RIP Jimmy Brown

[RiverDog]

We lost a true legend today as HOF'er Jimmy Brown passed away at the age of 87.

I can trace my interest in football back to the days when Jim Brown was playing for the Cleveland Browns. I've always felt that he was the best player that I had ever seen, and I still feel that way, at least the best running back. He had what at that time was a unique combination of speed and power.

Brown retired at the peak of his career, and played just nine seasons. Along with Lee Marvin and Charles Bronson, he starred in one of my all time favorite war movies, The Dirty Dozen.

But he did have a darker side, had a few problems with women, and it makes you wonder how he would have fared in today's environment.

RIP Jim Brown.

[obiken]

No doubt, kids dont know what it was like to watch Superman, every Sat then tune into the real Superman on Sunday! He was the best football player of all time I feel. RIP Jim Brown.

[RiverDog]

No doubt, kids dont know what it was like to watch Superman, every Sat then tune into the real Superman on Sunday! He was the best football player of all time I feel. RIP Jim Brown.

I'm always telling myself that when you're 6-8 years old as I was when I first started watching football with my old man, you're very impressionable at that age, so Jimmy Brown might not have been as great as I remember him. But I can't erase what's been engrained into my memory.

[Aseahawkfan]

Jim Brown always seemed like one of the classic old school American tough guys. He embodied that on and off the field.

R.I.P. Jim Brown.

[RiverDog]

Another amazing fact I just heard is that Jim Brown never missed a game. Hard to believe, especially given the position he played and that he usually played on all 3 downs.

[tarlhawk]

May God rest his soul. I was aware of his NFL importance as a powerful RB who retired "early" (8 yrs) in 1965 to pursue a film career and never got the chance to see him play but I did see Walter Payton play in games and remember many references to him having a similar impact. As a Dolphin fan my closest "power" back was Larry Csonka. I liked Brown in the "Dirty Dozen" film and his film persona seemed to match his NFL character from most accounts I have seen and read. Like many legends he will be sorely missed...my prayers offered for his friends and family who knew him best. R.I.P.

[c_hawkbob]

Brown was filming 100 Rifles (with Raquel Welch, with whom he had Hollywood's first interracial love scene) and refused to leave to attend training camp and when the team insisted he retired. Can't say I blame him. If the team had been more accommodating he may have played on for a few more years.

[RiverDog]

Ironic that you mentioned Larry Czonka as both he and Brown attended the same college: Syracuse University. Zonk was a true fullback whereas Brown was sort of a hybrid halfback/fullback.

There was quite a controversy in the late 60's as he and another recently deceased actress, Racquel Welch, once posed for a photo and appeared to be in a nude embrace. It created quite a stir both because of the perceived nudity (Welch said that there was a towel between her and Brown) and due to the mixed-race nature of the photo.

I've seen Brown interviewed in a number of documentaries. I remember him saying that there was only one player that when they broke the huddle, he looked to see where he was lining up: Sam Huff.

[RiverDog]

Brown was filming 100 Rifles (with Raquel Welch, with whom he had Hollywood's first interracial love scene) and refused to leave to attend training camp and when the team insisted he retired. Can't say I blame him. If the team had been more accommodating he may have played on for a few more years.

Ahh, I should have read your post before I made mine! That's what I was referring to in my previous comments.

And you're right about his reason for retiring. Although I didn't recall the name of the film, I do remember (or read somewhere) that he got into a tiff with Paul Brown over his attending training camp.

[NorthHawk]

Best player ever. Maybe the best athlete the NFL has seen although Bo Jackson might have an argument.
Averaged 5.2 yards per carry and 100 yards/game over 9 years. He was also a standout Lacrosse player.
RIP Jim Brown and thank you for your contribution to the game we all enjoy.

[RiverDog]

Brown was filming 100 Rifles (with Raquel Welch, with whom he had Hollywood's first interracial love scene)...

Are you sure? I always thought that William Shatner and Nicole Nichols of Star Trek (the original series) held that distinction.

[NorthHawk]

I think it was the first Movie from Hollywood and Star Trek was the first TV event.

[c_hawkbob]

Brown was filming 100 Rifles (with Raquel Welch, with whom he had Hollywood's first interracial love scene)...

Are you sure? I always thought that William Shatner and Nicole Nichols of Star Trek (the original series) held that distinction.

That was a small screen kiss vs a silver screen full fledged love scene (even referred to as a 'sex scene' at the time).

[RiverDog]

Brown was filming 100 Rifles (with Raquel Welch, with whom he had Hollywood's first interracial love scene)...

