RW: Great season... or was it...

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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:06 pm

chris98251 wrote:Regression is not a good year.


Regression really thanks for the laugh

He does something that no other Qb in the history of the NFl did, a good thing that gave us a chance and you say regression. LOL y9ou should stop drinking now
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:11 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Which is what several of us have been arguing. I can't see calling a QB that turns in a 9-7 record as having a "great season."


Hmm so if the defense only gave up 10 points a game but they went 9-7 you would say the defense did not have a good season? No you would say they had a great season but got no help from the offense. The same applies here Wilson had a good season but go no help from his oline, run game, or pretty much anything else.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby c_hawkbob » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:13 pm

The team certainly regressed, Russ did not.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:14 pm

chris98251 wrote:
That's perspective, if the previous season you were 4 and 12 and would be considered great, going backwards it is not.



the problem is we are not talking about the record we are talking about a player having a good season. Players can have good seasons and the team not do well, that doesn't to take anything away from the player or vice versa if a player does not have a good season but the team does.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:14 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:The team certainly regressed, Russ did not.



Exactly
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby chris98251 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:11 pm

Sorry but I did not think we were fans of the Seattle Russell Wilson's.

If that were the case then the Miami Dan Marinos and the New Orleans Archie Mannings were sorely overlooked in history as all world teams.
Last edited by chris98251 on Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:12 pm

Next to the head coach himself, there's no other person on the team that has his performance defined by his team's W/L record as the quarterback, and for good reason: The QB is the most influential position on the field. It's what made Joe Montana a HOF'er and arguably the GOAT. If not for his rings, Montana might not have gotten in to the HOF, certainly not on the first ballot. Same goes for Terry Bradshaw. It was the fact that they quarterbacked highly successful teams, rather than their statistics, that got them admitted. Had the Bills won 4 SB's in a row instead of losing 4, Jim Kelly would have been a first ballot HOF'er. Other positions benefit from team success, but not nearly as much as the quarterback.

There isn't a single poster in this forum that was around when Russell was a rookie that hasn't trumpeted his first 3 years as being the best in history and used his w/l record during that period of time to great advantage, arguing that Andrew Luck hasn't chalked up wins over Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers like Russell has, that his 3-1 record over Colin Kaepernick was proof that Russell was the better qb, and so on, and so on. It was a powerful argument that I happened to agree with.

But now that his/our won-loss record has regressed over his past 3 years from what it was in his first 3, we cannot in good conscious set it aside, say that he had nothing to do with that slide, and claim that he hasn't regressed. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

So at least as it relates to his W/L record, Russell has regressed.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby I-5 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:44 pm

Either he has regressed, or defenses have caught up to him, and he has failed to adjust (remember the amazing read option play that worked over and over his first year?). He still throws a pretty deep ball, but next year I want to see him dink and dunk his way downfield and get some easy first downs. I know, easier said than done.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:47 pm

chris98251 wrote:Sorry but I did not think we were fans of the Seattle Russell Wilson's.

If that were the case then the Miami Dan Marinos and the New Orleans Archie Mannings were sorely overlooked in history as all world teams.


Dude you can acknowledge a player having a good Season, or how great a player is and still be a fan of the team. I mean we're all fans of Largeant remind me what he ever won?
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:49 pm

RiverDog wrote:Next to the head coach himself, there's no other person on the team that has his performance defined by his team's W/L record as the quarterback, and for good reason: The QB is the most influential position on the field. It's what made Joe Montana a HOF'er and arguably the GOAT. If not for his rings, Montana might not have gotten in to the HOF, certainly not on the first ballot. Same goes for Terry Bradshaw. It was the fact that they quarterbacked highly successful teams, rather than their statistics, that got them admitted. Had the Bills won 4 SB's in a row instead of losing 4, Jim Kelly would have been a first ballot HOF'er. Other positions benefit from team success, but not nearly as much as the quarterback.

There isn't a single poster in this forum that was around when Russell was a rookie that hasn't trumpeted his first 3 years as being the best in history and used his w/l record during that period of time to great advantage, arguing that Andrew Luck hasn't chalked up wins over Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Aaron Rodgers like Russell has, that his 3-1 record over Colin Kaepernick was proof that Russell was the better qb, and so on, and so on. It was a powerful argument that I happened to agree with.

