O-Line

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Re: O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:28 am

Old but Slow wrote:Oh please. Chill a bit. Our first game was poor, but we also stayed within a score of a good team on their field. No time to bail.


It's Sis's fault, this collective paranoia that we have after losing our first game. She didn't start a "0-1 is a disaster" thread. :lol:

We'll see what happens tomorrow. I expect our offense to continue to struggle, but the defense should completely shut down the Niner's offense given that we're playing at home. I wouldn't be surprised to see a weird score, like a 15-8 final with no TD's by either side.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:06 am

[quote="RiverDog
It's Sis's fault, this collective paranoia that we have after losing our first game. She didn't start a "0-1 is a disaster" thread. :lol:

We'll see what happens tomorrow. I expect our offense to continue to struggle, but the defense should completely shut down the Niner's offense given that we're playing at home. I wouldn't be surprised to see a weird score, like a 15-8 final with no TD's by either side.[/quote]
Im concerned about the banged up defense. Sherm is questionable with a hammy and is not known for being the fastest corner anyway. Griffin is coming off a concussion. And KJ nursed an ankle all week. Not to mention the amount of time those guys were on the field.

Im worried about this game. Its a field goal league and we haven't played this years 9ers squad. They stunk week 1 but Hoyer has played a lot of ball, is smart and tough and Seattle hasn't seen him. I hope for a blowout but will take a 2-0 victory. They better get this one though.
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Re: O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:09 pm

Hawktawk wrote:Im concerned about the banged up defense. Sherm is questionable with a hammy and is not known for being the fastest corner anyway. Griffin is coming off a concussion. And KJ nursed an ankle all week. Not to mention the amount of time those guys were on the field.

Im worried about this game. Its a field goal league and we haven't played this years 9ers squad. They stunk week 1 but Hoyer has played a lot of ball, is smart and tough and Seattle hasn't seen him. I hope for a blowout but will take a 2-0 victory. They better get this one though.


I don't see us scoring more than 20 points for the next 4 weeks, but I think that our defense will smother the Niners tomorrow.
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Re: O-Line

Postby idhawkman » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:09 am

https://streamable.com/nnqge


After watching that, Odhiambo wasn't the worst thing I've seen for a first start at LT. I believe he did pretty well except on 3 downs. Those three would not have been bad if RW had a pocket to step up into.

I also noticed that when Bevel moved the pocket, RW had much more success. Hopefully, Bevell learned as much or more than the players from this game.

BTW, my first post here on the Shack. Great to see so many familiar avatars here....

River, IG, Cbob, Curmudgeon, etc.
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Re: O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:28 am

Nice to see you here ID!
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Re: O-Line

Postby idhawkman » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:49 am

c_hawkbob wrote:Nice to see you here ID!


Thanks Bob. Not enough happening over on the other site. Looks like a lot more discussion going on here. Plus there are a lot of familiar faces here from the old PI forum.
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Re: O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:04 am

idhawkman wrote:
Thanks Bob. Not enough happening over on the other site. Looks like a lot more discussion going on here. Plus there are a lot of familiar faces here from the old PI forum.


This seems to be the truest extension of the old PI forum.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:45 am

This sounds promising, but if we sub him in someplace he still lacks the needed "gelling" time.

“Really like what’s doing,” Carroll said of Battle. “He’s got an unusually gifted style in pass-protection and we’re trying to catch him up with the system right now so that he can compete to play. But he’s done some really good stuff, he’s gone against their best guys in practice in pass-rush and things like that, and he’s been very competitive. Really excited about what’s coming. I don’t know how fast we can get him caught up, though, but he’s done well.”

http://www.seahawks.com/news/2017/09/18 ... conference
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:47 am

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Re: O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:15 pm

FWIW, here's Belichick's view on why OL play is poor these days.

"“I just think in general, fundamentally it’s difficult to play on the offensive and defensive line,” Belichick said. “You’re playing a contact position with pads, and you’re practicing it without pads the majority of the time. That usually develops a lot of bad habits, and a lot of the techniques that a player would have the chance to work on and improve with pads, that opportunity just isn’t there without pads.

