Russell Wilson

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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:21 pm

TriCitySam wrote:Wow, stunning to consider the Hawks performance as "mediocre". 32 teams, only 5 with a better record than Pete has delivered over the past 5 years, and only 4 over the past 10 years. Mediocre only fits if you're completely unrealistic, which many fans are unfortunately.


MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I get that argument, but even I look through the lens of getting back to the Super Bowl. Pete and John didn't make the right moves after that Super Bowl loss. The dynamic changed a lot. Moving on from Wilson while getting a king's ransom in draft capital in the process renewed some of my faith that they are getting back to what made them successful Super Bowl contenders, but, as I stated in my previous post, they have to get a legit young quarterback in next year's draft.


Yeah, me, too. Things were never the same after that loss in SB 49, and now we're living on past accolades and remember when's.

I was hoping that we'd land one of the top QB's in last year's draft, but JS seems to have a good eye for quarterbacks, so I'll accept our decision not to trade up and snag one like the Panthers did. Besides, Witherspoon seems to be a nice little consolation prize, at least so far.

I don't really want to debate the future of our HC this time of year, so I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say that I'm not so easily mollified by .500ish teams as many are. I want more.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:22 pm

trents wrote:49er's had a shutdown secondary last night. Denver just did not have any open receivers last night on down field routes and we all know that Russ' bread and butter has always been the long ball.


49'ers? :D
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:43 pm

Stream Hawk wrote:Right. But you opened with “I’d keep Russ over Geno”. So I am pretty sure that contradicts everything you’ve said prior.

But I agree with your last few statements. Dude is done.


I really need to check my posts before making some of them. I type so fast, sometimes I just shoot it out and hit post. I meant Geno over Russ.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:46 pm

trents wrote:49er's had a shutdown secondary last night. Denver just did not have any open receivers last night on down field routes and we all know that Russ' bread and butter has always been the long ball.


I know you meant Chiefs. I agree. They couldn't get open. I don't know if Chiefs CBs are that good or Denver's receivers that bad. But Russ put the ball in their hands a few times, but they had no separation and easily got beat other than Sutton on that last pretty TD catch.

Russ's receivers are trash. It don't matter at this point. Russ isn't getting younger. His team isn't good. They don't have the draft capital to fix all the problems fast enough to get anything out of Russ. He looks slow, lost, and defeated.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Aseahawkfan » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:49 pm

TriCitySam wrote:Wow, stunning to consider the Hawks performance as "mediocre". 32 teams, only 5 with a better record than Pete has delivered over the past 5 years, and only 4 over the past 10 years. Mediocre only fits if you're completely unrealistic, which many fans are unfortunately.


Get back to me when we hit the hard part of our schedule and when we win a playoff game and look like a legitimate contender again.

Pete's a defensive coach, yet his defense's are underperforming his offenses with seeming no end in sight of the defensive mediocrity or worse.

If you're content just barely making the playoffs, not really contending, and watching Geno play efficient, game manager ball while the defense gives up the lead to even halfway decent teams and gets crushed by quality teams, then I guess we can keep going with Pete.

I'd like to contend again before I die. I'm old now, so I don't have time for this wheel spinning. I don't feel like watching DK and Tyler and all the young guys we just got age out while we stand pat with the same head coach who can't put the pieces together like he did when he first arrived.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby trents » Fri Oct 13, 2023 10:02 pm

I know you meant Chiefs. I agree. They couldn't get open. I don't know if Chiefs CBs are that good or Denver's receivers that bad. But Russ put the ball in their hands a few times, but they had no separation and easily got beat other than Sutton on that last pretty TD catch.

Russ's receivers are trash. It don't matter at this point. Russ isn't getting younger. His team isn't good. They don't have the draft capital to fix all the problems fast enough to get anything out of Russ. He looks slow, lost, and defeated.


Yep, I meant Chiefs. Thanks for catching that. You did better that the Denver receivers.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:43 am

Back to topic, sort of.

One of the things that disappointed me was Sean Payton's very public, corrosive remarks about the coaching job done by his predecessor, Nathanial Hackett, that in my opinion were completely uncalled for:

In an expansive mood, Payton called the work Nathaniel Hackett and his staff did with the 2022 Broncos "one of the worst coaching jobs in the history of the NFL" and said there were "20 dirty hands" around quarterback Russell Wilson's career-worst season that included just 16 touchdown passes and a league-high 55 sacks.

Ultimately, Payton summed it up with "everything I heard about last season, we're doing the opposite."

"It doesn't happen often where an NFL team or organization gets embarrassed," Payton told USA Today. "And that happened here. Part of it was their own fault, relative to spending so much [expletive] time trying to win the offseason -- the PR, the pomp and circumstance, marching people around and all this stuff.


I lost a lot of respect for Payton when he made those remarks. I don't care what your profession is, you simply do not go public with those kinds of critical comments about, in this case, a fellow NFL coach or coaches. Whether you're a teacher, a doctor, a lawyer, or whatever, you treat your profession like a brotherhood. Well, I suppose that you can exempt politicians and professional wrestlers from that statement, but you get my point.

The other thing he did is that by opening his cake hole, he's set himself up for some very harsh, embarrassing criticism. If he doesn't start winning soon, his remarks are going to be thrown back in his face. Through the first 5 weeks of the 2023 season, at 1-4 Payton has a worse w/l record than Hackett had (2-3) with the same team last season.

