A surprising stat bout the O Line

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A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby trents » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:06 pm

I just read that since 2011the Seahawks have drafted more offensive linemen than any other NFL team.

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2018/ ... -seahawks/
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:22 pm

I think it was mentioned in other threads, but it sure shows the lack of ability in finding OL talent.
You think we'd have at least a solid, if unspectacular group by now.
Maybe it was a combo of Cable's evaluations, relying too much on stats instead of the ability of playing football, and the constant shuffling of OL personnel where they can't get settled and produce before being moved.
It's a great idea to have players that can play more than one position, but if they can't play any position effectively, it's going to show up on the field.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:27 pm

And of all those linemen we drafted, there was just one (Britt) that played well enough to earn a 2nd contract. Just one more piece of evidence of how poor Cable's eye for talent and/or ability to coach up players was.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:43 pm

Lets see, how many good o linemen are available at the end of each draft round?...Yet everyone wants to make the playoffs?
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby NorthHawk » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:05 pm

Largent80 wrote:Lets see, how many good o linemen are available at the end of each draft round?...Yet everyone wants to make the playoffs?


Yet other teams have found solid starters in the middle to late rounds so drafting late isn't that big of a reason.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Seahawks4Ever » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:09 pm

Reason # 003 as to why Pete Carroll is a moron who should be fired. Only Pete could be dealt a Royal Flush and then throws 4 cards into the discard pile because none of them matched...
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:08 am

Just like ALL players, you hit on some, and others not so much. Hitting on them happens a LOT LESS.

Also, Cables scheme and the guys they picked to play there was not a match. It's been said that Pocic has put on 30 pounds of muscle however, so that's a good thing with the interior of the line we had last year getting blown back 4 yards almost every play.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:08 am

Largent80 wrote:Lets see, how many good o linemen are available at the end of each draft round?...Yet everyone wants to make the playoffs?


And the reason why we're picking OL from the bottom of the barrell is because we're trading away our top picks for established players (Harvin, Graham, Richardson, Brown) then trading back in order to accumulate more picks to replace the ones we traded away. IMO part of that philosphy was driven by Tom Cable's over confidence in his ability to identify talent late in the draft and coach them up.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:33 am

Sure we've had 13 Linemen drafted since 2011, but where in the draft were they taken?

The average draft position of our linemen drafted is 130.8 ... 4th round.

Not exactly a commitment to the O-line in my eyes.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:55 am

Everyone knows the best O-Linemen get picked early in the 1st round where we never have picks, mostly because we've been winning for many years now.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:12 am

Pete's only spent a first rounder on an O-linemen twice as a Seahawk.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:37 am

c_hawkbob wrote:Pete's only spent a first rounder on an O-linemen twice as a Seahawk.



Correction: Pete has drafted an OL with a first round pick three times: Okung in 2010 (#6 overall), Carpenter in 2011 (#25), and Ifedi (#31) in 2016. He's only had 5 first round picks available since he got here, and 2 of those was in his first year courtesy of the previous regime.

Like I said, the problem isn't that they aren't willing to spend high picks on the OL, the problem is that we haven't had first round picks to spend and the ones we have taken in the first round haven't played well enough to earn a 2nd contract, a trend that looks to continue considering Ifedi's progress.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:27 am

Apologies. The article referred to drafts since 2011 so those are the stats I'd compiled.

And I'm sorry but even given the 2010 draft I still say we show a lack of serious commitment to the O-line.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:57 am

c_hawkbob wrote:And I'm sorry but even given the 2010 draft I still say we show a lack of serious commitment to the O-line.


No need to apologize, I agree with your premise. Pete let one of our two Pro Bowl OL's walk (Okung) and traded away another Pro Bowler (Unger) with a #1 draft pick for a TE that was a round peg that they tried to fit into a square hole while never coming up with a plan to replace those he let go other than to stand out on the field and holler "next man up!" He's drafted 3 tackles in the first or 2nd rounds (Carpenter, Britt, and Ifedi) and immediately sought to move them to other positions. It's been a revolving door, especially during these past 3 seasons.

