Defense since 2017

[RiverDog]

Jamal Adams out of necessity as you put it was used to give some spark to our anemic pass rush which suffered early with our secondary providing leaky not sticky coverage...little opportunity for "coverage sacks" as a result. Good sticky man coverage can add 1 to 2 sec of QB hesitation...allowing our pass rush to at least threaten a QB to "move off his spot". 2020 also saw an attempt to sign Bruce Irvin to inject some pass rush energy but he suffered a serious injury before causing any impact in 2020.

I agree, there were several factors in our lack of QB pressure. It's been a problem for some time. But the root cause starts with the defensive line. We simply don't have the talent and haven't for some time.

As I've mentioned earlier, I've subscribed to PFF, and since we're on the topic, I took the time to do a little research on our defense, in particular, the defensive line. PFF has our defensive line ranked 30th out of 32 teams. Here's what they had to say about our DL:

30. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS

During the first round of the 2023 NFL Draft, the Seahawks had a chance to bolster their defensive line but elected to pick cornerback Devon Witherspoon instead.

While that represents an improvement for the Seattle secondary, the defensive line remains in a relatively poor position. Although the Seahawks have seven defensive linemen who played at least 250 snaps last season, only one of them ranked in the top 60 at his position in PFF grade.

Edge defender Uchenna Nwosu was easily the best player on the Seattle defensive line, as he picked up a PFF grade of 72.6 last season.

I'm not one to be critical of not taking a DL with our #5 overall. The best one available at the time was Jalen Carter, and for reasons we discussed to great length earlier, IMO we made the right decision to pass on him. I'm quite satisfied with the Witherspoon pick. But unless one of the newbies can rise to the occasion, we still have a big weak spot on the DL.

[tarlhawk]

I agree, there were several factors in our lack of QB pressure. It's been a problem for some time. But the root cause starts with the defensive line. We simply don't have the talent and haven't for some time.

As I've mentioned earlier, I've subscribed to PFF, and since we're on the topic, I took the time to do a little research on our defense, in particular, the defensive line. PFF has our defensive line ranked 30th out of 32 teams. Here's what they had to say about our DL:

30. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS

During the first round of the 2023 NFL Draft, the Seahawks had a chance to bolster their defensive line but elected to pick cornerback Devon Witherspoon instead.

While that represents an improvement for the Seattle secondary, the defensive line remains in a relatively poor position. Although the Seahawks have seven defensive linemen who played at least 250 snaps last season, only one of them ranked in the top 60 at his position in PFF grade.

Edge defender Uchenna Nwosu was easily the best player on the Seattle defensive line, as he picked up a PFF grade of 72.6 last season.

I'm not one to be critical of not taking a DL with our #5 overall. The best one available at the time was Jalen Carter, and for reasons we discussed to great length earlier, IMO we made the right decision to pass on him. I'm quite satisfied with the Witherspoon pick. But unless one of the newbies can rise to the occasion, we still have a big weak spot on the DL.

I allowed my PFF subscription to lapse just before the draft...I haven't been as impressed as much as curious when I paid up last year (and the one thing I liked using-the mock draft simulator...is free anyways so I bailed. The real problem with our current D-line is that the youth doesn't normally get enough meaningful snaps to impact any stat line as an individual but our edge defender group has an interesting current pairing of Uchenna and Darryl with a future pairing of Boye and Derick for a combined decent rotation that isn't quite on anyone's radar for speculation.

BT Jordan carries some respect outside of our own team who just hired him this year as our Pass Rush Specialist Coach...coaches often fly under the radar of those outside the team. Karl Scott has impressed already since we hired him last year to coach our secondary. Good young talent coming in...good coaching to nudge the best in their development. Witherspoon is noted for his sticky man coverage in addition to a very physical nature...sometimes such a corner can impact a D-line better than an individual D-line stud.