Just another act in the drama that's playing out with Russell and the Broncos this season. Oh, and we do have their 3rd round draft pick this year, so even though we don't have as much riding on their outcome as we did last season, there's still a practical reason to root for them to lose.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby trents » Mon Nov 20, 2023 5:19 pm

RW seems to have righted the ship. Vintage RW yesterday against a surging Vikings team and the Denver defense came to play. It's obvious that Russ has lost a step but he can still work magic sometimes and he seems to have found a big play mate in Courtland Sutton. Sutton is a stud. I had my doubts about the Broncos ever getting back on track and some media comments made by Shawn Payton early on after his hire didn't bode well. But Payton seems to have pulled them together. The Vikings' Joshua Dobbs seems to be a late bloomer real deal.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Nov 20, 2023 9:24 pm

trents wrote:RW seems to have righted the ship. Vintage RW yesterday against a surging Vikings team and the Denver defense came to play. It's obvious that Russ has lost a step but he can still work magic sometimes and he seems to have found a big play mate in Courtland Sutton. Sutton is a stud. I had my doubts about the Broncos ever getting back on track and some media comments made by Shawn Payton early on after his hire didn't bode well. But Payton seems to have pulled them together. The Vikings' Joshua Dobbs seems to be a late bloomer real deal.


Some of those passes are vintage Russ escaping at the last minute to place a dime where only the receiver can get it. They need some more pieces in Denver, but Payton looks to have the team moving in a more positive direction.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Tue Nov 21, 2023 4:08 am

trents wrote:RW seems to have righted the ship. Vintage RW yesterday against a surging Vikings team and the Denver defense came to play. It's obvious that Russ has lost a step but he can still work magic sometimes and he seems to have found a big play mate in Courtland Sutton. Sutton is a stud. I had my doubts about the Broncos ever getting back on track and some media comments made by Shawn Payton early on after his hire didn't bode well. But Payton seems to have pulled them together. The Vikings' Joshua Dobbs seems to be a late bloomer real deal.


Aseahawkfan wrote:Some of those passes are vintage Russ escaping at the last minute to place a dime where only the receiver can get it. They need some more pieces in Denver, but Payton looks to have the team moving in a more positive direction.


I'm not quite ready to pronounce him rehabilitated. But there's no doubt that both he and the Broncos are moving in the right direction as they've now won 4 straight after losing 5 of their first 6, which includes a couple of good teams in the Chiefs and Bills.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Nov 21, 2023 8:14 am

Another comeback win for Wilson. He's made an art of it during his career, but it's taken some time for him to develop the necessary rapport with a WR to get to this point.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby 4XPIPS » Sun Nov 26, 2023 3:43 pm

Here are my thoughts on Beast Mode and Russell Wilson

In the shadows of the Seahawks' success lies a tale of cover-ups and the unraveling of a once-dominant team. The year 2009 marked a turning point with the abrupt departure of Jim Mora and the controversial recruitment of Pete Carroll from USC. As Carroll assumed dual roles of head coach and executive vice president, a power dynamic was established, leaving John Schneider seemingly in an advisory position.

The NFC West title in 2010, secured with a lackluster 7-9 record, masked deeper issues. The subsequent 2011 season, led by quarterback Tarvaris Jackson, exposed offensive struggles, unable to read defenses, stuck to his first reads, someone we know? However, the arrival of Russell Wilson in 2012 ignited a seismic shift, bringing a dynamic playmaker to the forefront.

As Wilson dazzled with his rookie heroics, the cracks in the team's foundation became apparent. The offensive line, a perennial weak link, relied on Wilson's elusive abilities and Marshawn Lynch's bruising runs to compensate. Yet, the crime within this narrative lies in the failure to fortify the offensive line and adapt to the changing dynamics.

The departure of Beastmode left Wilson to shoulder the burden, revealing the team's dependence on their star quarterback. As Wilson's concerns about the offensive line went unaddressed, the team's fortunes took a downturn in the post-Russell era.

Now, in the aftermath of Wilson's departure, the Seahawks find themselves struggling once again. The 2022 season finished at 9-8, and signs point to a regression, echoing the pre-Wilson era. With the riches acquired from the Russell trade, expectations were high, yet the team appears trapped in a cycle of mediocrity.

This is not merely a John Schneider issue, but a reflection of Pete Carroll's inability to build a complete team without a superstar to mask deficiencies. As the Seahawks navigate a post-Russell era, the question remains: Can they draft another dynamic QB and find a stud running back to recreate the magic of the early Wilson years, or is the organization destined to remain in the shadows of its past success?
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Sun Nov 26, 2023 5:29 pm

4XPIPS wrote:Here are my thoughts on Beast Mode and Russell Wilson

In the shadows of the Seahawks' success lies a tale of cover-ups and the unraveling of a once-dominant team. The year 2009 marked a turning point with the abrupt departure of Jim Mora and the controversial recruitment of Pete Carroll from USC. As Carroll assumed dual roles of head coach and executive vice president, a power dynamic was established, leaving John Schneider seemingly in an advisory position.

The NFC West title in 2010, secured with a lackluster 7-9 record, masked deeper issues. The subsequent 2011 season, led by quarterback Tarvaris Jackson, exposed offensive struggles, unable to read defenses, stuck to his first reads, someone we know? However, the arrival of Russell Wilson in 2012 ignited a seismic shift, bringing a dynamic playmaker to the forefront.

