burrrton wrote:You're comparing carrying a firearm (which they were presumably doing *legally*) to destroying public property??
I have a suggestion, Oly- get your permit, then try it yourself. Walk by cops with your legal firearm prominently displayed, then take a baseball bat to their cruiser's windshield.
Let everyone know how it goes.
I'm white, so you're right it will be fine. But if I were black like this guy (
https://youtu.be/iCwtJL3tols), or this guy (
https://youtu.be/Y41O6LM85VA), or this guy (
https://youtu.be/E6jzzh-FZgs), then it's a different story, and that's my point.
burrrton wrote:When you think "carrying a firearm" is a significantly more egregious or provocative act than smashing a cop car?
No question about it IMO.
I never said one was more egregious. I said the two aren't comparable. As in, you're making a bad comparison. My point was only ever about how LE would treat black men marching with guns. You brought rioting into this as an odd comparison, but it's a crappy one. Smashing a cop car is a crime. Open carrying isn't (well, provided you have the license). How LE reacts to a crime in progress is different (and, by the way, note way above when I said I was critical of BLM? Well, there you go. I didn't like the rioting and violence, and think in the vast majority of cases LE showed restraint as a tactical move, so I'm not sure where the disagreement is).
burrrton wrote:Me: "If you think that law enforcement reacts the same when white vs. black people open carry"
You: "Stop arguing with the voices in your head. I didn't say that, and I agree it's something to lament. I just disagree with the sentiment that it's 100% due to racist cops."
[/quote]
It's not a voice in my head. I said: "Regardless, though, it seems pretty clear to me that when mobs of black people go parading through the streets with torches and weapons they incur stronger retaliation than when white people do it, and that's my only point." You then said I was off the rails. How else could I take what you said as anything other than a criticism of my statement about how LE reacts??? In fact, you're the one making sh*t up. Point to one place where I said the problem was racist cops, much less 100%. I'll wait.
Here is what you'll find:
"They are getting killed by law enforcement more often and for less than white people"
and
"As as much as I'm critical of police violence against black people, I absolutely support law enforcement, as the vast majority are out there in difficult positions trying to do their best for their communities. I think we need to keep having a conversations about the violence issue, but the targeted disrespect toward LE goes too far."
How can a sane person read this as me putting 100% of the blame on racist cops? I think you're envisioning me as some stereotype of a pansy white liberal who blindly supports BLM, because you're overlooking me criticizing BLM (in fact, not once did I say anything in support of them, just that I'm not casting stones) and saying that I think cops are racist (when I clearly, clearly said that I support LE). My position is much, much more nuanced than your reading of it. I encourage you to go back and re-read it, because at this point all I'm doing is repeating myself over and over without being heard.
I hope you do, because I'm just done with this thread. I don't think you're engaging my posts in good faith, as you have either repeatedly evaded a topic (what acceptable protest looks like), responded to an argument with a bad comparison that served just as a misdirection (how LE would react to black men with guns and torches), claimed I was making up words when your comment that I was off the rails was in direct response to my note about disparities in reactions to open carry, or put words in my mouth that completely reversed what I've said (I didn't call cops racist, but said I supported LE and was critical of aspects of BLM).
For the record, I think that the vast majority of the problem is in police training and laws governing shooting. It is shocking how little time they are required to spend on judgment and decision making when choosing when to discharge their firearms. They also spend far less time in non-violent conflict resolution than I'd like, which ties into our laws. The fact that an officer is legally allowed to shoot to kill when they "feel" threatened is telling them to shoot first and ask questions later. And when they haven't been sufficiently trained, personal characteristics from being overly fearful to, yes, racism can lead to rash decisions. How many videos have we seen like Philando Castile where a black man is complying with an officer's request only to get shot? Too many. (I'm not saying all were, but there are plenty of cases where it's true.) I don't think it's racism there, so much as a nervous officer whose anxiety is making everyone nervous. That might lead a nervous citizen with a gun pointed at his heart to move a little too quickly, leading the officer to fire. And because the law literally allows the officer to kill someone in this situation, the officer plays the better-safe-than-sorry game. So how does race kick in? Racism might lead to these hair triggers, but it's also just a lot of unfamiliarity, or a culture in the precinct where blacks are seen as the dangerous enemy. I think we need a change in training, the laws governing use of firearms, and in police culture. Even if I had a magic wand to kick out every cop who supports the march in Charlottsville, I wouldn't have kicked out many cops, and I wouldn't have made a dent in the problem.
...and now I'm done.