“So it’s hard to improve at those positions when, a lot of times, you’re practicing techniques that are really not the ideal technique or, in some cases, incorrect, and it just develops bad habits, especially on the offensive line. . . . [W]ithout being able to practice, [this] favors the defensive players a little more, whereas the offensive unit has to work together and be able to block things at more of a game tempo with pads and penetration and combination blocks and things like that. It’s just hard to simulate those and hard to get the timing of those when you’re just standing up watching each other without pads on a lot. So, I mean, look, we’re all coaching under the same rules, but I think it’s harder, especially at that position, to improve when you really can’t practice your skill.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... line-play/

If this is a common sentiment around the NFL, you don't have to put on your Spock Ears to logically deduce that a simple blocking scheme would work better.
Never more true than when you have a very young group at OL who need to learn the basics.
Taking from his comments, I wonder if our OL may be getting bad habits in both ZBS and Drive blocking thus complicating the learning curve even more.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:08 pm

Blowinski is going to be replaced this Sunday is my prediction which is hardly world breaking if you saw him on the TD play in the 4th quarter. He looked like a kindergardener running around in circles, touching nobody while still being 5 yards from the nearest player.

It was, for me at least, the FINAL straw in his drink. That guy isn't even a good backup. So, who do they have?...The have Aboushi whom they decided to make inactive. I still don't understand their love for Blowinski. I had seenenough in the pre-season. I'm a fan however and supposedly, not a talent evaluator.
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Re: O-Line

Postby burrrton » Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:55 pm

FWIW, here's Belichick's view on why OL play is poor these days.


I've heard similar echoed elsewhere, and it rings true.
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Re: O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:32 am

NorthHawk wrote:FWIW, here's Belichick's view on why OL play is poor these days.

"“I just think in general, fundamentally it’s difficult to play on the offensive and defensive line,” Belichick said. “You’re playing a contact position with pads, and you’re practicing it without pads the majority of the time. That usually develops a lot of bad habits, and a lot of the techniques that a player would have the chance to work on and improve with pads, that opportunity just isn’t there without pads.

“So it’s hard to improve at those positions when, a lot of times, you’re practicing techniques that are really not the ideal technique or, in some cases, incorrect, and it just develops bad habits, especially on the offensive line. . . . [W]ithout being able to practice, [this] favors the defensive players a little more, whereas the offensive unit has to work together and be able to block things at more of a game tempo with pads and penetration and combination blocks and things like that. It’s just hard to simulate those and hard to get the timing of those when you’re just standing up watching each other without pads on a lot. So, I mean, look, we’re all coaching under the same rules, but I think it’s harder, especially at that position, to improve when you really can’t practice your skill.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... line-play/

If this is a common sentiment around the NFL, you don't have to put on your Spock Ears to logically deduce that a simple blocking scheme would work better.
Never more true than when you have a very young group at OL who need to learn the basics.
Taking from his comments, I wonder if our OL may be getting bad habits in both ZBS and Drive blocking thus complicating the learning curve even more.


Good point. In other words, do you think that Tom Cable is being too stubborn and hasn't adapted to the realities of playing as an offensive lineman in today's NFL?
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Re: O-Line

Postby mykc14 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:55 am

RiverDog wrote:Good point. In other words, do you think that Tom Cable is being too stubborn and hasn't adapted to the realities of playing as an offensive lineman in today's NFL?


As has been mentioned before the lack of pro systems in college really hurts the readiness of linemen coming into the league. It also makes it way harder to scout lineman, because you are not scouting on what you are seeing on a game by game basis but rather on an athletic/physical profile that you hope translates into a good professional lineman. Combine that with the fact that there are FAR more 'explosive' D-linemen in the NFL draft (seriously there are like 5 explosive O-linemen in the draft compared to 30+ explosive D-linemen) which means that you are not getting nearly as good of athletes playing on the O line as the D line. Throw in the lack of padded contact practices, which really hurts the timing of offensive play in general and, as has been mentioned, the fact that rules against cut-blocks have really hurt the effectiveness of the ZBS in general and you see why offensive lines play in the NFL is so poor these days.

With all that being said I don't know if he's being stubborn or he's just trusting what he knows and fighting an uphill battle without much proven talent...
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Re: O-Line

Postby idhawkman » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:20 am

RiverDog wrote:
Good point. In other words, do you think that Tom Cable is being too stubborn and hasn't adapted to the realities of playing as an offensive lineman in today's NFL?
This is what I suspect. The realities of the "Pro system" have changed and the "Pro system" is no longer what Cable thinks it is. The one constant in today's life is change. He needs to adapt.
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Re: O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:30 am

I copied and pasted in another thread a comment from another forum by a poster that I think used to post in the old PI.
His basic observation is that since the cut block has been eliminated the blocking scheme that Cable taught has become less effective and it's hurting our OL.
He suggested there is a correlation between the blocking changes and Cable's effectiveness as a line coach.
On the surface it looks to have merit.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:46 am

Cable runs Alex Gibbs' ZBS. It is the scheme used by teams that want to Run, Run, and Run. That system with the right personnel, is a good one for balance IF your linemen can pass block(mostly on play action passes) because a good running game gives you those plays because the D has to adjust by bringing an extra player or 2 into the box.