But now that his/our won-loss record has regressed over his past 3 years from what it was in his first 3, we cannot in good conscious set it aside, say that he had nothing to do with that slide, and claim that he hasn't regressed. You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

So at least as it relates to his W/L record, Russell has regressed.


coming from the guy who gave all the credit for the SB and wins to the defense and lynch that is laughable. Under your rules any Qb that whos team has a worse record than the year before regressing. SO I guess every QB in history has regressed at some time in their career.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:51 pm

I-5 wrote:Either he has regressed, or defenses have caught up to him, and he has failed to adjust (remember the amazing read option play that worked over and over his first year?). He still throws a pretty deep ball, but next year I want to see him dink and dunk his way downfield and get some easy first downs. I know, easier said than done.



Hmm leading the league in tds, total tds, setting NFL records for the most % of yards and tds by a Qb that's your idea of regression. This while behind one of the worse oline in history with no run game and the 5th most dropped passes. Really I feel sorry for the lot of you.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby chris98251 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:41 pm

Dude you can acknowledge a player having a good Season, or how great a player is and still be a fan of the team. I mean we're all fans of Largeant remind me what he ever won?


It's Largent !

Everyone here acknowledges Wilson played handicapped all year, most QB's have that issue, some more then others, but as the face of the team he was forced to do more then he should have been and the offense was unbalanced and became one dimensional, now all that isn't on Wilson either but his performance was based many others not performing which regressed the team, wins is what the team needs to make the play offs and a Super Bowl, how many MVP's did Peyton Manning have? How many Super Bowl wins? With all those MVP's and his stats he won 2 Super Bowls and was most influential in his Indy one, the defense won his Denver Super Bowl for him.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:05 pm

chris98251 wrote:
Everyone here acknowledges Wilson played handicapped all year, most QB's have that issue, some more then others, but as the face of the team he was forced to do more then he should have been and the offense was unbalanced and became one dimensional, now all that isn't on Wilson either but his performance was based many others not performing which regressed the team, wins is what the team needs to make the play offs and a Super Bowl, how many MVP's did Peyton Manning have? How many Super Bowl wins? With all those MVP's and his stats he won 2 Super Bowls and was most influential in his Indy one, the defense won his Denver Super Bowl for him.


so I go back to my point while the team did not win as much Wilson had a good year and guess what its okay to say both.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby HumanCockroach » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:04 pm

Y'all saw what Green Bay was without Rodgers, multiple times over the last several seasons, and what they were with him... perennial playoff caliber team, SB contenders, Green Bays line isn't great, and hasn't been, their running game has been anemic, and their defense consist of a couple great players, and pretty average to bad.

That my friends is GREAT QB play, not what Wilson did this year. Great QBs ELEVATE the players around them, not need great players to succeed. I'm not professing Wilson is incapable of that, only that greats find a way, no matter who is around them. This year Wilson didn't find that way. It doesn't prohibit him from becoming that QB, Nor does it mean he wasn't that way in the past. It simply means, this season he wasn't great.

I argued Lucks greatness as well, I'm not making excuses for Wilson. He played exceptionally poorly in the first half of games, no matter the opponent on the other side of the ball, 15 out of 16 games this season, just the truth of it. No amount of hero worship washes that.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:29 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Y'all saw what Green Bay was without Rodgers, multiple times over the last several seasons, and what they were with him... perennial playoff caliber team, SB contenders, Green Bays line isn't great, and hasn't been, their running game has been anemic, and their defense consist of a couple great players, and pretty average to bad.

That my friends is GREAT QB play, not what Wilson did this year. Great QBs ELEVATE the players around them, not need great players to succeed. I'm not professing Wilson is incapable of that, only that greats find a way, no matter who is around them. This year Wilson didn't find that way. It doesn't prohibit him from becoming that QB, Nor does it mean he wasn't that way in the past. It simply means, this season he wasn't great.

I argued Lucks greatness as well, I'm not making excuses for Wilson. He played exceptionally poorly in the first half of games, no matter the opponent on the other side of the ball, 15 out of 16 games this season, just the truth of it. No amount of hero worship washes that.



