Penalties

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Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:48 am

Drawing flags has always been a problem with Pete's teams, but this season we've gone over the top and it's taken on a new importance. We are by far the worst penalized team, with 91 flags in 9 games, over 10 a game for those of you without access to a calculator, and a full 13 flags ahead of the next worst (NY Jets).

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

What's worse is when you take a look at the other teams that are drawing flags: Of the 10 teams below us, only 2 have winning records (Chiefs and Bills), and most are bona fide abortions, like the Niners, Browns, and Colts.

And the worst of the worst is Ifedi. He has 11 flags to himself, which leads the league for all players, and includes 6 offensive holding penalties, otherwise known as drive killers. And the bad part about Ifedi is that he's a guard, where it's a little easier to get away with holding calls than it is a tackle.

Certainly we've been victimized by bad calls, such as some of those in the Arizona games, but other teams besides us get jobbed, too. IMO this is a direct reflection on our coaches, particularly Tom Cable. Plus it's been getting worse instead of better: We've had double digit penalties in our last 4 games, including 28 in our last two games.

Comments?
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:41 am

Ifedi is a Right Tackle, not Guard, but he is getting flagged more often than he should.
Part of it is learning how to play T as it's basically his rookie year in that position. Another factor is Russ moving so much that he's locked on and doesn't let go.
Some of them will be fixed by technique and experience, but he's probably the type that will get a number of them each year anyway.

As well, reputation tends to be self fulfilling so we may be watched closer than other teams.
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Re: Penalties

Postby idhawkman » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:06 pm

Well lets think about this a bit.

In the off season, I'm pretty sure the league officials go to training on what is holding and what is not, what is PI and what is not, etc. To do this training, they need live examples to show and get the officials feedback on.

Now consider that we have been the most penalized team in the league for a while now. So who do you think they see the "text book" examples of penalties would most often include? Yep, that's right - us. So calling penalites on us is easy since they've seen it all off season and have experience in looking for what our guys do.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:24 pm

NorthHawk wrote:Ifedi is a Right Tackle, not Guard, but he is getting flagged more often than he should.
Part of it is learning how to play T as it's basically his rookie year in that position. Another factor is Russ moving so much that he's locked on and doesn't let go.
Some of them will be fixed by technique and experience, but he's probably the type that will get a number of them each year anyway.

As well, reputation tends to be self fulfilling so we may be watched closer than other teams.


Ugh, yea, forgot about Ifedi sliding out to tackle again. My bad. Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Penalties

Postby politicalfootball » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:33 pm

Penalties are one thing we can get better on . I would like to see Pete Carroll tell the Seahawks to stop them I would like to see Pete Carroll have a incentive for having no penalties.
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Re: Penalties

Postby jshawaii22 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:53 pm

If it's any solace, it was the DLine jumping offsides that was angering us last year and for the most part, we've got that part under control...

Ifedi is another prime example why JS trades us out of the first round more often than not.
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Re: Penalties

Postby jshawaii22 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:55 pm

If it's any solace, it was the DLine jumping offsides that was angering us last year and for the most part, we've got that part under control.

Ifedi is another prime example why JS trades us out of the first round more often than not.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:45 pm

Infedi is in a class by himself, and it is NOT a place any player should want to be in. At this point, to me, it is akin to flunking P.E.

I do shudder to think where we would be if we didn't have a Tom Cable to turns the scraps that Pete and John Schneider provide him to work with. Back when he had better prospects we led the league in rushing so I am a Tom Cable fan. I put the blame where it belongs, on Pete.

Speaking of Pete, it is his culture, his preaching aggressiveness that has led our defensive players to "push the envelop" that can draw flags. But, that does NOT account for the poor O-Line play. Holding is one thing but I really get disgusted when it is a false start or lining up off sides offensive or defensive.

I firmly believe that Pete could, if he wanted to, teach a more disciplined style of play and still be aggressive when it is called for. But, if Pete doesn't emphasize it the players won't bother with it either.