Part of me wanted Jalen Carter and the Eagles really benefited from his falling to them...but then I reasoned Jalen would have most impact at the 3T spot as a pass rusher and we already doled out good money to fill that 3T spot with Dre'Mont Jones...You don't pay that kind of money for a "rotation" guy...Jones is expected and no doubt wants to be the every down game wrecker we are hoping he'll become...so Spoon makes more sense in that perspective. The return of Wags even for a year will also impact our ability to get our run defense at least back to an even keel. Go Hawks

[RiverDog]

I agree, there were several factors in our lack of QB pressure. It's been a problem for some time. But the root cause starts with the defensive line. We simply don't have the talent and haven't for some time.

As I've mentioned earlier, I've subscribed to PFF, and since we're on the topic, I took the time to do a little research on our defense, in particular, the defensive line. PFF has our defensive line ranked 30th out of 32 teams. Here's what they had to say about our DL:

30. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS

During the first round of the 2023 NFL Draft, the Seahawks had a chance to bolster their defensive line but elected to pick cornerback Devon Witherspoon instead.

While that represents an improvement for the Seattle secondary, the defensive line remains in a relatively poor position. Although the Seahawks have seven defensive linemen who played at least 250 snaps last season, only one of them ranked in the top 60 at his position in PFF grade.

Edge defender Uchenna Nwosu was easily the best player on the Seattle defensive line, as he picked up a PFF grade of 72.6 last season.

I'm not one to be critical of not taking a DL with our #5 overall. The best one available at the time was Jalen Carter, and for reasons we discussed to great length earlier, IMO we made the right decision to pass on him. I'm quite satisfied with the Witherspoon pick. But unless one of the newbies can rise to the occasion, we still have a big weak spot on the DL.

I allowed my PFF subscription to lapse just before the draft...I haven't been as impressed as much as curious when I paid up last year (and the one thing I liked using-the mock draft simulator...is free anyways so I bailed. The real problem with our current D-line is that the youth doesn't normally get enough meaningful snaps to impact any stat line as an individual but our edge defender group has an interesting current pairing of Uchenna and Darryl with a future pairing of Boye and Derick for a combined decent rotation that isn't quite on anyone's radar for speculation.

BT Jordan carries some respect outside of our own team who just hired him this year as our Pass Rush Specialist Coach...coaches often fly under the radar of those outside the team. Karl Scott has impressed already since we hired him last year to coach our secondary. Good young talent coming in...good coaching to nudge the best in their development. Witherspoon is noted for his sticky man coverage in addition to a very physical nature...sometimes such a corner can impact a D-line better than an individual D-line stud.

Part of me wanted Jalen Carter and the Eagles really benefited from his falling to them...but then I reasoned Jalen would have most impact at the 3T spot as a pass rusher and we already doled out good money to fill that 3T spot with Dre'Mont Jones...You don't pay that kind of money for a "rotation" guy...Jones is expected and no doubt wants to be the every down game wrecker we are hoping he'll become...so Spoon makes more sense in that perspective. The return of Wags even for a year will also impact our ability to get our run defense at least back to an even keel. Go Hawks

This is the first time I've subscribed to PFF. I see it used all the time, on television broadcasts, commentary, etc., and I've heard that even teams will refer to them. They're pretty much the gold standard when it comes to evaluation and rankings of teams and players. If nothing else, it will help me get familiarized with other players around the league, especially positions like offensive linemen of whom are seldom discussed on conventional sports programs and publications.

I'm not even sure if I wanted to see us take Carter with our #20 overall. Knowing that he was a potential choice for what was going to be a top 10 pick, I watched him in the college football playoffs and was thoroughly underwhelmed. Then came all the stuff about his racing, his pro day, and so on, that reinforced the subjective first impression I got during the playoffs. He would have been an extremely risky pick. It will be a drama that I'm glad isn't ours.

