Lets talk O-Line

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Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:27 pm

OK, so that o-line played it's 5th game together. One would think that there may be some continuity.
This is not the case because there was constantly one guy getting completely blown up especially on runs.
Did you see Britt get exploded 3 yards into the backfield at the goal line?

I'm sorry but although there is an argument that Cable has been given turds to polish the FO has invested high draft pick and money into the line and he's not getting results.

Time to build a fire under his ass.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:48 pm

Cable needs to go. No other discussion about the offensive line is necessary until that happens.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:52 pm

RiverDog wrote:Cable needs to go. No other discussion about the offensive line is necessary until that happens.


I think the problem is more a lack of talent, and more specifically an unwillingness to retain what talent that we have drafted once their money contract is due, than it is a coaching issue.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:41 pm

Well, Sweezy bolted and didn't play a single snap last year and was IR'd this year. We had Okung for 2 contracts and traded Unger in his second one.

Carpenter was the only other guy I can think of that was worth a crap and it took him 3 years to get there.
Gilliam stunk.
Blowinski sucked

Can't think of any others.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby idhawkman » Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:21 pm

I think Sweezy is on the Bucs roster - maybe he was IRd early but I think I saw his name on the field last week.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:36 pm

Okung has still started every game he's ever played in the NFL at LT. Still just the one Pro Bowl, but he'd still be our best lineman if we'd kept him.

James Carpenter has also started every game he's ever played in the NFL. Not a Pro Bowler, but better than what we've been making do with at guard since he left.

After missing 2016 with back surgery Sweezy started every snap this year for the Bucs, till going on IR after week 14. He has started every game since his second year in the league after three starts in year one while he learned the position.

We'll see if we choose to extend any of the linemen we've drafted since these guys.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:03 pm

All 3 of those guys went chasing money and found it elsewhere. You simply cannot pay everyone.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:37 pm

Largent80 wrote:All 3 of those guys went chasing money


That can be said of every player in the league going into their second contract.

Largent80 wrote:You simply cannot pay everyone.


No, but we've become pretty adept at not paying anyone.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:50 pm

No, but we've become pretty adept at not paying anyone.


Pretty sure you mean "we've become pretty adept at not paying any of our offensive linemen."; the FO has gone the distance with many of the critical pieces, and that is still the crux of the issue. You can't keep all your stars on defense, a franchise QB, and half decent (Baldwin is more than half decent) offensive skill positions, and then expect to have great offensive linemen.

They hung their hat on acquiring inexpensive talent and developing it. It has not worked very well, but, Largent80 is right; where do you get the money? Seattle finally made a big offensive line move, and it was costly, in both cap and draft capital.

I'm no more happy about the offensive line than anyone else here, but there's no way they could all get paid.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:57 pm

Offensive line is the subject being discussed, of course that's what I was referring to.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:59 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:James Carpenter has also started every game he's ever played in the NFL. Not a Pro Bowler, but better than what we've been making do with at guard since he left.


Carpenter was beat out by Paul McQuistran midway into our Lombardi season and wasn't even active for at least one of the playoff games that season, and I'm almost certain it wasn't because he was injured. Carpenter started 10 games that season, and it didn't include the SB or the playoffs. The following season, MCquistan left for more money and Carpenter, in the final year of his contract, got into the best shape of his pro career and was finally productive.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:23 pm

O-line coach has a strong say in the talent we choose. Okung and Unger, our only two pro bowl O-lineman, were chosen by previous O-line coaches and GMs. Cable himself hasn't chosen a single pro bowl O-lineman. Most of his guys are middle of the pack at best. He's been here six years now with Russell Wilson at QB and Marshawn Lynch as RB to help mask his shortcomings.

Time to go in a different direction at O-line. See if a new coach can choose better groceries. It doesn't matter how good a coach you are if you can't pick guys that can perform at a high level. He's been given plenty of good picks in the 2nd and 3rd round as well as a 1st rounder in Carpenter. We've seen very little success on the O-line even with of the best running QB in history.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:32 pm

Britt just signed an extension this year. And all of us can opine for a change in coaches and philosophy but we don't own the team or cut the checks, we just observe and shell out money to go to games, pay for tv and swag.

