The GOAT

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The GOAT

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:34 pm

There's no debate about which qb is the most accomplished or decorated it's Brady. But for my money speaking g purely about having the skills, pocket presence, elusiveness, arm strength and accuracy and ability to read the field and create offsides penalties . That man is Aaron Rodgers . One can quibble about leadership qualities personality etc but the man physically plays the game better than anyone else I've ever seen.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby obiken » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:16 pm

That's a bit of a reach to me guy, he is certainly in the top 10. Who did I fear as a Hawk fan more than anyone? John Elway.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Hawktawk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:58 am

obiken wrote:That's a bit of a reach to me guy, he is certainly in the top 10. Who did I fear as a Hawk fan more than anyone? John Elway.


Hey no doubt Elway was a tough out and pulled off some magic in his HOF career, seemingly more against some stacked Hawks teams than anyone else. But his passing stats are really pretty pedestrian, He was ironically enough Tim Tebow 30 years before his time with a bigger arm and better accuracy but the same bruising running ability. Knox called him a "running back with a cannon for an arm.."

My point about Rodgers is not wins and losses. I don't think he's anywhere near the best field general leadership wise and he's thrown teammates and coaches under the bus more than once.
Im simply talking about the mechanics of playing the position. His ability to slide around with eyes in the back of his head playing dodge ball with defenders and using his own lineman as shields even if they have been beat is extraordinary.
The heat Seattle was bringing he could have been sacked ten times.

Throwing the ball with great accuracy from many different arm angles while running to either sideline is another strength he uses better than any man I've ever seen.
His career QBR is by far the best in league history and last season was his 3rd in a row with 30+TDs and under 10 picks, something no other man in history ever did.
In terms of playing the position he's the best ever.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:15 am

He may be the best today, but how do you compare with years past when the defenders could take liberties with the WR's down field?
Stats don't have much meaning when in prior eras DB's could clock a receiver for coming into his zone as long as the ball wasn't in the air.
Today, receivers can run all over the field without being molested and find openings where it was much more difficult earlier.
QB's like Tarkenton or Manning in those eras to name just two may have been far more effective than Rodgers given the rule changes.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby RiverDog » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:06 pm

NorthHawk wrote:He may be the best today, but how do you compare with years past when the defenders could take liberties with the WR's down field?
Stats don't have much meaning when in prior eras DB's could clock a receiver for coming into his zone as long as the ball wasn't in the air.
Today, receivers can run all over the field without being molested and find openings where it was much more difficult earlier.
QB's like Tarkenton or Manning in those eras to name just two may have been far more effective than Rodgers given the rule changes.


Exactly. Just about every rule change over the past 40 years has favored the offense in general and the quarterback specifically. No more bump and run, no hits on defenseless receivers, breathing too heavily on the quarterback constitutes roughing. Offensive holding used to be 15 yards and you couldn't use an open hand like you can now.

It's not the same game as it was when I was growing up. Apples and oranges.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Hawktawk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:02 am

Nobody disputes that the changes in the rule book have greatly benefitted the offense but the yardstick to measure the impact is difficult to determine. So Ok ill modify my qualifications for my ranking to take that into account. Still I have never seen the combination of pocket awareness and ability to slide in the pocket, mobility and accuracy on the run that Rodgers possesses. Add to that the ability to draw defenders offside and take advantage of a substitution with a TD strike to Nelson on a throw he seemingly always makes in that situation hes just for my money the very best.

One can only hope our guy can get in that stratosphere at some point.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:31 pm

Rodgers is great.

But Brady is the best followed by Montana. It's all about the Championship and ability to win in the clutch as far as I'm concerned. If you can take your team in a tight game and win it in the 4th quarter or on the last play, that makes you the greatest QB because that is ultimately what it's all about. Put up all the great stats you want during the regular season. Carry your team like Peyton did for years. Throw for a ton of TDs and run for yards. It's all meaningless if you can't finish the winning drive to win that Championship. Out of all the QBs I've watched, Brady and Montana are the best at and it's why they have the most Championships.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:10 pm

I see what you are getting at, but I look at it a little differently.
I try to think who would give the worst teams of their era a chance to be a playoff team.
Would Montana have been able to take the Bucs to the playoffs those winless years? I doubt it, but he probably would have won them a few more games.
Same thing with Brady or Rodgers. How well would they have done with if they had played for the Browns the last 10 years and would we think the same of them?
I doubt it.
The conclusion I come to is the GOAT's are players who lucked into the perfect place for them to achieve their status.
Without head coaches who put them in the best possible position to exploit their talents, and surround them with a supporting cast including position coaches that amplify those talents,
they would in all probability never reach the levels they have.

