RB/WR Balanced Talent Infusion

[tarlhawk]

RB/WR rooms get instant infusion of talent...making Geno's job easier. Last year when Rashaad Penny made an early exit it left a gaping hole for our RB room. Kenneth Walker went from mentored to featured and answered the call in a big way...immediately showing that a balanced running attack/ passing attack makes life so much easier for your QB and team overall. Getting dinged up a bit from heavy use exposed the reality that there was significant drop-off when Walker was out of action. Travis Homer and DJ Dallas played with a lot of heart but becoming feature backs instead of helping Walker catch his breath was not "in the cards" and teams didn't have to "stack" the box. Strong O-Line play is almost in synch with clutch RB play...they feed off each others energy.

Addressing this "weakness" especially after Penny and Homer left for greener pastures was a hidden need. Opponents rushing attacks only get stronger as negative time of possession takes its toll on our D-Line mid to late second half.

High percentage running/passing plays keep the chains moving...keeping the other teams offense on the sidelines while establishing the ever important "RHYTHM" that keeps an offense humming. Replacing Penny and Homer are Zach Charbonnet and Kenny McIntosh. Zach and Kenny offer pass pro strengths and soft hands for quick dump-offs with elusive wriggle/power combo to pile up yards after catch (evading initial contact). Zach has "take it to the bank" burst while McIntosh has quick cut ability with break/evade tackle talent to move the chains even if he lacks the Big Gain Burst of Walker/Charbonnet. DJ Walker has play tested durability to stay on the 53 man roster and still holds a leg up on Kick-off returns...but McIntosh represents a real roster threat in potential. Our 53 man roster faces serious competition/churn ...requiring what can I do NOW...not what have I done already.

Addressing 3rd down efficiency and the unbalance of time of possession we added a WR1c option disguised as a WR3 slot with Jaxon Smith-Njigba a mid field "assassin" who blends into a 4 headed hydra with DK/Lockett/Fant in bunch or spread formations...Shane Waldron has serious weapons for Geno to execute a growing/branching playbook with.

An improving O-Line with solid depth pieces (Olusaegun Oluwatimi-Center/ Anthony Bradford-Guard) offers power and athleticism cohesion with an effective TE triad (Fant/Dissly/Parkinson) ...to aid pass pro/run blocking schemes. This offensive improvement is "under the hood" awaiting fine tuning by our O-Line Coach Andy Dickerson.

Our off season dreaming is starting to take form! Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

I’ve been a proponent for drafting a RB early for years. A team whose Offense requires a good run game to be efficient can’t risk only one good RB on the team. We got by in the early years with Marshawn because he was durable, but most are not. We haven’t really had a dependable run game since he left because there was such a drop off from the starter to the backup. As well, we kept RBs that had proven they couldn’t stay on the field. Bad luck for them, but it should have been addressed earlier when we had the chance to select Chubb and then Taylor. So this is not a “hidden” need. It’s been a need for years.

As it turns out, we may also add another dimension to our Offense in the form of using the RBs in the passing attack. Think how the Saints use Kamara and we could have a more potent attack or at least more options to keep the Defense off balance.

[Old but Slow]

Another factor in the running back situation is that McIntosh has been described as the best pass catching RB in the class. He was regularly split out like a WR at Georgia and can be nifty in the open field despite his lack of top end speed. He could be used as a Swiss army knife, at running back on one play and wide receiver the next.

Also true of Charbonnet and McIntosh is the tendency to seek contact rather than being ushered out of bounds on edge plays. It reminds me of Marshawn and Thomas Rawls.

[tarlhawk]

Another factor in the running back situation is that McIntosh has been described as the best pass catching RB in the class. He was regularly split out like a WR at Georgia and can be nifty in the open field despite his lack of top end speed. He could be used as a Swiss army knife, at running back on one play and wide receiver the next.

Also true of Charbonnet and McIntosh is the tendency to seek contact rather than being ushered out of bounds on edge plays. It reminds me of Marshawn and Thomas Rawls.