Are you sure? I always thought that William Shatner and Nicole Nichols of Star Trek (the original series) held that distinction.

That was a small screen kiss vs a silver screen full fledged love scene (even referred to as a 'sex scene' at the time).

I never saw the movie "100 Rifles", so I'm sure you're right. I just remember that Captain Kirk's/Lt. Uhura's nationwide prime time lip lock was pretty damn controversial, and it occurred around the same period of time.

[tarlhawk]

Best player ever. Maybe the best athlete the NFL has seen although Bo Jackson might have an argument.
Averaged 5.2 yards per carry and 100 yards/game over 9 years. He was also a standout Lacrosse player.
RIP Jim Brown and thank you for your contribution to the game we all enjoy.

Your Bo Jackson mention stirred a couple memories...one bad from 1987 MNF (before I became a fan) and a good one as a Dolphin fan. In the 1987 reference I saw Bo have an explosive evening against Kenny Easley and Brian Bozworth. As for my Dolphin reference it was while Bo Jackson was finishing his time at Auburn...I saw him in one of the college all-star games back then Blue/Gray or East/ West and it was 3rd and goal and Bo Jackson got free with one man to beat but was stuffed. They tried again on 4th and goal and somehow got same isolation with only one man to beat...but Bo was stopped again. Afterwards I tried to get information on the linebacker from West Michigan who performed the heroics (John Offerdahl)...later in the draft I was elated to see Miami draft John Offerdahl to play MLB!

One more thing from the MNF game against the Raiders I noticed Oakland often used a split RB tandem of Bo Jackson and Marcus Allen in their backfield...Walker/Charbonnet maybe ?? Ha Ha not likely.

Sad to see the passing of the immortalized legend Jim Brown who played before I turned my attention to football. RIP

[Old but Slow]

Jim Brown was the best running back ever, in my mind. In trying to think of comps, Bo Jackson comes to mind for his athleticism, but Brown was more powerful. A better one is Marshawn, although on a smaller scale, more in style. Brown was an angry man, and it showed in his playing, and his willingness to dish out punishment to tacklers is much like Lynch. Watching him was like waiting for an explosion. RIP

[trents]

Syracuse was once known as running back U. They turned out not only Brown but Ernie Davis and Zonka.

[RiverDog]

It was much a different game back then. It wasn't the quarterback centric, sling the ball around 50 times a game like they do today. The running back was widely perceived to be the most important position on the field, which enhances the argument that he was the best player ever. Plus, there wasn't as much situational substitutions, meaning that the starters played a higher percentage of the snaps than they do nowadays. And despite his running style that ObS likened to Beast, Brown never missed a game due to injury.

[TriCitySam]

A world class abuser of women....

[RiverDog]

A world class abuser of women....

Very true. And I wonder how Brown would have fared had he lived in the contemporary era. Back in the 50's-70's, women were much more reluctant to file a complaint or press charges than they are nowadays. They'd call the police, report a crime, then not follow through, either being talked out of it by the police or not wanting to endure the embarrassment of having to testify against them or face them in court and/or the social stigma attached with being a victim of a sex crime. That somewhat exists in today's society, but not nearly to the same extent that it did 50-60 years ago.

But on the other hand, Brown did make some positive contributions to our society, including his work on civil rights issues and his crusade against gang violence, so at least to some degree, it balances out the human flaws he had. Certainly, his loved ones are worth our condolences.

Edit: I just came across a very good article about Jimmy Brown that I thought you folks would be interested in:

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/jim-brown/

[Aseahawkfan]

Very true. And I wonder how Brown would have fared had he lived in the contemporary era. Back in the 50's-70's, women were much more reluctant to file a complaint or press charges than they are nowadays. They'd call the police, report a crime, then not follow through, either being talked out of it by the police or not wanting to endure the embarrassment of having to testify against them or face them in court and/or the social stigma attached with being a victim of a sex crime. That somewhat exists in today's society, but not nearly to the same extent that it did 50-60 years ago.

But on the other hand, Brown did make some positive contributions to our society, including his work on civil rights issues and his crusade against gang violence, so at least to some degree, it balances out the human flaws he had. Certainly, his loved ones are worth our condolences.

Edit: I just came across a very good article about Jimmy Brown that I thought you folks would be interested in:

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/jim-brown/

Definitely a different time. I always liked Sean Connery, but he publicly said he was raised to believe it was ok to put your hands on a woman if she got out of line. He never changed his opinion even during a public interview. I remember watching films like The Quiet Man with John Wayne where it was considered comedy when he was slapping a woman to teach her a lesson.