But on the positive side, Pete seems to have recognized his failings and has cleaned house, both on the roster as well as the coaching staff. I'm glad he acted now rather than make us suffer through another year or two of mediocrity before coming to the realization that we're not improving.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:40 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Y'all crack me up. Still chasing that tail... truth is, there wasn't these linemen to invest in. Surprises me that after the better part of a DECADE y'all STILL complaining about lack of investment, in lineman, that WEREN'T there to invest in... maybe there's a handful, they missed on, but there is absolutely no glut of quality linemen either in free agency, or the draft, that Seattle repeatedly missed.

It's whining for lack of air, on the moon. Cracks me up. All this time, and y'all still haven't figured it out. Keep insisting they haven't had a lineman play well enough to garner a second contract, yet they all over the NFL, you seem to be confusing Seattle not wanting to overpay for AVERAGE play, with QUALITY play, and lamenting their loss, OR downgrading their performance. Insisting Seattle hasn't had quality starting lineman ( lamenting two that NEVER played an entire season in their career to this day) and professing some sort of a lack of commitment because Seattle refuses to PAY through the nose for shite to average lineman....

Propping up a trade for an old turnstile lineman who performed WORSE than any OTHER lineman in pass protection * that's a FACT* because he comes with a whole lot of $$$$$$ signs behind his name, and dominant play 6 years ago.... using capital that could have been used for lineman in the draft, actually possible QUALITY linemen, ( true hit or miss, but a chance at quality better than 0 chance)

Like I said, chasing your tails....
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby mykc14 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:51 pm

HumanCockroach wrote::lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Y'all crack me up. Still chasing that tail... truth is, there wasn't these linemen to invest in. Surprises me that after the better part of a DECADE y'all STILL complaining about lack of investment, in lineman, that WEREN'T there to invest in... maybe there's a handful, they missed on, but there is absolutely no glut of quality linemen either in free agency, or the draft, that Seattle repeatedly missed.

It's whining for lack of air, on the moon. Cracks me up. All this time, and y'all still haven't figured it out. Keep insisting they haven't had a lineman play well enough to garner a second contract, yet they all over the NFL, you seem to be confusing Seattle not wanting to overpay for AVERAGE play, with QUALITY play, and lamenting their loss, OR downgrading their performance. Insisting Seattle hasn't had quality starting lineman ( lamenting two that NEVER played an entire season in their career to this day) and professing some sort of a lack of commitment because Seattle refuses to PAY through the nose for shite to average lineman....

Like I said, chasing your tails....


You and I have been on the same page on this topic over the years. We paid 7 mil for a broken RG last season (who our OL coach thought was the best RG in the game the previous season). Which really demonstrates the OL issues over the past 4 years, talent is evaluation, not resources used on the position.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:13 am

Yup, but the type of lineman people been clamoring for... 7 to 10 million for average to below average guard, 10+ for an aging below average LT ( that many still insist is "best lineman on the team" to this day, despite him proving game after game, that that dominance from 6 seasons ago, is exactly that, six seasons ago) but, they don't want to actually SEE what's available in the draft, or in free agency, which is a whole lot of nothing, with a rare ( exceedingly, like franchise qb rare) great player....

But if they admitted what they seeing on the field, the claims of poor investment doesn't hold true...

Recommended using the QB barometer.... figure out how many truly elite QBs been drafted from bottom of 1st round and below over last ten to 15 years, and apply that to franchise type lineman.... what's that? 2%? 1%chance? Less?