You honed in on the receiving aspect of Kenny McIntosh. A "3rd down back" needs 3 talents ...(1) willing to take on the "uncovered/stunting" blitzer during Pass Pro snaps. (2) Effective running on "draw plays" (3) be an effective "soft hands" receiving threat when "leaked" into flat/curl routes.

Travis Homer excelled in the first two skills. As Homers replacement McIntosh offers all 3 RB3 skills and just like Homer had impact on Special Teams...Kenny offers the full package (swiss army knife) including Kickoff/Punt return skills and as you pointed out he delivers a wallop on contact if he hasn't juked away his first would be tackler...his nickname at Georgia was "Blueprint" and I've heard him referred to as "Jukebox" on other sites.

7th round because of 4.6 speed at combine...but his film tape shows excellent game speed with vision and shiftiness...so a 3rd rounder falling into our laps in the 7th? (Yes Please!) Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

Although it's nice to have, speed isn't everything for a RB to be good. How he reacts after being hit and if he knows where the holes are to exploit are far more important.
Understanding the passing game is an added bonus. It adds an additional dimension to the Offense that we haven't had in a long time, and never under Pete.

[tarlhawk]

We had a recent Seahawk interview which revealed our scouting team and those who have influence on our draft input to John Scneider liked what they saw on tape with McIntosh!

Matt Berry Senior Director of Player Personnel
"He's a guy that hit 21.4 miles per hour on tape in the fall and then did not work out well," Berry said. "For whatever reason, his spring from a combine-testing standpoint didn't go well and I think that's what hit him."

[NorthHawk]

Wow. 21.4 is pretty fast. Good luck for us as he might turn out to be a real bonus pick! He sure sounds like he's motivated.

[Old but Slow]

McIntosh was the steal of the draft. I did not even include him in my draft prediction because I knew he would be gone by the end of the 3d round. When he was selected I ripped off my clothes and danced all over the house. Well, actually I smiled, raised my glass, and mentally danced, etc.

[RiverDog]

McIntosh was the steal of the draft. I did not even include him in my draft prediction because I knew he would be gone by the end of the 3d round. When he was selected I ripped off my clothes and danced all over the house. Well, actually I smiled, raised my glass, and mentally danced, etc.

No one in this forum can get me to laugh like you can!

[govandals]

I'll go out on a pretty sturdy looking limb and say this is the most talented RB/WR group in Seahawks history. Lots of frontline talent and lots of depth.

[RiverDog]

I'll go out on a pretty sturdy looking limb and say this is the most talented RB/WR group in Seahawks history. Lots of frontline talent and lots of depth.

If you toss in running backs as you have, I'd agree, but Lockett and Metcalf can't top Largent and Blades.

[Oly]

If you toss in running backs as you have, I'd agree, but Lockett and Metcalf can't top Largent and Blades.

My initial reaction was to agree, but I went back and looked and the stats don't back that up. Sure, it was a different era and comparing stats is tough, but their two years together were before Blades' peak and after Largent's.

Combined stats in 88 and 89:
1988: 79 catches, 1327 yards, 10 TD (pretty evenly split production)
1989: 105 catches, 1466 yards, 8 TD (2/3 of this was from Blades)

If you ignore where they were at in their careers and think of their talent level in the abstract, then those years of Largent/Blades/Warner/Williams (with Skanski as WR3) were probably the most talented WR/RB combos in team history.

I don't think it would take much for this year's group to be more talented though, and I can see why vandal would go out on that limb. I can easily see this year being more talented. Last year both DK and Tyler were over 1k yards and Fant had more production than the TEs in 88 and 89. And Walker's production last year matched Warner's best year in 88/89. For me, it's the under-appreciated JL Williams that gives those 80s offenses the edge. But if JSN can be as productive in the slot as I think he'll be, that will push this group over that 80s group.

This was a fun trip down memory lane. It's been a long time since I thought about Paul Skanski.

[RiverDog]

If you toss in running backs as you have, I'd agree, but Lockett and Metcalf can't top Largent and Blades.

My initial reaction was to agree, but I went back and looked and the stats don't back that up. Sure, it was a different era and comparing stats is tough, but their two years together were before Blades' peak and after Largent's.