I'm still going to watch but my time of spending hard earned money for buying my way into a game or for a $300 shirt are over partly because of what I view as obvious shortcomings that the team doesn't.

My little amount is just that however, if I'm doing it, I'm pretty sure others are as well.

The salary cap has it's merits but it also has many downfalls and loyalty isn't a byproduct. Whereas fan loyalty is almost a given to owners and coaches.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:52 pm

Cable is not only the OL coach, he's the assistant head coach. That tells me that he has a lot of suck, more so than Bevell, at least when it comes to personnel decisions along the OL. I have no doubt that he's right in the middle of the failure to resign Okung, Carpenter, and Sweezy as well as the trading of Unger.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Sox-n-hawks » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:37 pm

Part of the O-Line issue is self discipline. STOP jumping offsides. The rest in order are:

1. STUPID Zone Blocking Scheme
2. SLOW developing plays
3. Not focusing on cohesion.

This all falls on Cable and Bevell, I also put a big part of it on having an inept Running Backs coach. They FINALLY filled the spot from within by using Chad Morton, I would dump him and find someone worth their salt. Experiment failed. NEXT man up
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:49 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:Offensive line is the subject being discussed, of course that's what I was referring to.


I do know you are on topic. I responded to it the way I did to highlight the question that no one can answer, which is: How do you pay your offensive linemen and keep all your defensive stars, pay your franchise QB and give him sufficient talent at the skill positions and stay under the cap? It just seems everybody wants it all.

I am all on board acknowledging the lack of effective OL player development, but you can only do so much when you have to keep Sherman, Chancellor, Thomas, Wagner, Wright, Bennett, Avril, Wilson, Graham, Avril and Baldwin happy.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:12 am

Also, there is something to the fact that Wilson bails too early sometimes, and is moving all over the place. Until people are born with eyes in the backs of their heads this is going to be a problem for ANY o-lineman all pro or all turd.

Secondly with the Z blocking scheme, it's set up for a "one cut and go" RB of which we have ZERO and haven't had going on 3 years now. Our leading rushing RB last year was C-Mike with 400 and change. This year its Carson with 200 and change !!!

This system needs to go bye along with Cable.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Oly » Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:45 am

I'm no draftnik, but I've read this is a good year for the OL in the draft. The bare minimum move is to take the OL drafting out of Cable's hands. This is a year the Hawks can't afford to miss on a good prospect. But, like most of you, I think the real solution is to let Cable go and bring in a coach who can get the line back to man blocking. The line has seemed better in man than zone, and we need a coach willing to tailor the blocking schemes to the players' strengths.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:07 am

Everyone needs OL and those teams draft in front of Seattle BECAUSE of our success.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:20 am

I've heard (read) that outside of Nelson and Price, this year isn't that great for OL.
Perhaps the quality will be found in later rounds after those 2 players.

With regards to our specific problem, we have to see the whole picture before deciding on what changes might be required.
So here's my take - and some of it will be repetitive from previous posts.

Our situation:
1) We don't have a dominant RB. Carson might be pretty good, but I doubt he has what our OL requires for continuous success.
2) We have an OL that isn't consistently providing good run or pass blocking.
3) We run a hybrid ZBS/Drive blocking scheme that takes elements from both depending on the called play. Two different techniques are required and the physical skill set has to be able to be both powerful and athletic.
4) We want our starters to learn 2 positions along the OL.
5) In 7 years our OL has regressed instead of improve. It's obvious that Lynch made the OL look statistically better than it really was.