LOL wowo you know your facts are way off Durig his career Rodgers has had an oline on avg ranked 16th in pass blocking, while Wilson 26th. This year Wilson was our offense period, he out the whole offense on his back, yes he was not great in the first half, and some of that was him, but a lot of that was not, and in the end once again he had us on the doorstep of the playoffs. FYI Rodgers has not been in the playoffs every year he has been in the league either and his teams offense is built around him. And fyi last year his Run game was better than ours, in 2015 it was ranked 12th still pretty good, in 2014 ranked 11th, 2013 ranked 7th so this he has no run game is well wrong. The difference is his team is built around him and our is still not built around WIlson.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby HumanCockroach » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:31 pm

Don't read excuses.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:34 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Don't read excuses.


dont post BS
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:05 am

chris98251 wrote:Sorry but I did not think we were fans of the Seattle Russell Wilson's.

If that were the case then the Miami Dan Marinos and the New Orleans Archie Mannings were sorely overlooked in history as all world teams.


Damn, you mean I been doing it wrong all these years being a fan of my team's players? I suppose I should have been rooting for the laundry after all ... I guess that means I was a fan of the Seattle Cortez Kennedys and the Seattle Kenny Easleys and the Seattle Steve Largents and even the Seattle Isaiah Kacyvenskis (hey, I don't have the same criteria for favorite players as everyone else does, so sue me) as well huh?

And all this time I thought I was just a Seahawks fan ...
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 am

Anthony wrote:coming from the guy who gave all the credit for the SB and wins to the defense and lynch that is laughable. Under your rules any Qb that whos team has a worse record than the year before regressing. SO I guess every QB in history has regressed at some time in their career.


What you have said about my comments is a bold faced lie. Heck, I even gave some very reluctant credit to Percy Harvin, one of my most reviled Seahawk ever. As a matter of fact, it was my opinion that if they couldn't have given the MVP award to the entire defense or at least a pair of players like they did in one SB that Russell was the single most influential player and should have gotten the award.

I've always lauded Russell for his play, especially in those first 3 seasons. I've consistently said that he's a top 5 QB and the perfect QB for our team, still say that even today as we contemplate our 9-7 non playoff season. Even with his regression, there's only a few QB's that I'd consistently rank ahead of him (Brady, Rodgers, and Worthlessburger).
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:26 am

It’s like politics . The truth is somewhere in the middle. Russ set records for % of team offense, led the team in rushing, put up statistically the best .passing year ever by any QB in the franchise history not named Wilson.

But they missed the playoffs and Russ struggled down the stretch along with the kicker and everyone else including the dreadful 2 minute defense.it seemed like he started pressing , throwing up 50/50 s and seeing the rush instead of the field.

Vs az I saw confusion and even some panic in the first half but again when every RB with a pulse is injured ,guys are dropping absolute dimes wide open and you’re getting tackled before you can hand off a running play I’m not judging.

It’s hard to quantify a mans performance when he has a dreadful line,inconsistent recievers minus Baldwin ,no run game and a bipolar offensive coordinator.
He’s not the problem. Get a new OC, fix the line and commit to the run game and Russ will be just fine.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:36 am

Hawktawk wrote:It’s like politics . The truth is somewhere in the middle. Russ set records for % of team offense, led the team in rushing, put up statistically the best .passing year ever by any QB in the franchise history not named Wilson.

But they missed the playoffs and Russ struggled down the stretch along with the kicker and everyone else including the dreadful 2 minute defense.it seemed like he started pressing , throwing up 50/50 s and seeing the rush instead of the field.

Vs az I saw confusion and even some panic in the first half but again when every RB with a pulse is injured ,guys are dropping absolute dimes wide open and you’re getting tackled before you can hand off a running play I’m not judging.

It’s hard to quantify a mans performance when he has a dreadful line,inconsistent recievers minus Baldwin ,no run game and a bipolar offensive coordinator.
He’s not the problem. Get a new OC, fix the line and commit to the run game and Russ will be just fine.


I can handle that, Hawktalk. And certainly I've never claimed that Russell is THE problem, just one of the many aspects of our team that needs to improve if we are to get back to what we once were.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Hawk Sista » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:08 am

Hawktawk wrote:It’s like politics . The truth is somewhere in the middle. Russ set records for % of team offense, led the team in rushing, put up statistically the best .passing year ever by any QB in the franchise history not named Wilson.