Combined stats in 88 and 89:
1988: 79 catches, 1327 yards, 10 TD (pretty evenly split production)
1989: 105 catches, 1466 yards, 8 TD (2/3 of this was from Blades)

If you ignore where they were at in their careers and think of their talent level in the abstract, then those years of Largent/Blades/Warner/Williams (with Skanski as WR3) were probably the most talented WR/RB combos in team history.

I don't think it would take much for this year's group to be more talented though, and I can see why vandal would go out on that limb. I can easily see this year being more talented. Last year both DK and Tyler were over 1k yards and Fant had more production than the TEs in 88 and 89. And Walker's production last year matched Warner's best year in 88/89. For me, it's the under-appreciated JL Williams that gives those 80s offenses the edge. But if JSN can be as productive in the slot as I think he'll be, that will push this group over that 80s group.

This was a fun trip down memory lane. It's been a long time since I thought about Paul Skanski.

Here's a great example of why I don't like comparing players from different eras, especially when you use raw stats as your primary method of measurement.

As we all know, the game has changed dramatically over the past 35 years when Largent and Blades played. The league is much more pass happy than it was in the 80's, and in 2022, DK, Tyler, and Fant were beneficiaries of a 17 game season. making statistical comparisons apples vs. oranges. Heck, there are some stats kept today, like targets, that they didn't track back in the 80's.

If you're going to compare receivers statistically, you need to use their standing vs. their contemporaries. In 1989, Blades was the 8th ranked receiver in yardage. Last season, neither Metcalf or Lockett were in the top 10 in receiving yardage and neither were selected to a Pro Bowl. Blades was selected to a Pro Bowl in 1989, the only year he and Largent played together.

In addition, catching passes is just one aspect of the WR position. Largent in particular was a much better blocker than either Lockett or Metcalf.

With regards to Curt Warner, he was never the same back after he returned from knee surgery. Had he been the beneficiary of today's surgical procedures, he might have had a more productive career.

[tarlhawk]

Dareke Young has immense athleticism coupled with LB size (like DK). Tariq (the Freak) is a converted WR while Dareke is a WR blend of DK/Riq in his athleticism/size.

DK (6'3" 228) 34.9" arm length with 4.33 speed (40 yd dash)/ 40.5"(vert)/ 1.48 (10 yd split) with 4.5 (shuttle) and 7.38 (3 cone).

Dareke (6'2" 224) 32 5/8" arm length with 4.44 speed (40 yd dash)/ 37"(vert)/ 1.54 (10 yd split) with 4.19 (shuttle) and 6.88 (3 cone).

Woolen (6'4" 205) 33 5/8" arm length with 4.26 speed (40 yd dash)/ 42"(vert)/ 1.47 (10 yd split) with 4.3 (shuttle) and 7.10 (3 cone).

DK also had 27 reps of 225lbs in bench press while Dareke had 22 reps compared to Tariq who had 12 reps.

Dareke is waiting in the wings while being a ST demon (as if DK/Tyriq were playing on ST) Go Hawks

[RiverDog]

Dareke Young has immense athleticism coupled with LB size (like DK). Tariq (the Freak) is a converted WR while Dareke is a WR blend of DK/Riq in his athleticism/size.

DK (6'3" 228) 34.9" arm length with 4.33 speed (40 yd dash)/ 40.5"(vert)/ 1.48 (10 yd split) with 4.5 (shuttle) and 7.38 (3 cone).

Dareke (6'2" 224) 32 5/8" arm length with 4.44 speed (40 yd dash)/ 37"(vert)/ 1.54 (10 yd split) with 4.19 (shuttle) and 6.88 (3 cone).

Woolen (6'4" 205) 33 5/8" arm length with 4.26 speed (40 yd dash)/ 42"(vert)/ 1.47 (10 yd split) with 4.3 (shuttle) and 7.10 (3 cone).

DK also had 27 reps of 225lbs in bench press while Dareke had 22 reps compared to Tariq who had 12 reps.

Dareke is waiting in the wings while being a ST demon (as if DK/Tyriq were playing on ST) Go Hawks

I'm not too enamored with a player's physical metrics, especially when it comes to WR's pumping iron. There's an argument that being too muscular compromises a player's flexibility, an especially important attribute for a WR.