The draft prospects on the OL:
1) With the exception of the very best OL in the draft, none are ready to play at an NFL level. These are nothing like the days of Jones and Pace where you plugged them in and by mid season they were solid players and by year 2
they dominated.
2) The pool of potential starters is small as they often come from spread Offenses and many have never been in a 3 point stance.
3) The OL is less athletic than the DL as more players in College are looking to make a name for themselves by sacking the QB instead of protecting them.
4) 31 other teams are also looking for OL help.
5) With the pool of potential starters being small, the pool for those that can play both schemes is even smaller. I think that's why so many OL are washing out here.

Conclusions we can make:
1) We need a dominating RB and this draft has a number of potential RBs that can help.
2) Asking young players to learn 2 different techniques and 2 different positions will slow down their development. The sooner the thinking part is overcome, the faster the player will reach his potential.
3) Going with a single blocking scheme looks to be the best option.
4) Young Offensive Linemen are going to take a few years at one position to really learn it if we continue with the current demands of the 2 schemes. Maybe as much as most of their 1st contract if they
are to learn another position, too.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:42 am

"The OL is less athletic than the DL as more players in College are looking to make a name for themselves by sacking the QB instead of protecting them."

I have a way to fix that. Outlaw sack dances.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:57 am

c_hawkbob wrote:Offensive line is the subject being discussed, of course that's what I was referring to.

MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I do know you are on topic. I responded to it the way I did to highlight the question that no one can answer, which is: How do you pay your offensive linemen and keep all your defensive stars, pay your franchise QB and give him sufficient talent at the skill positions and stay under the cap? It just seems everybody wants it all.

I am all on board acknowledging the lack of effective OL player development, but you can only do so much when you have to keep Sherman, Chancellor, Thomas, Wagner, Wright, Bennett, Avril, Wilson, Graham, Avril and Baldwin happy.


While we should remain a defense first team I expect to see a more balanced spending model between the offensive and defensive side of the ball going forward. It's pretty evident that the best thing we got going now is Russ and that our best chance to win consistently is to surround him with better talent and go young, hungry and cheap on defense instead of offense. Or at least to make a shift in that direction. I don't expect to see all those high dollar defensive contracts next year.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby politicalfootball » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:20 am

Brown is playing with fire, so is Jokel and Britt. I like this OL.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Irish Greg 2.0 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:46 am

We really can't say the front office has not invested resources into this line, or that Cable has been given "nothing" to work with. Our current line, left to right: 1st round pick, 1st round pick (2nd pick overall), 2nd round pick, 2nd round pick, 1st round pick.

I doubt there are many O lines in the NFL that can compare.

However, looking closer...Joeckel was coming off an injury and was a bust in Jacksonville. He then missed 4 or 5 games this season after surgery. Brown has been playing on a bad ankle, and also trying to learn the weirdness of Russell and his escapism. Britt has started to regress a little (he is starting to whiff a lot). Pocic is skilled, but needs more strength - he gets pushed back too easily at times. Outside of the obvious mental aspect, I am still concerned with Ifedi's footwork and whether or not he is better suited at guard.

Joeckel will walk after this season, and we have Fant coming back. I think We will have Brown, Britt, Ifedi, and Fant as starters heading into 2018 - plus a pick or a free agent for the 5th spot.

As with anything, there are multiple aspects to why things are not working well - you guys hit on all of them in this thread. The offense is a tempestuous whirlwind. Sometimes it clicks, most times it is painful. This is two full seasons in a row of poor offensive play (remember in 2016 when we had game outputs of 12, 3, 6, 5, 10 and 13 points?).

The line is a problem. But, so is our QB. Yes, he is the primary reason we ever do anything on offense...but he still has issues. Our RB situation has been bad. Davis has been ok, but is only averaging 3.3 ypc. I saw a stat yesterday that said we have 20 carries to RBs inside the 10-yard line this season. Total yards gained? 0. We still have only one rushing TD by a RB (McKissic, nearly 3 months ago) and Chris Carson is still the leading runner even though he has missed the last seven games.

We have an extreme philosophy/player/game design mismatch right now. Pete wants to be a run dominant team, but we are the furthest thing from that.

Something has to change, line included.