As Wilson dazzled with his rookie heroics, the cracks in the team's foundation became apparent. The offensive line, a perennial weak link, relied on Wilson's elusive abilities and Marshawn Lynch's bruising runs to compensate. Yet, the crime within this narrative lies in the failure to fortify the offensive line and adapt to the changing dynamics.

The departure of Beastmode left Wilson to shoulder the burden, revealing the team's dependence on their star quarterback. As Wilson's concerns about the offensive line went unaddressed, the team's fortunes took a downturn in the post-Russell era.

Now, in the aftermath of Wilson's departure, the Seahawks find themselves struggling once again. The 2022 season finished at 9-8, and signs point to a regression, echoing the pre-Wilson era. With the riches acquired from the Russell trade, expectations were high, yet the team appears trapped in a cycle of mediocrity.

This is not merely a John Schneider issue, but a reflection of Pete Carroll's inability to build a complete team without a superstar to mask deficiencies. As the Seahawks navigate a post-Russell era, the question remains: Can they draft another dynamic QB and find a stud running back to recreate the magic of the early Wilson years, or is the organization destined to remain in the shadows of its past success?


Wow, nice post! Are those your thoughts or did you engage in some plagiarism? :D I say that as a compliment because your writing looks very professional. You'd get an A+ in English Composition.

I agree with most of what you've said. Very good summation of the Pete Carroll era.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby 4XPIPS » Sun Nov 26, 2023 6:16 pm

RiverDog wrote:\

Wow, nice post! Are those your thoughts or did you engage in some plagiarism? :D I say that as a compliment because your writing looks very professional. You'd get an A+ in English Composition.

I agree with most of what you've said. Very good summation of the Pete Carroll era.


Ok full disclosure here as I do actually like to write. These are 100% my thoughts and point of view of the Beastmode and Russell. However, I did write up a long piece and decided for fun to throw into chat GPT, and asked chat GPT to reimagine it with the tone of "Tell this story as a Crime Documentary." This is what it came out as and more concise then the my actual initial long piece, but none the less has that crime documentary tone to it. So I am not taking 100% credit of the "professionalism" of writing it but the content are my thoughts.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby NorthHawk » Sun Nov 26, 2023 11:52 pm

I’ve been saying the OL is a weak spot for over 10 years and said at the time it would be exposed when Lynch left.
For some reason under Carroll, we’ve never developed a good one and even traded away a Pro Bowl Center and have yet to find a long term replacement. I can only think of 3 reasons for this issue:
(In no particular order)

1) They don’t think it’s important
2) They don’t know how to build a good OL
3) They think other positions can make up for a poorly performing group.

I used to think it was 1 and 3, but after more than a decade of patchworking an OL with seemingly no regard for continuity along with not allowing young OL to develop only to see them have solid careers on other teams, #2 seems to be the likeliest reason.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Aseahawkfan » Mon Nov 27, 2023 1:18 am

NorthHawk wrote:I’ve been saying the OL is a weak spot for over 10 years and said at the time it would be exposed when Lynch left.
For some reason under Carroll, we’ve never developed a good one and even traded away a Pro Bowl Center and have yet to find a long term replacement. I can only think of 3 reasons for this issue:
(In no particular order)

1) They don’t think it’s important
2) They don’t know how to build a good OL
3) They think other positions can make up for a poorly performing group.

I used to think it was 1 and 3, but after more than a decade of patchworking an OL with seemingly no regard for continuity along with not allowing young OL to develop only to see them have solid careers on other teams, #2 seems to be the likeliest reason.


Doesn't help that even when we draft quality prospects, something seems to go wrong.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Mon Nov 27, 2023 4:16 am

RiverDog wrote:\

Wow, nice post! Are those your thoughts or did you engage in some plagiarism? :D I say that as a compliment because your writing looks very professional. You'd get an A+ in English Composition.

I agree with most of what you've said. Very good summation of the Pete Carroll era.


4XPIPS wrote:Ok full disclosure here as I do actually like to write. These are 100% my thoughts and point of view of the Beastmode and Russell. However, I did write up a long piece and decided for fun to throw into chat GPT, and asked chat GPT to reimagine it with the tone of "Tell this story as a Crime Documentary." This is what it came out as and more concise then the my actual initial long piece, but none the less has that crime documentary tone to it. So I am not taking 100% credit of the "professionalism" of writing it but the content are my thoughts.


I'll have to remember that. I, too, like to write, and my best friend, an 85-year-old retired chemist with a PhD, like to flex his intellectual muscle as we'll bat emails back and forth about various subjects and he'll often times correct me as if he were reviewing a paper for a PhD candidate he was mentoring.

I, too, have been complaining about the offensive line almost since the beginning of the current regime. A year or so ago, I did some homework and compared offensive linemen to other positions, assigned them a value based on their draft position, and came up with quite a large difference in where we selected them vs. other positions. To be fair, guards and centers are seldom chosen in the top 10 in the first round, so some of it has to do with the overall value of the various positions, and one would have to do the same thing with other teams to get a good handle on just how much Pete values offensive linemen.

But there are other indicators as well, like Pete trading away a very high performing center at the peak of his career without a plan to replace him other than standing on the sidelines and screaming "Next man up!"
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby NorthHawk » Mon Nov 27, 2023 7:44 am

Doesn't help that even when we draft quality prospects, something seems to go wrong.


