Paul Moyer Comments

[TriCitySam]

I listened to Moyer on 710, he says he went back and reviewed tape on all of a Russell’s 47 sacks. In his analysis, he says 31 times RW could have gotten rid of the ball. 29 of those times it was also scheme related (nobody got open or a zone blitz is coming and our scheme wasn’t right to pick it up- but RW has to see it and unload it). He counted only 18 that were simply the fault of the OL. Interesting. Can’t say how correct he is, but it does give credence to PFF rating our line 16th.

He noted sometimes, we didn’t have an outlet for him, but 15 times guys were open and he didn’t get it to them.

[RiverDog]

I listened to Moyer on 710, he says he went back and reviewed tape on all of a Russell’s 47 sacks. In his analysis, he says 31 times RW could have gotten rid of the ball. 29 of those times it was also scheme related (nobody got open or a zone blitz is coming and our scheme wasn’t right to pick it up- but RW has to see it and unload it). He counted only 18 that were simply the fault of the OL. Interesting. Can’t say how correct he is, but it does give credence to PFF rating our line 16th.

That observation needs to be supplemented by similar observations of other NFL starting quarterbacks in order for us to be able to draw any conclusions from it. How often does Rodgers take a sack when he could have unloaded it? What's the average number of sacks in the NFL that's attributed solely to the OL vs what our offensive line gives up?

[TriCitySam]

Well, it’s fairly obvious Rogers gets it out quickly and RW doesn’t. His point was that Russ has his fair share of fault in the sack issue.

[RiverDog]

Well, it’s fairly obvious Rogers gets it out quickly and RW doesn’t. His point was that Russ has his fair share of fault in the sack issue.

I understand and agree with Moyer's point. I generally come down on the side that we as fans are assigning too much blame to the offensive line in our pass protection issues. However, if he's going to use that kind of an observation to highlight his point, he needs to do other similar observations to put it in perspective. All quarterbacks experience at least some situations where they get sacked because they held onto the ball too long. Does Russell give up a higher percentage of sacks by holding onto the ball too long than other quarterbacks that have a similar style of play, such as Josh Allen and Baker Mayfield?

It would be an interesting comparison, and if it did show that Russell suffers a significantly higher percentage of sacks than other NFL QB's due to holding onto the ball too long, would really drive home the point.

[NorthHawk]

How many times does he get sacked and there are no outlets available to just dump off? Even on TV we see it every game. The scheme is often horrible and we rarely run screens like others do to take advantage of Defenses
blitzing. Even if the screens don't work, it gives the DL pause to consider and that might be all the difference in protection.

[RiverDog]

How many times does he get sacked and there are no outlets available to just dump off? Even on TV we see it every game. The scheme is often horrible and we rarely run screens like others do to take advantage of Defenses
blitzing. Even if the screens don't work, it gives the DL pause to consider and that might be all the difference in protection.

In the OP, Moyer identified 29 times when sacks were due to scheme, which I assume would include the reasons you've noted, ie no outlets.

I think that we're all saying the same thing, that the OL would appear to be taking some undeserved blame for the sacks and protection issues we've been experiencing.

[Hawktawk]

I listened to Moyer on 710, he says he went back and reviewed tape on all of a Russell’s 47 sacks. In his analysis, he says 31 times RW could have gotten rid of the ball. 29 of those times it was also scheme related (nobody got open or a zone blitz is coming and our scheme wasn’t right to pick it up- but RW has to see it and unload it). He counted only 18 that were simply the fault of the OL. Interesting. Can’t say how correct he is, but it does give credence to PFF rating our line 16th.

He noted sometimes, we didn’t have an outlet for him, but 15 times guys were open and he didn’t get it to them.

The second half of this season this got far worse than I ever recall before in the Wilson era.Holding the ball , passing up or missing the open guys to throw into coverage. Failing to read the field pre snap leading to getting smashed by dead red jailbreaks. Coupled with the inaccuracy it was just shocking to me , like he wasn't even the same guy at times. I see the point made by RD about comparing this analysis to other QBs but lets face it, Russ holds the ball longer than anyone near his age and while he still has straight line quickness I dont think he has the lateral quickness he used to have to make guys miss.

The whole thing is he has brought this scrutiny upon himself with his comments critical of his line. When long time Hawks like Moyer are stepping up to defend the O line its clear they aren't in Russell's corner on this subject.Its gonna be an interesting season.