I'm not so sure about Wags. Yes, he can still tackle, but he's clearly lost a step, makes more tackles downfield and doesn't fill holes like he used to. It's no coincidence that the Rams defense slid like they did and why they were so willing to part with him. And even in his last year with us, he wasn't getting very deep drops into the hook zones. Obviously, there's a lot of things that he brings to the table that don't show up on film or on the stat sheet, but I'm not sure how much he can contribute on game day and between the whistles. I wonder how much of his signing was due to his possible contributions and how much was sentimental, to let him retire as a Hawk. But on the other hand, he doesn't have to produce a lot to top how Cody Barton performed last year.

[NorthHawk]

The Seahawks seem to be trying to build this Defense the same way they did the LoB.
They started with the back end and then addressed the DL last. If you remember, the early drafts included ET, Sherm, Wags, and KJ. The DL was a mix of FA's and players left over from the previous regime like Mebane and Red Bryant.
They filled the holes with Avril and Bennett along with Chris Clemons.
We seem to be doing much the same with the 2 CBs and OLB Mafe and maybe someone this year. We also drafted a big Tackle much like Mebane was in Cameron Young.
What's missing at the moment are a couple of FA pickups, but the Cap space is a problem. Maybe next year will be better for that.

[tarlhawk]

I'm not so sure about Wags. Yes, he can still tackle, but he's clearly lost a step, makes more tackles downfield and doesn't fill holes like he used to. It's no coincidence that the Rams defense slid like they did and why they were so willing to part with him. And even in his last year with us, he wasn't getting very deep drops into the hook zones. Obviously, there's a lot of things that he brings to the table that don't show up on film or on the stat sheet, but I'm not sure how much he can contribute on game day and between the whistles. I wonder how much of his signing was due to his possible contributions and how much was sentimental, to let him retire as a Hawk. But on the other hand, he doesn't have to produce a lot to top how Cody Barton performed last year.

Ha ha just when I thought this was a "dead" post...You can't "tout" PFF as a respected resource for NFL content...then express doubt about Bobby when PFF said he was the best LB in the NFL last year as a Ram. His instincts coupled with very good skills for shedding would-be blockers makes him still an overcoming force of wills against an opponents rushing attack. He can be "exposed" in deeper underneath coverage on passing plays but we now have corners who don't need to rely on underneath LB bracketing to give sticky man coverage.

[RiverDog]

I'm not so sure about Wags. Yes, he can still tackle, but he's clearly lost a step, makes more tackles downfield and doesn't fill holes like he used to. It's no coincidence that the Rams defense slid like they did and why they were so willing to part with him. And even in his last year with us, he wasn't getting very deep drops into the hook zones. Obviously, there's a lot of things that he brings to the table that don't show up on film or on the stat sheet, but I'm not sure how much he can contribute on game day and between the whistles. I wonder how much of his signing was due to his possible contributions and how much was sentimental, to let him retire as a Hawk. But on the other hand, he doesn't have to produce a lot to top how Cody Barton performed last year.

Ha ha just when I thought this was a "dead" post...You can't "tout" PFF as a respected resource for NFL content...then express doubt about Bobby when PFF said he was the best LB in the NFL last year as a Ram. His instincts coupled with very good skills for shedding would-be blockers makes him still an overcoming force of wills against an opponents rushing attack. He can be "exposed" in deeper underneath coverage on passing plays but we now have corners who don't need to rely on underneath LB bracketing to give sticky man coverage.

You're right, PFF did have Bobby ranked #1 overall in their ratings, but, as Paul Harvey used to say, "stay tuned for the rest of the story."

PFF also made an analysis of the linebacker position as it applies to today's NFL:

In today's NFL, few positions have become as difficult to play as off-ball linebacker. Over the past decade, virtually every stage of the offensive evolution has increased stress on linebackers, putting them in a bind and asking them to account for multiple things on the same play.

The transition from college football to the NFL used to be smooth for linebackers, but even elite prospects can now struggle in Year 1. Even Micah Parsons — a Defensive Player of the Year candidate as a rookie — put up middling run-defense and tackling grades in his first year in Dallas.

Consequently, the list of consistently elite players is far shorter than for other positions, and there is much more volatility in this position group.

