Offensive Line study since 2012

[Agent 86]

Good article I came across that I know is always a hot topic on these boards, I thought this would generate some more discussion. This one is dedicated to Obi


By Michael-Shawn Dugar

One of the underlying themes in Russell Wilson’s beef with the Seahawks is a lack of faith in the team’s ability to put a competent offensive line in front of him. By admitting he is “frustrated with being hit too much,” and essentially using the league-high 394 sacks he has taken since 2012 to drive that point home, Wilson is implying the offensive line bears the brunt of the blame.

With that in mind, let’s take a look back at some of the offensive line transactions since Wilson became the starter as a rookie in August 2012. I’m excluding draft picks and free-agent signings prior to that point since the team didn’t enter the offseason (or the draft) with Wilson slotted to be the man under center.

Seattle OL draft picks (since 2013)

2013 - Ryan Seymour (7th) 220th
2014 - Justin Britt (2nd) 64th
2014 - Garrett Scott (6th) 199th
2015 - Terry Poole (4th) 130th
2015 - Mark Glowinski (4th) 134th
2016 - Germain Ifedi (1st) 31st
2016 - Rees Odhiambo (3rd) 97th
2016 - Joey Hunt (6th) 215th
2017 - Ethan Pocic (2nd) 58th
2017 - Justin Senior (6th) 210th
2018 - Jamarco Jones (5th) 168th
2019 - Phil Haynes (4th) 124th
2020 - Damien Lewis (3rd) 69th

The players above don’t have positions next to their names because that has been part of Seattle’s evaluation of offensive linemen over the years, particularly under former OL coach Tom Cable, who also had personnel control. Seattle notoriously valued versatility in their lineman prospects, guys who can play multiple positions. While this may work for depth, this approach has its drawbacks.

“When you draft guys like that, they never become great at one thing,” said Ray Roberts, a former Seahawks offensive lineman who now works for the team’s radio network doing pregame and postgame coverage. “That diminishes the effectiveness of your offensive line.”

Of the linemen Seattle has drafted and played meaningful snaps, only Damien Lewis has come in as a rookie and been assigned his same position from college. After two seasons playing right guard at LSU, Lewis played almost exclusively at right guard in 2020, save for one game at center as a third-string injury replacement. Lewis graded out as one of the best rookie linemen Seattle has drafted since 2013. Germain Ifedi, the highest-drafted lineman in that time frame, played right guard as a rookie before sliding to right tackle for the remainder of his four-year rookie deal. Ifedi is largely considered a bust.

“When you look at (Ifedi’s) film when he played tackle in college, he was athletic, he used his hands more and was more stout on the edge,” Roberts said. “Well, then they put him at guard. That’s a totally different mindset at guard. The space is different, the way things happen is faster. Then they put him back at tackle where it’s a totally different vibe because you have more space to work with and you have to adjust to that, and your confidence has already taken a hit.

“They valued versatility over mastery at the offensive line position,” Roberts added, “and to me, that makes it really hard to be a really strong, effective offensive line because dudes are constantly moving, you don’t know where you’re going to play.”

The strategy hasn’t been all bad, though. Justin Britt played offensive tackle at Missouri and spent his rookie season at right tackle, where he also graded out well. He was better at run blocking than pass blocking but that was the case with Lewis as well, and his rookie year is widely considered a success. Britt moved to left guard and regressed in his second season before finding his footing at center in 2016, resulting in a career year in which he was named a Pro Bowl alternate. He remained there until he was cut in 2020. Ethan Pocic played guard (sparingly) his first three years in the league before moving to center, his best position at LSU. He had a career year in 2020 and last week became only the second lineman Seattle has drafted and signed to a second contract since 2013. Britt was the first.

Regardless of position, Seattle has also had issues getting its draft picks to stay on the field. Ryan Seymour, Garrett Scott, Terry Poole and Justin Senior never played regular-season games with the Seahawks. Mark Glowinski had one full year as a starter. Jamarco Jones and Phil Haynes are still early in their careers and had their rookie seasons derailed by injury, so it may not be entirely fair to evaluate their on-field capabilities. Jones has played well as a backup guard but his stints at tackle – the position he played at Ohio State – have left a lot to be desired. Of the 12 linemen drafted between 2013-19, only two (Britt and Ifedi) spent multiple seasons as full-time starters.

