RB/WR Balanced Talent Infusion

[RiverDog]

The RB position in the NFL is changing from year to year.
We don't see as many dominating RBs as 5 years ago and that is less than 10 years ago. The position is now a more complete player who can be a weapon in the pass game, the motion game and the run game.
It's no longer a game of the QB handing the ball off and the RB pounding the rock. It's much more nuanced with a lot more deception. McIntosh and Charbonnet both come from college offenses that used that
type of schemes so they should help, as long as Pete doesn't restrict it.

Which is one of the reasons why I've been so adverse to spending high draft picks on running backs. There aren't very many running backs out there that are 3 down backs. Walker certainly isn't, neither was Penny. It's become a very specialized position, with players that are either/or but not both. It's similar to the tight end position in that you have good receiving tight ends and good blocking tight ends but not very many that are good at both.

[tarlhawk]

Which is one of the reasons why I've been so adverse to spending high draft picks on running backs. There aren't very many running backs out there that are 3 down backs. Walker certainly isn't, neither was Penny. It's become a very specialized position, with players that are either/or but not both. It's similar to the tight end position in that you have good receiving tight ends and good blocking tight ends but not very many that are good at both.

Your viewpoint is based on an "older" concept of having a feature RB or a featured TE...the most recent teams going to the Super Bowl have a multi used RB "room"...a TE group able to function as a sum in a 12 personnel package. The idea is the sum of your parts is what creates pressure on a defense to figure out who to key on...what is the real threat being presented when they see the pieces rotate in...when you have personnel that can function at a high level in more than one role you cause a dilemma for most defenses.

Deebo Samuel represents the better parts of a WR/RB blend...just setting him in motion contorts defenses trying to diagnose what play is being called and if Deebo is a decoy or the actual point of emphasis. Part of the "unseen" pressure being exerted on a defense is knowing the RB currently on the field can turn a single defensive mistake/hesitation into a TD from any down/distance. Ken Walker III has demonstrated that ability and Charbonnet is "projected" at having similar capabilities. Now the defense can't breathe a sigh of relief seeing Walker come off the field as Charbonnet rotates in.

McIntosh doesn't represent that same defensive risk to take it to the bank...but the very real threat is similar to Deebo...he can strike for 1rst downs in bunches in space after a catch. Yes in the current NFL world of using RB sets...not merely individuals ...you gain a tactical edge with more than one highly skilled RB. As for the knock on someone's 40 yd time as a key indicator of risk from a RB/WR play maker...Jerry Rice functioned quite well with 4.6 speed. Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

Which is one of the reasons why I've been so adverse to spending high draft picks on running backs. There aren't very many running backs out there that are 3 down backs. Walker certainly isn't, neither was Penny. It's become a very specialized position, with players that are either/or but not both. It's similar to the tight end position in that you have good receiving tight ends and good blocking tight ends but not very many that are good at both.

That's a pretty short sighted point of view. The RB position is now more than just a RB in modern day offenses, it's a position that is WR/RB/motion man/safety valve position more than it's ever been. Having a top player at that position makes the Offense much more dynamic and unpredictable. Confusing defenses is a big part of today's offenses and RBs can be a big part of doing that. Running the ball, is real important, too because it keeps the defenses honest - they can't cheat, so the RB has to be a more complete player. And you rarely get the best ones later in the draft.

[tarlhawk]

Ken Walker III has shown early in camp he is working to keep most of his offensive snaps:

While raving about Walker’s offseason, Carroll gave an unprompted mention of the work he put in on his pass-catching.

“He's worked so hard with the receivers,” Carroll said. “He's worked full-speed day after day after day. His confidence, his explosiveness, his quickness, his ability to run the routes and catch the ball, he's doing everything. He's catching punts. He's catching kickoffs. He's doing everything he can possibly do, and he's having a blast. His attitude and spirit is just such a great compliment too, coming off the season that he had.

“I'm glad we've got a lot of guys at that spot. We're not going to overuse him in the early part of preseason ... but he's ready to go. He's had as good of an offseason as you could have, really.”


Early days...

[RiverDog]

Ken Walker III has shown early in camp he is working to keep most of his offensive snaps:

While raving about Walker’s offseason, Carroll gave an unprompted mention of the work he put in on his pass-catching.

“He's worked so hard with the receivers,” Carroll said. “He's worked full-speed day after day after day. His confidence, his explosiveness, his quickness, his ability to run the routes and catch the ball, he's doing everything. He's catching punts. He's catching kickoffs. He's doing everything he can possibly do, and he's having a blast. His attitude and spirit is just such a great compliment too, coming off the season that he had.

“I'm glad we've got a lot of guys at that spot. We're not going to overuse him in the early part of preseason ... but he's ready to go. He's had as good of an offseason as you could have, really.”


Early days...

Walker's going to have to do more than just catch passes if he wants to be fully involved on 3rd downs as there's going to be a lot of plays where he won't be going out on a route. He needs to work on his blocking.