Yup, about there... Seattle hasn't hit.... neither has pretty much ANYONE, hence Russell Okung signs LARGEST contract for lineman EVER in NFL history, despite being CUT... Sweezy signs LARGEST contract for Guard at the time, yet BOTH had serious flaws, injury problems etc... not sure what it's going to take for people to figure it out... maybe another couple seasons? Make it a full ten years?
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:03 am

HumanCockroach wrote:Yup, about there... Seattle hasn't hit.... neither has pretty much ANYONE, hence Russell Okung signs LARGEST contract for lineman EVER in NFL history, despite being CUT... Sweezy signs LARGEST contract for Guard at the time, yet BOTH had serious flaws, injury problems etc... not sure what it's going to take for people to figure it out... maybe another couple seasons? Make it a full ten years?


HC, the point you keep missing isn't that we should have resigned Okung, Carpenter, Sweezy, et al at the time their contracts were due. I certainly did not advocate resigning any of those guys you mentioned, at least not at for the money they eventually signed for. They weren't worth it.

At the risk of speaking for others, the point that guys like myself, Cbob, and North Hawk have tried to make...the point that you consistently keep whiffing on....is that because they were deemed not worth a 2nd contract that we failed in one of two areas: We either over rated them when we drafted them or we failed to develop them to the point that they actually deserved that 2nd contract. It's a matter of talent identification and/or talent development, not the fact that we chose not to resign them. In the case of Unger, it wasn't the fact that we traded him, it was that we did not have a plan to replace him. Britt only became our center after Unger's original replacement failed miserably and they needed to find a home for Britt as he had failed at two other positions and was at risk of becoming yet another one of Cable's causalities that wasn't going to earn a 2nd contract.

So perhaps after another 10 years your arm will get tired of throwing all those bombs that you so love to chuck and those points will begin to sink in.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:26 am

TB signed Sweezy from us and he played ZERO snaps for them that entire year. He played last year and made zero impact.

Okung was injured almost all the time. He was his own agent and got the best deal for him at the time, hardly the fault of the Hawk F.O.

HC gives D.B. a bum rap in my opinion based on his high ankle sprain last year and having to come in and learn Cables ridiculous scheme and RW's insane sandlot style required the last few years. He's going to be a stud this year...BOOK IT.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:54 am

He's started every game he's played for them. Hardly zero impact.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:39 am

c_hawkbob wrote:He's started every game he's played for them. Hardly zero impact.



Yeah, except HE MISSED THE ENTIRE FIRST YEAR AFTER HE WAS SIGNED at 64 MILLION DOLLARS = ZERO impact, and was graded poorly in ALL the games he played.

Other than that , Sweezy is awesome... :roll:

Evidently you missed the first sentence. HE played ZERO as in NONE, NADA NOTHING, snaps after he signed with them. They lost a whole year of guaranteed money. After that, he was middling. Great non re-sign by the Hawks in my estimation.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Oly » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:06 pm

Largent80 wrote:Yeah, except HE MISSED THE ENTIRE FIRST YEAR AFTER HE WAS SIGNED at 64 MILLION DOLLARS = ZERO impact, and was graded poorly in ALL the games he played.

Other than that , Sweezy is awesome... :roll:

Evidently you missed the first sentence. HE played ZERO as in NONE, NADA NOTHING, snaps after he signed with them. They lost a whole year of guaranteed money. After that, he was middling. Great non re-sign by the Hawks in my estimation.


He didn't miss the first sentence, he just replied to the second:

Largent80 wrote:He played last year and made zero impact.


He made zero impact in the first year and cost them money, but starting every game last year means he made an impact. Perhaps not worth the contract, but the discussion about value is a different discussion.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:20 pm

Nah, I haven't missed anything RD, not many here complaining consistently about the three you mentioned, certainly not the "they don't invest in the line rigamaroll" being discussed WHEN they were HERE.... certainly not the consistent arguments with people ( including you RD) about whether they were NFL starting lineman or not( they were and are just like you and others new whipping boy Ifedi).