TIER 1: THE ELITE FEW

1. FRED WARNER, SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS
2. DARIUS LEONARD, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS
3. DEMARIO DAVIS, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS
4. ERIC KENDRICKS, MINNESOTA VIKINGS

The best linebackers in today’s league are elite coverage players, but they can also affect the game in other ways. Warner had a transformative effect on the 49ers defense when he became the starter. And even though he hasn’t quite been able to maintain an elite level of play every season, his impact on the field is obvious.

Leonard is another example of how hard it is to earn those elite PFF grades each season, but he is a turnover machine when he is at his best. Since 2020, the Colts linebacker has twice the number of forced fumbles of any other off-ball linebacker, and he has four interceptions and eight pass breakups over that time.

Kendricks is one of the game’s best coverage linebackers, able to consistently squeeze throwing lanes and make plays on the ball once it’s in the air. And Davis has been outstanding in all areas since moving to the New Orleans defense.

TIER 2: THE AGING ELITE

5. BOBBY WAGNER, LOS ANGELES RAMS
6. LAVONTE DAVID, TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS

One can make the case that both Wagner and David are still as good as it gets at the linebacker position despite getting up there in age, but each player is coming off a relative down year by their standards, which always brings up the looming specter of decline. David’s 72.3 overall PFF grade is the lowest mark he has posted in a single season since 2016, and Wagner’s 71.8 was his lowest since 2015.

While those grades aren’t poor, by any stretch, they are a notable step down from these players' excellent career baselines and some way short of their elite best. Wagner gets a new opportunity on a new team with a lot more talent around him this season, so there is good reason to suspect that his grade might bounce back. Meanwhile, David will have to get it there himself, given that the Bucs defense wasn’t exactly bereft of talent last season.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-linebacker ... onson-2022

While I'll admit that Wagner's PFF ranking is better than I thought it would be, the subsequent analysis of the position and comments about how they fit into today's NFL support my contention that he's a far cry from the linebacker he was earlier. He's not the missing link to our defense.

[tarlhawk]

Riv your comments on Bobby are close to the mark...age is always the enemy of elite athletes. Bobby is a great example (as was RW while here) of how an athlete has to focus on body and mind almost 24/7 to survive the rigor of an NFL season filled with over sized freak bodies colliding and falling on you just by participating. Bobby's age has shown in coverage liability... but schemes can aid identified weaknesses in a team effort. The impact he still has is a killer instinct for diagnosing on the field what running play is being called ...and based on dedicated experience and film study uses correct attack angles and pass rush counters to shed blocking efforts and "make the play".

Last year our defense was "bleeding" explosive runs and Wags can still be a factor in limiting such plays...especially on screens. His leadership still fires up whatever his team is...and in the best way...by example! Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

RiverDog wrote:
I'm not so sure about Wags. Yes, he can still tackle, but he's clearly lost a step, makes more tackles downfield and doesn't fill holes like he used to. It's no coincidence that the Rams defense slid like they did and why they were so willing to part with him. And even in his last year with us, he wasn't getting very deep drops into the hook zones. Obviously, there's a lot of things that he brings to the table that don't show up on film or on the stat sheet, but I'm not sure how much he can contribute on game day and between the whistles. I wonder how much of his signing was due to his possible contributions and how much was sentimental, to let him retire as a Hawk. But on the other hand, he doesn't have to produce a lot to top how Cody Barton performed last year.

He continued to pile up the tackles but it seems he is making a lot more 'business decisions' in his play. It might be a factor of being a step slower, but in the games I saw he was more hesitant than I had seen him be in the past.
He should contribute more than the others last year and with with Brooks on the shelf for what looks like a chunk of the season he will help. He might be here in part because we are trying to recapture the character of past years as much as his play at this point.

