Pete Carrols 3-4 Defense

[tarlhawk]

Pete Carrol is careful to identify elements of our version of the 3-4 Defense...often referring it to adaptions of modifying our familiar 4-3 formations with personnel usually associated with a 3-4 concept. What might he mean...and what is the concept of a "bear" defense that can blend an advantage in pass rush without sacrificing run defense?


Diving deep into the Bear Front
By Chris Pflum@RaptormkII Jun 17, 2020,

Identifying the Bear Front

When it comes to defensive fronts in football, the differences between two fronts can seem almost arbitrary. Sometimes it seems as though a player moves a couple feet to his left or right, the name of his position changes slightly, and all of a sudden it’s a different defense.

However, those little changes in alignment can have a big impact. Moving a lineman or linebacker, even a little, can drastically change the angles for offensive linemen.

When it comes to the Bear Front, there are two distinguishing characteristics which identify it. The first is defensive linemen lined up directly across (Heads Up) from the center and each guard. The second is a strong safety and a linebacker lined up on the line of scrimmage on the strong side of the offensive formation.

Why is it called the bear? ...and when Buddy Ryan featured it for the Chicago Bears it was known as the 46 Defense. Jersey #46 was worn by Doug Plank who played SS for the Bears and played up on the Line of Scrimmage Strong side (traditionally the right side of the Offense featuring the TE) The Edge played wide 9T next to Plank.

Plank was a favorite of Bears defensive coordinator Buddy Ryan for his hard hitting and aggressive style, so that he named his defense the "46 defense" after Plank's jersey number and his central position in the defense.[1]
Plank was considered one of the hardest hitting safeties in the game. That effort took a physical toll, and he retired before the Bears reached their peak in 1985.

Do you get the feeling this is the type of role to utilize Jamal Adams?...the "33 Hawk" defense?



The article was an interesting read and I summarise some of its salient points as :

By lining up your DT/NT/DT directly across the G/C/G you frustrate an offenses ability to double team one of your D-line to gain a gap advantage and this then allows the defense to create 5 man pass rush opportunities with 1 on 1 blocking. Centers are at a disadvantage against a NT without double team help from either guard. By preventing double teaming from the O-line interior you also keep your off ball LB "clean" to gain attack angles on running plays since this alignment normally forces run plays outside away from the interior "A and B Gaps" (fast moving "rangy" off ball LB become a plus).

Utilizing this 8 in the Box requires "sticky" man coverage from your remaining 3 members of your secondary...perhaps this was what we have in mind with drafting Devon Whetherspoon? Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

It's a theory for our team. We tried it last year with 'mixed results'.
But Pete's old 4-3 Under defense used to be a 4-3 but with 3-4 types of players.
The success of the DL will be if the DTs and NT can dominate. If a better IOL dominates then it won't be worth much and Adams? He will have a hard time playing the Doug Planck role because he can't stay healthy.

Maybe it will work, but for now I have to see it before accepting it as the answer and there was a suggestion during the off season that we might go back to the old Defense.
The worst thing we can do is be stuck between systems where some of the players don't know their assignments or have to think about them before acting.
The addition of talent will help but the youngsters will have some growing pains.
Let's hope for the best.

[tarlhawk]

We keep mixing in better personnel to improve our opportunity to be successful when we do use bear front principles. Getting Devin Bush who only missed one tackle who is a "monster" when kept "clean" is weighed against the better coverage skills of a departed Cody Barton. Spoon as an incoming rookie has drawn praise for his Man Coverage/play recognition that allows him to excel as a "sticky" corner. Dre'Mont Jones is expected to thrive if blocked in 1 on 1 pass pro. Jamal Adams with Julius Love insurance should be an upgrade from the departed exuberant Ryan Neal. Our blend of Uchenna/DT/Mafe/Derick Hall under the tutelage of our pass rush Specialist Coach (BT Jordan) should only improve from a respected top 10 position in NFL Team sacks...who cares about individual sack excellence if your team as a whole is exerting tremendous pressure on the opponents offensive Kingpin(QB)?

Mike Morris/Mario Edwards/Cameron Young rotating into the Def Interior with even more back-ups for the Edge/LB (Dareke Smith/Alton Robinson)...we have better pieces to shape whatever scheme (Front/Coverage) we deploy. Go Hawks

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

Word is Cam Young put on twenty pounds to weigh in at 320+ for rookie camp. "It gives me the ability to stay in my gap longer and hold those double teams for guys like Bobby Wagner to make plays." "It really gives me that opportunity to play the gap-and-a-half scheme."