We didn't give them a chance to learn the position before either moving them to another one or eventually letting them go.
Ray Roberts is said to have described how they used Ifedi as ruining his career. I can see that as Ifedi's College playbook was something like 2 pages long and he rarely had his hand in the dirt, so when he was drafted he had to learn not only how to play at the NFL level, but how to play both RT and RG in a Zone/Man hybrid blocking scheme. They tried him at RT, then moved him to RG, then a couple of games back at RT, then benched him. He never really had a chance to develop and learn one position before moving to another and consequently was always thinking of what his assignment was. It was probably a big part of his off side penalties. Carpenter, although a high pick was a natural Guard and we did the same to him although he got a few good years with other teams. Then we developed Glowinski at RG and then didn't re-sign him and he went on to play for the Colts on one of the better OLs in the league. I think he's still playing. At Center we drafted Pocic then proceeded to play him at Guard and used journeymen veterans at C. He was not re-signed and is now a full time starter at Center in Cleveland and doing well. Then we took Lewis who was playing great at RG and signed Jackson from the Raiders and moved Lewis to LG where he took a step back, even though Jackson has played both RG and LG.
And there were others, too in this on going era of ineptitude on the OL with various OL coaches who have in many cases developed players on other teams and/or now are doing well coaching OL as their careers continue.
The common denominator is the Seattle Seahawks blowing it on the OL in both the draft and FA.
This past year we've let Cross and Lucas learn and grow and surprise! They are a reasonable pair when both healthy, but the key is they haven't moved positions. It only took them 12 years to figure it out.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:48 am

Rather than divert ongoing threads, I thought time to dig up this old one on Russell Wilson.

There's lots of rumors floating around that the Broncos might bite the bullet and cut him on March 1st, stemming from Payton going ballistic on him last week and this week's disappointing loss to the lowly Pats and virtually sinking their playoff chances, now rated at 5%.

The money for next season is already guaranteed. The Broncos will be paying Wilson $39 million whether he's in Denver or not. The Broncos do, however, have an out for the 2025 season. If the team releases him by March 17, they would not have to commit to paying the $37 million they owe him in 2025. Yes, it means they'd be paying Wilson in 2024 to likely compete against them, but it gives them a chance to restart earlier.

Hawktawk might be right after all. Russell could be out of the league next season.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby NorthHawk » Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:08 am

He's been quite inconsistent.
He at times has played pretty well and some times pretty badly, but most of the time he's been somewhere in the middle with a couple of magic moments.
Paying him as much as they are, they aren't getting their money's worth. But who out there is better in FA and could Wilson be a bridge QB for a draft pick?
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:57 am

NorthHawk wrote:He's been quite inconsistent.
He at times has played pretty well and some times pretty badly, but most of the time he's been somewhere in the middle with a couple of magic moments.
Paying him as much as they are, they aren't getting their money's worth. But who out there is better in FA and could Wilson be a bridge QB for a draft pick?


There's a lot of good 'bridge' quarterbacks that will be free agents next season if they want to go that route. Here's just a few:

Kirk Cousins
Ryan Tannehill
Baker Mayfield
Joshua Dobbs
Gardner Minshew
Sam Darnold

But it might not be worth it as they're going to have to pay Russell $37M whether he's on the roster or not, and it's going to cost $5M+ to sign one of those guys. It depends on how badly Payton wants him out, but if there's a will, there's a way.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Stream Hawk » Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:17 am

Is officially benched.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/391 ... ources-say
Seems like it’s a start to move away from him next year. Really sad how his career has just stalled since mid-2020. Somewhere HawkTawk is sipping some tea 8-)
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby c_hawkbob » Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:49 am

To be clear, this is a "don't let him get hurt and damage his market value" benching, not a make the team better benching. He's 100% not a Bronco next year.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:18 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:To be clear, this is a "don't let him get hurt and damage his market value" benching, not a make the team better benching. He's 100% not a Bronco next year.


His benching is not about his market value as much as it is his contract. If he were to get injured, it would trigger a clause in his contract where he'd be guaranteed his $37M if he were to fail his physical in March:

Russell Wilson has unusual contract clause that gives him financial incentive to get hurt.

Russell Wilson's unusual contract details will force the Denver Broncos to bench him for the remainder of the NFL season. He will receive $37 million guaranteed if he sustains an injury and fails a physical in March.

According to ESPN, which first reported the contract clause, Denver will start Jarrett Stidham at quarterback for the next two weeks, worried that Wilson could get hurt if he suits up.


It's been an amazing fall from grace. As I've said before, I have mixed emotions.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Wed Dec 27, 2023 4:28 pm

I just saw this report:

Sources to
@BleacherReport
: The #Broncos threatened to bench Russell Wilson weeks ago if he didn’t remove his injury guarantees.

Russell Wilson’s benching by the Broncos today is solely financially related and has been in the works for weeks, per multiple sources with direct access to the situation.

The Broncos approached Wilson two days after their October 29 upset win over the Kansas City Chiefs and told him he would be made inactive for the rest of the season if he did not adjust his contract and defer the injury guarantee trigger date that he has for 2025. Wilson has $37 million in injury guarantees for 2025 that will become guaranteed no matter what on the fifth day of the 2024 league year in March.

At that time, Wilson was coming off a 3-touchdown game in the win over the Chiefs and was starting to experience the type of success he envisioned following a challenging first year in Denver. The threat however, “shocked him,” and the two sides got into a major dispute on how to proceed.

The issue remained, but the Broncos stuck with Wilson as the team strung together primetime wins over the Buffalo Bills and Minnesota Vikings, followed by another win over the Cleveland Browns, one of the league’s best defenses.