I had hoped that Infedi's play would improve when his "idol" joined the team, but alas, it hasn't happened. I can hardly wait until George Fant returns next season because he was looking really improved, up until he was injured.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:35 am

Seahawks4Ever wrote:Infedi is in a class by himself, and it is NOT a place any player should want to be in. At this point, to me, it is akin to flunking P.E.

I do shudder to think where we would be if we didn't have a Tom Cable to turns the scraps that Pete and John Schneider provide him to work with. Back when he had better prospects we led the league in rushing so I am a Tom Cable fan. I put the blame where it belongs, on Pete.

Speaking of Pete, it is his culture, his preaching aggressiveness that has led our defensive players to "push the envelop" that can draw flags. But, that does NOT account for the poor O-Line play. Holding is one thing but I really get disgusted when it is a false start or lining up off sides offensive or defensive.

I firmly believe that Pete could, if he wanted to, teach a more disciplined style of play and still be aggressive when it is called for. But, if Pete doesn't emphasize it the players won't bother with it either.

I had hoped that Infedi's play would improve when his "idol" joined the team, but alas, it hasn't happened. I can hardly wait until George Fant returns next season because he was looking really improved, up until he was injured.


Cable has been given a number of high draft picks to work with over the past 6 years, including James Carpenter, Germain Ifedi, Justin Britt, John Moffitt, Ethan Pocic, and Rees Odhiambo. Those guys are all 3rd round or higher, and the only one so far to have worked out has been Britt, and it took two position changes before they found a way to salvage him. Plus Britt is the only lineman, draft pick or otherwise, to have performed well enough to be given a 2nd contract during Cable's tenure. So although it's true that the OL hasn't been given the same amount of attention that the defense has, to say that all Cable's had to work with is scraps isn't accurate.

Plus Cable is very much a part of the war room on draft day. If he wants a player bad enough, Pete's going to listen to him. It's not like he's some sort of bottom feeder that Pete occasionally tosses a bone to where the conversation would go like "we don't have a defensive player or wide receiver we want, so let's give this pick to Cable."

And I reject the notion that our woes are all due to the refs having it out for us. We have 30 pre snap penalties, most in the league and tied with two dead-from-the-neck-up teams in the 49'ers and Chargers, and we've played one less game than the Niners. It's pretty hard to complain of biased officiating on those.
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Re: Penalties

Postby idhawkman » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:57 am

I believe that John Carpenter worked out. I wish we still had him at LG. With him and Britt and Brown (when healthy) together, i think we could have a run game behind them like we had in 2007.
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Re: Penalties

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:21 am

I don't remember everything about Carpenter, but I do remember him manhandling perennial Pro Bowler Justin "The Cowboy" Smith on a goal-to-go rushing play that resulted in a TD. Not many Olineman could pull that off. I'd love to have a hog like that on the line again.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:29 am

Have we drafted any OL that is still in the position they started on this team?
How many have lasted more than 2 years at one position after being drafted - or even on the team with solid expectations of becoming a starter in the near future?
I can't think of many so it seems there are a few things going on.

What might it be?
1) Poor drafting of players?
2) Bad coaching?
3) Complicated blocking scheme that's too much for players that are largely untrained from college to learn?
4) Other?
5) All 4 above?

We do know that a couple of players that were drafted and not re-signed are starters on other teams, and Carpenter is playing pretty well, but why weren't they kept?
For me, losing Carpenter was a mistake, but Sweezy wasn't and still isn't that good of a Guard. Others never really panned out anywhere.
I blame a big part of it on the blocking scheme.

Consider the following:
There are very few players coming from College that are ready to play OL in the NFL.
Not all are athletic enough to play in a ZBS and not all are powerful enough to play in a Drive (or Man) blocking scheme.
We are looking for players who can do both.

I think it's unrealistic to find them on a regular basis and it is necessarily so that the size of the draft candidate pool is smaller than in either of the other 2 schemes.
It also means there is a lot more learning required for competence in a hybrid system in an early part of their career.
So we end up converting players from other positions to the OL in the hopes they can make the transition. They are good stories when they work, but they rarely do and a lot of
coaching may be lost to the players drafted who are OL prospects when the attention is on the conversion projects. With limited coaching time courtesy of the CBA, it can only
be a net negative for the drafted prospects that have at least some of the basics from College.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:59 am

idhawkman wrote:I believe that John Carpenter worked out. I wish we still had him at LG. With him and Britt and Brown (when healthy) together, i think we could have a run game behind them like we had in 2007.


