This was fricking embarrasing

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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:14 pm

mykc14 wrote:I don't think anybody being embarrassed by the end of that game needs to leave the forum or turn their fan card in. In fact, they have every right to be embarrassed by that display. Who are you to say what should or shouldn't embarrass them? We all have a right to expect a certain level of sportsmanship from our team and when somebody feels like our team isn't living up to that standard then it is their right to say they don't like it. I don't see why this bothers you so much.


10-4. I'm glad that you said it.

The very existence of this forum is so that we may have a venue to express our opinions and vent our emotions without being chided or told that we're not true fans if we don't all belly up to the Kool Aid bar.

If those were my kids out there, I'd be very, very embarrassed at their lack of sportsmanship and would be looking at myself in the mirror wondering where it was that I went wrong, where was it that I failed them. I would take it very personal, and would not be trying to excuse or rationalize their behavior. So I ask you, L80, is it so bad for me to be treating my Seahawks as if they were a part of my family?

Interestingly, it looks like we won't suffer any suspensions as a result of this incident:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/no ... spartanntp
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:28 pm

I expected them to get at least 1 game from it, but I'll take a hefty fine instead.

I'm mildly embarrassed, but not that offended. Some teams are just like that. Take the old time Raiders - They were successful and played on the very edge.
We'll look back in a few years when all these players are gone with fondness for their competitive spirit and the success it gave them.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:57 pm

NorthHawk wrote:Take the old time Raiders - They were successful and played on the very edge.


I like rooting for the good guys, the guys wearing the white hats. I want to see good, clean honest play win out over the hit them when the ref isn't looking dirty play that the Raiders were noted for. Basically I want to see good triumph over evil.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:39 am

We've already been painted with the black hat and that's not going away any time soon.
There was something like 50 seconds left, so playing the full game is something that Pete teaches and demands - and I don't have a problem with that.
The little bit of wrestling at the end I can live with. It's not like it's going on all game long.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby Largent80 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:44 am

I don't know if anyone here remembers the Joe Pisarcik fumble on the very last play of the game to seal the win on Monday Night Football back in the 70's but Tony Dungy ran it back for the winning TD with no time left on the clock. Every second and every blade of grass until the last whistle blows.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:45 am

NorthHawk wrote:We've already been painted with the black hat and that's not going away any time soon.
There was something like 50 seconds left, so playing the full game is something that Pete teaches and demands - and I don't have a problem with that.
The little bit of wrestling at the end I can live with. It's not like it's going on all game long.


What you say is true. We have been characterized, some of it fair, some of it unfair, as the guys in the black hats. IMO there's enough Russell Wilsons on this team to cancel out the Michael Bennetts. I'm not sure if I could look myself in the mirror if they all wore black hats.

You are way, way understating the activity on the kneel down as "a little bit of wrestling."
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:49 am

Largent80 wrote:I don't know if anyone here remembers the Joe Pisarcik fumble on the very last play of the game to seal the win on Monday Night Football back in the 70's but Tony Dungy ran it back for the winning TD with no time left on the clock. Every second and every blade of grass until the last whistle blows.


I do, but it wasn't on MNF as I can clearly remember the game being played in the daytime. The fullback that was supposed to get the ball was Larry Czonka, and if I recall, the Giants head coach was fired shortly thereafter.

That was the last time that an NFL team that had a lead like that when they had the ability to run out the clock ended up losing. From that point forward, teams started using a kneel down, victory formation. That had to have been 40 years ago.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby Largent80 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:53 am

It was Herm Edwards.And I was thinking of a different game, but this in fact happened. And it is why you battle until the end, otherwise why have a clock at all? If a team chooses to kill the clock that way, they are NOT exempt from any defensive play that is within the rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_a ... eadowlands
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:57 am

What you say is true. We have been characterized, some of it fair, some of it unfair, as the guys in the black hats. IMO there's enough Russell Wilsons on this team to cancel out the Michael Bennetts. I'm not sure if I could look myself in the mirror if they all wore black hats.

You are way, way understating the activity on the kneel down as "a little bit of wrestling."


He went after the ball. A small chance, but still a chance to cause a mistake or turnover. His momentum took him into the Center who took offense and the melee started and things escalated from there.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:06 am

NorthHawk wrote:He went after the ball. A small chance, but still a chance to cause a mistake or turnover. His momentum took him into the Center who took offense and the melee started and things escalated from there.


A damn small chance. It's never happened in all the kneel downs in the NFL in the past 40 years.