But they missed the playoffs and Russ struggled down the stretch along with the kicker and everyone else including the dreadful 2 minute defense.it seemed like he started pressing , throwing up 50/50 s and seeing the rush instead of the field.

Vs az I saw confusion and even some panic in the first half but again when every RB with a pulse is injured ,guys are dropping absolute dimes wide open and you’re getting tackled before you can hand off a running play I’m not judging.

It’s hard to quantify a mans performance when he has a dreadful line,inconsistent recievers minus Baldwin ,no run game and a bipolar offensive coordinator.
He’s not the problem. Get a new OC, fix the line and commit to the run game and Russ will be just fine.


+1. Excellent post.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Hawk Sista » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:22 am

Damn, you mean I been doing it wrong all these years being a fan of my team's players? I suppose I should have been rooting for the laundry after all ... I guess that means I was a fan of the Seattle Cortez Kennedys and the Seattle Kenny Easleys and the Seattle Steve Largents and even the Seattle Isaiah Kacyvenskis (hey, I don't have the same criteria for favorite players as everyone else does, so sue me) as well huh?

And all this time I thought I was just a Seahawks fan .


Man, what a blast from the past. We could have used some Isaiah Kacyvenskis this year. I appreciate this post, Bob. Even though Tez was not the QB, he was the defensive MVP on a team that went 2-14. So yes, a player can have a great year and miss the playoffs...& we were huge Tez fans & Hawk fans.

There is no one single objective reality... not one that we all see the same way, so the answer to the question in the OP is just different for each person. For me, I wouldn’t trade him for the world and I think he played his ass off for the team. The question did he have a “great” season is a tough one given the setting. I would say he had a very good season given the circumstances and a great MVP-like season before the final three games. Like HawkTalk, I can hardly judge RW for hearing footsteps and seeing ghosts & I thank him for his high effort season.

I see where someone dinged him for not reaching 4K yards in passing this year. OMG. Just who else in franchise history has? Uhhh, that would be Wilson of 15 and Wilson of 16. How about TD’s in a season? Or even the ints that were brought up. Seriously? 11 ints. Check where that # ranks historically in the Hawks record books and compare a 16 game starting apple to an apple when ranking him for the year. When trying to prove RW was not great this year, one doesn’t need to go out of their way to find figures & stats to prove their point. We all saw the season. We all have our own perceptions about what took place and why.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:46 am

Hawk Sista wrote:I see where someone dinged him for not reaching 4K yards in passing this year. OMG. Just who else in franchise history has? Uhhh, that would be Wilson of 15 and Wilson of 16. How about TD’s in a season? Or even the ints that were brought up. Seriously? 11 ints. Check where that # ranks historically in the Hawks record books and compare a 16 game starting apple to an apple when ranking him for the year. When trying to prove RW was not great this year, one doesn’t need to go out of their way to find figures & stats to prove their point. We all saw the season. We all have our own perceptions about what took place and why.


Dinged him? Your words, sis, and they couldn't be any less descriptive of the intent. Take another look at the thread title: We're debating whether or not Russell had a "great" season, not if he had a bad season.

What I was doing was comparing Russell's stats from 2017 with those from his previous years. I was responding to a comment from another poster that had made the statement that "his stats looked pretty good."

I replied that some of his stats looked good while others didn't. He had a career low in completion percentage and tied his career high of interceptions and unlike the previous two seasons, he didn't break 4K passing. It was a purely objective look at his statistical performance compared to previous years, nothing more.

For the life of me, I wish people would quit putting words into my mouth. That's almost as bad as Anthony accusing me of never giving praise or credit to Russell. Jeesh.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Aseahawkfan » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:50 pm

It's not somewhere in the middle. Russ had a great season. He's not the problem on this team. Making him seem like the problem is fricking ridiculous. This is not about defending an untouchable, loved player. It's about fixing real team problems and the QBs lack of perfection is not one of those problems we need fixed. All Russ needs to do is maintain production, we fix all other parts and we're back in the playoffs and Super Bowl contenders.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Hawk Sista » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:41 am

Honestly, RD - I didn’t remember it was you who said it. I was typing out a response on my phone and didn’t bother to scroll back to check. In this thread , there has been discussion about RWs regression and you cited stats about ints and not getting to 4 k to illustrate he hasn’t been as good as previous years and was ranked in the middle of the pack in those areas. Your comments felt in line w/ the Russell regressed theory, which when I read them again - still rings accurate to me.