I like hearing that. He's dedicated enough to put on the weight (the right way, I'm assuming), and he understands his role for the benefit of the team. If UDFA Robert Cooper can also contribute, they might just have a couple legit young NTs in the rotation.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2023/5/15/23 ... poona-ford

[obiken]

I have never liked the 3-4 and I never will! I like having 4 down lineman to stop the run, we got gashed last year and a lot of it was the 3-4 more than personnel, IMHO.

[Aseahawkfan]

I have never liked the 3-4 and I never will! I like having 4 down lineman to stop the run, we got gashed last year and a lot of it was the 3-4 more than personnel, IMHO.

We were getting gashed when using the 4-3. To me it is always talent. We haven't had the talent for a good defense for years due to bad drafting, free agent signings, and trades that didn't work out. D-line still don't look solid, but you can find some interior fat bodies later in drafts. We stocked up one some good positions this last draft. Our secondary should be as strong as its been in years with Witherspoon and Woolen on the outside.

[NorthHawk]

Word is Cam Young put on twenty pounds to weigh in at 320+ for rookie camp. "It gives me the ability to stay in my gap longer and hold those double teams for guys like Bobby Wagner to make plays." "It really gives me that opportunity to play the gap-and-a-half scheme."

I like hearing that. He's dedicated enough to put on the weight (the right way, I'm assuming), and he understands his role for the benefit of the team. If UDFA Robert Cooper can also contribute, they might just have a couple legit young NTs in the rotation.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2023/5/15/23 ... poona-ford

It makes me wonder if he didn’t slim down for the Combine and pro day like a lot of players do so they can test better. His natural playing weight might be in the 315 - 320 range.

[Aseahawkfan]

Cam a 5th round pick, but if he can be a Mebane I would be ecstatic. Mebane was the last fat body we had that was great against the run and nearly unmovable. He didn't have much pass rusher, but he was amazing at holding his gap and opening things up for our other guys.

I hope Jarran Reed still has some gas in the tank. He was looking promising.

[govandals]

I prefer the 4-3 as well. Regarding Cameron Young, I have heard him comped to Ahtyba Rubin. I though Rubin played well in his couple years here.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

If he's a Mebane or Rubin level, he'll be more than serviceable, and I'll be happy. Seems he was slotted late because his pass rushing is non-existent. His draft profile says "he does the dirty work to allow linebackers to flow freely." That's exactly what this defense needs. "he'll stick as a dirty work fighter who helps everyone else crank up the glory stats." is another pre draft assessment. I love the head-down-ass-up-bring-your-lunch-pail-to-work type players.

[NorthHawk]

If he's a Mebane or Rubin level, he'll be more than serviceable, and I'll be happy. Seems he was slotted late because his pass rushing is non-existent. His draft profile says "he does the dirty work to allow linebackers to flow freely." That's exactly what this defense needs. "he'll stick as a dirty work fighter who helps everyone else crank up the glory stats." is another pre draft assessment. I love the head-down-ass-up-bring-your-lunch-pail-to-work type players.

Our last two drafts have provided us with a lot of players like that. They are the building blocks teams need to actually challenge the top teams on a regular basis.

[tarlhawk]

The 4-3 Under defense shifts two LB to the strong side of a 4 man front but Seattle uses a hybrid version to blend this 4-3 formation using 3-4 personnel...found this online (Wickapedia) :

Seattle 4-3 hybrid defense

“Our end and nose and tackle are our three big guys," Quinn said. “So we are half 4-3, half 3-4. They have to be big enough and stout enough to play the run, and then when we go into nickel is when we move a guy like Bennett to defensive tackle or Bruce (Irvin) to a defensive end spot."
— Dan Quinn, Bob Condotta, Seattle Times

The Seattle 4-3 hybrid is a defense created by Pete Carroll and Dan Quinn and was used by the Seattle Seahawks to great success in the 2013 and 2014 seasons.[1] The defense has a four man defensive line, but incorporates defensive principles more commonly seen in three man lines. The defense has more specialized roles than most, and this allowed them to take advantage of "market inefficiencies", to use players that other defenses could not.[2] It also features a pass defense scheme that improves run defense.
In depth

The Seattle 4-3 hybrid defense is based on the 4-3 under front used heavily by Monte Kiffin.[3][4][n 1] Unlike the standard 4-3 under, in which all the defensive linemen employ 1 gap techniques, the Seattle variant has a split personality. In its best known form, half the line uses 3-4 two gap principles, while the other half acts like a one gap 4-3.[5][6]
Seattle 4-3 under reduced front. The two linemen to the left of the offensive center use a 1 gap technique, while the two to the right of the offensive center use a 2 gap technique. Left to right the linemen's roles are the Leo, the 3 tech, the nose tackle, and the big end.