Losing Russell Okung in free agency after the 2015 season put Seattle in the market for a left tackle, the line’s most important position. Ifedi was drafted that spring to play on the right side and Rees Odhiambo, a tackle at Boise State, was never up for the task. Neither was George Fant, an undrafted rookie that year who wound up the starting left tackle for most of the 2016 season. When Fant blew out his knee in August 2017 the team called on Odhiambo to be his replacement. Seattle traded for left tackle Duane Brown two months later.

The Seahawks’ draft picks haven’t had much luck away from Seattle, either. Ifedi has signed a pair of one-year deals with the Bears, the most recent contract worth $4.25 million to play guard. Odhiambo hasn’t made a start since 2017. Joey Hunt hasn’t made one since 2019. Britt looked poised to anchor the line for years to come when he became the first O-line draftee to sign a multiyear extension with the team, inking a three-year, $27 million extension in August 2017. A torn ACL in October 2019 ended his career with the Seahawks. He missed the entire 2020 season and recently signed a one-year deal worth $3.2 million with Houston.

The only draftee to be valued by another club is Glowinski, who was claimed via waivers by Indianapolis in 2017 and eventually signed a three-year, $16.2 million contract with the Colts in January 2019. He started all 16 games for Indy in 2020. Fant, who wasn’t drafted, signed a three-year, $30 million deal with the Jets last offseason and made 14 starts primarily at right tackle in 2020. This after Fant spent the 2018 and ’19 seasons as a part-time, swing tackle in Seattle.

Pro Football Focus grades are not the only way to evaluate offensive line play, but they do serve as a useful tool. The highest single-season grades for offensive linemen drafted by Seattle belong to Britt in 2016 (77.0) and 2014 (71.6), and Lewis in 2020 (70.2). Four of the top five grades in that span belong to Britt. As for pass-blocking grades, the top three spots belong to Britt in 2016 (77.9) and 2017 (74.4), and Ifedi in 2018 (71.5). No other qualifying player graded higher than 63.

Using Pro Football Reference’s Weighted Career Approximate Value metric, Britt (41) is the best lineman Seattle has drafted, followed by Ifedi (34), Glowinski (28) and Pocic (15). After playing just one season, Lewis (9) is sixth.

The draft isn’t the only place to acquire offensive linemen but because of the rookie wage scale it is the best place to acquire talent at a low cost. This examination doesn’t account for waiver claims, trades and the players already on the roster when Wilson became the starter, but since finding a starting quarterback is so critical when building a team, it’s relevant to look at what the team managed to do after landing its franchise guy.

Since then, the Seahawks have yet to draft an offensive lineman named to the Pro Bowl roster; they’ve selected only one lineman capable of being a consistent pass blocker; they felt only one of their draftees was worth locking up on a long-term deal; and upon leaving Seattle only one draftee was perceived to have long-term value.

Free agency hasn’t been much better. Seattle is notoriously frugal this time of year, reluctant to hand out lucrative long-term deals at any position, including the offensive line. The Seahawks have given just four multiyear free agency contracts to offensive linemen since naming Wilson the starter: Right tackle Jamarcus Webb signed a two-year, $5.7 million deal in 2016; right guard D.J. Fluker inked a two-year, $6 million contract in 2019; center B.J. Finney signed a two-year, $8 million deal in 2020; and right tackle Brandon Shell signed a two-year deal worth $9 million in 2020. The largest average annual salary given to any free-agent lineman was the one-year, $8 million deal for left guard Luke Joeckel in 2017.

“They’ve done too much bargain shopping,” Roberts said, “Then you put that on top of the guys that you’ve drafted to try and play multiple positions, and it just didn’t make for a good way to build an offensive line.”

Free agency is often the time when good players get paid like great players, so Seattle’s unwillingness to consistently spend big this time of year is probably for the best. From a team-building perspective, underpaying is better than overpaying. But the key is to have these moves pay off — especially if you’re not nailing picks in the draft. And when it comes to the offensive line, Seattle’s results have been underwhelming, to say the least.

Of the players to sign multiyear deals, Webb, Fluker and Finney lasted just one season. Webb and Finney didn’t actually make it a full season; Webb was cut midway through 2016 and Finney was traded to Cincinnati after Week 7 of 2020. Shell is the lone bright spot, and the only player projected to finish out his contract. Shell was a steady right tackle and it wasn’t until his injury late in the year that the line started to fall apart. In 2020 Shell had the highest pass-block grade of any free-agent lineman signed in the Wilson era. The one-year rentals netted solid efforts from Fluker (2018), left guard Mike Iupati (2019 and ’20) and left guard J.R. Sweezy, who was a Pro Bowl alternate in 2018. But the Tom Cable era signings included players like Wade Smith, Steve Schilling Jahri Evans, Joeckel and Oday Aboushi, a crop of linemen that either never made the team or never made a positive impact on the pass protection.