I didn't miss anything, y'all just got a case of the forgetsies... I pointed it out last year, and the year before, and the year before.... Y'all complain about the lack of investment, talent, skill , work ethic of pretty much every lineman. You're good or even happy when they leave, then you bemoan them when you find somebody else to whine about...

Like I said, chasing your tails.

I said at the time, Carpenter was good and should be resigned, y'all called me crazy, or only if it was on the cheap, I said Sweezy was good enough to be resigned, y'all claimed he was a project that shouldn't have been playing in the first place.... Okung never played, so good riddance, I argued Unger was a great center with several, before Spencer got dumped, was told I was blind, and that he would never be good, been told I'm blind about Brown just recently, watch....

Scheme don't explain not touching a de in front of you, nor does it explain getting put on your arse. at least once a game...

My track record been pretty damn solid, ain't my problem if y'all don't want to acknowledge that, or listen, or at least consider it. Brown may have another mediocre year in him can't get much worse than last, and stay on the field, regardless, his best, dominant days were 6 years ago... not disrespectful, irrational, idiotic, or foolish to acknowledge that fact.

As for the second contract shield, you guys didn't want them at that cost? Fine. Neither did Seattle, so either you're saying you're as dumb as Seattle FO when it comes to lineman, or as smart. You choose which y'all prefer to be....

For my part, I seem to grasp that paying those guys on a ROOKIE deal, for starting quality play was worth it, overpaying for same, is moronic. Not my issue you have difficulty grasping that concept.... just because an accord runs good and gets the job done, doesn't mean you pay a Lamborghini price for it. You're arguing a lack of evaluation, I would say that's EXCELLENT evaluation. People get drafted on potential and promise, they get PAID on production. None listed produced at the level Seattle deemed worthy of the price tag... GOOD EVALUATION.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby c_hawkbob » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:48 pm

Oly wrote:He didn't miss the first sentence, he just replied to the second:

He made zero impact in the first year and cost them money, but starting every game last year means he made an impact. Perhaps not worth the contract, but the discussion about value is a different discussion.


Exactly Oly, thanks.

And 80, the only thing "evident" is that you have no understanding of degrees. Not everything is 100% or 0%, in fact almost everything is somewhere between. Unclench man, give your blood pressure a chance to subside a bit. I know it's become popular but lashing out at everyone that doesn't say exactly the same thing you do isn't good for you or the conversation.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:50 pm

I didn't have a problem had they kept Carpenter, but Sweezy in my eyes was over rated.
Unfortunately the team let them go without having suitable replacements in place just as they did with Unger (in a trade).
The result was a revolving door at both Guards and a slew of players being tried on the edges and none of the inexperienced players were give time to develop before being shuffled to another position.
Minnesota last year replaced all 5 Offensive Linemen and they did pretty well. We couldn't seem to find 2 or 3.
It's part of the frustration and maybe part of why we are shedding salaries so we could get one or 2 good OL in FA, but we need a good evaluator of talent to really be successful.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:54 pm

Eh, they following GB and NE recipe. Don't overpay for Medicare average free agent lineman. Some teams grasp it, some teams don't. You can pay 1m for lineman through the draft, or you can pay 10m for lineman at or below same level through free agency...

I guess we could have let Wilson and Thomas walk and had an average line instead of a developing one.... not to late, maybe they should cut them both.

:lol:
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:54 pm

The difference between us and them is McCarthy is a very good Offensive Coach (not much of a Defensive mind, however) and Belichick is smart enough that he doesn't dictate what type of Offense they are to run, but he lets his OC decide how best to use the players on that side of the ball.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:43 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:Nah, I haven't missed anything RD, not many here complaining consistently about the three you mentioned, certainly not the "they don't invest in the line rigamaroll" being discussed WHEN they were HERE.... certainly not the consistent arguments with people ( including you RD) about whether they were NFL starting lineman or not( they were and are just like you and others new whipping boy Ifedi).

