Penalties

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Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:50 am

I found a good website that tracks penalties and breaks them down into different categories and can bring up past performance as far back as 2009.

http://www.nflpenalties.com/

As you might expect, we lead the league in penalties with 112, or an average of 8 per game. The company we keep isn't too good, with half of the top 10 being teams that are last in their divisions, ie Houston, Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Oakland, and St. Louis. But we do find Denver in there, too, checking in at #4.

It can't all be bad. After all, we do have a 12-2 record and much of the penalty issue has to do with the aggressive style of football that we play, a characteristic that has contributed mightily to our success. But if you take a look at the numbers, well over a third of those penalties, 40 in all, are pre snap...false starts, delay of game, illegal motion, defensive offsides, etc. Those cannot be attributed to aggressive play.

Is it a concern?
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Re: Penalties

Postby Oly » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:05 am

RiverDog wrote: It can't all be bad. After all, we do have a 12-2 record and much of the penalty issue has to do with the aggressive style of football that we play, a characteristic that has contributed mightily to our success. But if you take a look at the numbers, well over a third of those penalties, 40 in all, are pre snap...false starts, delay of game, illegal motion, defensive offsides, etc. Those cannot be attributed to aggressive play.

Is it a concern?


You nailed it. The pre snap stuff in inexcusable, and you and I have been complaining about this for the entirety of the PC era (although I don't post very often). The aggressive stuff, though: I'm fine with the increase in penalties that comes along with it. The in-play penalties that really get me are offensive holding penalties, but part of those comes with the quality of the linemen. The OL has been hit hard the past couple of years and you'd expect backups to have to resort to holding more often.
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Re: Penalties

Postby wait_a_sec » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:26 am

I get bugged by the ticky tack holding and PI calls. I get steamed with the bone head stuff. Both come from our style of play and our age. I think we would have won the SF game because one came on a 3rd and long that then turned into a TD for SF.

Hopefully we can clean this up enough for the playoffs. Would hate to lose a game this way.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:36 am

Offensive pre-snap penalties might be a problem - I didn't look at the attachment - because they should know the snap count, be familiar with Russell's cadence, and know the play.
Defensive pre-snap penalties might be able to be blamed in part on the aggressive nature of our Defense. When those guys are lined up and ready to get after the QB, they may be somewhat susceptible to being drawn off side.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Hawkstar » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:44 am

wait_a_sec wrote:I get bugged by the ticky tack holding and PI calls. I get steamed with the bone head stuff. Both come from our style of play and our age. I think we would have won the SF game because one came on a 3rd and long that then turned into a TD for SF.

Hopefully we can clean this up enough for the playoffs. Would hate to lose a game this way.


The 3rd down stuff drives me nuts. Either extending a drive or killing ours. (the Tate Offensive PI in the Niner game... ugh!) Browner used to be a magnet for flags on 3rd down. Clem has drawn his fair share this season.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:45 am

wait_a_sec wrote:I get bugged by the ticky tack holding and PI calls. I get steamed with the bone head stuff. Both come from our style of play and our age. I think we would have won the SF game because one came on a 3rd and long that then turned into a TD for SF.

Hopefully we can clean this up enough for the playoffs. Would hate to lose a game this way.


Although no penalty is acceptable, I can handle an offensive holding call if it's a pass play and our blocker senses that he's getting beat, as the alternative to not holding is to risk a blind side hit on our quarterback, creating the possibility of a turnover, or worse yet, an injury. Running plays are a different matter, especially when they're on the side opposite of where the play's going. Those errors are coachable.

Stupid PF's always get me going. That fair catch interference penalty on us vs. SF was completely the fault of our coverage guy and is something that should not be tolerated by our coaching staff. Same goes for late hits, with the exception of the ticky tack roughing the passer penalties, of which some can be almost impossible to avoid.

Pete's teams have notoriously been amongst the highest penalized. I get frustrated with him when I hear him trivialize them in his press conferences, implying that they are just some small little detail that "we need to clean up." IMO it needs to be emphasized more than some little house keeping chore. We burned a very valuable timeout in the SF game because we were about to get tagged for a delay of game penalty. Mistakes like that could kill us in a close game, and bring a premature end to our fairy tale of a season. It needs to be a top priority for our coaching staff on the things to do list.

But, as I'm sure someone will mention, we're 12-2, so things can't be that bad. But that doesn't mean everything is perfect, either. I don't want to lose a close game because we were so comfortable with our 12-2 record that we quit striving for perfection.
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Re: Penalties

Postby FolkCrusader » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:03 am

Any idea how many times you have made the same damn post RD? I'm betting this is at least 10.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:08 am

FolkCrusader wrote:Any idea how many times you have made the same damn post RD? I'm betting this is at least 10.