[NorthHawk]

I think the lack of a consistent running game contributes to it as well. We need another RB that can carry the load and not have so many injuries.
I love how Carson runs, and the effort he gives, but that takes a heavy toll on his ability to be available and to play well each week. We need to
draft a hammer type of RB who can deliver all year long. They're tough to find, but they are out there. If Pete wants to continue with this type of
Offense, it would be wise to draft a big RB every year.

[Hawktawk]

Late in the season we had Carson , Hyde and Penney available . It’s as good a situation as we have had late in the year for quite awhile . Carson averaged 4.8 yards per carry last year but didn’t have nearly the carries. It’s hard to say what happens. Carson will likely be out of Seattle’s price range , Hyde has even more injury history and who knows what’s with Penney or Dee Jay . Still the bottom line is we went home because we completed 11 of 27 and a pick 6. That’s the reality . We gave up 5 sacks . It would be interesting to see moyers breakdown of that game . It’s one of the worst of Wilson’s career for whatever reason .

[obiken]

And remind me, when did Paul Moyer play Quarterback for us?

[Hawktawk]

[quote="obiken"]And remind me, when did Paul Moyer play Quarterback for us?[quote]
Oh please . The analysis of Russ game is pretty similar throughout the league pundits . Mark Sclereth said the same thing . I guess he’s a lineman so that doesn’t count either . Obi everyone wants this to smooth over but I don’t even need any talking head to tell me what I watched with my own eyes last year especially later in the year . Denial doesn’t change that reality or the fact Russ spoke out complaining about others .

[c_hawkbob]

Oh please . The analysis of Russ game is pretty similar throughout the league pundits . Mark Sclereth said the same thing . I guess he’s a lineman so that doesn’t count either . Obi everyone wants this to smooth over but I don’t even need any talking head to tell me what I watched with my own eyes last year especially later in the year . Denial doesn’t change that reality or the fact Russ spoke out complaining about others .

According to Brock Huard (who did play QB for the Seahawks):

Those comments led many to speculate that Wilson wants to leave the Seattle Seahawks entirely.

More likely, the Seahawks are going to simply prioritize getting Wilson the protection he wants in the offseason. By the looks of things, Wilson is going to have the support of the Seahawks locker room to make that happen.

I still say all the strife over his comments is way overblown and not nearly as big a thing to the team as it is to some fans and wonks that need to have something to write about.

[RiverDog]

And remind me, when did Paul Moyer play Quarterback for us?

Oh please . The analysis of Russ game is pretty similar throughout the league pundits . Mark Sclereth said the same thing . I guess he’s a lineman so that doesn’t count either . Obi everyone wants this to smooth over but I don’t even need any talking head to tell me what I watched with my own eyes last year especially later in the year . Denial doesn’t change that reality or the fact Russ spoke out complaining about others .

As a defensive back who played and coached in the NFL for 11 years, Paul Moyer is extremely qualified to offer an opinion on playing the quarterback position, more qualified than someone like Colin Cowherd and certainly a lot more qualified than any of us. Besides, as HT points out, there's a lot of other analysts, such as those at PFF that rank our OL 16th in pass protection and 14th overall, that have offered opinions that support what he is saying.

I, too, would like to see improvements made to our offensive line in the offseason. They're not our strongest position group. But they're NOT the primary cause of our offensive problems. An average offensive line shouldn't be giving up well above average sacks. Something else is going to have to change in the way Russell plays the position, whether that be changes he makes to his game, changes in offensive play design, or some combination of the two. Simply tinkering with the OL isn't going to fix the problem.

[trents]

I still say all the strife over his comments is way overblown and not nearly as big a thing to the team as it is to some fans and wonks that need to have something to write about.

Right on.

And I think RW's ability to see and quickly analyze what's happening all over the field is compromised by his stature when he drops back. When he is in motion that creates more viewing holes and helps him make better decisions. But as someone else said, he may have lost a little quickness so that doesn't work as well as it used to. I think a combination of changes need to be made that would include upgrading the O line, changing the schemes and RW becoming willing to throw the ball away a little more often to avoid getting sacks.

[obiken]

And I think RW's ability to see and quickly analyze what's happening all over the field is compromised by his stature when he drops back.

Okay if Russ is the problem then trade him.

[trents]

Okay if Russ is the problem then trade him.

Nobody is suggesting that. RW is still one of the top QBs in the league. But he has some weaknesses that he and the Hawks need to either improve upon or find ways to offset schematically.