[RiverDog]

Riv your comments on Bobby are close to the mark...age is always the enemy of elite athletes. Bobby is a great example (as was RW while here) of how an athlete has to focus on body and mind almost 24/7 to survive the rigor of an NFL season filled with over sized freak bodies colliding and falling on you just by participating. Bobby's age has shown in coverage liability... but schemes can aid identified weaknesses in a team effort. The impact he still has is a killer instinct for diagnosing on the field what running play is being called ...and based on dedicated experience and film study uses correct attack angles and pass rush counters to shed blocking efforts and "make the play".

Last year our defense was "bleeding" explosive runs and Wags can still be a factor in limiting such plays...especially on screens. His leadership still fires up whatever his team is...and in the best way...by example! Go Hawks

Our linebacking corps, particularly the ILB position with Cody Barton playing in Wag's place, was a definite weakness last season, and it won't take much of an improvement to top what Barton gave us last season. But if I'm not mistaken, the Rams played a 4-3 last season as we had in the past when Wagner was with us, so it's going to be a completely different scheme for Bobby to adapt to. We're making a huge assumption if we think he's going to be the answer to our defensive woes.

There was a reason why we let Bobby go in 2022, most likely the same reason the Rams let him go this year.

[RiverDog]

He continued to pile up the tackles but it seems he is making a lot more 'business decisions' in his play. It might be a factor of being a step slower, but in the games I saw he was more hesitant than I had seen him be in the past.
He should contribute more than the others last year and with with Brooks on the shelf for what looks like a chunk of the season he will help. He might be here in part because we are trying to recapture the character of past years as much as his play at this point.

IMO it's more likely due to the last sentence in your post. Bobby is a first ballot HOF'er and unquestionably the best LB we've ever had, so I think it's more of Pete and John tipping their hat to him than it is an attempt at improving our defense. You don't build defenses around a 33 year old linebacker.

[tarlhawk]

..., so I think it's more of Pete and John tipping their hat to him than it is an attempt at improving our defense. You don't build defenses around a 33 year old linebacker.

Who said anything about Bobby's signing as an attempt to build a defense around? Wags allows the team to not "rush" Jordyn Brooks back during a serious injury recovery. His one year contract doesn't shout "Bobby will fix "this" and we can build a defense around him. His return has no effect on the pursuit of an off ball LB to pair with Brooks in the near future...just like the 1 year deal given Devin Bush. Wags can still give us an efficient off ball LB who is a strong steady tackler to limit explosive running plays. Its not an attempt...its an assurance of Wags impact on stopping the run. No one close to the team is shying away from knowing his coverage ability is a liability thanks to age...the defense can scheme around weaknesses.

[RiverDog]

..., so I think it's more of Pete and John tipping their hat to him than it is an attempt at improving our defense. You don't build defenses around a 33 year old linebacker.

Who said anything about Bobby's signing as an attempt to build a defense around? Wags allows the team to not "rush" Jordyn Brooks back during a serious injury recovery. His one year contract doesn't shout "Bobby will fix "this" and we can build a defense around him. His return has no effect on the pursuit of an off ball LB to pair with Brooks in the near future...just like the 1 year deal given Devin Bush. Wags can still give us an efficient off ball LB who is a strong steady tackler to limit explosive running plays. Its not an attempt...its an assurance of Wags impact on stopping the run. No one close to the team is shying away from knowing his coverage ability is a liability thanks to age...the defense can scheme around weaknesses.

No one in this thread said we were building around Bobby, nor did I say that anyone did. Since most of us consider our defense as a work in progress, I made the general statement that you don't build defenses around a 33 year old linebacker.

There are some things that Bobby can contribute, particularly in the locker room and on the practice field that at least partially justifies bring him back, but as far as game day is considered, I don't think he's going to have much of an impact. I feel that re-signing him is more of acknowledgement of Bobby's past than it is improving our team. They're giving him a chance to take a victory lap in what could be his final season.