[NorthHawk]

I think it's better to look at actual production relative to their peers than physical traits. The new Offense might give us a better handle on how good our receiving corps is. And with Lockett passing 30, his best years are past him even if he is still productive but at a lesser level.
Potential doesn't mean much if it doesn't produce results.

[tarlhawk]

I'm not too enamored with a player's physical metrics, especially when it comes to WR's pumping iron. There's an argument that being too muscular compromises a player's flexibility, an especially important attribute for a WR.

Upper body strength in a tall guy adds to their ability to make contested catches. His shuttle time reflects flexibility/burst and balance while the 3 cone reflects agility and change of direction. The shuttle and 3 cone are the two metrics that reflect the elite ability of JSN to get open (3.93 shuttle/6.57 3 cone)

[tarlhawk]

I think it's better to look at actual production relative to their peers than physical traits. The new Offense might give us a better handle on how good our receiving corps is. And with Lockett passing 30, his best years are past him even if he is still productive but at a lesser level.
Potential doesn't mean much if it doesn't produce results.

His transforming potential into actual production is more a limit of who he plays behind rather than his actual development. In the NFL its all about opportunity...in a star studded WR room he must bide his time while excelling on special teams. His great athletic traits coupled with having WR coach Sanjay Lal as a mentor is how a 7th rd pick from a small collage even gains the opportunity to wait while claiming a spot on the 53 man roster. Shane Waldron has been finding ways to get more plays for Dareke. My point in discussing him was merely to show the real depth in our WR room (part of the focus in this post) Go Hawks

[RiverDog]

I'm not too enamored with a player's physical metrics, especially when it comes to WR's pumping iron. There's an argument that being too muscular compromises a player's flexibility, an especially important attribute for a WR.

Upper body strength in a tall guy adds to their ability to make contested catches. His shuttle time reflects flexibility/burst and balance while the 3 cone reflects agility and change of direction.

I understand that argument. I'm just saying that there are several schools of thought about what physical traits are most desirable for a wide receiver. Being all buffed out might help give a receiver an advantage a situation such as you're referring to but not in another that requires that they contort their body in an otherwise awkward position to make a catch.

I don't think that Cooper Kupp will be going to very many interviews shirtless, but I'd take him at full health over Metcalf every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[NorthHawk]

His transforming potential into actual production is more a limit of who he plays behind rather than his actual development. In the NFL its all about opportunity...in a star studded WR room he must bide his time while excelling on special teams. His great athletic traits coupled with having WR coach Sanjay Lal as a mentor is how a 7th rd pick from a small collage even gains the opportunity to wait while claiming a spot on the 53 man roster. Shane Waldron has been finding ways to get more plays for Dareke. My point in discussing him was merely to show the real depth in our WR room (part of the focus in this post) Go Hawk

But we really only know DK and Lockett at this point. The others including Dareke Young are still in the potential phase of their careers.
I think JSN will be better than Young and will get more chances, but that's just an opinion. If we go with 2 TE's then Young won't get the chance to show much of his abilities.
So evaluating what we have is limited to DK and Lockett in the pass game. And to compare the rest of the roster with previous years is really making a comparison between known production and potential production.

[Oly]

Here's a great example of why I don't like comparing players from different eras, especially when you use raw stats as your primary method of measurement.

As we all know, the game has changed dramatically over the past 35 years when Largent and Blades played. The league is much more pass happy than it was in the 80's, and in 2022, DK, Tyler, and Fant were beneficiaries of a 17 game season. making statistical comparisons apples vs. oranges. Heck, there are some stats kept today, like targets, that they didn't track back in the 80's.

If you're going to compare receivers statistically, you need to use their standing vs. their contemporaries. In 1989, Blades was the 8th ranked receiver in yardage. Last season, neither Metcalf or Lockett were in the top 10 in receiving yardage and neither were selected to a Pro Bowl. Blades was selected to a Pro Bowl in 1989, the only year he and Largent played together.

In addition, catching passes is just one aspect of the WR position. Largent in particular was a much better blocker than either Lockett or Metcalf.