The Hawks controlled the game last Sunday in T.O.P. but had nothing but FG's to show for it. The good thing about that is when the 4th quarter came around, their defense was gassed. If those dropped passes were caught, we would all be pretty happy today but they weren't so we are here with doubts.

Going on the road into an up and coming teams field is going to be a daunting task, and it appears Aboushi will replace Blow-inski. While that is less continuity, I think Aboushi is a mauler in the run game. Unfortunately Tenn. has good D vs. the run but not so much vs. the pass which makes this game even harder for the Hawks.
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Re: O-Line

Postby obiken » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:09 pm

Steven A Smith called our Offense Pathetic, they actually pay these people for being late to our party!!
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:42 am

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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:53 am

Here, is an excellent article on how Tennessee's o-line was built. Note they have both of their tackles taken early in the first round. Why???...Because the team STUNK all those years therefore garnering them pick 11 and pick 8. Do you like the Hawks in the playoffs or do you like losing?? And after those first contracts are up for those players they will be like every other team with vultures that have money ready to poach those players. It aint easy folks.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/9/21/16 ... ewan-draft
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Re: O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 am

mykc14 wrote:As has been mentioned before the lack of pro systems in college really hurts the readiness of linemen coming into the league. It also makes it way harder to scout lineman, because you are not scouting on what you are seeing on a game by game basis but rather on an athletic/physical profile that you hope translates into a good professional lineman. Combine that with the fact that there are FAR more 'explosive' D-linemen in the NFL draft (seriously there are like 5 explosive O-linemen in the draft compared to 30+ explosive D-linemen) which means that you are not getting nearly as good of athletes playing on the O line as the D line. Throw in the lack of padded contact practices, which really hurts the timing of offensive play in general and, as has been mentioned, the fact that rules against cut-blocks have really hurt the effectiveness of the ZBS in general and you see why offensive lines play in the NFL is so poor these days.

With all that being said I don't know if he's being stubborn or he's just trusting what he knows and fighting an uphill battle without much proven talent...


Yea, I keep hearing that excuse being used to explain our offensive line woes, that the colleges, with their spread offenses and what not, are not procuring offensive linemen like they used to, that college linemen don't play out of 3 point stances very much anymore, and so on. That's his problem. There's 31 other teams in this league that has to deal with the same issues, and outside the perennial dogs, they don't experience the types of issues with their offensive lines as we have with ours over the past 2+ years, at least not to the same degree that we have. I wish people would give me the same type of pass that Cable gets when I don't perform up to expectations.

Bottom line is that Cable is our offensive line coach, and it's his job to fix it.
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Re: O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:20 am

Largent80 wrote:Here, is an excellent article on how Tennessee's o-line was built. Note they have both of their tackles taken early in the first round. Why???...Because the team STUNK all those years therefore garnering them pick 11 and pick 8. Do you like the Hawks in the playoffs or do you like losing?? And after those first contracts are up for those players they will be like every other team with vultures that have money ready to poach those players. It aint easy folks.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/9/21/16 ... ewan-draft


So how does the writer explain the Pats and how their OL improved when Scarneccia (sp) returned? He doesn't.
What about Pittsburgh OL? They have a couple of high draft picks 6 or 8 years ago, but they kept their picks and didn't shuffle them around every year and have had a serviceable line for the run game.
The Broncos? A team built just like ours with a great Defense, but their OL is much better than ours, too.
The excuse about drafting early doesn't hold a lot of water when others have been able to make it work when selecting similarly and like Denver paying a lot of money on a Defense that's as pretty close to being equal to ours.
I don't think anyone is expecting us to have the best OL in the game, but we should at least be around middle of the road in productivity and getting better instead of being stuck near the bottom.
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Re: O-Line

Postby mykc14 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:26 am

RiverDog wrote:
Yea, I keep hearing that excuse being used to explain our offensive line woes, that the colleges, with their spread offenses and what not, are not procuring offensive linemen like they used to, that college linemen don't play out of 3 point stances very much anymore, and so on. That's his problem. There's 31 other teams in this league that has to deal with the same issues, and outside the perennial dogs, they don't experience the types of issues with their offensive lines as we have with ours over the past 2+ years, at least not to the same degree that we have. I wish people would give me the same type of pass that Cable gets when I don't perform up to expectations.