[Aseahawkfan]

Rebuild the defense and defensive line. Then we see what happens.

[RiverDog]

And I think RW's ability to see and quickly analyze what's happening all over the field is compromised by his stature when he drops back.

Okay if Russ is the problem then trade him.

Russell is not THE problem. He's part of the problem, and as such, part of the solution.

No one here is trying to lay all the blame on Russell, and I don't think any of us would deny that he's the best QB our franchise has ever had. Speaking for myself, my big beef, of which you've taken up, is the thought that if we just fix this POS offensive line our problems will disappear.

[RiverDog]

Rebuild the defense and defensive line. Then we see what happens.

Just as Russell isn't the entire problem, nor is the defense all that ails us. We played some of the best defense in the 2nd half of the season as we've played in the past 7 years and it wasn't good enough.

[NorthHawk]

Iupati officially retired today, so the LG position will be between Phil Haynes and any other LG prospect we may draft or sign.

[TriCitySam]

[quote="RiverDog]No one here is trying to lay all the blame on Russell, and I don't think any of us would deny that he's the best QB our franchise has ever had. Speaking for myself, my big beef, of which you've taken up, is the thought that if we just fix this POS offensive line our problems will disappear.[/quote]

Agreed, the sack issue is multi-layered. OL, scheme and RW. We're pretty efficient when the ball gets away sub 2.5 seconds (76% completion), but drops dramatically after that. If you go to the Wyman and Bob podcast on 710, you can hear Moyer's comments in their entirety. I thought he was spot on.

[Aseahawkfan]

Just as Russell isn't the entire problem, nor is the defense all that ails us. We played some of the best defense in the 2nd half of the season as we've played in the past 7 years and it wasn't good enough.

And we started winning more as the defense played better. Pete Ball is not exciting, He's a defensive ball control coach without a strong, consistent defense. That's the system Russell is used to and we should get back to.

[obiken]

And we started winning more as the defense played better. Pete Ball is not exciting, He's a defensive ball control coach without a strong, consistent defense. That's the system Russell is used to and we should get back to.

We need to give Russ whatever he wants. You realize that 1/3 of the league has contacted the Hawks for a Russ trade? The starting price is 3 first rounders!!

[c_hawkbob]

We need to give Russ whatever he wants. You realize that 1/3 of the league has contacted the Hawks for a Russ trade? The starting price is 3 first rounders!!

Plus, as famously young Pete is for an old guy he still is not in a position to want to push control/alt/delete and start a rebuilding process at his age. There is just no realistic way in the world this is actually going to happen.

[NorthHawk]

I doubt it will be this year, but if Russ is adamant about wanting out then the team has to decide whether it's better to have a disgruntled QB on their roster or trade him
and get something for him. There was a story on PFT that said the Seahawks wanted 3 First round picks as a starting point so it would seem a line might have been drawn.
All it might take is an aggressive owner and a deal could be had - or at least discussed between team FO's.

[c_hawkbob]

if Russ is adamant about wanting out

There is zero indication that this is the case. It's a ridiculous extrapolation of what was actually said based much more on the media frenzy surrounding a single interview than on what was actually said in that interview.

[Aseahawkfan]

We need to give Russ whatever he wants. You realize that 1/3 of the league has contacted the Hawks for a Russ trade? The starting price is 3 first rounders!!

Pete and John need to get back to the formula that worked. They have lost their way in my opinion. When Pete and John got there, they relentlessly pursued talent and found tons of it in unexpected places. Now they try to trade for flashy pieces giving up draft capital hoping to sustain through flashy trades. They need to get back to their roots of sifting talent until they find the diamonds in the rough.

Pete's a defensive coach. Not some flashy offensive coach. He needs to get the defensive line rebuilt. Dominant defenses have strong D-lines. We're a defense first team. We have enough offensive pieces to win, we need a defense that enforces and dominates giving the offense more chances.

[Hawktawk]

Russ said what he said. What's been leaked about trades has been leaked

.Nobody has come to the microphone and said look media, stop selling copy. This is not happening .Nobody has absolutely squashed this.

Russ publicly said his stuff to the world to a media talking head. Carroll popped off after firing Schottie who reportedly felt handcuffed and couldn't wait to get out of town. He wasn't unemployed long either. Not a bad consolation prize working with Urban Meyer and Trevor Lawrence

A part of me says no way it happens, especially this year but this is truly an ugly episode and IMO at a minimum its a make it or break it year for this Seahawks, Russ Wilson marriage.And lets see what happens over the next few months.