When the threat was made by the Broncos, the team, Wilson's camp, the NFLPA, and another unknown party were involved in negotiations that ended with no change in Wilson’s contract

And it all came crashing down today when Sean Payton and other top-level members of Denver’s organization decided to go ahead with the plan they’ve had for weeks.


https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/stat ... _&ref_url=
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Agent 86 » Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:50 pm

RiverDog wrote:I just saw this report:

Sources to
@BleacherReport
: The #Broncos threatened to bench Russell Wilson weeks ago if he didn’t remove his injury guarantees.

Russell Wilson’s benching by the Broncos today is solely financially related and has been in the works for weeks, per multiple sources with direct access to the situation.

The Broncos approached Wilson two days after their October 29 upset win over the Kansas City Chiefs and told him he would be made inactive for the rest of the season if he did not adjust his contract and defer the injury guarantee trigger date that he has for 2025. Wilson has $37 million in injury guarantees for 2025 that will become guaranteed no matter what on the fifth day of the 2024 league year in March.

At that time, Wilson was coming off a 3-touchdown game in the win over the Chiefs and was starting to experience the type of success he envisioned following a challenging first year in Denver. The threat however, “shocked him,” and the two sides got into a major dispute on how to proceed.

The issue remained, but the Broncos stuck with Wilson as the team strung together primetime wins over the Buffalo Bills and Minnesota Vikings, followed by another win over the Cleveland Browns, one of the league’s best defenses.

When the threat was made by the Broncos, the team, Wilson's camp, the NFLPA, and another unknown party were involved in negotiations that ended with no change in Wilson’s contract

And it all came crashing down today when Sean Payton and other top-level members of Denver’s organization decided to go ahead with the plan they’ve had for weeks.


https://twitter.com/Schultz_Report/stat ... _&ref_url=


Wow, that is quite a story. Hard to believe it has come to this with Russ. That trade couldn't have been at a better time for the Seahawks.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:44 am

Agent 86 wrote:Wow, that is quite a story. Hard to believe it has come to this with Russ. That trade couldn't have been at a better time for the Seahawks.


I never expected Russell to take the Broncos to the Super Bowl, but I sure as hell didn't think that it would end this way this soon, either. Less than two years into this trade and he's being kicked to the curb. He hasn't even owned that $25M, 12-bathroom home long enough to avoid the capital gains tax when he sells it. And to think that we were actually debating him going into the HOF on the first ballot.

It's also ironic that Sean Payton was Russell's preferred coach, and here he is benching him with two weeks left in their first season together.

From what I've read, there is almost no chance that Russell will be traded. He has a no trade clause in his contract, so why would he waive it and force his new team to give up something of value when he can simply force the Broncos to cut him, pay his salary, and allow him to go to a team of his choosing?

Maybe this will serve as a lesson to other teams not to be selling the farm for a single player without an out in the contract. "Yikes" Adams is our Russell Wilson, although on a much smaller scale. And there's other teams that have hitched their wagons to underperforming quarterbacks. The Cards and Kyler Murray and the Browns with Deshawn Watson are two that come to the top of my head.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby NorthHawk » Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:19 am

Contracts with Free Agents might be harder now that this has become known.
More guarantees for the player might become the norm and maybe more outs in the contract language for the player as well.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2023 8:35 am

NorthHawk wrote:Contracts with Free Agents might be harder now that this has become known.
More guarantees for the player might become the norm and maybe more outs in the contract language for the player as well.


It sure seems to me that the contracts are overly weighted to favor the player, at least the high-end players like Russell. Aaron Rodgers has an injury clause in his contract that could pay him as much as $49M. Perhaps this season will bring some sanity back to the process.

In any event, I would expect teams to be a lot more conservative as a result of Denver's plight with Russell.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Agent 86 » Thu Dec 28, 2023 9:28 am

Article from the Broncos Athletic writer yesterday......


ENGLEWOOD, Colo. — When the Denver Broncos were nearing the finish line in negotiations with the Seattle Seahawks in March of 2022 for a blockbuster trade of quarterback Russell Wilson, general manager George Paton went to new head coach Nathaniel Hackett and asked him to look at the veteran’s tape.

Hackett’s response, according to Paton: “I don’t need to watch the tape. He’s kicked my ass for many years.”

Perhaps not too much should be made of a playful anecdote shared during the euphoria of Wilson’s introductory press conference. Hackett, as he and Paton made clear, did ultimately digest the film of the quarterback’s 10 seasons with the Seahawks, a run that included nine Pro Bowl invitations. But in hindsight, amid Tuesday’s news that the Broncos are benching Wilson for the final two games of his second season with the team, it’s hard not to view the story as fitting context around what will almost certainly go down as one of the worst trades in NFL history.

The Broncos believed Wilson would be for them what he had always been in Seattle: a quarterback who simply always found a way to win, regardless of circumstance. They saw the glory, the quarterback who lifted a Lombardi Trophy and was one bad throw away from putting his hands on another. They saw a player whose playoff experience, years of gaudy numbers and veteran leadership could lift a team desperately trying to find its way back onto a winning path. The Broncos wanted all those things badly enough to send five draft picks, two of them first-rounders, and three players to the Seahawks for Wilson and a fourth-round pick.

They wanted him badly enough to avoid the warning signs that his play was on a downward trajectory.