Bottom line is that Cable is our offensive line coach, and it's his job to fix it.


Oh, I'm not using it as an excuse for Cable in any way shape or form, rather a statement of fact. IMO we should move away from the ZBS as it is too difficult to implement with today's NFL lineman/rule changes against cut-blocks. I do think that Cable is simply sticking to a system that he knows and really believes in. It's also a system that PC clearly believes in as his OC's used it with great success in college. It really was an extremely effective blocking scheme, with 1 Achilles heel, backside pursuit. Our current problem seems to be getting physically dominated at times at the point of attack and not being able to stop backside pursuit with cut blocks.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:30 am

Comparing other teams o-lines is an exercise in futility. A lot of luck is involved along with schemes. There is no magic coach or philosophy.
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Re: O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:47 am

Largent80 wrote:Comparing other teams o-lines is an exercise in futility. A lot of luck is involved along with schemes. There is no magic coach or philosophy.


I don't think it's simply a lack of good fortune, but if some teams can be competitive consistently, then all should be able to be so, too after a couple of years.
We've simply been on a downhill slide for 4 years and the last 2 years been scraping the bottom in OL efficiency/productivity.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:31 am

Not to beat a well beaten dead horse but there is something to the word continuity. So if you run a complex zbs system and switch out the parts, guess what? You get what we are seeing. It's not rocket science, it's not the scheme, it's not the coach, it's more about the salary cap and the way players are developed in high school and college.
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Re: O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:00 pm

Perhaps the problem is in part using a complex system with raw talents who also have to learn 2 positions.
That's a real recipe for disaster.

Simplify the scheme and let the players actually learn the 1 position they are best at.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:25 pm

RiverDog wrote:Yea, I keep hearing that excuse being used to explain our offensive line woes, that the colleges, with their spread offenses and what not, are not procuring offensive linemen like they used to, that college linemen don't play out of 3 point stances very much anymore, and so on. That's his problem. There's 31 other teams in this league that has to deal with the same issues, and outside the perennial dogs, they don't experience the types of issues with their offensive lines as we have with ours over the past 2+ years, at least not to the same degree that we have. I wish people would give me the same type of pass that Cable gets when I don't perform up to expectations.

Bottom line is that Cable is our offensive line coach, and it's his job to fix it.


It's nothing but a lame excuse for failed talent acquisition and development. I think Cable's O-line philosophy isn't working and we need to try something new. At least give us a chance for something better as we can't get much worse.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:11 pm

Well dude, you are far from being An
NFL coach so I'll go with the coaches actually hired by the team. Meanwhile you can do whatever.
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Re: O-Line

Postby obiken » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:17 am

Largent80 wrote:Well dude, you are far from being An
NFL coach so I'll go with the coaches actually hired by the team. Meanwhile you can do whatever.


Sorry, how about Bruce Arains, "We have never had a problem with Seattle's Offensive Line, period." Sorry, they suck, big donkey dicks. There is not one good one in the bunch. Get over it, we are doomed against good teams, period.
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Re: O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:59 am

mykc14 wrote:Oh, I'm not using it as an excuse for Cable in any way shape or form, rather a statement of fact. IMO we should move away from the ZBS as it is too difficult to implement with today's NFL lineman/rule changes against cut-blocks. I do think that Cable is simply sticking to a system that he knows and really believes in. It's also a system that PC clearly believes in as his OC's used it with great success in college. It really was an extremely effective blocking scheme, with 1 Achilles heel, backside pursuit. Our current problem seems to be getting physically dominated at times at the point of attack and not being able to stop backside pursuit with cut blocks.


I probably should have worded my thoughts a little differently so I didn't appear to be accusing you of making excuses. My thoughts were more generalized, and not specific to any one person.

I hadn't thought about the rule changes regarding cut blocks and the inability to deal with backside pursuit having an effect on the ZBS, but it's a point worth considering.
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Re: O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:37 am

Here's the philosophy for the DL from Kris Richard:
"“He does understand many of the schemes and concepts. But we’ve just got to make sure that we keep him locked in a certain spot, so he can learn to dominate there first – and then we can see about moving him around,” Richard said."

That's for Richardson, a Pro Bowl DL.
Compare that to what they do with Rookie and inexperienced OL with learning 2 positions and sometimes moving from one side to another let alone a complex blocking scheme.
They should do the same on Offense with their linemen.
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Re: O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:15 pm

Arians? Mr. red face himself.

They tied us and sqeeked by us last year and all of a sudden what Arians say matters?

Sorry, but the line is going to play better.
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