With regards to Curt Warner, he was never the same back after he returned from knee surgery. Had he been the beneficiary of today's surgical procedures, he might have had a more productive career.

I certainly won't argue about the apples-to-oranges comparison, especially for WRs. And good point about Largent's blocking. I did, after all, agree with you that as things stand now, I put that group over the current group.

But Largent went 28 catches for 403 yards and 3 TD in 1989, so if you're going to talk about Blades' #8 ranking it's going to be brought down by the season in which "Old but Slow" became more reality for Largent than joke. Sure, neither Lockett nor DK were in the top 10, but that's in large part because they were splitting opportunities. They're definitely in the top 5 most talented WR tandems in the league. So they're closer than I think you're willing to accept, close enough that they could be the best with continued growth from Walker/DK and just one of JSN/Charbonnet/McIntosh emerging as a weapon.

[RiverDog]

I certainly won't argue about the apples-to-oranges comparison, especially for WRs. And good point about Largent's blocking. I did, after all, agree with you that as things stand now, I put that group over the current group.

But Largent went 28 catches for 403 yards and 3 TD in 1989, so if you're going to talk about Blades' #8 ranking it's going to be brought down by the season in which "Old but Slow" became more reality for Largent than joke. Sure, neither Lockett nor DK were in the top 10, but that's in large part because they were splitting opportunities. They're definitely in the top 5 most talented WR tandems in the league. So they're closer than I think you're willing to accept, close enough that they could be the best with continued growth from Walker/DK and just one of JSN/Charbonnet/McIntosh emerging as a weapon.

I don't want to appear argumentative as you are correct, this is one of the more talented WR corps we've ever had. However, if I had to pick a single position group around which to build a championship team, it wouldn't be wide receivers. They're more of a luxury than they are a necessity. We seemed to get by pretty well with a couple of undrafted free agent WR's named Baldwin and Kearse.

[Oly]

I don't want to appear argumentative as you are correct, this is one of the more talented WR corps we've ever had. However, if I had to pick a single position group around which to build a championship team, it wouldn't be wide receivers. They're more of a luxury than they are a necessity. We seemed to get by pretty well with a couple of undrafted free agent WR's named Baldwin and Kearse.

We're in total agreement there. The Eskridge over Humphreys pick two years ago is the most glaring recent example of building around the wrong position group.

[RiverDog]

I don't want to appear argumentative as you are correct, this is one of the more talented WR corps we've ever had. However, if I had to pick a single position group around which to build a championship team, it wouldn't be wide receivers. They're more of a luxury than they are a necessity. We seemed to get by pretty well with a couple of undrafted free agent WR's named Baldwin and Kearse.

We're in total agreement there. The Eskridge over Humphreys pick two years ago is the most glaring recent example of building around the wrong position group.

I think a lot of that was Pete thinking that we were just a player or two away from being a SB contender, so he didn't view the team as a rebuilding project. The 2021 season, his first losing season in 10 years, was a cold slap in the face, a wakeup call that said to him that we weren't as good as he thought we were, which resulted in a much different approach to the 2022 draft than in past drafts.

[tarlhawk]

It amazes me how our fan base(well...at least some of it) ignors the value of having one of THE best WR corps in the NFL. The key to the NFL formula for TV ratings is not a squelching defence...shutting down an NFL offense is anathema to what the NFL has been altering/tinkering with rules for... upsetting the balance toward Offense while shading Defense. This isn't new news...Richard Sherman in his latter years with us complained openly that WR were being spoon fed by rule changes. Why does it seem like there are always good receivers to be had in the draft? Because your college athletes know the best shot at landing an NFL draft selection is via WR...so if your best football youth are flooding the talent pool of college WR...why not relish when your team has gathered from the cream of that talent pool?

Russell benefited from Lockett and DK as deep ball threats just as they benefited from having a creative QB to be elusive enough to allow those deep passing routes to bear fruit. What happened when RW was traded? Geno gained a reputation for deep (20 yds+) passing acumen. The common element?? Our dynamic WR room. Lockett's age is often sighted as the recent reason for him being so undervalued in recent years by "expert" pundits. Tyler is still dangerous in man coverage where the opponent is bracketing DK with double coverage hedging their bet that Tyler is the lesser of two powder keg threats. Tyler has "locked on concentration" and soft hands making numerous highlight reel catches as his quickness and burst create many coverage mismatches.