Might be more than that. It's been a pet peeve of mine since Pete took over, and until we get them under control, you're likely to hear more from me about them. I am used to Mike Holmgren coached teams in which we were always amongst the least penalized. That doesn't necessarily mean that I prefer Holmgren coached teams over Pete's.
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Re: Penalties

Postby savvyman » Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:14 am

I am still of the belief that most of the NFL Refs show up with Bias against the Seahawks most Sundays. I developed a simple analysis for the PI Board that supports such a viewpoint.

Yes the excessive penalties do matter - They can create the margin of difference which can cost a better team to lose to an inferior team. And you do not want this to happen in a playoff situation.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:14 pm

RiverDog wrote:
FolkCrusader wrote:Any idea how many times you have made the same damn post RD? I'm betting this is at least 10.


Might be more than that. It's been a pet peeve of mine since Pete took over, and until we get them under control, you're likely to hear more from me about them. I am used to Mike Holmgren coached teams in which we were always amongst the least penalized. That doesn't necessarily mean that I prefer Holmgren coached teams over Pete's.


Holmgren used to get a Tomato face when we had dumb penalties he was so angry. If he was coaching another team I would have thought it funny.
It makes me wonder how his teams would have done if visiting the CLink and not handling the noise well.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Eaglehawk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:15 pm

Penalties are horrible but lets not forget: the Ravens were almost the most penalized team in football, yet they won the SB.
What does that mean? It means that good teams are all over aggressive. With the exception of Holmgren and dare I say, the Pats until recently.

As mentioned some penalties such as pre snap are simply RIDICULOUS! The rest of the stuff we will have to fix as best as possible.

If its between taking a few pi penalties every now and then or simply giving up and playing half azzed. I will take the occasional penalty or two.

But the pre snap sht is ridiculous.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:18 pm

NorthHawk wrote:
RiverDog wrote:
FolkCrusader wrote:Any idea how many times you have made the same damn post RD? I'm betting this is at least 10.


Might be more than that. It's been a pet peeve of mine since Pete took over, and until we get them under control, you're likely to hear more from me about them. I am used to Mike Holmgren coached teams in which we were always amongst the least penalized. That doesn't necessarily mean that I prefer Holmgren coached teams over Pete's.


Holmgren used to get a Tomato face when we had dumb penalties he was so angry. If he was coaching another team I would have thought it funny.
It makes me wonder how his teams would have done if visiting the CLink and not handling the noise well.


The only thing that made Holmgren madder than a stupid penalty was a stupid turnover. Remember how he used to berate poor Matt when he made a bonehead mistake? It's no wonder we committed such few penalties and made such few mistakes back then. Players were deathly afraid to face the old man when he was pissed.

But Holmgren's strict discipline came at a price. As a result of his temper, players never wanted to talk to him. He cut himself off from the rest of the team, particularly his defense, and lost touch. You didn't hear players saying how much they liked playing for him. Although no one would speak ill of him, they didn't go out of their way to compliment him, either. Pete's a lot different, he rarely loses his cool with a player, at least not in public, and has a result, has a much better rapport with his players. He has a lot better feel for which players fit his system than Holmgren had for his.

Bottom line is that each style has its strengths and weaknesses. Penalties are one of Pete's weaknesses.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Zorn76 » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:07 pm

Interesting link.

What I didn't see listed (though maybe it's there) - and what I think is the most important thing - is how many opponent first downs have resulted directly from a penalty (1st downs by penalty in any given box score stats)? I realize other infractions can lead to 1st downs, but the ones that give 4 new downs directly are particularly frustrating.

Regardless, to be among the league leaders in that category yet be #1 in points allowed is quite remarkable. That's really the most important defensive stat anyway, for all intents and purposes.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Eaglehawk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:39 am

It also tells me that penalties will not factor in to our games. We seem to be able to overcome them this year. I don't like that we lead the league in this area though, it reflects lack of discipline.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:10 am

Eaglehawk wrote:It also tells me that penalties will not factor in to our games. We seem to be able to overcome them this year. I don't like that we lead the league in this area though, it reflects lack of discipline.


Obviously we've done a great job at overcoming penalties as we've only lost twice in 14 games, but I'm a bit lost on how it tells you that they won't factor into our games. They were certainly a factor in the Niners game.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:43 am

The Hawks lead the league in penalties for 2 reasons. #1, they are an agressive team that pushes the envelope on both sides of the ball. #2 refs don't respect them. I wont go through the list of ridiculous calls and games with 1 sided officiating but there have been plenty . Refs are fond of calling holding on Seattle but will almost NEVER flag an opponent this season. The concern to me is that there have been a few of the more recent games where it seems the guys are committing more boneheaded obvious fouls any ref would call unless it was the Stealers in XL. Knowing they are starting 25 yards behind in the race they need to stop making it even worse with stupid, undisciplined no brainer fouls. The 9ers game indeed proved that against a very talented opponent a couple of flags can be the difference. Guess who were playing the rest of the way? Hawks, clean it up. Refs,let em play...........
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Re: Penalties

Postby savvyman » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:46 am

Hawktawk wrote: Refs are fond of calling holding on Seattle but will almost NEVER flag an opponent this season.