We only have to look at our own Russell Wilson.
Here's a guy with immense talent who will never get the recognition in Seattle because of the philosophy of Defense first and conservative, ball control Offense.
That combination would hinder Rodgers and Brady, too but they have the advantage of HC's who are either Offensively minded or in Belichick's case OK with being creative
and using players to their advantage.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:23 pm

NorthHawk wrote:I see what you are getting at, but I look at it a little differently.
I try to think who would give the worst teams of their era a chance to be a playoff team.
Would Montana have been able to take the Bucs to the playoffs those winless years? I doubt it, but he probably would have won them a few more games.
Same thing with Brady or Rodgers. How well would they have done with if they had played for the Browns the last 10 years and would we think the same of them?
I doubt it.
The conclusion I come to is the GOAT's are players who lucked into the perfect place for them to achieve their status.
Without head coaches who put them in the best possible position to exploit their talents, and surround them with a supporting cast including position coaches that amplify those talents,
they would in all probability never reach the levels they have.

We only have to look at our own Russell Wilson.
Here's a guy with immense talent who will never get the recognition in Seattle because of the philosophy of Defense first and conservative, ball control Offense.
That combination would hinder Rodgers and Brady, too but they have the advantage of HC's who are either Offensively minded or in Belichick's case OK with being creative
and using players to their advantage.


I don't look at it like that. There are plenty of great teams with great QBs that just can't finish at the right time. Russell Wilson is in that category now. He had a chance to elevate his team to a dynasty by winning back to back championships and he screwed up. There's not amount of talking or excuse making that will change the outcome. He made a bad decision and a bad throw on the most important play of his career and it cost his team a dynasty and him the kind of elite status you obtain from back to back championships. It's what separates the Russell Wilson's from the Montana's and the Brady's.

Bringing up Cleveland is not much of an analogy. Good teams get you to the point where you can win. If you want to be a GOAT QB, you have to make that good or great team win a Championship. You have to look at that 2 to 4 minutes with a 3 or 5 point margin for victory with the Super Bowl win on the line, then get those points. That's how you become the GOAT QB. If you can't do that, you're not the GOAT. You may be elite or great, but not the GOAT. GOAT is about those championships. GOATs for whatever reason can close games. It's in every sport.

Terry Bradshaw has four championships and he's not even close to GOAT discussion. We know who closed those games: The Steel Curtain. That's why they are the GOAT defense or one of the GOATs. When it came down to it, Montana and Brady both showed that they could look the 2 or 3 minutes on the clock in the eye playing against the second best team in the NFL and drive that ball down the field and put it in. Brady did it against our top tier defense. Montana did it against top tier teams as well. To have a chance to be a GOAT, you have to be part of a great team. Then you have to be the man when your team needs that win on their championship run and not screw it up or fail.

Russell failed in his biggest game. Now he's failed multiple times in tight games. He's still a great, playoff caliber QB. He's not even close to a GOAT save in Seattle Franchise History. He's our best ever.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:33 am

I don't look at it like that. There are plenty of great teams with great QBs that just can't finish at the right time. Russell Wilson is in that category now. He had a chance to elevate his team to a dynasty by winning back to back championships and he screwed up. There's not amount of talking or excuse making that will change the outcome. He made a bad decision and a bad throw on the most important play of his career and it cost his team a dynasty and him the kind of elite status you obtain from back to back championships. It's what separates the Russell Wilson's from the Montana's and the Brady's.


I don't think that play in the SB is a good example.
That year Wilson was possibly the most creative and mobile QB in the league who also protected the ball.
What did that call do? It took away his best assets, those things that make him special. If they had him roll out where he could either run, pass, or throw it away it in all probability would have had a different outcome.
I doubt you would ever see a call that limited their special abilities at such an important moment for either Rodgers or Brady and that's what I mean about coaches putting QBs in a position to exploit their talents. In that case, it handcuffed Wilson into throwing it to a WR who was an outside speed guy not an in traffic slot type receiver who might never have run that play before at the goal line if ever.