You are a favorite poster of mine and I apologize you feel the way you do. Name calling and comparing me to unreasonable posters seems harsh, IMO.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:24 am

Hawk Sista wrote:Honestly, RD - I didn’t remember it was you who said it. I was typing out a response on my phone and didn’t bother to scroll back to check. In this thread , there has been discussion about RWs regression and you cited stats about ints and not getting to 4 k to illustrate he hasn’t been as good as previous years and was ranked in the middle of the pack in those areas. Your comments felt in line w/ the Russell regressed theory, which when I read them again - still rings accurate to me.

You are a favorite poster of mine and I apologize you feel the way you do. Name calling and comparing me to unreasonable posters seems harsh, IMO.



Here is the problem with saying he regressed, to say that you have to believe that being the most hit, hurried, and sacked Qb had no effect on him at all, that having a group of Wr/TE/Rds who were 5th in dropped passes had no effect on him, and having no run game had no effect on him, and that the horrible playcalling and design had no effect on him. NO one in their right might would look at all that and say it did not have a big impact. THen you would also have to ignore that he led the league in TDs, led the league in total TDs, was #2 in total yards, is the FIrst QB in NFL history to account for over 80% of the offensive yards, is the first QB in NFL history to account for over 95% of total offensive TDs. Again no one who understands football would say he regressed, they would say he succeeded despite a large amount of issues.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:05 pm

The reasons don't matter when just discussing the numbers.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby chris98251 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:52 pm

I will state this again in a different way, if your driving around the world and you drive 80 percent of the time because one co pilot is 5 years old and the other was dropped off somewhere due to medical reasons, the fourth was drinking 80 percent of the time and only drove 20 percent of the way. Is it still an accomplishment that you drove more hours then anyone in history in that one trip? Yes maybe, but it should not have had to be that way.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:15 pm

chris98251 wrote:I will state this again in a different way, if your driving around the world and you drive 80 percent of the time because one co pilot is 5 years old and the other was dropped off somewhere due to medical reasons, the fourth was drinking 80 percent of the time and only drove 20 percent of the way. Is it still an accomplishment that you drove more hours then anyone in history in that one trip? Yes maybe, but it should not have had to be that way.


The stats are just that - numbers. They don't show the whole picture and it's why I generally don't trust stats as a measuring stick.
But they can tell a few things like a trend or sudden dropoff in productivity in some cases. Conclusions for changes like that are often mitigated by the uncontrollable variables that the raw stats just can't show.
In Wilson's case, the run game and OL problems really hit his numbers, and the numbers showed a decline.
So with stats, you can say he had a bad year and not be wrong, but when looking beyond the numbers you can also say he had a good year considering he didn't have much help. You might even be able to say he had a great year because he was the only player on Offense that consistently produced for most of the year and that with groups within his Offense not producing he overcame that to a large degree.
It's how you decide to view it.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby idhawkman » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:15 pm

Whether it was Russ, Bevell's scripted plays or something else, the bottom line is that this team as a whole dug themselves into holes that they oft times could not climb out of. Some part of that has to be laid at the leaders of the team's feet. So maybe RW as a player did things no one else has done but then you have to look at his leadership abilities and question them. But lets not put the whole blame there, the coaches including Pete Carroll also have to be looked at in that same department.

If it was one game or two, you could make some assumptions, but like so many people have pointed out, it was virtually every game. This team had a serious leadership problem all year long and the frustrations coming out of the players like DB and ET are showing it.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:21 pm

Hawk Sista wrote:Honestly, RD - I didn’t remember it was you who said it. I was typing out a response on my phone and didn’t bother to scroll back to check. In this thread , there has been discussion about RWs regression and you cited stats about ints and not getting to 4 k to illustrate he hasn’t been as good as previous years and was ranked in the middle of the pack in those areas. Your comments felt in line w/ the Russell regressed theory, which when I read them again - still rings accurate to me.