Also unlike many defenses, where a defender on the right side is always on the right, the Seattle 4-3 shifts specific players to the strong side of the formation, as determined by the position of the tight end.[7] The strong side defensive end is also called the "big end". Other positions include the nose tackle, the 3 technique tackle, and the Leo, a defensive end - rush linebacker hybrid.[8] The big end and the nose tackle use a 2 gap technique, while the 3 technique and the Leo use a 1 gap technique.

This defensive front is usually coupled with a Cover 3 defensive backfield where a safety comes down to about linebacker depth.[9] This puts eight men close to the line of scrimmage. The combination of two 2 gap defensive linemen and "8 in the box" means the formation is powerful against the run. The Cover 3 as employed by Seattle 4-3 users also emphasizes the size of their defensive backs, with for example, Richard Sherman at 6' 3".[10]

To further defend against the run, the 4-3 under front can be reduced.[11] In a reduced front, the big end moves from the outside shoulder of the strong side tackle to the inside shoulder. It subsequently becomes much harder for an offense to run into the strong side B gap.

[NorthHawk]

You would think it would make it easier to transition to a 3-4, but the players didn't fit the scheme. It kind of tells us how poorly the talent was accumulated over the past 7 years in that they couldn't draft or sign in FA players that fit what they wanted to do. So now they've gone down the 3-4 road and it seems like the draft has given us a couple of players that do fit. They wanted to run Fangio's version of the 3-4, but it seems to me that he is successful because he has a real good feel about the players and their abilities and it's not just a system but his own perception of how to defend against an Offense and attack the QB in pass rushing. It's just something that makes some coaches better than others.
I hope we can pull off the change, but changing the DL can be a good first step.

[Aseahawkfan]

The defensive talent was bad for quite a while now. Some guys look like they may be turning the corner like Darryl Taylor. The coverage unit should be good next year unless Witherspoon has a steeper learning curve than I expect. Biggest concerns are still interior D-line and LBs. Fortunately if the other units step up, we can find a good fat boy or two and LBs as mid to late 1st to 3rd round picks or so. If things work out, I think we're one more draft away from an elite defense again if we can find great LBs and a fat boy that can anchor the interior line against the run.

The lack of quality LBs is why we're getting gouged on the sideline runs. If you don't have LBs that can cover a lot of ground quick to the edges, then you get gouged on those sideline runs. It don't matter if your fat boys hold the middle if the LBs and safeties aren't good enough to cut off the edge runs. Those gaps gotta close and we have to shut down outside runs or we'll still have a weakness. Bobby, KJ, Bruce, and Kam were awesome at not letting anything around the sides.

[NorthHawk]

I'm not sure what they are going to do at LB. There is talk of a 3-3-5 and some of 3-2-6 alignments so LB might not be a critical piece.
I agree with you about another good draft before we move from pretenders to contenders and a full year of seasoning for them. That would put us in the 2024 or 2025 season. We'll need another dominant WR then, too as Lockett will be nearing the end of his career, but with a real good QB, we can make up the difference.

[Old but Slow]

Speaking to our defense at the edges, as in sweeps and screens, we were spoiled with K J Wright and his ability to diagnose and fill. When one player can rule an area of the defense, it frees up the other players to cover other responsibilities. We have been unable to replace him and have had to rely on defensive backs to cover wide, which is weakening. The perceived tendency to rely less on linebackers seems more to address the talents available rather than the scheme. K J Wrights are hard to come by.

[tarlhawk]

Speaking to our defense at the edges, as in sweeps and screens, we were spoiled with K J Wright and his ability to diagnose and fill. When one player can rule an area of the defense, it frees up the other players to cover other responsibilities. We have been unable to replace him and have had to rely on defensive backs to cover wide, which is weakening. The perceived tendency to rely less on linebackers seems more to address the talents available rather than the scheme. K J Wrights are hard to come by.

Indeed KJ (and Bobby) had a knack to diagnose and attack outside rushing attacks/screens. Brandon Browner and Sherman were willing tacklers and if Kam was in the area the RB was toast. Defensive speed becomes a plus when experience allows quicker read and react responses from your "posse". Our teams aggression and pursuit is on the mend with the influx of "better pieces". Go Hawks

[tarlhawk]

I used this info in a past post but it seems relevant here as well:

3 Technique (Dre'Mont Jones/Mario Edwards)
Arguably, the most well-known alignment technique is 3-tech. 3-technique is the premier interior pass-rushing alignment in every defense. While 4-3 defenses feature a player aligned in a 3-technique on most snaps, even 3-4 defenses use the alignment on most passing downs in today's NFL. Unlike the nose tackle, this alignment was designed to put the 3-tech one on one with an offensive lineman, allowing him to attack the B-gap (between guard and tackle), and the position’s success is predicated almost entirely on penetration. Whether defending the run or rushing the passer the 3-technique's focus is to wreak havoc in the backfield. Typically, the most athletic defensive interior players play this spot on passing downs regardless of their alignment on base downs.
3 Technique – An alignment and technique designation for interior defensive linemen. A 3 technique defensive lineman aligns on the outside shoulder of an offensive guard in the B-gap between the guard and tackle. The player is responsible for controlling and/or penetrating that gap (i.e., a one-gap player). The 3 technique is typically a defense’s premier interior pass rusher, relying on a combination of power, speed and quickness to beat potential double-teams and get to the quarterback. The 3 technique is commonly used in a 4-3 scheme.