It sure looked to me like he intentionally rolled up on the center's legs.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:10 am

What they need to do is what baseball has done with the intentional walk: If the offense chooses to run out the clock, make it so that they don't have to take the snap.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby mykc14 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:31 am

RiverDog wrote:
It sure looked to me like he intentionally rolled up on the center's legs.


I would re-watch that from the perspective of what Bennett was actually trying to do. First of all he doesn't roll. It's hard to 'roll-up' on somebody's legs when you don't roll. He fires out, swiping at the ball with all of his momentum going forward. When he swipes and misses he goes to the ground, still falling forward, which brings him into the center. After he hits the ground there is no attempt for him to go into the center anymore or hit his knees or anything like that. The center lays on him and then stands over him.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:16 am

mykc14 wrote:I would re-watch that from the perspective of what Bennett was actually trying to do. First of all he doesn't roll. It's hard to 'roll-up' on somebody's legs when you don't roll. He fires out, swiping at the ball with all of his momentum going forward. When he swipes and misses he goes to the ground, still falling forward, which brings him into the center. After he hits the ground there is no attempt for him to go into the center anymore or hit his knees or anything like that. The center lays on him and then stands over him.


Pete Carroll disagrees with you:

On the first, Bennett reached low to try to swipe the ball away from Jacksonville center Brandon Linder and force a fumble. Only, it didn’t end there as Bennett dove at Linder’s knees....

"That’s something he has tried before and that’s why he was way down there on the ground because he was trying to time it up and hit it trying to force a fumble to get the ball back,’’ Carroll said. “So he winds up underneath the whole pile of stuff. The stuff that happened after that (including Bennett's actions) was wrong.

The rolling up on the center's legs, or what ever you want to call it, came way, way after the whistle had blown. Even Bennett himself is described by Carroll as being "remorseful". If it was as innocent as you are claiming, then why is the perpetrator "remorseful"?

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... like-that/

In a situation like that, under 2 minutes in a half or a game and with the opponent unable to stop the clock, I still think that they should just suspend the play clock and allow the offense to let the game clock run without snapping the ball.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby trents » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:57 am

"Pete has been very successful with his philosophy and I wouldn't trade him for any other coach in the league, but his style does have its downside, part of which was on display yesterday afternoon."

Would you trade him for Bill Belichick? Why is it the Patriots seem to be able to keep the "window" from closing for such an extended period and are able to be perennial super bowl contenders? And they seem to run a pretty tight ship. There's a lot more to it than just Brady.


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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:10 pm

trents wrote:"Would you trade him for Bill Belichick? Why is it the Patriots seem to be able to keep the "window" from closing for such an extended period and are able to be perennial super bowl contenders? And they seem to run a pretty tight ship. There's a lot more to it than just Brady.


We haven't seen Belichek without Tom Brady, so we don't know how good of a coach he would be without a HOF quarterback.

But your point is well taken. Belichek is the best, bar none. I was being intentionally melodramatic.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:36 pm

Largent80 wrote:It was Herm Edwards.And I was thinking of a different game, but this in fact happened. And it is why you battle until the end, otherwise why have a clock at all? If a team chooses to kill the clock that way, they are NOT exempt from any defensive play that is within the rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_a ... eadowlands


No one's ever argued that you shouldn't battle to the very end. The problem is what happened after the whistle.

And that event was 39 years ago, and before teams got smart and came up with the victory formation. Since then, not a single team has been successful at turning the ball over in a kneel down situation, which is the way a large percentage of games have ended for almost 4 decades. Just taking an uneducated guess, if 50% of all games end in at least one kneel down, not even considering that many end in 2 or 3 kneel downs, that's somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 kneel downs without a turnover.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby mykc14 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:14 pm

RiverDog wrote:Pete Carroll disagrees with you:

"That’s something he has tried before and that’s why he was way down there on the ground because he was trying to time it up and hit it trying to force a fumble to get the ball back,’’ Carroll said. “So he winds up underneath the whole pile of stuff. The stuff that happened after that (including Bennett's actions) was wrong.
[/i]

The rolling up on the center's legs, or what ever you want to call it, came way, way after the whistle had blown. Even Bennett himself is described by Carroll as being "remorseful". If it was as innocent as you are claiming, then why is the perpetrator "remorseful"?

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... like-that/

In a situation like that, under 2 minutes in a half or a game and with the opponent unable to stop the clock, I still think that they should just suspend the play clock and allow the offense to let the game clock run without snapping the ball.


