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Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:04 pm
by RiverDog
Aseahawkfan wrote:I haven't watched cheerleaders on TV in years. Do the NFL cameramen really get close up shots of the cheerleaders undies and shoot under their skirts? From what I recall, they are usually doing group dancing on the sideline or during the half-time show. I don't recall the cameramen obtaining upskirt shots or the like. They are usually shown as a group rather than focusing on an individual.


I haven't seen what Oly was talking about regarding the upskirt shots. But on SNF and MNF, it's not uncommon for the cameraman, when they are coming from or going two a commercial break, to zoom in on one individual cheerleader's bust, usually the one with the biggest cup size.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:19 pm
by burrrton
In my opinion, some of the outfits/behavior push the edge of the envelope and can very easily be seen by a more conservative individual as doing just that.


If you're offended by them, avoid (off the top of my head) television, Broadway, Las Vegas, beaches, and most sporting events because they're little different than what half the country walks around in now.

In other words, I think the broad consensus would be that it's a 'you' problem. There's a lot more to be explained walking around at Boat Races (if you're inclined to explain such trvialities) than watching an NFL game.

IMO part of the reason why you don't see college cheerleaders dressed like NFL cheerleaders is that most of the FBS schools are state institutions responsible to the tax paying, tuition paying parents of the students and many of the rest of the private schools, like Notre Dame and BYU, are accountable to a church.


Sure, but I think it's more (as I said) that they're *cheer* squads, while groups like the Seagals are "cheerleaders" in name only- they're dance troupes that use pom poms as props and do some community outreach.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:22 pm
by Largent80
Is this more your style River Dog?

Image

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:09 am
by c_hawkbob
Now that's obscene.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:26 am
by Largent80
:lol:

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:32 am
by Oly
RiverDog wrote:I guess I'm the only one in this thread that understands where you're coming from.

Football, and sports in general, is programming that all ages are going to watch, more so than almost all other adult orientated telecasts. It therefore needs to be designed for the lowest age that is likely to be watching.


Yep, you nailed it.

Just a side note: in today's divisive political climate, especially around the "culture wars," I honestly find some hope in the fact that you and I can find some common ground. The overlap in the Venn diagram of liberal and conservative values isn't very big, but this seems to be part of it.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:23 am
by Rambo2014
Snicker all you want up there in Alaska

We are loaded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

19-0

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:32 am
by Largent80
Rambo2014 wrote:We are loaded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

0-19


Yes you ARE.

Image

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:36 am
by RiverDog
Oly wrote:Just a side note: in today's divisive political climate, especially around the "culture wars," I honestly find some hope in the fact that you and I can find some common ground. The overlap in the Venn diagram of liberal and conservative values isn't very big, but this seems to be part of it.


I consider myself a fiscal conservative and a social moderate, but I try to look at each issue independently rather than being conformed within the typical stereotypes of what conservatives believe in, so hopefully the overlapping portion of my circle is a little greater than most.

One of the things I've had to teach myself is that just because something doesn't offend me personally doesn't mean that someone else that is offended is wrong for feeling that way. It works the other way, too. Just because I'm not offended by something that you are doesn't mean I'm morally bankrupt.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:01 am
by HumanCockroach
I'm a little surprised this was discussed so incredibly thoroughly. To be honest I'm a little confused by some of the things being discussed, as someone that watches football on the NFL level in large quantities, and college football specifically, I'm not sure where the "shot up the girls skirt" at the NFL level even occurred, I do know however, that that shot has been a shot that occurs in each and every college football game numerous times. Every time they are lifted, every time they are tossed.... the NFL is basically a dance troop, not much more. Occasionally * very* they'll wear revealing clothing, but 99% of the time, it's the type of clothing you see in an aerobics class, nothing more.

So my confusion is where and when you are seeing a shot up a cheerleaders skirt in the NFL ( vast majority don't even wear them any more) and whether or not you guys are stuck in the 80s ( when that was prevalent) and just haven't watched for the last couple decades...??

If that is something that offends, I can understand, BUT you guys seem to have confused COLLEGE game day with NFL accolades/ dance troops...

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:24 pm
by RiverDog
HumanCockroach wrote:I'm a little surprised this was discussed so incredibly thoroughly.


It's the offseason, the draft is weeks away, and training camp months away....so what do you expect?