James Carpenter.

He was a huge bust at tackle, perhaps the worst performing OL for a high draft pick in Seahawk history with the exception of Andre Hines. He had one good year, ironically his contract year when he finally smelled the roses, lost a bunch of weight, and played well enough to start. Before that, he got beat out by a journeyman, Paul McQuistan, and even though he was perfectly healthy, didn't even suit up for a couple of playoff games. He had one positive attribute: Straight ahead drive blocking. He wasn't quick enough to get to the second level and block linebackers, nor was he quick enough to pull and throw a decent trap block, and he was horrid at pass protection.

It was a totally wasted first round pick, and Cable had to be out of his mind if he thought that Carpenter had what it takes to be an NFL OT.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:04 am

And yet on the Jets, he's become a very good Guard and they were surprised how good his pass blocking was and is.
It was to the point that they were considering trying to tout him as a Pro Bowl selection.
In his case, I think it had to do with system fit and finally settling down in one position. Both of which speak to coaching.
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Re: Penalties

Postby idhawkman » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:25 pm

RiverDog wrote:
James Carpenter.

He was a huge bust at tackle, perhaps the worst performing OL for a high draft pick in Seahawk history with the exception of Andre Hines. He had one good year, ironically his contract year when he finally smelled the roses, lost a bunch of weight, and played well enough to start. Before that, he got beat out by a journeyman, Paul McQuistan, and even though he was perfectly healthy, didn't even suit up for a couple of playoff games. He had one positive attribute: Straight ahead drive blocking. He wasn't quick enough to get to the second level and block linebackers, nor was he quick enough to pull and throw a decent trap block, and he was horrid at pass protection.

It was a totally wasted first round pick, and Cable had to be out of his mind if he thought that Carpenter had what it takes to be an NFL OT.


You lost me a little bit there River. Carpenter was a good LG that opened holes for our RBs. Look at Rawls and Beast and where they got their hard yards that 2014 season. It was behind Carp. Not as a tackle though. That said, you seemed to focus on him as a tackle and then said he couldn't pull and throw a trap block but I don't think many Tackles pull at all in the NFL. I saw him numerous times at the second level when playing LG, too. I'm not sure we watched the same guy though. The one you described is not familiar to me.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:58 am

idhawkman wrote:You lost me a little bit there River. Carpenter was a good LG that opened holes for our RBs. Look at Rawls and Beast and where they got their hard yards that 2014 season. It was behind Carp. Not as a tackle though. That said, you seemed to focus on him as a tackle and then said he couldn't pull and throw a trap block but I don't think many Tackles pull at all in the NFL. I saw him numerous times at the second level when playing LG, too. I'm not sure we watched the same guy though. The one you described is not familiar to me.


Not sure how I lost you, but I'll try it again.

James Carpenter was drafted in the first round as an offensive tackle. He was a huge bust at that position, was way too slow to handle an edge rush. He reported to training camp so far out of shape that he couldn't last 2 plays without sucking air like a vacuum cleaner. He didn't play a full season, got hurt, and we gave up on him as a tackle. IMO the fact that Cable even thought that Carpenter had what it takes to be an offensive tackle says volumes about his lack of judgement.

The following season they moved him to guard. He didn't do well there, either. He had one good attribute, straight ahead run blocking, particularly in short yardage situations. He still kept getting beat pass blocking and he didn't have the quickness to either get out to the 2nd level and cut off a linebacker or pull and lead a running back. In a nutshell, he was too God damn slow. He was so bad that by the end of the 2013 season, he had lost his starting job to a journeyman lineman by the name of Paul McQuistran and at one point, although fully healthy, did not suit up for several playoff games (Saints and Niners).