Regarding QBs on bad teams like Cleveland, nobody will ever know how good those that toiled in obscurity would have fared. Brady would never have had the chance to achieve what he has and that's what I mean about being lucky to be in the right place to take advantage of their abilities.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Hawktawk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:34 am

[quote="NorthHawk
I don't think that play in the SB is a good example.
That year Wilson was possibly the most creative and mobile QB in the league who also protected the ball.
What did that call do? It took away his best assets, those things that make him special. If they had him roll out where he could either run, pass, or throw it away it in all probability would have had a different outcome.
I doubt you would ever see a call that limited their special abilities at such an important moment for either Rodgers or Brady and that's what I mean about coaches putting QBs in a position to exploit their talents. In that case, it handcuffed Wilson into throwing it to a WR who was an outside speed guy not an in traffic slot type receiver who might never have run that play before at the goal line if ever.

Regarding QBs on bad teams like Cleveland, nobody will ever know how good those that toiled in obscurity would have fared. Brady would never have had the chance to achieve what he has and that's what I mean about being lucky to be in the right place to take advantage of their abilities.[/quote]

I think you are not getting my point on Rodgers. Im strictly talking about his pocket elusiveness and arm skill and situational awareness. Its not about anything else, championships whatever. Marino went ofer 1 and never got back and is considered one of the greatest passers of all time. Im just saying as for the pure physical ability to make all the plays nobody touches Arod and the statistics bear that out.


Agreed about Brady and for that matter Montana to a degree. They were in the perfect situation to maximize their talents. Montana with the 9ers had an offense nobody had ever seen or defended against, an offense that lives on until this day it was so revolutionary. In the early years someone was wide open every play, maybe a couple of guys. And yes he was a closer and a master of the comeback. But he had some salty defenses too in those championship years. Hacksaw Reynolds goal line stop preserved their first SB win and in several of the others the defense held the opponent to 10 points or less.

Billacheat is simply the best coach, the GOAT. He's won with Brady when he was a pedestrian stat guy. He won when he was high octane. He won 11 games with matt Cassel and went 3-1 with Garrappalo and Brissett last year getting wins out of both QBs. Last year Brady was headed for the biggest playoff beating of his career until Shanahan inexplicably quit calling running plays with a 25 point lead.

Brady is the luckiest QB alive.

I got to go with asea on *the play* regarding Russ though. Ultimately its on him to make it work or bail out. Its second down. You have a timeout. The call was horrible to be sure but I've watched it a hundred times. Butler is breaking over the top at the snap, already running to where he knows the ball will be based on the formation and Wilson looking over at the receivers on the right side just before the snap.

Still as an anonymous former Seahawks coach from that SB said(Quinn??) "if Russ just puts the ball down low on Lockettes hip its a TD". I agree with that or at a minimum its a PI as there is no way Butler could have gotten to the ball. After the play Wilson is asking "where did he come from"? demonstrating that he didn't even identify him or know where he was pre snap.
Russ is more at fault than anyone on that play and it drastically altered his career and the Seahawks place in history. Right now Russ has plateaued to be generous and he needs to take more steps or he's just going to be another Tyrod Taylor with a better defense.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:45 pm

Rodgers escapism and arm talent is great, no doubt and we will be looking back at his career at some point with much more appreciation as we always do with opponents that are a pain to play against.

I had never considered Russ may have "plateaued" but it would seem to be fairly accurate. The point I was making about the play in the Super Bowl is that you don't limit your best player or players by making that particular call. And that's what that play call did. It negated the talent of the QB, so even if his pass was perfect, it would still have been one of the worst play calls that any team got away with.

However, the real problem is the Offense has regressed the last few years largely because of an ineffective OL so that may be part of Wilson's struggles to finish. That half second that just an average OL would provide or give the run game enough of a push to win games has been missing the last 2 years. We will never know how good he could have been with an offensive minded HC or a creative OC. It seems to me that we are running the same plays we did 2 years ago and opposing Defenses must know how to defend them. It's easier to game plan when there's nothing new under the Offensive sun in Seattle.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Hawktawk » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:21 am

NorthHawk wrote:Rodgers escapism and arm talent is great, no doubt and we will be looking back at his career at some point with much more appreciation as we always do with opponents that are a pain to play against.