If things go well and they win all will be forgotten. Another early flameout in the postseason or maybe staying home and its all over.

As it is the 3 #1s are something almost nobody could provide and then you look at JS record on first rounders. He should trade him for 20 3rd rounders

[curmudgeon]

When Pete and John got there, they relentlessly pursued talent and found tons of it in unexpected places.

Scot McGloughan was responsible for the lion’s share of the talent from the SB teams. He has been sorely missed!........

[obiken]

Russ said what he said. What's been leaked about trades has been leaked

.Nobody has come to the microphone and said look media, stop selling copy. This is not happening .Nobody has absolutely squashed this.

Russ publicly said his stuff to the world to a media talking head. Carroll popped off after firing Schottie who reportedly felt handcuffed and couldn't wait to get out of town. He wasn't unemployed long either. Not a bad consolation prize working with Urban Meyer and Trevor Lawrence

A part of me says no way it happens, especially this year but this is truly an ugly episode and IMO at a minimum its a make it or break it year for this Seahawks, Russ Wilson marriage.And lets see what happens over the next few months.

If things go well and they win all will be forgotten. Another early flameout in the postseason or maybe staying home and its all over.

As it is the 3 #1s are something almost nobody could provide and then you look at JS record on first rounders. He should trade him for 20 3rd rounders

Spot on HT, all of it!

[RiverDog]

A part of me says no way it (trading Russell) happens, especially this year but this is truly an ugly episode and IMO at a minimum its a make it or break it year for this Seahawks, Russ Wilson marriage. And lets see what happens over the next few months.

If things go well and they win all will be forgotten. Another early flameout in the postseason or maybe staying home and its all over.

This I agree with.

[NorthHawk]

The smoke that's been created the last 2 years is from Wilson's camp.
Last year it was let Russ cook, and he did until Pete pulled in the reins.
Now he's expressing his frustration with the Offense so he must be becoming impatient especially after seeing how the QBs in the SB are allowed to let it loose when he's held back.
If we don't accommodate him this season with a more wide open Offense, we have to trade him after it otherwise we will get only a 3rd round Comp pick when he leaves as a Free Agent.

[Hawk Sista]

I agree NH. I love RW, but I didn’t care for the contract negotiation year, the let Russ Cook barf, and the comments RW made on the DP Show. On the latter, one could hear in his voice that RW really wasn’t all that comfortable saying what he said. His agent is an ass, but at the end of the day, RW follows his lead. RW sees himself as a mogul and he’s building an empire. I mean really, “why not him?”

I hope he retires as a Hawk, but the longer the drip, drip, drip of the off-season chatter goes, it seems harder & harder to fathom. All said, I’m not in the locker room with him where he may well be loved by his peers. We have, however, seen evidence of this not being the case (Sherman, ADB, etc.) Were I Duane Brown, however, I’d pick up the phone and have a chat with the super star. Teams that pay one dude such a high percentage of the cap don’t win long term, usually.

As another add to Moyer’s comments... we all have eyes and we all see RW holding onto the ball. We also see him make some pretty amazing s*** out of absolutely nothing by hanging on to the ball those few ticks longer. Let’s not forget that. I think we would all (fans, coaches, teammates, media) be quicker to forgive were RW not so willing to toss his teammates under the bus.

[Aseahawkfan]

Russ said what he said. What's been leaked about trades has been leaked

.Nobody has come to the microphone and said look media, stop selling copy. This is not happening .Nobody has absolutely squashed this.

Russ publicly said his stuff to the world to a media talking head. Carroll popped off after firing Schottie who reportedly felt handcuffed and couldn't wait to get out of town. He wasn't unemployed long either. Not a bad consolation prize working with Urban Meyer and Trevor Lawrence

A part of me says no way it happens, especially this year but this is truly an ugly episode and IMO at a minimum its a make it or break it year for this Seahawks, Russ Wilson marriage.And lets see what happens over the next few months.

If things go well and they win all will be forgotten. Another early flameout in the postseason or maybe staying home and its all over.

As it is the 3 #1s are something almost nobody could provide and then you look at JS record on first rounders. He should trade him for 20 3rd rounders

As far as I know Pete, John, and Russ never quash media stories. Pete doesn't care what they're yapping about. He cares about what's going on in house and the media and the rest of them can go F themselves. Same reason why no one ever really guesses their draft picks. Seahawks are a tight ship as far as leaks, which is why most of this is just made up garbage until I hear it from someone official.