[Aseahawkfan]

The RB position in the NFL is changing from year to year.
We don't see as many dominating RBs as 5 years ago and that is less than 10 years ago. The position is now a more complete player who can be a weapon in the pass game, the motion game and the run game.
It's no longer a game of the QB handing the ball off and the RB pounding the rock. It's much more nuanced with a lot more deception. McIntosh and Charbonnet both come from college offenses that used that
type of schemes so they should help, as long as Pete doesn't restrict it.

Pete has always went with what the RB is good at. Sure, he would like a Roger Craig, but those types are hard to find. It's not like every team would not prefer an all tools RB. They don't grow on trees. They are a rarity, so it isn't some kind of change. You use the talent to their best ability. Finding complete RBs is super hard.

It's easier to find a runner and a separate 3rd down back than to find a RB that can do everything well, much less two of them.

So not sure why you think the "the position is now a more complete player." That's false. The RB position has not changed, the game itself has moved to more passing. It's extremely hard to find that all tools RB that can run hard and catch well. It's hard to be a hard runner and stay healthy by itself, much less be a hard runner and stay healthy while also being a good receiver and stay healthy.

Pete has been using the talent to their abilities. It's not "Pete holding them back." It's Pete knowing what they are capable of like most coaches do.

People talking like Pete didn't try to find a receiving TE when he made the trade for Jimmy Graham. He tried, but it didn't work out as well as expected for a variety of reasons.

Fact is Pete's ideal team is likely Frisco in the 80s. That team could do nearly everything well. But you can't stack talent like that any more due to the salary cap and talent dilution due to the size of the league. So building a Frisco type of team that can do everything well, you don't see that any more from any team. It's every coach's dream to have the perfect team strong at every position like you saw in the 80s and 90s. I still remember watching Dallas and Frisco, those two teams you often knew every player at every position because every one of them was some kind of stud.

That ain't the modern NFL. So you play to your strengths and let the strong horses do what they do best rather than trying to create schemes and use players in ways they aren't good at.

[RiverDog]

So not sure why you think the "the position is now a more complete player." That's false. The RB position has not changed, the game itself has moved to more passing. It's extremely hard to find that all tools RB that can run hard and catch well. It's hard to be a hard runner and stay healthy by itself, much less be a hard runner and stay healthy while also being a good receiver and stay healthy.

And even harder to find one that can run, catch, and block. Don't forget, running backs are often called upon to pick up a blitzing linebacker.

It's one of the reasons why I don't like spending high draft picks on running backs, because there are damn few that are actually 3 down backs. Couple that with the fact that the position is the most injury prone on the field and it makes sense to use a running back by committee approach with specialized roles. We don't want Walker getting 25 touches a game as it increases the risk of him sustaining a major injury.

I don't care what Pete says about Walker's efforts to become a better receiver. Pete's always blowing smoke like that. It's a motivational tactic of his, meant to give his players, who read and hear all the same stuff we all do, some inspiration.

[NorthHawk]

You just have to look at how many RBs that were just runners and were the biggest part of their teams Offense 5 to 10 years ago and how many now. Most teams look at RBs as weapons and not just ball carriers. We’re seeing them more and more running seam routes, lining up in the slot or WR and running sweeps, more wheel routes, and more. It’s what the NFL is moving to as the position evolves.

[Aseahawkfan]

You just have to look at how many RBs that were just runners and were the biggest part of their teams Offense 5 to 10 years ago and how many now. Most teams look at RBs as weapons and not just ball carriers. We’re seeing them more and more running seam routes, lining up in the slot or WR and running sweeps, more wheel routes, and more. It’s what the NFL is moving to as the position evolves.

It's been that way since the WCO in the 80s. That was the biggest change I've seen and the league has adapted to moving the ball with the short passing game. The main change I've seen from that is the high volume passing attack that came with the advent of the WCO and the short passing game combined with the league adapting to rule changes like no longer allow you to destroy the QB. That has led to higher volume passing attacks which has led to the inflated yards and more exciting passing games that folks like you like.

I will reiterate that it is incredibly difficult to find RBs with those tools. It hasn't been Pete trying to not use the RB in the passing game. You have to have a RB capable of doing it well.

Talent acquisition is the problem, not Pete's way of doing things which is adaptive to the talent available. But John and he have been picking bad groceries and that costs you over time.

[tarlhawk]

It's one of the reasons why I don't like spending high draft picks on running backs, because there are damn few that are actually 3 down backs. Couple that with the fact that the position is the most injury prone on the field and it makes sense to use a running back by committee approach with specialized roles. We don't want Walker getting 25 touches a game as it increases the risk of him sustaining a major injury.

I don't care what Pete says about Walker's efforts to become a better receiver. Pete's always blowing smoke like that. It's a motivational tactic of his, meant to give his players, who read and hear all the same stuff we all do, some inspiration.