In his last season with us, his contract year, he lost a bunch of weight as he apparently had a Come to Jesus moment and got into the best physical shape of his professional career, and played relatively well that last year with us, yet still not good enough to earn a 2nd contract.

Carpenter was never a good fit for this offense, either as a guard or a tackle. He was too much of a plodder to play in the ZBS, too easy to step around, which I suspect is why we didn't bring him back after he finally got into shape and started playing and why he seems to be thriving in another system. He was a wasted draft choice. All we did was prep him for another team.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:36 am

9 penalties for 106 yards last night. Over the last 3 games, we've committed 37 accepted penalties for 352 yards.

Simply unacceptable.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Largent80 » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 am

Hawks gave them 4 first downs via penalty and they gave up 4 in ONE DRIVE vs. Wash.

Another eye popping stat(s) just from last night is they gave up 9 first downs out of 14 tries.

Check out the stats, we outplayed them in so many areas.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=400951818
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Re: Penalties

Postby idhawkman » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:23 am

Largent80 wrote:Hawks gave them 4 first downs via penalty and they gave up 4 in ONE DRIVE vs. Wash.

Another eye popping stat(s) just from last night is they gave up 9 first downs out of 14 tries.

Check out the stats, we outplayed them in so many areas.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup?gameId=400951818


If you look at straight stats, we should have won but if you add in the penalty yards, they out gained us. Ridiculous.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:15 pm

With Russell scrambling, we are going to get more holding calls than a QB that can't move.
It seems to happen with all teams who's QB scrambles a lot and in many cases it's because the OL locks onto the DL, then the QB moves and when the DL follows the QB, the OL doesn't let go soon enough and the jersey is stretched.
It takes a lot of experience for the OL to learn how to play in front of a mobile QB - and that's something our OL doesn't much have - on the Right side at least.

I think it's part of not keeping the OL together over a period of time and that's the result of letting players we've developed leave or not picking up players that have the talent to play.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Largent80 » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:55 am

Check THIS out, and I know each individual is responsible for their own play but this is a coaching problem (yes, another one)...

In net count of penalties, Seattle is setting a pace no other team can currently match.

Net penalties (own minus opponents’)

5. Kansas City, 16

4. Denver, 16

3. Buffalo, 17

2. San Francisco, 20

1. Seattle, 36

Net yardage lost via penalties

5. Cincinnati -117

4. San Francisco -134

3. Dallas -148

2. Kansas City -175

1. Seattle -319

You’re reading both lists right, and with the right amount of disbelief, if you realize the Seahawks have been, relative to their opponents, penalized about as much as the second-and third-most flagged teams combined.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:02 am

NorthHawk wrote:With Russell scrambling, we are going to get more holding calls than a QB that can't move.
It seems to happen with all teams who's QB scrambles a lot and in many cases it's because the OL locks onto the DL, then the QB moves and when the DL follows the QB, the OL doesn't let go soon enough and the jersey is stretched.
It takes a lot of experience for the OL to learn how to play in front of a mobile QB - and that's something our OL doesn't much have - on the Right side at least.

I think it's part of not keeping the OL together over a period of time and that's the result of letting players we've developed leave or not picking up players that have the talent to play.


Although I agree that there's some validity in what you're saying, offensive holding penalties, although bad, can't be pointed to as the root cause of our penalty woes. Even though we lead the league by a wide margin in total penalties, nearly 20% more than the next most penalized team, we only rank 4th in offensive holding calls. Our penalties seem to be very widespread between both offense and defense.

Here's a breakdown of how we match up against the rest of the league by penalty:

Offensive Holding: 4th
False Start: 4th
Defensive Holding: 10th
Defensive PI: 2nd
Defensive Offside: 3rd
Unnecessary Roughness: 20th
Illegal Block Above the Waist: 5th
Illegal Use of Hands: 1st
Offensive PI: 5th
Delay of Game: 32nd

http://www.nflpenalties.com/?year=2017

I've been harping about this issue for years, ever since Pete took over. It's a real downside to his laissez-faire management style.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:07 am

Don't get me wrong. It's a problem that has to be fixed, but the point I was making was inexperience on the OL contributes to problem.
As well, as I said earlier, these things snowball as Referees tend to look closer at teams that have a reputation for committing fouls than those that don't.
That, naturally means we don't get many breaks with close calls.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:26 am

NorthHawk wrote:Don't get me wrong. It's a problem that has to be fixed, but the point I was making was inexperience on the OL contributes to problem.
As well, as I said earlier, these things snowball as Referees tend to look closer at teams that have a reputation for committing fouls than those that don't.
That, naturally means we don't get many breaks with close calls.