It was a massive price to pay, even before the Broncos plopped a five-year, $245 million contract extension in front of the then 33-year-old quarterback before he had ever thrown a pass in a Broncos uniform. The entire transaction has been a major flop — the Broncos have gone 11-19 during Wilson’s 30 starts in Denver — but to pin all the problems that have plagued the franchise since the trade on Wilson would be woefully misguided.

The Broncos wanted everything Wilson had provided with the Seahawks badly enough to ignore — or at least rationalize — clear signs, pointed out for several years in Seattle by those who watched the quarterback closely, that his play was diminishing. The issues that plagued Wilson during the back end of his career with the Seahawks, including a notable decline in mobility that has compromised his work in and out of the pocket, have been prominent in Denver. Wilson has posted the two worst seasons of his career while in Denver in terms of EPA (expected points added). His 84.4 passer rating in 2022 was the worst of his career and the 98.0 rating he has posted this season is his second-worst since 2017.

It has all fallen so short of what the Broncos expected. But it isn’t just the quarterback who didn’t hold up his end of the bargain.

Hackett, hired less than two months before the deal for Wilson was struck, was out of his depth as a first-year coach, a fact that became clear from the start of his first season on the job. In trying to blend the offense he had helped construct in Green Bay for Aaron Rodgers with the pieces of the scheme Wilson liked in Seattle, the Broncos instead produced an offense without a discernible identity. The Broncos couldn’t protect Wilson by creating a sturdy ground game and Denver gave up a franchise record 63 sacks in 2022 — 55 of which were absorbed by Wilson in his 15 starts. Wilson’s footwork eroded amid the onslaught of pressure and his decision-making late in games — epitomized by a brutal end-zone interception in Week 5 against the Indianapolis Colts — became erratic at times.

Fifteen games into the season, after a disaster of a performance by Wilson and Denver’s offense on Christmas Day in a blowout loss to the Los Angeles Rams, Hackett was fired. The Broncos had mortgaged much of their future for a franchise quarterback, but his fit with the head coach, despite consistent public declarations of harmony, was disjointed from the start.

Wilson excitedly embraced the arrival of Sean Payton, the Super Bowl-winning coach who had helped Drew Brees, the passer Wilson most respected, author a Hall of Fame-caliber career in New Orleans after signing him as a free agent in 2006. Payton was confident he could take Wilson “off the high dive,” putting less of a burden to carry the offense on his shoulders. In doing so, the Broncos for stretches of this season played cleaner football than they did last season. During a five-game winning streak following a 1-5 start, Wilson threw no interceptions and the Broncos took advantage of the field position provided by a ballhawking defense to dig out of their early hole.

But it was never an offense in which Wilson could thrive or truly play to his strengths. Despite a decline in overall athleticism, Wilson remains a talented playmaker, a quarterback who can fire big strikes down the field when operating out of structure. It was evident in Denver’s 26-23 loss to the New England Patriots on Christmas Eve. Down 23-7 in the fourth quarter, Wilson led the Broncos on two 75-plus-yard touchdown drives and capped them both with two-point conversion throws to tie the game. He improvised, moved outside the pocket and found his receivers deep down the field.

“We picked up the tempo a little bit and guys made some great plays,” Wilson said.

It was as close as Wilson has been this season to suggesting how he believes the Broncos should play. But Payton’s view of the sequence was different.

“A lot of it was empty with no back, and we made some plays,” Payton said, “(but) it’s hard to say you’re going to make a living that way as your base offense.”

Payton wants to play a certain way. He wants a quarterback who can routinely deliver the ball in the rhythm of his offense. Second acts, in his view, can’t be the first plan. The benching of Wilson is about playing a different way, but is it solely on Wilson that he has been asked to operate in a way that doesn’t consistently fit his strengths?

“Being around Russell, he’s one of the toughest people I’ve ever been around, especially in this sport,” Broncos right tackle Mike McGlinchey said last week. “And, obviously, nobody takes more s— than he does. The way that he constantly continues to rise above it and prepare the way that he always has prepared, and lead our football team, and has helped put us in position for a playoff run. … I think two-and-a-half months ago, you guys all would have laughed at us. So here we are with three games to go. Russell is going to do what he always has done best and compete his ass off and put us in position to win games.”

Payton on Wednesday showed some regret for his role in how Wilson’s season played out.

“There’s a part of you, certainly myself as a head coach, that feels like, ‘Man, I needed to be better.'”

The Broncos said Wednesday the move was about trying to find a spark for an offense that has floundered during the stretch. But this is clearly about the future, too. There are big financial components at play, of course. Wilson already has $39 million guaranteed for 2024, but another $37 million of 2025 salary is guaranteed for injury only. It would become fully guaranteed if Wilson were still on the team during the fifth day of the next league year in March. An injury to Wilson over the final two games that prevented him from passing a physical at that time would leave the Broncos on the hook for all of that salary. You can always follow the money in pro sports.

But moving on from Wilson may create more problems than it fixes. Cutting him would create $85 million in dead money. It could be spread out over the next two seasons with a post-June 1 designation, but a move like that would nonetheless put the squeeze on Denver’s books and possibly necessitate the shedding of other key players and their contracts. The Broncos don’t have a wealth of young, inexpensive talent in large part because the trades for Wilson and Payton zapped a total of three first-round picks for Denver across the past two years. The Broncos are in desperate need of more speed to complement their quarterback.

That’s to say nothing of who will replace Wilson if he has indeed played his last game with the Broncos. Payton believes Jarrett Stidham is an “ascending” quarterback, and perhaps these final two games will illustrate as much, but he’s made just two starts since entering the league as a fourth-round pick of the Patriots in 2019. There simply isn’t much to go on.