Seattle last had a top-10 pass block group by PFF in Wilson’s rookie year, when the team was among the top spenders on offensive linemen and fresh off of using first-round picks on offensive tackles Russell Okung (sixth overall in 2010) and James Carpenter (25th overall in 2011). Since then, the Seahawks have earned a top-20 pass-block grade just twice and only once had an above-average pass-block grade — which was this past season.

Seattle made just one significant offensive line move this offseason, trading a fifth-round pick for Las Vegas guard Gabe Jackson. If Jackson plays at the level he’s capable, then the Seahawks may potentially have a top-10 unit in front of Wilson. That would likely also mean that Seattle’s two best offensive line transactions since drafting Wilson came via trade: first for Brown, who is still playing at a high level, and then for Jackson, who was once of the highest-paid guards in the league. That’d be fitting for the Seahawks since their track record in free agency and the draft has not been their strong suit when it comes to fielding a front line.

[NorthHawk]

Interesting article.
We talked a lot about this over the years but to hear it from a former player tends to give our thoughts some credence.

However, the article didn't mention James Carpenter who I think is still playing albeit at G and not Tackle.

[Aseahawkfan]

This is a very limited article. It doesn't discuss how Russell plays including how long Russ holds onto the ball, that Seattle committed to the scramble offense, and that we're committed to the run and evaluate run blocking ability as well as pass blocking. Russ doesn't play in a traditional fashion. He's not Brees or Brady. He can pocket pass, but Russ likes to extend plays with his legs. Pete has always told his O-coordinators to build that element of the game into the offense. It skews things when pass blocking.

[NorthHawk]

He’s not talking about Wilson, he’s talking about how the OL is being shortchanged by bottom feeding and the attempt by
Cable to change player positions and how it does a disservice to the players. We discussed this at the time and it was expressed by
some of us posters that maybe it would be better if they drafted players who played the same position at a high level in college
instead of moving linemen around and converting DL to OL.

[Aseahawkfan]

He’s not talking about Wilson, he’s talking about how the OL is being shortchanged by bottom feeding and the attempt by
Cable to change player positions and how it does a disservice to the players. We discussed this at the time and it was expressed by
some of us posters that maybe it would be better if they drafted players who played the same position at a high level in college
instead of moving linemen around and converting DL to OL.

They did that a few times. It was hardly a strategy. We spent a lot of draft capital on the O-line. Players didn't work out.

This trying to rewrite history doesn't change all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders we spent on O-line to build it. What can you do when they are no good?

Our O-line might look a great deal better if we had an offense that valued getting the ball out faster rather than relying on big plays on scrambles. I'm not sure Brees or Brady's O-lines are much better. I think those O-coordinators developed offenses that valued getting the ball out quickly, not hoping your QB could scramble around and make a big play. When your QB leaves the pocket, all bets are off as to how well things will go with any attempt at pass blocking.

Fact is we need more quick hit plays on offense more than a better O-line. We gotta be able to hit and go.

[RiverDog]

Excellent article. I never liked the way they drafted offensive linemen. There's an old saying that applies here: "Jack of all trades, master of none."

I, too, thought it curious that they omitted James Carpenter. Outside of Okung, he was the highest drafted offensive lineman in the Pete Carroll era, and they could not have seriously felt that he had the ability to play offensive tackle in the NFL. He was essentially drafted as a guard. But if you're going to draft a guard, then draft a guard, not someone that was destined to bust as a tackle.

[NorthHawk]

They did that a few times. It was hardly a strategy. We spent a lot of draft capital on the O-line. Players didn't work out.

This trying to rewrite history doesn't change all the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rounders we spent on O-line to build it. What can you do when they are no good?

The article talked about taking players and trying to move them around and become proficient at all positions or play
at spots they never played before at a high level. It’s not rewriting history because that’s what they did and even if you
use high picks for players, moving them to unfamiliar positions doesn’t help and probably hinders their development.
We consistently drafted players along the OL and either failed to develop them or it seems often stunted their growth
in the name of versatility. The result was a sub par OL that was in a year after year state of flux. This might be the
first time in a number of years where only 1 change is being made. That says a lot about how poorly the constant
problems have been addressed. They even traded away Unger one year without having a reasonable replacement
at Center. That shows either they don’t understand how to make a good OL or more probably they undervalue it.
And it may be a large part of Wilson’s discontent after 10 years in that situation.