And somehow, through it all, Russ is leading the NFL in total TDs (and has a chance to lead the NFL in TD passes), our enigma tight end has 10 TD catches, and we are going to win 10 games.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:41 pm

I don't see Fant playing anything but LT.
He's not a bruiser like a RT has to be in our system and for most of the league and he's never played Guard which will require another year at least of learning how to play that position not to mention the power required to play inside.
I just don't see it happening - or at least being successful if he is moved, but I do see him possibly being the future LT.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Zorn76 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:54 pm

Brown, Britt, & Pocic are still worth a look moving forward, but Infedi, Joeckel, and Fant need to go. Those 3 are a complete waste of time moving forward.

It just...is Incredible how we can't figure the OL.

Maybe our F.O. should consider this: How many good OL teams have former basketball players (Fant) DL converted to OL (at the NFL level, never having played the position before), plus one of the worst looking 1st rd picks (Infedi) since, well, pretty recently sadly enough given our history with that unit.

The ZBS clearly isn't a good fit for this group, yet the TC insists on keeping it.
It's stupid.

I'm not sure if we're gonna improve much offensively with the coaching we have in place, so instead I go best RB we can get (or two) next spring via draft or FA. Lots of holes to fill on this roster. Too bad our line and the same, predictable game plans will be in place next season.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Irish Greg 2.0 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:24 pm

NorthHawk wrote:I don't see Fant playing anything but LT.
He's not a bruiser like a RT has to be in our system and for most of the league and he's never played Guard which will require another year at least of learning how to play that position not to mention the power required to play inside.
I just don't see it happening - or at least being successful if he is moved, but I do see him possibly being the future LT.


Well, Duane Brown is our LT. So, Fant is NOT going to be a LT. He either goes to RT or to guard, and I don't see him as a guard.

The writing is kind of on the wall.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:49 pm

Irish Greg 2.0 wrote:The line is a problem. But, so is our QB. Yes, he is the primary reason we ever do anything on offense...but he still has issues.


That's a difficult thing for some people to admit to, but it's true. Russell has overthrown wide open receivers at a higher rate than he used to and has made uncharacteristic bad decisions that have resulted in turnovers or missed opportunities that he almost never made before. He is currently posting a career low completion percentage and is at or near career lows in QB efficiency ratings, and if he throws one more pick in our last game, he'll set a career high for interceptions (set last season). I don't believe that stats can or should define a quarterback's play, but it's pretty hard not to come to that conclusion when nearly every metric shows the same pattern. He's not the same Russell Wilson. He's digressed.

But before you start calling me a Russell basher, what I think we've seen happening to him is that we've given him a bad case of DCS (David Carr Syndrome). He hears footsteps. His first impulse is to look for which direction the rush is coming from instead of looking for the open receiver. And even when he does have a nice, clean pocket, his adrenaline is pumping so hard that it affects his throws, usually missing high or long.

Getting Russell some support in front of him, ie improving our offensive line play, is essential if we are to give him a chance to get his game back to where it once was and with it our chances of getting back to the Super Bowl. I just hope that his DCS isn't permanent.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:03 pm

Ifedi should have went with Earl to talk to Garrett...."come and get me"..... :lol:
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby obiken » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:00 pm

RiverDog wrote:Cable needs to go. No other discussion about the offensive line is necessary until that happens.



Thats it!
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:21 pm

Yes Cable is gone....Cutting the cord Jan 1st....... :lol:

Seriously.

Don't flame me just trying to be funny while telling the truth, about cable tv unfortunately.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby idhawkman » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:30 pm

Until RW can get a good LG-C-RG in front of him, he will continue to bail out the back of the pocket. He doesn't trust stepping up and through. This puts heavy pressure on the LT/RT to push people wider than they normally should have to push them. This also opens them up for an inside rush since they are expecting to push the DE around RW. It's a hard spot to put someone in - including former pro bowlers.