I didn't miss anything, y'all just got a case of the forgetsies... I pointed it out last year, and the year before, and the year before.... Y'all complain about the lack of investment, talent, skill , work ethic of pretty much every lineman. You're good or even happy when they leave, then you bemoan them when you find somebody else to whine about...

Like I said, chasing your tails.

I said at the time, Carpenter was good and should be resigned, y'all called me crazy, or only if it was on the cheap, I said Sweezy was good enough to be resigned, y'all claimed he was a project that shouldn't have been playing in the first place.... Okung never played, so good riddance, I argued Unger was a great center with several, before Spencer got dumped, was told I was blind, and that he would never be good, been told I'm blind about Brown just recently, watch....

Scheme don't explain not touching a de in front of you, nor does it explain getting put on your arse. at least once a game...

My track record been pretty damn solid, ain't my problem if y'all don't want to acknowledge that, or listen, or at least consider it. Brown may have another mediocre year in him can't get much worse than last, and stay on the field, regardless, his best, dominant days were 6 years ago... not disrespectful, irrational, idiotic, or foolish to acknowledge that fact.

As for the second contract shield, you guys didn't want them at that cost? Fine. Neither did Seattle, so either you're saying you're as dumb as Seattle FO when it comes to lineman, or as smart. You choose which y'all prefer to be....

For my part, I seem to grasp that paying those guys on a ROOKIE deal, for starting quality play was worth it, overpaying for same, is moronic. Not my issue you have difficulty grasping that concept.... just because an accord runs good and gets the job done, doesn't mean you pay a Lamborghini price for it. You're arguing a lack of evaluation, I would say that's EXCELLENT evaluation. People get drafted on potential and promise, they get PAID on production. None listed produced at the level Seattle deemed worthy of the price tag... GOOD EVALUATION.


So who was it that was trumpeting this "vastly improved" offensive line of ours two years ago? Just where did that get us?

Sorry, HC, but your credibility on this issue doesn't rise to the level of your current rhetoric. You've made just as many bad calls as the rest of us.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:07 am

A pro bowl center, who has been deemed worthy of a second contract ( something you claimed wasn't going to happen) multiple lineman that are young and improving, unfortunately a bunch of wasted draft picks on an expensive retread at LT instead of a possible franchise LT due to injury, and QB that has forgotten to throw the ball on time?

I don't know RD, more time, and more hits to the QB? You figure it out, I don't care what you feel about it, Wilson holds the ball to long, luckily, instead of having to continue to insist it's happening, most not blinded by Wilson worship, are seeing it ( and it only took 2+ seasons) and are calling him on it. Not just fans ( many here who refused to acknowledge it then) but media, evaluators, COACHES.... as I insisted then, I don't absolve play, but I don't ignore what's happening either. I certainly don't cling to scapegoats, whether it be the line, the FG kicker or some other whipping boy. Pointless to...

Ultimately the BIGGEST failure along that line has been, LT... unfortunately, they compounded their failures last season by going "all in" on a tackle that was last a franchise type tackle over half a decade ago, threw away valuable draft capital to do so, and are paying a pro bowl type player for the privilege.

Your expectations are still unattainable, believing ALL five developing players would turn into top tier players emphasises that point perfectly. The continued lauding of a turnstile at LT while lambasting a second year right tackle who performed at a higher level than said expensive left tackle also a prime example.

In two years, people will be applauding Brown being dumped, in 3 they'll be claiming lack of evaluation, in 4 they'll be bemoaning his loss, and whining about whomever replaced him, without even realizing they've been down that same road, over and over, and over again. I expect you to be standing in that group, you'll forgive me if I don't feel like joining you. Repetitive actions expecting a different outcome, without change, is the very definition of insanity. I don't operate that way, and never will. Not my thing, but enjoy.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:16 am

And please pre tell... cite specific blown calls on what I've said... not some general claim about your evaluation of a young developing line, but please, explain which lineman I lauded, that I was completely off base on... hell. List them all, lineman or not. Thing is, I don't go all in on ANY player, either good or bad. Also not my thing. That's a you deal.