Brown was raised during that time. I know it's hard to accept that people were raised in a lot of terrible ways in the past, but that's the way it was. A lot of men from that era were raised that it was acceptable to use physical force to keep women in line.

Seems absurd as a kid raised in the 80s as I was. But that was a different era of men and a different time here and abroad.

I can't fault Jim Brown for being raised like men of that time. He certainly wasn't alone being involved in such incidents. I know Muhammad Ali also had done such things as well. I'd bet if you could use a magic crystal ball to show what men and women do to each other, a whole lot of men and women would not withstand the scrutiny. Not sure many could.

That's why I just say R..I.P. to most folks. They finally to get lay down and see what lies in the Great Beyond. No more having to walk the world and manage all that comes with that good and bad.

[RiverDog]

Very true. And I wonder how Brown would have fared had he lived in the contemporary era. Back in the 50's-70's, women were much more reluctant to file a complaint or press charges than they are nowadays. They'd call the police, report a crime, then not follow through, either being talked out of it by the police or not wanting to endure the embarrassment of having to testify against them or face them in court and/or the social stigma attached with being a victim of a sex crime. That somewhat exists in today's society, but not nearly to the same extent that it did 50-60 years ago.

But on the other hand, Brown did make some positive contributions to our society, including his work on civil rights issues and his crusade against gang violence, so at least to some degree, it balances out the human flaws he had. Certainly, his loved ones are worth our condolences.

Edit: I just came across a very good article about Jimmy Brown that I thought you folks would be interested in:

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/jim-brown/

Definitely a different time. I always liked Sean Connery, but he publicly said he was raised to believe it was ok to put your hands on a woman if she got out of line. He never changed his opinion even during a public interview. I remember watching films like The Quiet Man with John Wayne where it was considered comedy when he was slapping a woman to teach her a lesson.

Brown was raised during that time. I know it's hard to accept that people were raised in a lot of terrible ways in the past, but that's the way it was. A lot of men from that era were raised that it was acceptable to use physical force to keep women in line.

Seems absurd as a kid raised in the 80s as I was. But that was a different era of men and a different time here and abroad.

I can't fault Jim Brown for being raised like men of that time. He certainly wasn't alone being involved in such incidents. I know Muhammad Ali also had done such things as well. I'd bet if you could use a magic crystal ball to show what men and women do to each other, a whole lot of men and women would not withstand the scrutiny. Not sure many could.

That's why I just say R..I.P. to most folks. They finally to get lay down and see what lies in the Great Beyond. No more having to walk the world and manage all that comes with that good and bad.

I don't completely agree with that. My dad, born in 1925, 11 years before Jimmy Brown, was a tough guy, an all state halfback in high school, ran the 100 yard dash in 10.1, 5' 11" 195 lbs with a 32" waist, and he never behaved anywhere close to what Brown was accused of. He drilled into me at a very early age that I was never to strike a woman even if she hit me first. Like all couples, mom and dad got into arguments, but never anything close to it turning physical. Nor do I recall any of my parent's friends having to deal with domestic violence, and I was born in 1954. So at least from a personal experience, I never witnessed any domestic violence until I was out of high school and learned of a classmate who regularly beat his girlfriend.

Unlike something like slavery, which was completely legal and morally acceptable behavior in the 18th century where our contemporary society has projected our 21st century standards onto men like Washington and Jefferson, striking a woman has always been illegal and morally unacceptable, or at least it was during Brown's heyday. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. The difference is that in the 50's-70's, domestic violence it was covered up and swept under the rug. Our society made female victims of DV feel like they were damaged goods, were reluctant to file charges.

I'm not excusing Brown's behavior simply due to his upbringing. It's an explanation for how he was, not a justification.

[Aseahawkfan]

I don't completely agree with that. My dad, born in 1925, 11 years before Jimmy Brown, was a tough guy, an all state halfback in high school, ran the 100 yard dash in 10.1, 5' 11" 195 lbs with a 32" waist, and he never behaved anywhere close to what Brown was accused of. He drilled into me at a very early age that I was never to strike a woman even if she hit me first. Like all couples, mom and dad got into arguments, but never anything close to it turning physical. Nor do I recall any of my parent's friends having to deal with domestic violence, and I was born in 1954. So at least from a personal experience, I never witnessed any domestic violence until I was out of high school and learned of a classmate who regularly beat his girlfriend.