As dangerous a threat that Tyler is...his small frame would seem a constant target for a defenses most physical safety/corner...but no that "guy" must be used to combat DK who is only getting better with crisper routes and breaking in and out of those routes. WR Coach Sanjay Lal raves about DK being able to apply what he is being taught in practices and translating it on the field with mirror like precision.


Our WRs have been forcing teams to deploy both safeties into deep coverage...leaving a "light" box for our RB to explore. Our offense is very close to being a top 5 Offense. The arrival of Jaxon Smith-Njigba will be nightmarish for our opponents...he is not limited to the slot...but he THRIVES in the slot! Lined up alongside Lockett you get elusive precise routes that defy any attempts to keep a game low scoring. Geno has the accuracy and the arm talent to "key" on the best receiving mismatch for quick strikes.


As our offensive line develops better pass pro overall then Geno has the skills to use that "extra" time in the pocket to make less hurried throws. The RB room is a defenses "best friend"...it balances the game clock by sharing constant movement of the chains with the temptation of up tempo deep strikes...allowing the defense to have "fresh legs" longer into games.


Longer timed offensive drives are the biggest factor in limiting the impact of an opponents rushing attack...especially if the score gets run up early in a game and the other teams running game gets abandoned. I know this post is filled with "hype" that needs to actually "show up" in games but off season is the time to have bold dreams! Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

That extra time isn't as necessary in this Offense as it was in the Peteball Offense of the past where many if not most of the pass patterns were of a deeper nature.
Pete characterized how that Offense worked in one of his first press conferences when asked how the Offense would look and he said we are going to pound the rock and throw for chunk yardage.
This Offense takes advantage of mismatches all over the field and uses quick reads and motion for the QB to determine those mismatches early. It also uses the horizontal game with more jet sweep type of plays and runs outside the Tackles as well as using the RBs in the pass game. It's a much more varied approach to attacking the opposing Defense and should be pretty good with all of the options in both the run and pass game now on the table. Providing of course that Pete doesn't pull back the reins and stifle it.

[RiverDog]

It amazes me how our fan base(well...at least some of it) ignors the value of having one of THE best WR corps in the NFL.

It's not necessary to refer to my opinions in the third person. I promise that I won't get upset or take offense if you call me out on my take or offer an opposing one.

Russell benefited from Lockett and DK as deep ball threats just as they benefited from having a creative QB to be elusive enough to allow those deep passing routes to bear fruit. What happened when RW was traded? Geno gained a reputation for deep (20 yds+) passing acumen. The common element?? Our dynamic WR room. Lockett's age is often sighted as the recent reason for him being so undervalued in recent years by "expert" pundits. Tyler is still dangerous in man coverage where the opponent is bracketing DK with double coverage hedging their bet that Tyler is the lesser of two powder keg threats. Tyler has "locked on concentration" and soft hands making numerous highlight reel catches as his quickness and burst create many coverage mismatches.

At the risk of turning this into another Russell Wilson thread, a somewhat less of a risk now that HT is no longer with us, my take is that Metcalf hurt Russell as having such a big, speedy deep threat for the first time in his career cause him to look for the home run ball and bypass the short and intermediate receivers and concentrating on moving the chains. Russell himself talked openly about him and Metcalf forming a historic combo like Montana-Rice. It resulted in Russell's holding onto the ball too long, a horrible 3rd down completion percentage, and taking too many sacks.

[tarlhawk]

It's not necessary to refer to my opinions in the third person. I promise that I won't get upset or take offense if you call me out on my take or offer an opposing one.

At the risk of turning this into another Russell Wilson thread, a somewhat less of a risk now that HT is no longer with us, my take is that Metcalf hurt Russell as having such a big, speedy deep threat for the first time in his career cause him to look for the home run ball and bypass the short and intermediate receivers and concentrating on moving the chains. Russell himself talked openly about him and Metcalf forming a historic combo like Montana-Rice. It resulted in Russell's holding onto the ball too long, a horrible 3rd down completion percentage, and taking too many sacks.