Word +1
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:26 am

Hawktawk wrote:The Hawks lead the league in penalties for 2 reasons. #1, they are an agressive team that pushes the envelope on both sides of the ball. #2 refs don't respect them. I wont go through the list of ridiculous calls and games with 1 sided officiating but there have been plenty . Refs are fond of calling holding on Seattle but will almost NEVER flag an opponent this season. The concern to me is that there have been a few of the more recent games where it seems the guys are committing more boneheaded obvious fouls any ref would call unless it was the Stealers in XL. Knowing they are starting 25 yards behind in the race they need to stop making it even worse with stupid, undisciplined no brainer fouls. The 9ers game indeed proved that against a very talented opponent a couple of flags can be the difference. Guess who were playing the rest of the way? Hawks, clean it up. Refs,let em play...........


I'm not going to accept that, not with as many pre snap penalties that we've drawn, over a third of our total. We might pick up a few more penalties due to our aggressive play, but neither that or 'the refs are out to get us' conspiracy theory can explain that kind of discrepancy. Something else is at work.
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Re: Penalties

Postby NorthHawk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:08 am

RiverDog wrote:
Hawktawk wrote:The Hawks lead the league in penalties for 2 reasons. #1, they are an agressive team that pushes the envelope on both sides of the ball. #2 refs don't respect them. I wont go through the list of ridiculous calls and games with 1 sided officiating but there have been plenty . Refs are fond of calling holding on Seattle but will almost NEVER flag an opponent this season. The concern to me is that there have been a few of the more recent games where it seems the guys are committing more boneheaded obvious fouls any ref would call unless it was the Stealers in XL. Knowing they are starting 25 yards behind in the race they need to stop making it even worse with stupid, undisciplined no brainer fouls. The 9ers game indeed proved that against a very talented opponent a couple of flags can be the difference. Guess who were playing the rest of the way? Hawks, clean it up. Refs,let em play...........


I'm not going to accept that, not with as many pre snap penalties that we've drawn, over a third of our total. We might pick up a few more penalties due to our aggressive play, but neither that or 'the refs are out to get us' conspiracy theory can explain that kind of discrepancy. Something else is at work.


I agree with that, RD. The refereeing across the league has been less than atrocious - probably the worst I can remember for all teams.
Another post above suggest there is a lack of discipline at work. Maybe to a degree there is but if the players minuses outweigh their plusses then they won't get on the field much as PC will play the guy who gives the team the better chance to win.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Hawktawk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:19 pm

RiverDog wrote:
Hawktawk wrote:The Hawks lead the league in penalties for 2 reasons. #1, they are an agressive team that pushes the envelope on both sides of the ball. #2 refs don't respect them. I wont go through the list of ridiculous calls and games with 1 sided officiating but there have been plenty . Refs are fond of calling holding on Seattle but will almost NEVER flag an opponent this season. The concern to me is that there have been a few of the more recent games where it seems the guys are committing more boneheaded obvious fouls any ref would call unless it was the Stealers in XL. Knowing they are starting 25 yards behind in the race they need to stop making it even worse with stupid, undisciplined no brainer fouls. The 9ers game indeed proved that against a very talented opponent a couple of flags can be the difference. Guess who were playing the rest of the way? Hawks, clean it up. Refs,let em play...........


I'm not going to accept that, not with as many pre snap penalties that we've drawn, over a third of our total. We might pick up a few more penalties due to our aggressive play, but neither that or 'the refs are out to get us' conspiracy theory can explain that kind of discrepancy. Something else is at work.



Ya RD the pre snap stuff is in the boneheaded category that I alluded to, along with running into the return man, needless personal fouls etc.. My guess is those penalties are a significant percentage of everyone's total. Also they are''nt
'always so cut and dried. I've seen Hawks defenders flinch, the O lineman respond and its offsides. When the situation is reversed its a false start on Seattle.

I will be suspicious of NFL officials forever. Changing the forum name wont change my stance on that. I think NFL officials call far too many penalties in general.And they definitely pick winners and losers in many situations, and not just Seattle, although we are often on the short end of that stick.
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Re: Penalties

Postby Mo the Toe » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:01 pm

Another credit to our special teams is it seems they rarely have holding penalties. Nothing more frustrating than adding 10 yards to a punt after a holding penalty.
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Re: Penalties

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:13 pm

Mo the Toe wrote:Another credit to our special teams is it seems they rarely have holding penalties. Nothing more frustrating than adding 10 yards to a punt after a holding penalty.


I'll second that. Special teams play has been nothing less than phenomenal. Hauschka has missed just one fg attempt all year, the one that got blocked, and Ryan's punt return yardage is unheard of. It is the most overlooked aspect of our success this season.
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