Unlike something like slavery, which was completely legal and morally acceptable behavior in the 18th century where our contemporary society has projected our 21st century standards onto men like Washington and Jefferson, striking a woman has always been illegal and morally unacceptable, or at least it was during Brown's heyday. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. The difference is that in the 50's-70's, domestic violence it was covered up and swept under the rug. Our society made female victims of DV feel like they were damaged goods, were reluctant to file charges.

I'm not excusing Brown's behavior simply due to his upbringing. It's an explanation for how he was, not a justification.

I named some prominent men that also engaged in the behavior, though Connery was never accused that I know of. I listed a movie where an icon like John Wayne was shown striking a woman as a show of man putting a woman in her place for purposes of comedy. I listed another famous athlete Muhammad Ali who was involved in similar altercations.

Like you I never witnessed DV in my household and was taught never to hit women and I never heard of it in any of my relative's houses, but I heard what I heard and seen what I seen from public figures of that older generation. The cops and society as a whole did not seem to stigmatize DV as much in Brown's day. It's like drinking as well. We like to pretend that older generation was less prone to addiction, but they had a ton of alcoholics before it was diagnosed as alcoholism. Drug problems were more common than they appeared to be.

Brown grew up during a different time with different behavioral standards. The man's dead now. I don't see the point of judging him by modern behavioral standards when he obviously wasn't raised in that type of environment.

I'm glad behavioral standards have changed because some of the stuff that older generation believed in and was taught sounds insane when I listened to it.

[RiverDog]

I don't completely agree with that. My dad, born in 1925, 11 years before Jimmy Brown, was a tough guy, an all state halfback in high school, ran the 100 yard dash in 10.1, 5' 11" 195 lbs with a 32" waist, and he never behaved anywhere close to what Brown was accused of. He drilled into me at a very early age that I was never to strike a woman even if she hit me first. Like all couples, mom and dad got into arguments, but never anything close to it turning physical. Nor do I recall any of my parent's friends having to deal with domestic violence, and I was born in 1954. So at least from a personal experience, I never witnessed any domestic violence until I was out of high school and learned of a classmate who regularly beat his girlfriend.

Unlike something like slavery, which was completely legal and morally acceptable behavior in the 18th century where our contemporary society has projected our 21st century standards onto men like Washington and Jefferson, striking a woman has always been illegal and morally unacceptable, or at least it was during Brown's heyday. It was wrong then and it's wrong now. The difference is that in the 50's-70's, domestic violence it was covered up and swept under the rug. Our society made female victims of DV feel like they were damaged goods, were reluctant to file charges.

I'm not excusing Brown's behavior simply due to his upbringing. It's an explanation for how he was, not a justification.

I named some prominent men that also engaged in the behavior, though Connery was never accused that I know of. I listed a movie where an icon like John Wayne was shown striking a woman as a show of man putting a woman in her place for purposes of comedy. I listed another famous athlete Muhammad Ali who was involved in similar altercations.

Like you I never witnessed DV in my household and was taught never to hit women and I never heard of it in any of my relative's houses, but I heard what I heard and seen what I seen from public figures of that older generation. The cops and society as a whole did not seem to stigmatize DV as much in Brown's day. It's like drinking as well. We like to pretend that older generation was less prone to addiction, but they had a ton of alcoholics before it was diagnosed as alcoholism. Drug problems were more common than they appeared to be.

Brown grew up during a different time with different behavioral standards. The man's dead now. I don't see the point of judging him by modern behavioral standards when he obviously wasn't raised in that type of environment.

I'm glad behavioral standards have changed because some of the stuff that older generation believed in and was taught sounds insane when I listened to it.

I'm glad to hear that your upbringing was as decent as mine was.

I'm not judging Brown by today's standards. I'm not that much younger than he is. Hie's one generation ahead of me, a member of the "silent generation". I'm a baby boomer. I'm judging him on the standards I was raised on, which weren't that different from his. Wife beating was never acceptable. It's just that it didn't get reported or acted on prior to about 1970 when society began to change, with the women's lib movement, the ERA, etc. Take a look at the divorce rate. It jumped from 3.5/1K in 1970 to 5.1/1k in 1980, a nearly 70% increase. A lot of that can be attributed to women no longer putting up with their men abusing them. It's also when LE started getting more aggressive in their approach.

I don't want to go any further with this debate in the main forum, so I'll end my remarks on the subject. Bottom line is that I still believe that we should morn his passing. He had his flaws, but he wasn't the Devil.