I had never considered Russ may have "plateaued" but it would seem to be fairly accurate. The point I was making about the play in the Super Bowl is that you don't limit your best player or players by making that particular call. And that's what that play call did. It negated the talent of the QB, so even if his pass was perfect, it would still have been one of the worst play calls that any team got away with.

However, the real problem is the Offense has regressed the last few years largely because of an ineffective OL so that may be part of Wilson's struggles to finish. That half second that just an average OL would provide or give the run game enough of a push to win games has been missing the last 2 years. We will never know how good he could have been with an offensive minded HC or a creative OC. It seems to me that we are running the same plays we did 2 years ago and opposing Defenses must know how to defend them. It's easier to game plan when there's nothing new under the Offensive sun in Seattle.


I completely agree with your take on the disastrous play. You take away the read option etc. Then you expect kearse to get a free release off of goonish mugger browner and get a rub on butler while your 4th wideout only due to injuries is supposed to be the money man beating the hottest player in the pats secondary .Not only does browner stone kearse in his tracks he actually reaches out and gets a tiny piece of lockettes jersey slowing him just enough. Russ throws the ball 3 feet further to the inside than necessary and lock is lunging for the ball but butler beats him by a whisker. But bottom line Russ threw a bad ball, aimed and soft and too far in front obviously. He took the blame as he should. I hope Seattle has a chance at redemption before the window slams shut .
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Re: The GOAT

Postby trents » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:38 am

Rogers has this uncanny ability to gauge the closing speed of the pass rushers to get out of harm's way and make good decisions with his feet and with the ball. He does that better than anyone. Brady's success is more a product of the system he is in. Nobody does a better job than Belichick and his staff of assessing talent, picking athletes that fit their system and then coaching them up. And no one does a better job of preparing a team for a game than they do either.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Hawktawk » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:50 am

The GOAT for elusiveness and accuracy got roughed up yesterday. Looks like Atlanta is picking up where they left off midway through the 3rd quarter of the SB. They look like the class of the conference once again and the defense looks filthy.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:41 am

Atlanta has the Offense we lust for. Their Defense is pretty much as good as ours - maybe better in some situations.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:38 pm

Hawktawk wrote:I completely agree with your take on the disastrous play. You take away the read option etc. Then you expect kearse to get a free release off of goonish mugger browner and get a rub on butler while your 4th wideout only due to injuries is supposed to be the money man beating the hottest player in the pats secondary .Not only does browner stone kearse in his tracks he actually reaches out and gets a tiny piece of lockettes jersey slowing him just enough. Russ throws the ball 3 feet further to the inside than necessary and lock is lunging for the ball but butler beats him by a whisker. But bottom line Russ threw a bad ball, aimed and soft and too far in front obviously. He took the blame as he should. I hope Seattle has a chance at redemption before the window slams shut .


It was a stupid play call. Russ still threw it. It's plays like that that separate the GOATs from the just great.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby trents » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:56 pm

"Here's a guy with immense talent who will never get the recognition in Seattle because of the philosophy of Defense first and conservative, ball control Offense.
That combination would hinder Rodgers and Brady, too but they have the advantage of HC's who are either Offensively minded or in Belichick's case OK with being creative
and using players to their advantage.
"

I would argue that New England does run a conservative, ball control offense. They just do it with a short and medium range passing game that is effective because of its precision of execution and the best pass blocking O line in the NFL year in and year out.

I also think that RW may be the most dynamic QB in the NFL right now but the coaches need to turn him loose to be what he is.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby trents » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:11 pm

And I'm not sure I would say Lynch is the best Hawks runner of all time. There was once a guy named Curt Warner.
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Re: The GOAT

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:50 pm

trents wrote:"Here's a guy with immense talent who will never get the recognition in Seattle because of the philosophy of Defense first and conservative, ball control Offense.
That combination would hinder Rodgers and Brady, too but they have the advantage of HC's who are either Offensively minded or in Belichick's case OK with being creative
and using players to their advantage.
"

I would argue that New England does run a conservative, ball control offense. They just do it with a short and medium range passing game that is effective because of its precision of execution and the best pass blocking O line in the NFL year in and year out.

I also think that RW may be the most dynamic QB in the NFL right now but the coaches need to turn him loose to be what he is.


The Pats change their Offense to take advantage of their opponent, we do not. That's a big difference.
They aren't welded to a short pass game - they sometimes go heavy run and if they have the talent, throw a lot of deep balls. It depends on their personnel and the opponent.
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