The Broncos won’t be in range to draft top prospects Caleb Williams or Drake Maye, a vision that seemed possible when Denver began the season by losing five of six games. There could be other options in the draft. Perhaps Heisman Trophy winner Jayden Daniels of LSU could be in range. Or Michigan’s J.J. McCarthy. All were first-round prospects in The Athletic’s most recent mock draft by prospect guru Dane Brugler.

But none of this will be as easy for the Broncos as changing the quarterback. If the ill-fated Wilson trade should have taught the Broncos anything, it is that most of all.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2023 11:24 am

That was a good read. Thanks for posting it.

This paragraph caught my eye:

The Broncos wanted everything Wilson had provided with the Seahawks badly enough to ignore — or at least rationalize — clear signs, pointed out for several years in Seattle by those who watched the quarterback closely, that his play was diminishing. The issues that plagued Wilson during the back end of his career with the Seahawks, including a notable decline in mobility that has compromised his work in and out of the pocket, have been prominent in Denver.

A lot of us in this forum picked up on the same thing, that the attributes which made Russell so successful early in his career, in particular his mobility and elusiveness, had diminished, and that if he was going to have the kind of success on the back 9, that he was going to have to change his style of play. He didn't do that in his last few years with us and obviously hasn't done it in Denver, either. 

Russell's time to throw numbers are still very high, the third slowest in the league. While holding onto the ball so long often times leads to the spectacular "how did he do that?" moments, it also leads to some horrible, disastrous plays as well. It's a boom or bust style.

I think that one of the things that has frustrated Payton is that there were times, apparently too many of them, when Russell would not take advantage of a play Payton had called and instead opted to ad lib. Here's a good example:

https://twitter.com/BroncosAve/status/1 ... _&ref_url=

It's plausible that it was those kinds of things, not generally noticed by a lot of us fans, that could have led Payton to suddenly lose it and unload on Russell like he did in that sideline rant of a few weeks ago.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby MackStrongIsMyHero » Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:10 pm

I don’t see Payton, a proven play caller and offensive maven, being happy with going off script when he’s put in the work to develop a game plan to attack this week’s defense. The play you posted epitomizes that.

This is another reason why I was so taken aback by the news this offseason that Wilson was working out with his personal QB coach doing mobility and throwing on the run drills that are no longer his forte. Anybody remember Jake Heaps? That’s Wilson’s personal qb coach. Those who can’t do, teach; those who can’t teach, apparently get to be Russel Wilson’s personal QB coach. None of this work was conducive to succeeding in Payton’s offense.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Thu Dec 28, 2023 4:36 pm

MackStrongIsMyHero wrote:I don’t see Payton, a proven play caller and offensive maven, being happy with going off script when he’s put in the work to develop a game plan to attack this week’s defense. The play you posted epitomizes that.

This is another reason why I was so taken aback by the news this offseason that Wilson was working out with his personal QB coach doing mobility and throwing on the run drills that are no longer his forte. Anybody remember Jake Heaps? That’s Wilson’s personal qb coach. Those who can’t do, teach; those who can’t teach, apparently get to be Russel Wilson’s personal QB coach. None of this work was conducive to succeeding in Payton’s offense.


Oh I remember Jake Heaps. He was a hot QB prospect coming out of HS up here in WA. He was one of the "Team 3" guys that Hackett allowed to access the Broncos' training facility, one of the special perks Russell was granted last season.

And you're exactly right about Russell's style of play, ie holding onto the ball and scrambling around. It has to drive a coach or OC nuts when he does that. It's almost impossible to design a system for a quarterback like Russell who is always going off script and playing sand lot football. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this explains Payton going ballistic on Russell a couple weeks ago. I can think of no other reason.

Russell's time to throw number, tied for the 3rd slowest in the league, is evidence of his inability or reluctance to play within a system:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/pass ... e-to-throw
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:46 pm

Well, it's been confirmed, straight from the horse's mouth:

Russell Wilson details that the Broncos asked him during the bye week to remove the injury guarantee from his contract, and that if he didn’t, “I’d be benched for the rest of the year.”

https://twitter.com/MaseDenver/status/1 ... _&ref_url=

We've seen the last of Russell as a Bronco.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby Agent 86 » Fri Dec 29, 2023 11:19 pm

RiverDog wrote:Well, it's been confirmed, straight from the horse's mouth:

Russell Wilson details that the Broncos asked him during the bye week to remove the injury guarantee from his contract, and that if he didn’t, “I’d be benched for the rest of the year.”

https://twitter.com/MaseDenver/status/1 ... _&ref_url=

We've seen the last of Russell as a Bronco.


No, that quote was from Wilson, not from Elway :lol:

On another note on that, I finally watched the 30 for 30 episode last night of "Elway to Marino", what an intriguing story of that draft which I was too young to remember. So many storylines and so many teams that were in it for Elway. We ended up taking Curt Warner 3rd overall which wasn't too bad, but Elway turned out to be a hell of a QB. The '83 season was my first recollection of being a Seahawks fan, and boy did I grow up despising Elway and the Broncos as AFC West foes.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:14 am

RiverDog wrote:Well, it's been confirmed, straight from the horse's mouth:

Russell Wilson details that the Broncos asked him during the bye week to remove the injury guarantee from his contract, and that if he didn’t, “I’d be benched for the rest of the year.”

https://twitter.com/MaseDenver/status/1 ... _&ref_url=

We've seen the last of Russell as a Bronco.