NFL media circles around Seattle hoping to find stories and they're usually wrong because Pete, John, and Russ don't talk to them other than to give them very general answers during interviews. No depth. No clear answers. Just mind your business sports media, you get nothing but generic popcorn answers.

[RiverDog]

As far as I know Pete, John, and Russ never quash media stories. Pete doesn't care what they're yapping about. He cares about what's going on in house and the media and the rest of them can go F themselves. Same reason why no one ever really guesses their draft picks. Seahawks are a tight ship as far as leaks, which is why most of this is just made up garbage until I hear it from someone official.

NFL media circles around Seattle hoping to find stories and they're usually wrong because Pete, John, and Russ don't talk to them other than to give them very general answers during interviews. No depth. No clear answers. Just mind your business sports media, you get nothing but generic popcorn answers.

This isn't just some garden variety story that the media concocted. It's a story coming out of the mouth of our franchise quarterback and the most valuable football commodity that Pete/John have ever had. Sure, the media has put their usual spin on it, but there's no denying that Russell said what he said.

The other thing here is the timing. It's the beginning of the free agency season, a virtual dating session where looks matter. These 'rumors', regardless if there is any truth to them or not, is not going to help our efforts.

[c_hawkbob]

"Russell said what he said" ... like that means anything. He never said he wanted out, never said he wanted to be traded, never said he was unhappy, those ARE all media constructs. All Russ said, and in answer to a question, was that he though he gets hit too much and "we" (he expressly included himself) need to get better.

Next time you feel compelled to say "he said what he said" just use the actual offending direct quote instead.

[RiverDog]

Next time you feel compelled to say "he said what he said" just use the actual offending direct quote instead.

Thanks for the advice.

[NorthHawk]

Russell, through his agent and in interviews has made it clear he's not happy.
Last year it was the let Russ Cook theme that indicated he wanted a better Offense and he made it clear he wanted more talent around him. We heard about Antonio Brown, but the FO seemed to not
want to go in that direction. However Russ let it be known he would have wanted him. Then our Offense was playing very well with Wilson playing great and he had a bad game. Then Pete shut down
the Offense. After that Russ's game went downhill. Now this year he's made it known through the same sources that he's not happy with the Offense and is considering moving on when his contract
is done. The FO knows this and can't stick their head in the sand hoping it will go away because it won't and if it isn't addressed or if Pete says his Offense stays as it is, then we will lose Russ at the
end of his contract and get a 3rd round pick the following year. So if we're not going to change the Offense, then we should trade him and get a haul of draft picks maybe along with a player or two
to mitigate in some way the loss of a franchise QB. When a player - in any pro sport - isn't happy and is indicating they might want out, they make these types of noises and it's noteworthy that the
discussion of our FO has gone from not trading him to at least 3 first round picks.
I'm sue Carroll knows this and maybe the change from Schottenheimer to the new OC is part of addressing it. I think we all hope that's the case and part of the solution, but getting more talent around
Wilson has been a theme for a couple of years now. If they don't deliver then Russ is probably gone next year.

[c_hawkbob]

Russell, through his agent and in interviews has made it clear he's not happy.

I disagree. I know Russ didn't say it, you're going to have to point me to a direct quote from his agent saying he's unhappy here. All of this just extreme extrapolations by talking heads trying to generate clicks.

[Hawktawk]

It’s naiiive wishful thinking to minimize the comments made by Russ , the things said and not said both by he and the team . When asked if he’s available he said that’s a Seahawks question although he has a no trade clause .

Saying you’re tired of getting hit so much you are throwing the middle of the pack grade wise line directly under the bus . They fight their ass off harder than any position on the field trying to protect a guy without pocket discipline . I’m not sure all the facts with Iupatis retirement but maybe getting thrown under the bus by the most difficult guy to pass block for in the league was a factor . Good luck getting top flight lineman excited to come here .

Last years “ we need more dudes “ comments tell his teammates he went to war with all year they aren’t good enough . This team without enough guys has won 23 regular season games last 2 years and their season has ended with poor performances in the wild card or divisional . In almost every loss Russ played poorly , especially early in the games making the hole too big to climb out of . Vs the Rams minus Donald there was no furious comeback attempt even , just dreadful play by the team and especially the QB. 11-27 with a pick 6 with Donald on the bench the whole second half does not lie . Then to absolutely download like this . It’s not a good situation .