Your position and view hasn't changed much...you do hit on two areas of concern. A high volume of rushes increases the risk of injuries and your 2nd point...the very real importance of a RB willing to pass protect on passing downs. The importance of having high value/high draft capital spent varies from team to team and leans heavily on how their role plays out for the offense. 3 down feature backs are not needed in most offenses...committee approach has become the norm. Walker's high value is based on the impact he creates on the opponents defense. Pressure becomes intense when a defense knows that on any down and distance a single mistake that allows Ken to burst into space can quickly change the outcome of a game. His burst is elite quickly accelerating into such a high speed that NFL caliber tacklers take poor attack angles...watch his tape on some of his longer runs...tacklers are arriving but thats when his "extra" gear explodes leaving many tacklers behind and pursuit from behind is not really an option at that point. Next Gen Stats is "nerdy" but it is not speculation to have Walker III lauded as the most explosive NFL RB last year. Pete drafted Charbonnet so that when Walker comes off the field...that pressure on the defense is still there...our team is keeping its "foot on the neck" pressure.

Our opponents defenses in 2023 will face the very real dilemma of whether to "load the box" hoping to hit Walker III before he plants his foot to "jump cut" into space...but at the risk of single man coverage for DK/Lockett/JSN...or lighten the box hoping to drop additional coverage as our WR scatter down field. Walker's explosiveness and JSN's "short area quickness" are a deadly combo...its going to be fun as a fan to see this develop. The improving O-line is key to how soon this dilemma becomes constant.

One last thing Riv your "knock" on Pete's assessment of Ken developing his threat as a "rich" check down target is backed by 2022 stats. With all the WR/TE weapons at Geno's disposal you aren't going to see a "sudden" surge in RB targets...its the threat as a check down target that will ratchet up the need for the opponent to not give Geno time to "go through his progressions". Last year Ken caught as many passes as Marquis Goodwin (only 27 catches) but total yds before contact was -56 and the avg depth of catch was over 2 yds behind scrimmage...his yds after contact was 221 modest yds but at the teams highest clip of 8.2 yds per catch avg...not bad as a check down option. Its just another thorn in our opponents defensive strategy to worry about.

[NorthHawk]

It's not the same as the WCO. The WCO uses RBs for short passes and it might be the start of the RB evolution, but watch the college games and you can see where the position is going.
Bijan Robinson was the first RB chosen this year and has been compared to Saquan Barkley (sp). The first thing the Falcons did was introduce him to the pass game because that's where they want to use him, and the next RB was Jhamyr Gibbs who the Lions have said drafted him because he was so versatile and does well as a receiver. We selected 2 RBs and both come from schools where they were used a lot in the passing game. Barkley, mentioned above was used last year in the receiving role more than he ever has and got a lot of yardage from those types of plays.
The offensive theories are that these players drafted as RBs have to be more than just ball carriers and getting favorable matchups with defenders is the idea. It makes one wonder why it didn't happen sooner because getting a RB one on one with a LB or Safety is what every Offensive Coordinator dreams of.

It doesn't mean they won't be running between the Tackles or outside stretch plays with the RB running traditional plays. That's going to stay and it has to, but the league is moving towards fewer carries of that type and getting the ball in their hands in space against a single defender. That's a matchup every Offense wants.

[tarlhawk]

Thats a good take NH. Not sure if you are leaning toward saying that our spread offense is going to see a surge in using RB as catch targets...who are you taking targets away from?? DK? Lockett? using JSN as a decoy? Fant as a decoy? I see Geno as a good distributor of passes but no real serious push to get RB involved at the expense of the many weapons assembled in Geno's toolbox. My take is that this additional viability of getting RB in space just allows Shane Waldron the ability and luxury to design plays to his hearts content. We can strike a deciding blow from almost any area of the field not being defended well...so many options with high skilled RB.

[NorthHawk]

Thats a good take NH. Not sure if you are leaning toward saying that our spread offense is going to see a surge in using RB as catch targets...who are you taking targets away from?? DK? Lockett? using JSN as a decoy? Fant as a decoy? I see Geno as a good distributor of passes but no real serious push to get RB involved at the expense of the many weapons assembled in Geno's toolbox. My take is that this additional viability of getting RB in space just allows Shane Waldron the ability and luxury to design plays to his hearts content. We can strike a deciding blow from almost any area of the field not being defended well...so many options with high skilled RB.

In the new offenses, runs are replaced by throwing to the RBs. And if WRs do take a hit, it's spread amongst all of them. It's another option that the Defenses have to prepare for and defend against. If it's successful, then the WRs benefit from more single coverages, which is to their advantage.
Keeping defenses off balance and unsure what's coming can be a big part of an offenses success. Adding a RB that isn't just a runner but a multi threat helps in keeping the defense honest and hopefully hesitate that split second before committing to a play.