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:55 pm
by Oly
HumanCockroach wrote:I'm a little surprised this was discussed so incredibly thoroughly. To be honest I'm a little confused by some of the things being discussed, as someone that watches football on the NFL level in large quantities, and college football specifically, I'm not sure where the "shot up the girls skirt" at the NFL level even occurred, I do know however, that that shot has been a shot that occurs in each and every college football game numerous times. Every time they are lifted, every time they are tossed.... the NFL is basically a dance troop, not much more. Occasionally * very* they'll wear revealing clothing, but 99% of the time, it's the type of clothing you see in an aerobics class, nothing more.

So my confusion is where and when you are seeing a shot up a cheerleaders skirt in the NFL ( vast majority don't even wear them any more) and whether or not you guys are stuck in the 80s ( when that was prevalent) and just haven't watched for the last couple decades...??

If that is something that offends, I can understand, BUT you guys seem to have confused COLLEGE game day with NFL accolades/ dance troops...


Perhaps I have generalized what I see in college games to the NFL, but the shot I'm talking about is when coming back from a commercial and the camera pans across a line of cheerleaders from a very low angle.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:25 am
by HumanCockroach
Can honestly say in the hundreds of NFL football games I've watched over the last decade, I've seen that shot maybe twice. Three times perhaps....

That said, college? Every single game maybe a half dozen times or more...

Just feel like you're placing that at the NFL level, when really, it's a rarity, so few even wear skirts at this point, that I'm not entirely sure how you're seeing it. Pretty much, it's shorts, yoga pants, plus haltars... ie yoga workout gear.

Just confused me is all.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:27 am
by RiverDog
It's becoming more and more difficult for some of you folks to continue to defend the NFL's employment of cheerleaders when events like this are reported to have occurred:

When the Washington Redskins took their cheerleading squad to Costa Rica in 2013 for a calendar photo shoot, the first cause for concern among the cheerleaders came when Redskins officials collected their passports upon arrival at the resort, depriving them of their official identification.

...some of the cheerleaders said they were required to be topless, though the photographs used for the calendar would not show nudity. Others wore nothing but body paint. Given the resort’s secluded setting, such revealing poses would not have been a concern for the women — except that the Redskins had invited spectators. A contingent of sponsors and FedExField suite holders — all men — were granted up-close access to the photo shoots.

...the squad’s director told nine of the 36 cheerleaders that their work was not done. They had a special assignment for the night. Some of the male sponsors had picked them to be personal escorts at a nightclub.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ho ... =1&ffid=gz

There's a lot more disgusting stuff in that article. If just half of it is true, they ought to prosecute Dan Snyder.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:16 am
by NorthHawk
Someone needs to be held accountable because on the surface it's terrible and maybe a crime, but that has nothing to do with the allegations of overly skimpy costumes during games that the debate was about earlier.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:40 am
by mykc14
NorthHawk wrote:Someone needs to be held accountable because on the surface it's terrible and maybe a crime, but that has nothing to do with the allegations of overly skimpy costumes during games that the debate was about earlier.



I agree that is disgusting and somebody needs to be fired. The team should be fined and harshly punished.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:42 am
by mykc14
NorthHawk wrote:Someone needs to be held accountable because on the surface it's terrible and maybe a crime, but that has nothing to do with the allegations of overly skimpy costumes during games that the debate was about earlier.


Nothing to do? I disagree. This is why cheerleaders are part of the game to an extreme example. They are here because of the sex appeal. I don't want to get rid of them, per say, because they give women an opportunity to take something they love and pursue it at the professional level, but I would want them to have many more rights, high pay, and a clear say in what they wear.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:51 am
by NorthHawk
I would suggest to you that under the right circumstances a dance troupe could fall victim to the same thing. It's not Cheerleader exclusive. Those types of people prey on the vulnerable and naive.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:28 am
by mykc14
NorthHawk wrote:I would suggest to you that under the right circumstances a dance troupe could fall victim to the same thing. It's not Cheerleader exclusive. Those types of people prey on the vulnerable and naive.


Just because it could happen to somebody else doesn't mean that it doesn't have anything 'to do with the allegations of overly skimpy costumes during games that the debate was about earlier.'

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:41 am
by c_hawkbob
RiverDog wrote:It's becoming more and more difficult for some of you folks to continue to defend the NFL's employment of cheerleaders when events like this are reported to have occurred:

When the Washington Redskins took their cheerleading squad to Costa Rica in 2013 for a calendar photo shoot, the first cause for concern among the cheerleaders came when Redskins officials collected their passports upon arrival at the resort, depriving them of their official identification.

...some of the cheerleaders said they were required to be topless, though the photographs used for the calendar would not show nudity. Others wore nothing but body paint. Given the resort’s secluded setting, such revealing poses would not have been a concern for the women — except that the Redskins had invited spectators. A contingent of sponsors and FedExField suite holders — all men — were granted up-close access to the photo shoots.