Fair and valid points. I didn't "need" to single you out and you did recognize it was your post that prompted my comment...but you are not alone for there are many who share your opinion...many of "them" were so eager to offer up DK for draft picks...and "willing" to let him go before paying for his talent level.


Lockett and Baldwin were involved in RW's tendencies to throw deep...long before the arrival of DK. Shorter statured QB often scramble to get better passing lanes and view from outside the pocket...this scrambling in and of itself allows deeper routes to play out as opposed to your taller traditional (pure pocket) QB who releases quicker on short to mid field routes to avoid pocket collapse.


Your pocket QBs get roll outs to avoid a more aggressive pass rush and to air it out if their roll out buys them more time for deeper routes to develop. DK and Lockett both have the ability to "turn on the jets" and reward a deeper pass play...Shane Waldron mixes in the play calling and Pete trusts his input is reflected in Shane's game day playbook.


RW was only "forced" to stay in the pocket the year he wore his leg brace...and he did pretty good...so it offers some hope to Denver fans knowing RW is not as mobile. Geno with the larger field open with a spread offense molded to his strengths has a chance to get even better than "first half" Geno. Go Hawks

[RiverDog]

Lockett and Baldwin were involved in RW's tendencies to throw deep...long before the arrival of DK. Shorter statured QB often scramble to get better passing lanes and view from outside the pocket...this scrambling in and of itself allows deeper routes to play out as opposed to your taller traditional (pure pocket) QB who releases quicker on short to mid field routes to avoid pocket collapse.

Doug Baldwin's career yards per catch was 13.3, which would suggest that he wasn't much of a deep threat. Just picking a random year, 2015, Baldwin ranked 43rd in yards per catch amongst players with 30+ receptions.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/14221/doug-baldwin
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_ ... n/dir/desc

Ironically, Tyler Lockett's career yards per catch are exactly the same as Baldwin's, 13.3.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... ckTy00.htm

In Metcalf's two seasons with Russell, 2020 and 2021, he averaged 15.5 and 15.7 yards per catch. Last season with Geno pitching the rock, Metcalf averaged just 11.6 yards per catch, a 25% reduction from his two year average with Russell.

https://www.nfl.com/players/d-k-metcalf/stats/

I'll let you do the analysis of that information.

[tarlhawk]

Doug Baldwin's career yards per catch was 13.3, which would suggest that he wasn't much of a deep threat. Just picking a random year, 2015, Baldwin ranked 43rd in yards per catch amongst players with 30+ receptions.

Ironically, Tyler Lockett's career yards per catch are exactly the same as Baldwin's, 13.3.

In Metcalf's two seasons with Russell, 2020 and 2021, he averaged 15.5 and 15.7 yards per catch. Last season with Geno pitching the rock, Metcalf averaged just 11.6 yards per catch, a 25% reduction from his two year average with Russell.

I'll let you do the analysis of that information.

The two years you reference for RW/DK were actually 2019/2020. In 2021 an injured RW with 4 games of Geno thrown in had DK catching at a 12.9 ypc clip while Tyler thrived at a higher avg of 16.1 ypc avg. Both DK and NOE had drop offs in ypc in 2022 (11.6 and 12.3 respectively) I'll offer two explanations...(1) more 2 high safety or bracketed double teaming dropped DK's high 15.5/15.7(2019/2020) avg down to 12.7/11.2(2021/2022) avg as defenses focused on DK allowing Lockett to snag 16.1/12.3 avg for 2021/2022. The second reason is more obvious as Geno throws to more short/mid range targets in addition to deep passes. RW didn't or wouldn't throw as much "shorter stuff". Avg depth of target(whether caught or not) also reflects a drop off for both WR from 2021 to 2022...DK was 12.7/Lockett 14.6 in 2021 while in 2022 it was DK 11.2/Lockett 10.6.