In fact the ONLY players I've ever done that on early, was Bobby Wagner, Richard Sherman, and Cortez Kennedy, and Kenny Easley. They worked out ok I suppose. Didn't do it on Kam, Wilson, Thomas, Baldwin, Jones, Warner, Lynch, Largent ( to young to do so).... so I guess you can cite those as failures
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:32 am

One needs to remember that Wilson was the beneficiary of Lynch in his early years and the team enjoyed the aspect of the play action pass. You NEVER saw RW holding onto the ball during this time period. The last 3 years have been dreadful running the ball and couple that with Cables system and the people selected to impliment it and the fingers are being pointed in multiple directions.

Some of those fingers are deserved and some not. We will see going forward with all new coaches and hopefully one of Chubb, Guice or Jones at RB if they are so inclined to get one of them.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby mykc14 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:01 am

HumanCockroach wrote:I don't know RD, more time, and more hits to the QB? You figure it out, I don't care what you feel about it, Wilson holds the ball to long, luckily, instead of having to continue to insist it's happening, most not blinded by Wilson worship, are seeing it ( and it only took 2+ seasons) and are calling him on it. Not just fans ( many here who refused to acknowledge it then) but media, evaluators, COACHES.... as I insisted then, I don't absolve play, but I don't ignore what's happening either. I certainly don't cling to scapegoats, whether it be the line, the FG kicker or some other whipping boy. Pointless to...



Honestly I haven't found too many Wilson worshipers here. Very few give him a pass when he has poor games. I am one of those who consistently defends him against what I deem as unfair criticism. At the same time I feel like I criticize him when it is warranted. He absolutely holds onto the ball too long. There is no doubt about that. My question has always been is it due to scheme (clearly early in his career the offensive plan was to pound the ball and then use play action to create 'explosive plays,' something PC LOVES). Wilson CLEARLY progression skips at times (looks past what seems like it should be his first progression on a quick completion for a bigger play). Wilson has also been hammered with the idea that he can't turn the ball over, something that certainly is a major aspect of PC's offensive philosophy. IMO, this causes him to be tentative at times. Bevell's route concepts have been called unimaginative and simple by multiple analysts. This may create a situation in which DB's are jumping routes causing Wilson to hold onto the ball.

With all of that being said we saw a glimpse of what Wilson can do when offensive philosophy and his decisions combine to form a quick hitting pass first offense. At the end of 2015 RW was as good as any QB has every been. The offense clearly looked different than it ever has in his time here. It was pass first. It was quick and really resembled a spread west coast scheme. I was excited to see what it would look like in 2016. Unfortunately, the O looked like it had for most of RW's career (if you remember that game the O looked really bad, like it has so many times since then. It was the game Suh stepped on his ankle). As the season progressed RW played hurt and the OL played terrible. The offense never even closely resembled what it did towards the end of 2015. Again, why? Was it RW progression skipping? Was it the offensive philosophy (run first and hit 'explosive plays')? Did opposing defenses figure out Bevell's simple route concepts (or did those have to be simple because RW has trouble seeing or reading D's?)? Was our OL play so bad that the O never had a chance?

I'm more than willing to say RW should be putting up better numbers and playing better overall, I just question what the root cause is. I certainly can be his issue but it also could be any number of other issues. Unfortunately, I think we dropped the ball with our OC hire (I really hope I am wrong). RW is a unique QB who would thrive with a forward thinking OC. PC's offensive philosophy limits what we will ever be able to see from him, IMO.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:15 am

People complaining about Wilson don't know Kelly Stouffer. Be happy, and do some homework on WHY he's had to throw more, if you are too lazy I'll help you. RUNNING GAME....There does that help? Therapy session over.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:23 am

HumanCockroach wrote:And please pre tell... cite specific blown calls on what I've said... not some general claim about your evaluation of a young developing line, but please, explain which lineman I lauded, that I was completely off base on... hell. List them all, lineman or not. Thing is, I don't go all in on ANY player, either good or bad. Also not my thing. That's a you deal.