...the squad’s director told nine of the 36 cheerleaders that their work was not done. They had a special assignment for the night. Some of the male sponsors had picked them to be personal escorts at a nightclub.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/ho ... =1&ffid=gz

There's a lot more disgusting stuff in that article. If just half of it is true, they ought to prosecute Dan Snyder.


First of all that's way out of line and there needs to be great amount of accountability there; not just one person losing their job but it sounds to me like their should be a few. And the redskins organization should be very heavily fined (well into seven figures) by the NFL as a deterrent to other clubs doing anything similar and I agree about criminal charges against whoever made those decisions and carried them out as well as Snider himself for fostering an organizational mindset that could even consider such actions as acceptable.

But this is not an example of the NFL behaving badly (the incident itself anyway) this is an example of the Washington Redskins behaving badly. I doubt this is the norm among all squads.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:49 am
by NorthHawk
Just because it could happen to somebody else doesn't mean that it doesn't have anything 'to do with the allegations of overly skimpy costumes during games that the debate was about earlier.'


But that's the point, they're costumes are not overly skimpy.
I've seen skimpier garb while walking down the street. Not as a group, but as individuals, and this article didn't imply it was their dress that caused this happening to occur, but rather you could infer that it was because they are very attractive women. It probably would have happened no matter what they wear on the sidelines. They were put in a very vulnerable situation that could happen to any group of attractive women, and not just Cheerleaders.
And someone should be held accountable.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:11 am
by RiverDog
c_hawkbob wrote:But this is not an example of the NFL behaving badly (the incident itself anyway) this is an example of the Washington Redskins behaving badly. I doubt this is the norm among all squads.


It's not? Did you read the entire article? If so, then perhaps you missed this little tidbit:

Interviews with dozens of current and former N.F.L. cheerleaders revealed a common perspective: They enjoyed performing at games, developing friendships with other cheerleaders and participating in charity work, which included visiting hospitals and going overseas to entertain military troops. But they were disturbed by some of the extracurricular requirements that put them in what they considered unsafe situations.

Additionally, there's the very recent issue with the fired New Orleans Saints cheerleader that revealed some very disturbing rules that are blatantly discriminatory and that we probably haven't heard the end of.

And we have the Jerry Richardson scandal, which although it didn't involve cheerleaders, or at least not limited to cheerleaders but female employees of the team, it all adds up to the NFL behaving very badly when it comes to their treatment of female employees.

IMO the NFL needs to eliminate cheerleaders or at the very least, put some distance between them and not have them associated with the team. They could handle them like they handle the halftime marching bands, let the colleges supply the game with cheerleaders on a rotating basis.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:12 am
by mykc14
NorthHawk wrote:But that's the point, they're costumes are not overly skimpy.
I've seen skimpier garb while walking down the street. Not as a group, but as individuals, and this article didn't imply it was their dress that caused this happening to occur, but rather you could infer that it was because they are very attractive women. It probably would have happened no matter what they wear on the sidelines. They were put in a very vulnerable situation that could happen to any group of attractive women, and not just Cheerleaders.
And someone should be held accountable.


I see what you are saying and understand that one of the criteria for becoming a cheerleader is that you have to be fit and attractive. I think it is an extreme example of what happens on every Sunday with the cheerleaders, though. The cheerleaders are put on camera because of their sex appeal. They wear skimpy outfits because it increases their sex appeal. The Redskins took this to an extreme and removed their tops because of their sex appeal. If the cheerleaders were allowed to have a say in how they were being viewed (an aspect of which probably would still be sex appeal) and allowed to wear what they wanted something like this would be much less likely to happen.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:26 am
by RiverDog
NorthHawk wrote:I would suggest to you that under the right circumstances a dance troupe could fall victim to the same thing. It's not Cheerleader exclusive. Those types of people prey on the vulnerable and naive.


They could, but IMO not nearly as likely. The NFL is obviously a male dominated industry, dance troupes are not. That fact alone would make NFL cheerleaders much more suceptible to the types of situations like that which occurred with the Redskins cheerleaders than female performers in a dance troupe.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 11:48 am
by c_hawkbob
RiverDog wrote:It's not? Did you read the entire article? If so, then perhaps you missed this little tidbit:

Interviews with dozens of current and former N.F.L. cheerleaders revealed a common perspective: They enjoyed performing at games, developing friendships with other cheerleaders and participating in charity work, which included visiting hospitals and going overseas to entertain military troops. But they were disturbed by some of the extracurricular requirements that put them in what they considered unsafe situations.