I understood and agreed with the point you were making. I as simply playing off of your comments to make my own point.

And you're right, reputation has a lot to do with penalties. It's akin to teenage kids getting speeding tickets while driving slower than I do in my little Nissan pickup.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Largent80 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:22 am

In the Washington game the DEFENSE made 4 fouls in one drive, giving them first downs with each of them. That led to the points they used to beat us. It's certainly NOT just the offense.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:22 am

Largent80 wrote:In the Washington game the DEFENSE made 4 fouls in one drive, giving them first downs with each of them. That led to the points they used to beat us. It's certainly NOT just the offense.


The same thing happened against Arizona.

Take a look at the distribution of penalties that I posted above, and it bears out what we're both saying, that the penalty issue is widespread throughout the entire team. It used to be that some people would argue that fouls of an aggressive nature weren't all that bad, that it indicated a certain intimidation factor a nastiness about our team. But our unnecessary roughness penalties have been under relatively good control as it's the only penalty in which we rank in the lower 50%. The only other penalty that we rank in the lower 50% is delay of game.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:59 am

Only 6 accepted penalties in this game. Is it any coincidence that it was one of our largest margin of victories of the season (taking away the Niners last TD)?
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Re: Penalties

Postby Largent80 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:34 am

Also zero offensive holding penalties and Zero D.P.I calls.

These are huge differences that allow the team to actually be the team that we all know they can be.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:20 am

Consider the opponent.
They didn't need to get much of an "edge" to win, so they didn't have to commit fouls.
It might be part of the perception that we play down to our opponent.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:27 am

Huge improvement in the past couple of games. We had 7 against the Dirty Birds, 6 against the Niners, and now just 5 against the Eagles.

So what's the difference? Better OL play? Or just better discipline overall?
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Re: Penalties

Postby Largent80 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:04 am

They have worked hard at RW's style of play by letting go of holding their man. They just try to get in front of someone after releasing. This will work sometimes, and sometimes not.

I'm happy with the downturn in DPI calls except the last one on Griffin was as B.S. as they get.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:54 am

I wonder if the fact that Richard Sherman isn't in the secondary anymore has some sort of effect, perhaps influencing the mindset of the refs?
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:39 am

RiverDog wrote:I wonder if the fact that Richard Sherman isn't in the secondary anymore has some sort of effect, perhaps influencing the mindset of the refs?


Hmm. Human psychology being what it is, maybe and maybe because we are hurting in the secondary also factors in.
We always talk about Refs trying to even things up with other teams or games, maybe it's working in our favor.

Then again, we could get 20 thrown against us on Sunday...
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Re: Penalties

Postby idhawkman » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:06 am

I think you strike a point Riv. I have been thinking this since Sherm and Kam went down. They don't need to skew the field anymore so they let them play a bit more.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Largent80 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:08 am

I'm sorry but I'm not thinking like the above posters.

The refs have been put on notice and held accountable.

Sunday Nights game was one of the best officiated games I have seen all year.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:27 pm

Largent80 wrote:I'm sorry but I'm not thinking like the above posters.

The refs have been put on notice and held accountable.

Sunday Nights game was one of the best officiated games I have seen all year.


But Monday night's game was a terrible example of officiating.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:39 pm

idhawkman wrote:I think you strike a point Riv. I have been thinking this since Sherm and Kam went down. They don't need to skew the field anymore so they let them play a bit more.


It may be just a coincidence, but our decline in penalties coincides with almost exactly with Sherman going down. We had 12 penalties vs Arizona with none in the 4th quarter.
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