y41O6LM85VA), or this guy (https://youtu.be/E6jzzh-FZgs), then it's a different story, and that's my point.

burrrton wrote:When you think "carrying a firearm" is a significantly more egregious or provocative act than smashing a cop car?

No question about it IMO.


I never said one was more egregious. I said the two aren't comparable. As in, you're making a bad comparison. My point was only ever about how LE would treat black men marching with guns. You brought rioting into this as an odd comparison, but it's a crappy one. Smashing a cop car is a crime. Open carrying isn't (well, provided you have the license). How LE reacts to a crime in progress is different (and, by the way, note way above when I said I was critical of BLM? Well, there you go. I didn't like the rioting and violence, and think in the vast majority of cases LE showed restraint as a tactical move, so I'm not sure where the disagreement is).

burrrton wrote:Me: "If you think that law enforcement reacts the same when white vs. black people open carry"

You: "Stop arguing with the voices in your head. I didn't say that, and I agree it's something to lament. I just disagree with the sentiment that it's 100% due to racist cops."
[/quote]

It's not a voice in my head. I said: "Regardless, though, it seems pretty clear to me that when mobs of black people go parading through the streets with torches and weapons they incur stronger retaliation than when white people do it, and that's my only point." You then said I was off the rails. How else could I take what you said as anything other than a criticism of my statement about how LE reacts??? In fact, you're the one making sh*t up. Point to one place where I said the problem was racist cops, much less 100%. I'll wait.

Here is what you'll find:

"They are getting killed by law enforcement more often and for less than white people"

and

"As as much as I'm critical of police violence against black people, I absolutely support law enforcement, as the vast majority are out there in difficult positions trying to do their best for their communities. I think we need to keep having a conversations about the violence issue, but the targeted disrespect toward LE goes too far."

How can a sane person read this as me putting 100% of the blame on racist cops? I think you're envisioning me as some stereotype of a pansy white liberal who blindly supports BLM, because you're overlooking me criticizing BLM (in fact, not once did I say anything in support of them, just that I'm not casting stones) and saying that I think cops are racist (when I clearly, clearly said that I support LE). My position is much, much more nuanced than your reading of it. I encourage you to go back and re-read it, because at this point all I'm doing is repeating myself over and over without being heard.

I hope you do, because I'm just done with this thread. I don't think you're engaging my posts in good faith, as you have either repeatedly evaded a topic (what acceptable protest looks like), responded to an argument with a bad comparison that served just as a misdirection (how LE would react to black men with guns and torches), claimed I was making up words when your comment that I was off the rails was in direct response to my note about disparities in reactions to open carry, or put words in my mouth that completely reversed what I've said (I didn't call cops racist, but said I supported LE and was critical of aspects of BLM).

For the record, I think that the vast majority of the problem is in police training and laws governing shooting. It is shocking how little time they are required to spend on judgment and decision making when choosing when to discharge their firearms. They also spend far less time in non-violent conflict resolution than I'd like, which ties into our laws. The fact that an officer is legally allowed to shoot to kill when they "feel" threatened is telling them to shoot first and ask questions later. And when they haven't been sufficiently trained, personal characteristics from being overly fearful to, yes, racism can lead to rash decisions. How many videos have we seen like Philando Castile where a black man is complying with an officer's request only to get shot? Too many. (I'm not saying all were, but there are plenty of cases where it's true.) I don't think it's racism there, so much as a nervous officer whose anxiety is making everyone nervous. That might lead a nervous citizen with a gun pointed at his heart to move a little too quickly, leading the officer to fire. And because the law literally allows the officer to kill someone in this situation, the officer plays the better-safe-than-sorry game. So how does race kick in? Racism might lead to these hair triggers, but it's also just a lot of unfamiliarity, or a culture in the precinct where blacks are seen as the dangerous enemy. I think we need a change in training, the laws governing use of firearms, and in police culture. Even if I had a magic wand to kick out every cop who supports the march in Charlottsville, I wouldn't have kicked out many cops, and I wouldn't have made a dent in the problem.

...and now I'm done.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby RiverDog » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:22 pm

burrrton wrote:That you feel you need to prove you're not in the KKK simply because of your skin color and politics (and, judging by recent responses, presumably now your sexuality and gender) is what's wrong with this country.

The people who make you feel that way should feel ashamed of themselves.


It might not be "them" that causes me to feel that way. It might be something in my own mind that causes me to feel some sort of guilt. I honestly don't know which explanation is true. But whatever the cause, it's there and it's real. My friends and co workers know who I am, but others don't, and make assumptions as to my character based on small bits of information that they have available. Now that I'm older, my aged appearance tends to disarm people to some degree as I no longer pose the same potential threat I once might have. So to a lesser degree, I can identify with what minorities must have to go through.
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Re: Beast Sits UGH

Postby burrrton » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:18 am

I'm white, so you're right it will be fine.


LOL. Ok, Oly.

Be sure to film it for us and have your wife or significant other post it while you're in jail.

[edit]

I don't think you're engaging my posts in good faith


Tell everyone more about arguing in good faith, guy who's arguing he'd be allowed to beat the sh*t out of a cop car because he's white. Jesus.

Bye, Oly.
Last edited by burrrton on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
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