In fact the ONLY players I've ever done that on early, was Bobby Wagner, Richard Sherman, and Cortez Kennedy, and Kenny Easley. They worked out ok I suppose. Didn't do it on Kam, Wilson, Thomas, Baldwin, Jones, Warner, Lynch, Largent ( to young to do so).... so I guess you can cite those as failures


Look, I'm not into tracking your every prognostication. I do know that a year and a half ago that you and I got into a very long debate about this "vastly improved offensive line" that you defended tooth and nail for months before I finally got under your skin and you chose to run and hide rather than admit that you made a bad call, which was all I was really looking for.

You don't need to read me your resume. IMO you have one of if not the best football minds in this forum. The point I was trying to make was that your non stop bomb throwing "LMAO's" and laughing symbols that you use to taunt me and others with is becoming very annoying. Why can't you just make your point and leave it at that?

You and I, as well as a couple of others, are responsible for running off Anthony. I don't want to see other posters get discouraged and leave.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby Largent80 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:32 am

You are "chasing your tail" and since you are a self professed dog, he may be onto something.... :lol:
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:53 am

mykc14 wrote:Honestly I haven't found too many Wilson worshipers here. Very few give him a pass when he has poor games. I am one of those who consistently defends him against what I deem as unfair criticism. At the same time I feel like I criticize him when it is warranted. He absolutely holds onto the ball too long. There is no doubt about that. My question has always been is it due to scheme (clearly early in his career the offensive plan was to pound the ball and then use play action to create 'explosive plays,' something PC LOVES). Wilson CLEARLY progression skips at times (looks past what seems like it should be his first progression on a quick completion for a bigger play). Wilson has also been hammered with the idea that he can't turn the ball over, something that certainly is a major aspect of PC's offensive philosophy. IMO, this causes him to be tentative at times. Bevell's route concepts have been called unimaginative and simple by multiple analysts. This may create a situation in which DB's are jumping routes causing Wilson to hold onto the ball.

With all of that being said we saw a glimpse of what Wilson can do when offensive philosophy and his decisions combine to form a quick hitting pass first offense. At the end of 2015 RW was as good as any QB has every been. The offense clearly looked different than it ever has in his time here. It was pass first. It was quick and really resembled a spread west coast scheme. I was excited to see what it would look like in 2016. Unfortunately, the O looked like it had for most of RW's career (if you remember that game the O looked really bad, like it has so many times since then. It was the game Suh stepped on his ankle). As the season progressed RW played hurt and the OL played terrible. The offense never even closely resembled what it did towards the end of 2015. Again, why? Was it RW progression skipping? Was it the offensive philosophy (run first and hit 'explosive plays')? Did opposing defenses figure out Bevell's simple route concepts (or did those have to be simple because RW has trouble seeing or reading D's?)? Was our OL play so bad that the O never had a chance?

I'm more than willing to say RW should be putting up better numbers and playing better overall, I just question what the root cause is. I certainly can be his issue but it also could be any number of other issues. Unfortunately, I think we dropped the ball with our OC hire (I really hope I am wrong). RW is a unique QB who would thrive with a forward thinking OC. PC's offensive philosophy limits what we will ever be able to see from him, IMO.


Good post, mykc.

I agree with you about our treatment of RW. Although everyone falls at different places along a sliding approval scale, I do think that as a rule, this forum has been very fair in their handling of Russell. And yes, there are a number of times he holds onto the ball too long, looking for the home run. I attend several games per season, and am usually sitting in the upper level of the stadium but with a sightline across the field, and it becomes very apparent that he has open receivers at the 10-15 yard range and for some reason doesn't throw to them, with the question being did he not see them or did he see them and chose to look for a bigger play.