[Aseahawkfan]

The article talked about taking players and trying to move them around and become proficient at all positions or play
at spots they never played before at a high level. It’s not rewriting history because that’s what they did and even if you
use high picks for players, moving them to unfamiliar positions doesn’t help and probably hinders their development.
We consistently drafted players along the OL and either failed to develop them or it seems often stunted their growth
in the name of versatility. The result was a sub par OL that was in a year after year state of flux. This might be the
first time in a number of years where only 1 change is being made. That says a lot about how poorly the constant
problems have been addressed. They even traded away Unger one year without having a reasonable replacement
at Center. That shows either they don’t understand how to make a good OL or more probably they undervalue it.
And it may be a large part of Wilson’s discontent after 10 years in that situation.

Did this article list how many players have switched from the position they played in college to a different position in the NFL across all teams? As far as I recall, this is not an uncommon practice. There are times when some guy excelled as a right tackle in college, but moved to guard in the NFL. O-lines have injurie all the times. You need players that can shift. I would rather see how many O-lineman from college shifted to new positions once they got to the NFL, not just Seattle.

Once again, no mention of Russell not being a pocket passer. Once you start running, pass blocking is all done. They don't undervalue the O-line. There is no evidence the O-line is playing a role in our success. O-line ratings have a lot of different factors in them, how you build an offense is one of those factors. We have had a very dynamic offense under Russell. I don't know how many times Pete Carroll has to get up there and say, "Russell's ability to scramble is going to be part of our offense. We're going to let him extend plays with his legs." Once your coach announces that, then you deal with the consequences which is more hits on the QB, more sacks, holding on to the ball longer, and pass blocking pretty much being something that can't be maintained. You think these O-line guys should be trying to keep up with Russell running while trying to block?

Why can't Seattle fans analyze how their team works? They have a unique QB who does things differently than what is standard. It leads to a very difficult time pass blocking for an O-line. It's very easy to see. Yet you have these Seattle fans who want this highly rated pass blocking O-line when their QB is anything but a standard pocket passer who literally holds onto the ball longer than any QB in the league and extends plays with his legs all the time. If you can't see by this time a decade later that Russell Wilson isn't Drew Brees, Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning, then you're never gonna see it.

But for someone like me who actually remembers Pete Carroll specifically saying, "We're going to work Russell's scrambling ability into the offense." Who hears the coaches talk about scramble drills. Who watches Russell hold onto the ball longer than any QB in the league and run around trying to make a play outside the pocket, while his O-line guys don't even know where he is, then you're not that worried about the pass blocking ability of the O-line.

Run blocking is a better measure for our O-line. We run in a more traditional manner on offense. But our passing game is Russell Wilson. He isn't a pocket passer. When Russell is gone, we'll notice it unless we find another Russell. Russell is his own thing. I don't think anyone in the league plays like Russell. They have Russell moments, but as far as their overall games go no one else is Russell Wilson. I don't know how many practice scramble drills like we do where we literally expect our QB to make magic happen on the fly.

[TriCitySam]

The article points out early that Tom Cable had a hand in most of this - and I've long been critical of his drafting and coaching. We've done better since he left, with limited picks and I believe found a real winner in Lewis. We'll see how they do going forward, but I'm hopeful.

[NorthHawk]

Yah, they relied on Cable to turn coal into diamonds which he couldn't do.
The late round DL picks trying to play Offense and as Roberts said about developing a solid OL

They valued versatility over mastery at the offensive line position,” Roberts added, “and to me, that makes it really hard to be a really strong, effective offensive line because dudes are constantly moving, you don’t know where you’re going to play.

He went on further to say about drafting for versatility:

When you draft guys like that, they never become great at one thing That diminishes the effectiveness of your offensive line

He doesn't talk about the changing OL play at the college level where guys like Ifedi and other who come out of todays passing Offenses and rarely use a 3 point stance now having to learn that in the NFL.
We talked about all these things and more around 2015 and how the OL was regressing. It's too bad our FO didn't see it, too.

[TriCitySam]

We talked about all these things and more around 2015 and how the OL was regressing. It's too bad our FO didn't see it, too.

I will say this, there are those GM's who draft the guys THEY want - and sometimes the coaches aren't happy about it (Parcells: "If you want me to cook, let me buy the groceries"). JS has been a guy that has said "tell me what you want and we'll go find it". I've always appreciated that attitude (although he does lobby hard for guys he really likes - as in RW). In Cable's case they gave him a lot of latitude in picking guys to develop - and it didn't work out. I know a couple years ago Ray Roberts proclaimed that Cable ruined Ifedi by making him play a style that didn't fit is abilities (his grade with PFF did improve with the move to Chicago).