Nothing in there has Carroll saying anything about Bennett rolling into the center's knees. The national discussion about what Bennett did has to do with what what he did when the ball was snapped, not afterwards. The idea of rolling into a guys knees has preventative connotations and intent to injure. That's not what happened with Bennett. I don't think there is any debate about whether or not his extra curricular actions were ok or not. At the same time I don't see him rolling into anybody's knees. I see him grabbing a guy by the leg and trying to tackle him... not ok but certainly much less malicious than rolling into somebody's legs. I don't think he had any thought of hurting anybody.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:25 pm

mykc14 wrote:https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seahawks/seahawks-coach-pete-carroll-on-end-of-game-melee-at-jacksonville-everybody-is-remorseful-we-dont-want-to-play-like-that/


Nothing in there has Carroll saying anything about Bennett rolling into the center's knees. The national discussion about what Bennett did has to do with what what he did when the ball was snapped, not afterwards. The idea of rolling into a guys knees has preventative connotations and intent to injure. That's not what happened with Bennett. I don't think there is any debate about whether or not his extra curricular actions were ok or not. At the same time I don't see him rolling into anybody's knees. I see him grabbing a guy by the leg and trying to tackle him... not ok but certainly much less malicious than rolling into somebody's legs. I don't think he had any thought of hurting anybody.


If you read the full article, you will see that when Carroll made the remark about what was wrong he was referring to Bennett's actions after the whistle, ie rolling up on the center's legs. Pete went to great lengths to defend Bennett's actions before the whistle.

Same goes for Bennett's being remorseful. I hardly think that he'd feel remorseful about trying to win the game.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby mykc14 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:31 pm

RiverDog wrote:
If you read the full article, you will see that when Carroll made the remark about what was wrong he was referring to Bennett's actions after the whistle, ie rolling up on the center's legs. Pete went to great lengths to defend Bennett's actions before the whistle.

Same goes for Bennett's being remorseful. I hardly think that he'd feel remorseful about trying to win the game.


I don't think there is any debate about the fact that what Bennett did after the whistle was wrong, and I have read the full article. My issue is with the idea that he 'rolled up on somebody's legs.' The national debate about him purposefully rolling up on the center's legs has been about him swiping at the ball. After the play he didn't roll up on anybody's legs. He grabbed the guy by the leg and tried to tackle him. At no point did he roll up on the center's legs. Again, to me (and I think most people who have ever played football) somebody maliciously rolling up on another players legs implies an attempt to injury and is usually premeditated.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:11 pm

mykc14 wrote:I don't think there is any debate about the fact that what Bennett did after the whistle was wrong, and I have read the full article. My issue is with the idea that he 'rolled up on somebody's legs.' The national debate about him purposefully rolling up on the center's legs has been about him swiping at the ball. After the play he didn't roll up on anybody's legs. He grabbed the guy by the leg and tried to tackle him. At no point did he roll up on the center's legs. Again, to me (and I think most people who have ever played football) somebody maliciously rolling up on another players legs implies an attempt to injury and is usually premeditated.


I won't continue to argue about whether Bennett dove at the center's legs or he rolled over them. He clearly kept going after the center's legs long after the whistle had sounded.

I'm not sure why the Jacksonville players would have reacted the way they did if it was all as incidental and innocent as you are suggesting. They were obviously in a good mood and not looking for a fight as they were about to win the game.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby Hawktawk » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:46 pm

RiverDog wrote:
We haven't seen Belichek without Tom Brady, so we don't know how good of a coach he would be without a HOF quarterback.

But your point is well taken. Belichek is the best, bar none. I was being intentionally melodramatic.


Yes we have. In 2008 Brady went down in the opener. Belichick went 11-5 with Matt Cassel and unluckily became the first 11 win team to miss the playoffs. I hope we can get 11 wins with Russ at QB
Just last year he went 3-1 with Jimmy Garoppolo and Jacoby Brissett including beating the Cards in the roaster to open the season.We know how it ended even with Brady playing horribly for 3 quarters...

Belichick is the best and hes lapped the field. I don't think much of him as a person or a sportsman but he is the GOAT.
Brady would have had a career in the league regardless.Probably a great career but hes the luckiest QB in the history of the game to go play for that guy.
What other coach benches Drew Bledsoe in his prime due to injury? We may never have known about Brady because my guess is Bledsoe would have had success in the system as well.
But Bill saw something even though Brady's early #s were pedestrian game manager stats at best.
Id Trade Pete for BB :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby mykc14 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:01 pm

RiverDog wrote:I'm not sure why the Jacksonville players would have reacted the way they did if it was all as incidental and innocent as you are suggesting. They were obviously in a good mood and not looking for a fight as they were about to win the game.