Furthermore, if Russell is looking for the home run, I wonder if it was by design, if he was told not to check down too often, or if it was his decision. Being the good soldier that we all know Russell to be, I have to think that a lot of it was due to the philosphy of our former OC.

One of the more interesting story lines of 2018 will be the interaction between Russell and our new OC. He's only played for the one OC during his entire professional career.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby HumanCockroach » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:16 pm

I don't run, or hide River. You got an over inflated sense of importance in my life. I was tired of rehashing it senselessly over, and over again. So I stopped. You should read the last part of that post again. Not really something I think worth my time. Obviously that WASN'T your personal position, as you continue to cite that discussion, which never was grasped by you and STILL to this day hasn't been.

Never cited greatness, never cited amazing play, never proved anything was "fixed" because it seems, unlike you, I don't believe there is such a thing as "finished" work, ever. Don't feel that way about any unit, player, or coach. There is no complete, or level where you say "done " nothing else needed.

I pointed out Wilson's issues then, only to receive constant backlash. Have you figured it out yet? The rest seem to have, but I'm not entirely sure you're there yet. Maybe I'll give it another year or two, so you can catch up.

Regardless, you can think I'm a coward, or weak willed, or whatever other thing you feel you want to label me, truth is, I don't need this forum, to discuss the Hawks, and I certainly could care less how you feel about my opinion, belief, what I see, or discuss here or anywhere else. My understanding of football has always been there's better play, or better results that can be garnered at EVERY position, always. That said, I also seemingly have the ability to grasp, expectations for that ultimate goal, can and should be tempered with realistic expectations and it is possible to be satisfied with where you're at, WITHOUT being overly critical because of where you WANT to be.
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Re: A surprising stat bout the O Line

Postby RiverDog » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:49 pm

HumanCockroach wrote:I don't run, or hide River. You got an over inflated sense of importance in my life. I was tired of rehashing it senselessly over, and over again. So I stopped. You should read the last part of that post again. Not really something I think worth my time. Obviously that WASN'T your personal position, as you continue to cite that discussion, which never was grasped by you and STILL to this day hasn't been.

Never cited greatness, never cited amazing play, never proved anything was "fixed" because it seems, unlike you, I don't believe there is such a thing as "finished" work, ever. Don't feel that way about any unit, player, or coach. There is no complete, or level where you say "done " nothing else needed.

I pointed out Wilson's issues then, only to receive constant backlash. Have you figured it out yet? The rest seem to have, but I'm not entirely sure you're there yet. Maybe I'll give it another year or two, so you can catch up.

Regardless, you can think I'm a coward, or weak willed, or whatever other thing you feel you want to label me, truth is, I don't need this forum, to discuss the Hawks, and I certainly could care less how you feel about my opinion, belief, what I see, or discuss here or anywhere else. My understanding of football has always been there's better play, or better results that can be garnered at EVERY position, always. That said, I also seemingly have the ability to grasp, expectations for that ultimate goal, can and should be tempered with realistic expectations and it is possible to be satisfied with where you're at, WITHOUT being overly critical because of where you WANT to be.


I can handle your criticism, but your trash talking is very annoying, even when you aren't directing it at me, so please, cut back on the sarcasm, on the LMAO's, and the laughing faces. Speaking for myself, you make me feel as if I'm an enemy of yours if I disagree or express a different POV. We've already lost one poster today, perhaps we can all take the hint and start treating each other with a little more respect. Fair enough?

I wouldn't expect you to remember it, but I've been pretty much on your side when it comes to the criticism of our starting QB and actually came to your defense when you started receiving some flak. Earlier in the thread, I mentioned a sliding scale of RW critics, and if we were to put you at one end, I'd place myself just a tad bit closer to the center vs. your position.
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