You are a favorite poster of mine and I apologize you feel the way you do. Name calling and comparing me to unreasonable posters seems harsh, IMO.


Sorry, sis. I was a little upset at the time.

But please understand me. I'm big on W/L records for quarterbacks. I feel that Joe Montana trumps Dan Marino and Tom Brady trumps Peyton Manning because of it. The fact that Phillip Rivers, Mathew Stafford, and Tony Romo, quarterbacks that have some pretty good stats, heavily influences my opinion of them and would elevate Eli Manning over all three of those aformentioned signal callers. John Elway and Steve Young didn't aquire HOF status until they at least had a ring. Just think of the status Jim Kelly would have had if he could revise the outcome of just 4 measly games. Whether it's fair or not, I hold the quarterback responsible for the success or failure of the team than I do any other person outside of the head coach.

That doesn't mean that I'm blaming everything on Russell or discounting his contributions. He's a great quarterback and no matter how bad our offense is playing, we're never out of it with him at the helm. But he is human, and I'll call out his failings when they occur.

So please, keep that in mind.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Hawk Sista » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:15 pm

And I think I’ve expressed some similar ideas, RD. Which is what hurt when you took my response and turned me into a white hot apologist/excuse-maker for all things RW.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Zorn76 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:55 am

IMO, the lack of any kind of decent game plan has also contributed to RW's desperate plays, questionable judgement that we don't typically see. He did have a great year under the circumstances. But he's being let down by coaches who have no business being on our sidle line.

It's gotten to the point where the Seahawks are not really going to improve - no matter who we draft or what FA we bring in - until the staff on that side of the ball changes. I hope Richard gets the HC gig he wants in Indy, too. I like him ok, but it's the Perfect time to start this process.

For those who still need further proof....again, look at what's going on with the Rams. One year. That's how long it took for that putrid offense to go from worst to first. We also see what a QB can do for a crap offense in SF, along with a guy who has a pretty decent offensive mind, Shannehan.

With our existing group, we have Zero shot of any kind of upswing like this. The team needs to explore other options if they want to keep their head above water. The time is Now, because our division rivals are doing it as well. Quit resting on laurels that are starting to stretch back several seasons now and get this s*** done.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:45 am

Hawk Sista wrote:And I think I’ve expressed some similar ideas, RD. Which is what hurt when you took my response and turned me into a white hot apologist/excuse-maker for all things RW.


And I'm sincerely sorry for that. You're the last person in the forum that I would intentionally say something to hurt them. Not that I'm making my own excuse, but your response came right on the heals of Anthony virtually accusing me of hating Russell so you got painted with the same brush stroke, something I've always tried to avoid.

Anyhow, onward and upward!
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby NorthHawk » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 am

Zorn76 wrote:IMO, the lack of any kind of decent game plan has also contributed to RW's desperate plays, questionable judgement that we don't typically see. He did have a great year under the circumstances. But he's being let down by coaches who have no business being on our sidle line.

It's gotten to the point where the Seahawks are not really going to improve - no matter who we draft or what FA we bring in - until the staff on that side of the ball changes. I hope Richard gets the HC gig he wants in Indy, too. I like him ok, but it's the Perfect time to start this process.

For those who still need further proof....again, look at what's going on with the Rams. One year. That's how long it took for that putrid offense to go from worst to first. We also see what a QB can do for a crap offense in SF, along with a guy who has a pretty decent offensive mind, Shannehan.

With our existing group, we have Zero shot of any kind of upswing like this. The team needs to explore other options if they want to keep their head above water. The time is Now, because our division rivals are doing it as well. Quit resting on laurels that are starting to stretch back several seasons now and get this s*** done.


The difference is the Rams actually had some talent on Offense and they brought in 2 veterans to steady the ship on the OL. They also had some real good draft picks that would never be available to successful teams like us.
But you are right in one way, they have coaches in place that know how to use them properly.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby RiverDog » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:23 pm

NorthHawk wrote:The difference is the Rams actually had some talent on Offense and they brought in 2 veterans to steady the ship on the OL. They also had some real good draft picks that would never be available to successful teams like us.
But you are right in one way, they have coaches in place that know how to use them properly.