Where did I say it was innocent? I have said multiple times what he did after the play was wrong and I didn't like it. All I am saying is I don't think in any way he was trying to hurt anybody. He was frustrated and let his emotions get the most of him. To me there is a big difference between frustration boiling over after a play (what happened on Sunday) and an attempt to hurt somebody (what people are suggesting happened of Sunday). You and I both totally agree that what happened after the play was wrong. What we disagree about is whether or not he 'rolled up on' the centers knees maliciously.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:27 pm

mykc14 wrote:Where did I say it was innocent? I have said multiple times what he did after the play was wrong and I didn't like it. All I am saying is I don't think in any way he was trying to hurt anybody. He was frustrated and let his emotions get the most of him. To me there is a big difference between frustration boiling over after a play (what happened on Sunday) and an attempt to hurt somebody (what people are suggesting happened of Sunday). You and I both totally agree that what happened after the play was wrong. What we disagree about is whether or not he 'rolled up on' the centers knees maliciously.


You gave me the impression that the activity was relatively innocent since you felt that nothing that went on justified a suspension, ie the players were "innocent" of the suspension "charges".

Neither of us can judge Bennett's intent. But when players continue to scuffle after the play is over it's pretty much either trying to intimidate or to inflict some degree of hurt on the opponent or self defense/retaliation. Watching the play live, I thought that Bennett was trying to hurt someone as I don't know why he'd continue to struggle after the whistle had blown, but I'm not going to try to claim that as a fact.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby mykc14 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:40 pm

[quote=“RiverDog”]

You gave me the impression that the activity was relatively innocent since you felt that nothing that went on justified a suspension, ie the players were "innocent" of the suspension "charges".

Neither of us can judge Bennett's intent. But when players continue to scuffle after the play is over it's pretty much either trying to intimidate or to inflict some degree of hurt on the opponent or self defense/retaliation. Watching the play live, I thought that Bennett was trying to hurt someone as I don't know why he'd continue to struggle after the whistle had blown, but I'm not going to try to claim that as a fact.[/quote]

Got it. In that regard I would say he is innocent of a suspension worthy offense. I also agree we have no idea his intentions, I often see ‘extra curricular’ fighting/pushing/etc as an act of frustration and not an attempt to hurt somebody but that’s just me. There clearly are times when one player is trying to hurt somebody else. The incident between Crabtree and Talib certainly had that feel...
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:37 pm

mykc14 wrote:Got it. In that regard I would say he is innocent of a suspension worthy offense. I also agree we have no idea his intentions, I often see ‘extra curricular’ fighting/pushing/etc as an act of frustration and not an attempt to hurt somebody but that’s just me. There clearly are times when one player is trying to hurt somebody else. The incident between Crabtree and Talib certainly had that feel...


I feel that there were other factors as to why we didn't see any suspensions following this incident:

It's playoff time, and I don't think that the league wants to interfere with the outcomes this late in the season. Additionally, the man at the center of the storm, Michael Bennett, was not only one of the more vocal activits in the kneel downs this season and was in the headlines in the Las Vegas detainment, he was our nominee for the Walter Payton Man of the Year award. It would have been a huge distraction and sent the absolute wrong message of the peachy clean, mom and apple pie organization they want people to believe that constitutes their make-up.

Consequently, it's my opinion that the league was looking for reasons not to suspend any players and was more than happy to sweep this incident under the carpet.
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Re: This was fricking embarrasing

Postby mykc14 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:49 pm

RiverDog wrote:
I feel that there were other factors as to why we didn't see any suspensions following this incident:

It's playoff time, and I don't think that the league wants to interfere with the outcomes this late in the season. Additionally, the man at the center of the storm, Michael Bennett, was not only one of the more vocal activits in the kneel downs this season and was in the headlines in the Las Vegas detainment, he was our nominee for the Walter Payton Man of the Year award. It would have been a huge distraction and sent the absolute wrong message of the peachy clean, mom and apple pie organization they want people to believe that constitutes their make-up.

Consequently, it's my opinion that the league was looking for reasons not to suspend any players and was more than happy to sweep this incident under the carpet.


I would not put it past the league to do something like that, but personally I would have to see a more obvious suspension type situation before I could get to that point. Maybe something similar to what Crabtree did or Gronk. On a side note I was really surprised to see Juju Smith Shuster get suspended for his block on Burfict. It will be interstitial if anything else comes up with Bennett and he gets suspended... or doesn’t and should.
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