0-Technique (3-4 NT) – Damon Harrison, New York Giants (Cam Young)

The 0-technique, also called the Nose Tackle (NT), plays directly over the center or “head-up” on him. The 0-Tech is generally responsible for defending both gaps between the center and the guard (A-gaps) and is most often used in a 3-4 defensive front. His main job is to shut the run game down from pushing directly up the middle. To do this, he must control the center while often drawing a double team from either guard. That is why the heaviest players in the NFL typically play NT in the 3-4 front. They use a combination of their massive size and strength to anchor and win against blockers at the point of attack.

4 or 5-Technique (3-4 DE) – J.J. Watt, Houston Texans (Jarran Reed/Mike Morris)

Over the past few seasons, arguably no position in football has changed more than the 3-4 defensive end spot. With multiple-front defenses becoming more popular, combined with the fact that nickel defense has become the new base, 3-4 DEs find themselves playing all over the defensive front. In its most traditional form, much like the 0-technique, the position was a two-gap player, lining up directly over the offensive tackle and being responsible for the B and C gaps on his side of the formation. These players are typically long and stout with a skill set that allows them to stack big offensive tackles and shed them in order to make a play on the ball carrier. As the league has developed into more of a pass-happy landscape, so the position has developed into one that plays the pass first and run second, and the amount of two-gapping done in today's league is a fraction of what it was ten or more years ago. These defensive ends are moved around across multiple techniques and are far more likely to be operating in one gap and looking to penetrate into the backfield.
7 & 6-Techniques (4-3 DE, 3-4 OLB) – Khalil Mack, Oakland Raiders

Another area the NFL has changed is the way defensive coordinators try to get pressure on the quarterback. In the past, the league’s best pass rushers rushed from the right side, the quarterbacks “blind side”. Thus, the 7-technique was often used by teams that run a 4-3 on the left side of the defense as the run-stuffing, power end and in some fronts, was referred to as the “Closed End”. This player lined up in the gap between the right tackle and tight end, or head up on a tight end (6-tech) and was considered the edge-setter in the run game. This player had to be big and strong enough to stuff the run but athletic enough to beat the right tackle to cause pressure. While this is still certainly true for some defenses in today’s NFL, offenses are far more balanced now, and right tackles have to deal with just as many of the league's most fearsome pass rushers as their blindside counterparts. In fact, most of the league's most devastating pass rushers are seen weekly going against right tackles one-on-one.


9-Technique (4-3 DE, 3-4 OLB) – Von Miller, Denver Broncos (Darryl Taylor/Uchenna Nwosu)

The 9-technique is primarily a pass-rush specialized alignment and is only used outside of those confines by a handful of teams. Players lined up in 9-technique are far outside of the offensive tackle and rely heavily on speed and bend to crush the edge. With no blockers near the 9-technique they are able to hit full speed before either making a distinctive move or using a low center of gravity to bend the edge flying by the offensive tackle. In many cases, the offensive tackle will anticipate the speed rush and over commit to the outside making themselves susceptible for an inside counter move. It is a technique that comes in and out of vogue in the NFL, because all of that extra width opens up significant space along the line that can be exploited by the offense.

[Old but Slow]

Thanks for that tarlhawk. Interestingly, there are variations within those variations as teams find different ways to utilize players with special skills. And there are players that can change roles. The Seahawks seem to have gathered a virtual stable of players who fit in a role of not quite a linebacker and not quite a defensive end, 250 to 280 pounds with quickness.

Part of me does not like the classification system as limiting. Taken to an absurd level I would just put my best 11 defensive players out there and get 'er done. To some extent that is what I see the team doing now. They have a lot of versatility, athleticism, and dog. I could see situations, like maybe 3d down and long when the whole front seven would be those mid-sized players.

[NorthHawk]

Seattle is trying to play Vic Fangio's version of the 3-4 as opposed to the old 3-4 systems of past years.
So these descriptions though valid and valuable might just be basic guidelines for the descriptions of the different techniques.
I don't know what the differences are, but writers and interviewees often refer to Fangio's system for the 3-4.
Since Fangio is in Miami, there will be some differences here I would suppose than if Fangio was our DC.