Agent 86 wrote:No, that quote was from Wilson, not from Elway :lol:

On another note on that, I finally watched the 30 for 30 episode last night of "Elway to Marino", what an intriguing story of that draft which I was too young to remember. So many storylines and so many teams that were in it for Elway. We ended up taking Curt Warner 3rd overall which wasn't too bad, but Elway turned out to be a hell of a QB. The '83 season was my first recollection of being a Seahawks fan, and boy did I grow up despising Elway and the Broncos as AFC West foes.


Yeah, Brian Bosworth dubbed Elway "Mr. Ed" in reference to a 60's TV show that only baby boomers like me would understand. Elway had a baseball option which helped him steer where he was going to play.

Back to topic. I see where a lot of people aren't believing what Russell said in that interview, and I get that. The way Russell left Seattle and the blatant lies he told in doing so, I can completely understand why fans don't automatically believe what he says. I'm much the same way. I do not hold him as being a credible source of information and I require some sort of validation before I'll believe him. I can't accept what he says at face value.

But in this particular case, although I'm sure that he's putting his own spin on the events, what he says lines up with what we already know as fact and is believable.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Sun Dec 31, 2023 4:02 pm

Well, I guess that we know now why the Broncos waited until this week to bench Russell instead of following through with their threat made during their bye in Week 9:

It has come to our attention that the Denver Broncos recently informed Mr. Wilson and his Certified Contract Advisor that if Mr. Wilson would not renegotiate his Player Contract to relinquish certain salary guarantees, the Broncos would remove him from the starting lineup.

If the Broncos follow-through on the Club’s threat, the Club will violate, among other things, the Collective Bargaining Agreement, Mr. Wilson’s Player Contract and New York law. And, we are particularly concerned that the Broncos still intend to commit these violations under the guise of ‘coaching decisions.’


https://sports.yahoo.com/nflpa-says-bro ... ZnlI9JW1tT

But at this point, it's going to be damn tough to prove that changing quarterbacks in Week 17 after losing 3 of their last 4 and when they are virtually eliminated from the playoffs wasn't football related.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby c_hawkbob » Sun Dec 31, 2023 5:40 pm

No it's not. I'm 90% sure they'll win that case. All this story does is explain why Peyton is insisting it's a football decision when the whole NFL knows it's pure business decision.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Sun Dec 31, 2023 6:05 pm

c_hawkbob wrote:No it's not. I'm 90% sure they'll win that case. All this story does is explain why Peyton is insisting it's a football decision when the whole NFL knows it's pure business decision.


It's up to the prosecution to prove their case, and unless they can uncover a smoking gun, an email, text message, etc hard evidence that documents a recent discussion where Payton and management decided to bench Russell for something other than football reasons, I don't see any way in hell where they can prove that Russell was benched because he refused to remove the injury clause in his contract. Heck, there isn't even any hard evidence that we know of that they even made the threat. Russell started 7 straight games after the threat was supposedly made, which is evidence to the contrary.

As a matter of fact, I would bet money that the union won't even bother to file a grievance.
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Re: Russell Wilson

Postby RiverDog » Wed Jan 03, 2024 7:30 am

Here's an article that presents a definite possibility, and if true, would explain a lot of things:

When players watched film during the week of the past few games, they saw an endless string of open players that Wilson wasn't finding in time. Sure, the big-time plays in the fourth quarter were there, but finding the open guy in rhythm was an issue. Players saw it, and privately discussed it among themselves, sources say. Some have wondered the last few weeks if Stidham, who Payton signed early in free agency, would be better.

Payton hasn't been happy with how his offense has been running, sources say. He's seen it at a high-level with Drew Brees, and this wasn't it. They kept needing to simplify and pare it down, they struggled to get plays in and it rarely was run to the speed he wanted. Wilson made the plays off-schedule in the fourth quarter. But Payton fumed at the lack of efficiency on a regular basis. Over the past few weeks, he's weighed a decision. This week, it seems Stidham has run the offense well in practice, with optimism rising.

Payton was wary of Wilson during his interview with the Broncos before they hired him last offseason, sources say. While he spoke in the interview of how to help turn him into a championship QB and how to fix him, he privately wasn't as sure it could be done. By taking the job, he committed to trying. It has not worked.

Last summer, and again in October during the team's bye week, Broncos general manager George Paton discussed with the QB's longtime agent, Mark Rodgers, potentially altering Wilson's contract, pushing back the early vesting date of his 2025 injury guarantees. As it stands now, the $37 million injury guarantee in 2025 would become fully guaranteed in March of 2024. Paton figured that moving the date back to the start of the league year in 2025 would increase the viability of Wilson both short- and long-term, since it would eliminate the need for the Broncos to make a two-year decision on him within the next couple months, drastically raising the chances of him being a Bronco in 2024. Wilson viewed it as a threat to be benched, as he said this week. Ultimately, he was not benched until seven weeks later, with the Broncos ranking 25th in offense and their playoff hopes shrinking after a 42-17 loss to the Lions followed by a 26-23 defeat at home to the lowly Patriots on national TV on Christmas Eve.


https://www.si.com/nfl/broncos/news/rus ... new-report

So, is it possible that there wasn't a threat of benching, that it was only Wilson or his agent's interpretation? It would explain a lot of things.

After the way he left Seattle, I have a hard time taking what Russell says at face value.
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