Additionally, there's the very recent issue with the fired New Orleans Saints cheerleader that revealed some very disturbing rules that are blatantly discriminatory and that we probably haven't heard the end of.

And we have the Jerry Richardson scandal, which although it didn't involve cheerleaders, or at least not limited to cheerleaders but female employees of the team, it all adds up to the NFL behaving very badly when it comes to their treatment of female employees.

IMO the NFL needs to eliminate cheerleaders or at the very least, put some distance between them and not have them associated with the team. They could handle them like they handle the halftime marching bands, let the colleges supply the game with cheerleaders on a rotating basis.


There are also quotes from other cheerleaders casting some doubt on the severity and frequency of issues as described by some. If you're going to credit one side of an argument you must at least acknowledge the other side.

And I'm aware of the Saints cheerleaders situation, and the Eagles cheerleaders scandal from a few years ago. I'm not saying there is not a problem, I'm sure that given the attractiveness of the women involved and the low wages (if any) they make that there are more examples of individuals in positions of influence that try to take advantage of the situation. But I'm saying saying that you can't throw the same aspersion at the whole NFL because of these incidents. I'm sure there are squads that have strong, responsible management that sees to it that this sort of thing doesn't happen as a rule.

I also think that given the wide variety of moral persuasions of the girls involved that there are several on every squad that have a differing opinion of whats been reported than others.

Fix what's wrong, but don't accuse everybody of being the kind of cretins the Redskins management appears to be (or have been at least).

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 12:53 pm
by NorthHawk
Here's a quote from the Washington teams response:

"Based on the dialogue we’ve had with a number of current and former cheerleaders over the past 48 hours, we’ve heard very different first-hand accounts that directly contradict many of the details of the May 2 article."

We don't know what the real story is at this point. It may be even worse than reported, but it also may not be as bad as the article makes it out to be.
In either case, it sounds like they were put in a compromising situation that they might not have wanted and it should be investigated properly.

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:06 pm
by RiverDog
NorthHawk wrote:Here's a quote from the Washington teams response:

"Based on the dialogue we’ve had with a number of current and former cheerleaders over the past 48 hours, we’ve heard very different first-hand accounts that directly contradict many of the details of the May 2 article."

We don't know what the real story is at this point. It may be even worse than reported, but it also may not be as bad as the article makes it out to be.
In either case, it sounds like they were put in a compromising situation that they might not have wanted and it should be investigated properly.


Here's a quote from the linked story:

This account of the Redskins’ calendar shoot at the Occidental Grand Papagayo is based on interviews with five cheerleaders who were involved, and many details were corroborated with others who heard descriptions of the trip at the time. The cheerleaders spoke on condition of anonymity because they were required to sign confidentiality agreements when they joined the team.

Of course, we are hearing just one side of the story. But I want to point out that 5 cheerleaders out of a group of 36 represents nearly 14% of them, which is significant. Additionally, according to the story, there was just 9 of the 36 that were chosen to be escorts to a night club, so not all of them may have endured the same experience. And you have to keep in mind the fact that the cheerleaders signed confidentiality agreements and the fact that they hold positions where there are ample applicants just itching to get a chance to join an NFL cheerleading squad might make them reluctant to come out and bite the hand that feeds them. Plus if you read the full article and how owner Dan Snyder was accused by one writer back in 2009 of “bringing the craft closer to pole dancing with every season”, it certainly sounds like an environment that would be ripe for something like this to happen.

Here's an excerpt from an article about the Houston Texan's cheerleaders, where fans voted for their favorites:

The Houston Texans aren’t even bothering with the pretense. On their website is a photo gallery of the finalists from last weekend’s cheerleader tryouts, and visitors are encouraged to vote for their favorites. Are these action shots of the women that highlight their athletic ability or dance skills? Do they include a list of their qualifications?

Of course not. They’re headshots. Sorry, head and chest shots. Close-up ones, at that.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/c ... 527491002/

Re: Rams First Team to Have Male Cheerleaders in NFL

PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:23 am
by RiverDog
More bad press for the NFL regarding their treatment of their cheerleaders:

A sixth former NFL cheerleader is suing the Houston Texans, claiming that she was repeatedly body-shamed and that her coach duct-taped back her skin without her consent. Rosa said that one day before the cheerleaders went out on the field to perform, her coach told her to stay behind in the locker room, and threatened to cut her from the team.

Rosa joins an existing lawsuit against the team in which five former cheerleaders claim that they weren't paid for many of the hours that they worked, and that they were bullied and sexually harassed.



https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/si ... er-n885781