And they had Todd Gurley to run behind an improved offensive line. There's not too many of those guys out there.

What's happened to the Rams is the same thing that happened to the Niners a couple of years ago when they were doormats for half a decade then suddenly exploded onto the scene when they brought in a new coach.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:43 pm

RiverDog wrote:Sorry, sis. I was a little upset at the time.

But please understand me. I'm big on W/L records for quarterbacks. I feel that Joe Montana trumps Dan Marino and Tom Brady trumps Peyton Manning because of it. The fact that Phillip Rivers, Mathew Stafford, and Tony Romo, quarterbacks that have some pretty good stats, heavily influences my opinion of them and would elevate Eli Manning over all three of those aformentioned signal callers. John Elway and Steve Young didn't aquire HOF status until they at least had a ring. Just think of the status Jim Kelly would have had if he could revise the outcome of just 4 measly games. Whether it's fair or not, I hold the quarterback responsible for the success or failure of the team than I do any other person outside of the head coach.

That doesn't mean that I'm blaming everything on Russell or discounting his contributions. He's a great quarterback and no matter how bad our offense is playing, we're never out of it with him at the helm. But he is human, and I'll call out his failings when they occur.

So please, keep that in mind.


Small aside, Brady trumps Manning because Brady is the greatest QB of all time in nearly every category, single, multiple seasons, or just about any way you can rate a QB other than rushing. The Brady-Manning argument ended a while ago vastly in Brady's favor. Montana is one of my favorite QBs of all time, but there was an argument about Marino being the better QB because of regular season stats. That argument doesn't exist with Brady. He's the best ever, bar none. No argument to be made. He's the GOAT and we likely won't see better in our lifetime. We got to watch Michael Jordan play basketball along with other greats over the years and we got to see Tom Brady play football.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:49 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Y'all saw what Green Bay was without Rodgers, multiple times over the last several seasons, and what they were with him... perennial playoff caliber team, SB contenders, Green Bays line isn't great, and hasn't been, their running game has been anemic, and their defense consist of a couple great players, and pretty average to bad.

That my friends is GREAT QB play, not what Wilson did this year. Great QBs ELEVATE the players around them, not need great players to succeed. I'm not professing Wilson is incapable of that, only that greats find a way, no matter who is around them. This year Wilson didn't find that way. It doesn't prohibit him from becoming that QB, Nor does it mean he wasn't that way in the past. It simply means, this season he wasn't great.

I argued Lucks greatness as well, I'm not making excuses for Wilson. He played exceptionally poorly in the first half of games, no matter the opponent on the other side of the ball, 15 out of 16 games this season, just the truth of it. No amount of hero worship washes that.


Idiotic criteria. We missed the playoffs by one game and Russell can't kick or we're in. Bad coaching or bad play from other players can also cost you the game. Stop pretending an off year for the team is somehow an indictment of QB play. He had a great season that would have normally led us to the playoffs, but other elements of the team failed in clutch time whether it was our defense giving up scores or the kicker missing. I guess in your mind the QB should somehow fix that even when he's not on the field to do so.

Stupid criteria.
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Re: RW: Great season... or was it...

Postby Anthony » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:59 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Y'all saw what Green Bay was without Rodgers, multiple times over the last several seasons, and what they were with him... perennial playoff caliber team, SB contenders, Green Bays line isn't great, and hasn't been, their running game has been anemic, and their defense consist of a couple great players, and pretty average to bad.

That my friends is GREAT QB play, not what Wilson did this year. Great QBs ELEVATE the players around them, not need great players to succeed. I'm not professing Wilson is incapable of that, only that greats find a way, no matter who is around them. This year Wilson didn't find that way. It doesn't prohibit him from becoming that QB, Nor does it mean he wasn't that way in the past. It simply means, this season he wasn't great.

I argued Lucks greatness as well, I'm not making excuses for Wilson. He played exceptionally poorly in the first half of games, no matter the opponent on the other side of the ball, 15 out of 16 games this season, just the truth of it. No amount of hero worship washes that.


Okay now facts, Rodgers oline has always been ranked way higher in pass blocking than ours. Rodgers is in a system built for him. So nice try but complete bs
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