[NorthHawk]

Here's a comment from Kevin Mawae on putting players along the line in different positions.

Assistant offensive line coach and Pro Football Hall of Famer Kevin Mawae said that moving pieces around on the offensive line isn’t as easy as Castonzo may have made it sound earlier this year.

“Not specifically about this team but just in general, it’s not as easy as everybody thinks it is,” Mawae said, via Mike Chappell of WXIN. “Everybody is like, ‘Just plug them in at guard.’ Well, that just doesn’t happen like that. I think there are unique tools and attributes that a guard has to have versus a tackle and a center, and just to plug and play is not the right way to go about it. You want to put the best five guys on the field talent-wise, but also you want to put the best five combination out there.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2 ... e-on-line/

I think that was Cables failing and our FO as well in not calling him on it early.

[Agent 86]

Yah, they relied on Cable to turn coal into diamonds which he couldn't do.
The late round DL picks trying to play Offense and as Roberts said about developing a solid OL

They valued versatility over mastery at the offensive line position,” Roberts added, “and to me, that makes it really hard to be a really strong, effective offensive line because dudes are constantly moving, you don’t know where you’re going to play.

He went on further to say about drafting for versatility:

When you draft guys like that, they never become great at one thing That diminishes the effectiveness of your offensive line

He doesn't talk about the changing OL play at the college level where guys like Ifedi and other who come out of todays passing Offenses and rarely use a 3 point stance now having to learn that in the NFL.
We talked about all these things and more around 2015 and how the OL was regressing. It's too bad our FO didn't see it, too.

And if you were the starting QB for 5-6 years and continually saw this was the way things were being done, wouldn't you be frustrated? We all know alot of the sacks RW takes are because of his ability to try to extend plays, but nonetheless, alot of sacks are because the talent on the O-line was never there and they didn't appear to make it a priority. I will say there wasn't many of those draft picks that deserved 2nd contracts that they ended up getting from other teams.

Drafting and developing has been an issue, probalby moreso the developing. But the drafting raised questions as well based on what the article quotes. If you don't think that plays into RW's frustrations and caused him to publicly call them out, then I think you are missing something.

I will also say I never really believed RW wanted out, and that whole thing was overblown, but definitely admit that something isn't right there, he for the first time called the team out publicly, and I think had every right to do it. If anything, this franchise was in need of a shakeup, and that was it. RW took things into his own hands and has now made everyone accountable, himself moreso than anyone. I am truly excited with Waldron there, with what Russ said publicly, with what Pete has said publicly, what Wilson is going to do this year. He put a bit of a target on himself, and in my experience playing sports, the few times I did that in front of my team, I played my best ball.

[NorthHawk]

I don't think this is over and it's probably Wilson's last year here unless Pete gives up governance of the Offense.

Regarding the OL, they did throw significant resources at it, but they didn't allow the players to develop at one position before moving them around the line.
Cables system was fairly complex in that it was a hybrid of drive blocking and zone blocking. That's a lot for a player who like Ifedi for example came from a
spread type "Air Raid" Offense where he rarely even put his hand in the dirt. So he had to learn how to play in a pro system, learn both drive and zone blocking
techniques, get accustomed to the speed of the NFL game and power of defenders he never experienced before not to mention stunts and blitzes, all in front
of a QB who unlike the Air Raid system holds the ball a lot longer in an Offense that is not a quick, time dependent passing game. Then they added to it him
having to learn another position at the same time which has a different skill set and responsibilities. It's no wonder that he and Carpenter failed at Tackle even
if Carpenter was more prepared physically for Guard and came from a Pro set Offense in Alabama. That's all on Pete for not stepping in and saying stop it and
let the kid develop at one position before moving him around.

[c_hawkbob]

We'll see how Waldron does. They let Russ have a hand in his hiring, it could well be that it will indeed more Shane and Russ than Pete this year (allowing of course that they still maintain a strong ground game).

[NorthHawk]

We'll see how Waldron does. They let Russ have a hand in his hiring, it could well be that it will indeed more Shane and Russ than Pete this year (allowing of course that they still maintain a strong ground game).

I hope you are right, but I just get the feeling that they have 'crossed the Rubicon' in the relationship between QB and HC.

[c_hawkbob]

I see it as about 50/50 right now.