RW doesn't progress very well through his reads. He stares down his receivers now and when his first option isn't open (probably because he's staring them down), he bails out the back. Other times, RW is trying to steer the ball into the players arms. He has to just let the ball go and quit trying to steer it. This is even more evident on the long passes he attempts. Either they are too short and our wide open recievers get covered because of it or they get terrible injuries from it.

I'm not sure how to get his confidence back but it needs to happen if we ever want to be dominant again.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:02 pm

idhawkman wrote:Until RW can get a good LG-C-RG in front of him, he will continue to bail out the back of the pocket. He doesn't trust stepping up and through. This puts heavy pressure on the LT/RT to push people wider than they normally should have to push them. This also opens them up for an inside rush since they are expecting to push the DE around RW. It's a hard spot to put someone in - including former pro bowlers.

RW doesn't progress very well through his reads. He stares down his receivers now and when his first option isn't open (probably because he's staring them down), he bails out the back. Other times, RW is trying to steer the ball into the players arms. He has to just let the ball go and quit trying to steer it. This is even more evident on the long passes he attempts. Either they are too short and our wide open recievers get covered because of it or they get terrible injuries from it.

I'm not sure how to get his confidence back but it needs to happen if we ever want to be dominant again.


I'm not sure if agree with that. Russell has fallen in love with his reverse spin move. There are times when he should just step up or dip his shoulder and sprint out of there and instead does his piroette move and runs smack dab into an outside rush. I'm not sure if it's because of a lack of trust of his interior line protection or that he just loves trying that move so much.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby politicalfootball » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:53 am

Wilson says he has been a dream come true with the Seahawks this year they are going to. Beat the Cards then in the playoffs the Lambs
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby mykc14 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:16 am

politicalfootball wrote:Wilson says he has been a dream come true with the Seahawks this year they are going to be



What???
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:35 am

Well, Duane Brown is our LT. So, Fant is NOT going to be a LT. He either goes to RT or to guard, and I don't see him as a guard.

The writing is kind of on the wall.


As we all know Fant is coming off a serious knee injury. These things often take more than a year to fully heal and for him to trust it.
Sitting behind Brown for a year and watching a pro prepare and study during that time will help him a lot.
With Brown, he will be 33 next year and wants an extension now. I'm not sure we have the Cap room for what he's asking and if some of the people on this board are correct, he's not worth it.
I think his injury is slowing him down as he seems to get beat outside which might be because he can't push off fully with his right leg, but I don't know for sure.
Questions on the horizon like does he want to stay here after this year or does he want to test FA after next? As well, has his age caught up with him to the point that we
just give up the 2nd round pick? It wouldn't be the first time our FO has whiffed on evaluating OL talent.
What we do know is he's nearer the end of his career than the beginning and in the mid 30's when injuries strike, many players question whether they want to continue and injuries last longer.
I think they keep Fant around for at least another year as backup LT as he's too long and lean to be a Guard and not physical enough for RT.
But I've been wrong before.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Largent80 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:13 pm

The off season looms. A lot depends on what happens like if the Seahawks actually make the playoffs.

After that it's anyone's guess.
I'm going to say that Bevell will still be the OC.

Thank gawd I will never again pay for Seahawks games.
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Rambo2014 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:59 pm

Will be entertaining to watch Bruce strut in with his little Fedora and walk out with a winning season. Them ARZ is going to kick somebodies asssss
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby Sox-n-hawks » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:00 pm

Largent80 wrote:The off season looms. A lot depends on what happens like if the Seahawks actually make the playoffs.

After that it's anyone's guess.
I'm going to say that Bevell will still be the OC.

Thank gawd I will never again pay for Seahawks games.


Giving up?
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Re: Lets talk O-Line

Postby idhawkman » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:11 pm

Largent80 wrote:The off season looms. A lot depends on what happens like if the Seahawks actually make the playoffs.

After that it's anyone's guess.
I'm going to say that Bevell will still be the OC.

Thank gawd I will never again pay for Seahawks games.

Sox-n-hawks wrote:Giving up?

He's cutting his cable cord and going without sunday ticket...
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