[tarlhawk]

Partially justifies?? Are fans now of a mind to find "reasons" to justify a decision made by our team's GM to improve our team? Did KJ and Sherm get serious money doled out for a return and "locker room presence" ?? It's a fan/team mate "bonus" to have him possibly retire a Seahawk...but our GM doesn't play with the teams money...Bobby is still able to be considered an upgrade who can impact a game against the rush...the one year contract was a decent amount ...but low risk/no commitment that doesn't bind JS's ability to improve our team as we add pieces to blend in with "back to back" good drafts. If John had his eye on a LB from this last draft then someone else no doubt snapped him up while he focused on higher priorities.

[NorthHawk]

Over the years JS has wasted a lot of Cap space on backups that probably could have been had for less. But that's another discussion.
They put a big emphasis on character the last two drafts and combining with the Brooks injury and Barton leaving, the addition of one of the players with the best character fits for what Pete wants to build, adding him fits the direction they want to head. He may not be the player he once was, but he can set the tone for the others.

[MackStrongIsMyHero]

There weren't exactly a lot of FA options, and the Seahawks needed to reload everywhere. Even with the substantial draft capital of the last two years, they still couldn't get it all. Something had to give and it was largely at DT and LB.

Bobby is a known quantity who, as has been said, can help lead the defense this year and lend his experience to the locker room and the set the tone for the young guys. There's him, Bush, and Brooks. Then a few young, unproven guys. Given the situation, hopefully Bobby offers a steady level of performance within his capabilities at this point in his career where he helps more than he hurst. More upside than downside to this signing.

[Old but Slow]

Signing Dre'mont Jones was a good sign. Signing a high impact player in free agency, rather than 2 or 3 journeymen, makes the team better and is a better use of resources. Similarly is the signing of Julian Love. Those signings make the lesser signings, Jarran Reed, Devin Bush, and Bobby Wagner much more meaningful.

More help is need in the interior defensive line and in the linebackers, but the makings of a good defense are coming together. It will be interesting to see how Brooks plays after he comes back from injury. He showed great promise early, but did not play particularly well last year. If he can return to early form it could be a big positive.

[tarlhawk]

Much of the defensive improvement expected this year will be squarely on the shoulders of our coaching ...to scheme and play call based on the strengths and weaknesses of our "new" pieces assembled from our free agency/draft.

Clint Hurtt continues calling the shots in only his 2nd year as Defensive Coordinator (lost his trusted advisor Sean Desai to an NFC rival). BT Jordan was hired to boost our pass rush efforts using our front seven mix of rookies and young linemen.

Karl Scott has elevated our secondary coverage and has been rewarded with a new coaching position (Defensive Passing Game Coordinator / Defensive Backs). He is joined by the recent hiring of Roy Anderson (15 years of experience) as secondary coach as well as the return of his own assistant DB coach Deshawn Shead. We've gone from a disrespected mess of unknowns in 2020 to vastly improved man coverage and depth at Safety AND Corners. Go Hawks

[NorthHawk]

Signing Dre'mont Jones was a good sign. Signing a high impact player in free agency, rather than 2 or 3 journeymen, makes the team better and is a better use of resources. Similarly is the signing of Julian Love. Those signings make the lesser signings, Jarran Reed, Devin Bush, and Bobby Wagner much more meaningful.

More help is need in the interior defensive line and in the linebackers, but the makings of a good defense are coming together. It will be interesting to see how Brooks plays after he comes back from injury. He showed great promise early, but did not play particularly well last year. If he can return to early form it could be a big positive.

As I said above, they are using the same basic template as they did when creating the LOB. FA's and a draft choice here and there along the DL, but build the Secondary first through the draft. As Mack said, since they didn't take LB in the last 2 drafts, it's probable that they will try to do so in 2024.

[NorthHawk]

Since it's pretty dull news wise in the NFL and Seahawk land in particular, here is a podcast from Richard Sherman where at the end he mentions the Defense going back to the old scheme.
It's a good talk with Geno so if you have the time it's worth it to hear it all, but if you're interested in the specific comment, it's near the end at around the 20 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKqux4f ... oZ&index=8