Over in Denver Jeudy had 14.5 (up from 12.3 in 2021) while Sutton had no change 12.95 (13) (similar 13.37 (13) in 2021 but a change in dropped passes and interceptions allowed for both was an increase (2021 Jeudy dropped 1 pass and had 1 of his targets intercepted but in 2022 he dropped 5 passes giving away 2 int) while Courtland Sutton dropped 3 passes with 3 int in 2021 but in 2022 he dropped 9 passes allowing 4 int when targeted)

Both QB very different but RW loves the deep ball even without DK. Go Hawks

[tarlhawk]

As for Doug Baldwin not being much of a deep threat...you kinda countered your own view point by showing career wise Doug Baldwin and Tyler Lockett have same 13.3 avg and Lockett consistently has burned single coverage for big gains...similar to "pedestrian" Doug (why did critics give Baldwin a bigger chip than the one he carried by going undrafted?). The other characteristic Baldwin and Lockett shared was that both WR were noted as having trusted chemistry with RW.

[tarlhawk]

Early off season camp/OTA results have confirmed we have something special in Jaxon Smith-Njigba and Zach Charbonnet. JSN and our 1rst rd pick on the defensive side Spoon have been flashing the kind of competition that reflects both as being highly skilled as advertised.

Dee Eskridge is now the "forgotten man" (except by those who snipe at him being selected when Creed was still available at center)...yet many of his own players (especially Geno and DK) have been impressed with Dee clearly looking like he's over the injury bug that has pinned him down thus far. My own personal favorite will be how the team finds a way to blend in our 7th rd "surprise" Kenny McIntosh.
Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

I have high hopes for JSN and Zach, but I'm thinking that McIntosh might be the surprise of the draft class.
I think he's one of those players who plays better and faster than he tests and he can be used in the pass game in maybe a Deebo Samuel type of role.

[Old but Slow]

It is amusing to hear comments about how a QB and a WR have special connection. Largent had a special connection with every QB he played with, as did Baldwin and now Lockett. Why? Because those guys are precise route runners. They are where they are supposed to be all the time, so the QB can find them easily. It is also what makes a guy like Jaxon S-J so valuable despite the lack of great speed or size.

[tarlhawk]

It is amusing to hear comments about how a QB and a WR have special connection. Largent had a special connection with every QB he played with, as did Baldwin and now Lockett. Why? Because those guys are precise route runners. They are where they are supposed to be all the time, so the QB can find them easily. It is also what makes a guy like Jaxon S-J so valuable despite the lack of great speed or size.

Yes I agree with your comments of "connection" being assimilated by good WR for the routes being called...my connection "reference" is how well Doug and Tyler broke off their routes and made themselves available consistently to a QB they could seldom see scrambling in peril. Baldwin joked how often it was pure trust on his part to break for open space looking to track the ball which would "suddenly" appear from a direction unseen.

[NorthHawk]

That 'trust' or whatever it is comes from hours in the scramble drill in practice. It doesn't just happen but some players understand it better than others.

[tarlhawk]

That 'trust' or whatever it is comes from hours in the scramble drill in practice. It doesn't just happen but some players understand it better than others.

Agreed...it just came into play more with RW scrambling to buy time for his deeper routes to unfold.

[NorthHawk]

And they had a lot of practice in games, too with Wilson scrambling or just leaving the pocket.

[tarlhawk]

The supporting strength of our RB room is the "elevation' of replacing our RB2/RB3 positions. The "sharing"/backing up of RB2 last year was the high impact/limited availability of Rashaad Penny with always available/low impact of DJ Dallas. Zach Charbonnet strengthens that role in spades...just a "notch" below the expectations of a 2nd yr Kenneth Walker III.

The steady Pass Pro and occasional QB option/RB3 draw play left us ...as Homer found greener pastures. Kenny McIntosh as RB3 also has a luring ability to safely catch and run from slot/outside split positions...or perhaps the "dreaded" missing screen play our offense has played so poorly at forming. Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

The RB position in the NFL is changing from year to year.
We don't see as many dominating RBs as 5 years ago and that is less than 10 years ago. The position is now a more complete player who can be a weapon in the pass game, the motion game and the run game.
It's no longer a game of the QB handing the ball off and the RB pounding the rock. It's much more nuanced with a lot more deception. McIntosh and Charbonnet both come from college offenses that used that
type of schemes so they should help, as long as Pete doesn't restrict it.